Posted: 7/31/2009 9:43:54 AM EDT
I'm about to get into trouble. 
I have heard from many different faiths/sects/religions that (paraphrasing) "I (or my group) is persecuted for my (our) beliefs, therefore it adds validity to it, and makes it more true." I would submit that that line of thinking is dangerous. For example, if a Christian says that about Christians in China, then what about the Buddhist Monks that are killed and tortured for THEIR beliefs. Does that make what the Buddhists believe just as true? Or, what about the Mormons that fled after many were killed (and worse) before they moved further west purely for their belief. Does that make the LDS faith less true than the Branch Davidians (David Koresh, Waco) who were all killed for what they believed? I guess what I'm trying to say is that persecution does NOT equal Truth. But so many claim it does, I guess to try to validate a belief system. Disclaimer- Any mention of any specific groups above is not an attempt to agree or discredit any of them. They were just the ones that came to my puny little mind first.
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Would it influence your conclusion if the holy book(s) of any particular belief systems said that persecution would be part and parcel of belief? [No sarcasm intended.]
One of the things that I always come back to in my own weak moments of doubt is that there are topics on which the Bible explicitly states certain things will happen in addition to the "do this, do that" verbage. To my knowledge, and I'll admit that it is far short of the breadth and depth needed to make this conclusion without a doubt, the Bible is the only book that does this sort of thing. But I agree, persecution is not akin to truth. |
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One belief being true does not negate the others from being true as well. Unless those beliefs are opposite of each other. Than they both can't be true. One has to be wrong (or both can be). The one thing they CANNOT be, is both right. Brings to mind an interesting question: How many religious denominations or sects are there? |
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One belief being true does not negate the others from being true as well. Unless those beliefs are opposite of each other. Than they both can't be true. One has to be wrong (or both can be). The one thing they CANNOT be, is both right. Brings to mind an interesting question: How many religious denominations or sects are there? At least dozens of major Christian ones. I have no idea how many "sects" of Buddhists, Hindu, Islam there are. Of course, with most of the Christian ones, the differences are fairly minor, but almost all point exactly the same way toward salvation (Jesus being God, and taking a punishment that we deserved, as long as we believe and accept that). I wish people would just simply let go of some of those minor things, but human nature being what it is, they don't. (Including me). |
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One belief being true does not negate the others from being true as well. Unless those beliefs are opposite of each other. Than they both can't be true. One has to be wrong (or both can be). The one thing they CANNOT be, is both right. That may be true in the earthly world, but I don't think that is the case with the spiritual or religious world. |
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One belief being true does not negate the others from being true as well. Unless those beliefs are opposite of each other. Than they both can't be true. One has to be wrong (or both can be). The one thing they CANNOT be, is both right. That may be true in the earthly world, but I don't think that is the case with the spiritual or religious world. Sure it is. Jesus said He was the only way to Heaven. Other Religions say that THEY are the only way. Still others say that ANY way is fine. Obviously, somebody is wrong. |
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One belief being true does not negate the others from being true as well.
I've been saying that for over 50 years. All religions are equally true. I had never thought about it like that........that all religions are equally true......they would certainly have to be for the people that believed in them, to believe in them. The big question though, and absolutely THE BIG QUESTION......is........which one is 'true' to the almighty God? |
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One belief being true does not negate the others from being true as well.
I've been saying that for over 50 years. All religions are equally true. I had never thought about it like that........that all religions are equally true......they would certainly have to be for the people that believed in them, to believe in them. The big question though, and absolutely THE BIG QUESTION......is........which one is 'true' to the almighty God? Which one is true? Let's see. . . From Joseph Smith's first vision: In accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally.
After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction. Image of Joseph Smith in the Sacred Grove looking up into a bright light But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction––not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being––just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me. It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other––"This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!" My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)––and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof." He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,104-1-3-4,00.html This led to the restoration and founding of mormonism, the one true church on the face of the Earth. Pretty clear that they can't all be true, can they? |
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Quoted: I guess what I'm trying to say is that persecution does NOT equal Truth. But so many claim it does, I guess to try to validate a belief system. I agree. Although I know many claim persecution and oppression, I don't know any who claim that means they have the truth..... |
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Persecution is almost a universal human experience. So the fact that it's happening isn't so shocking or unique. The real usefulness it supplies, is "proving" or "testing" someone's belief.
For example, someone who endures persecution rather than change their opinion can be said to REALLY believe it. Most people are followers. That's just human nature. Most therefore are not "martyr" material. They go along to get along. They believe because everyone ELSE believes. On the one hand this is distressing - to those who are 'true believers'. On the other hand, since this is universal it's comforting to know that the majority party in power that is making life miserable for the minority is made up of a handful of 'true believers' on top, and a boat load of followers who are going through the motions out of inertia more than personal conviction. Take Iraq for example. How many bloodthirsty Muslims live there who will willingly blow up their neighbor for the 'crime' of being of a different sect? Vs. Muslims who are just as happy to marry into a different clan and accept their difference with a grain of salt because they genuinely love the other person? I'd hazard a guess that most Iraqis are fine with each other and only a minority - albeit powerful and influential - are of the "all or nothing" mindset. In Ireland it was a relatively small minority who were involved with the IRA (which was why it was hard for the British to infiltrate it) whereas most Catholics might know of someone who 'might be' involved, but weren't directly involved or supportive. Ditto on the Protestant side. Towards the end of the 'troubles' 80% of the population just wanted peace but the 10% on either side who were personally involved were able to keep the bombs and shootings going. Both Catholics and Protestant civilians got killed, both sides' victims were - for the most part - innocent bystanders who died "for their faith" or ethnicity, but not quite as 'martyrs' since they really had no 'choice', no "renounce your faith or die" option. Sort of hard to 'witness' for your faith when you have no choice or chance.... Now, it's unlikely that BOTH SIDES were right. It's possible BOTH were wrong! But persecution didn't in and of itself prove anything about who was right(eous). In this country we have Liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans. The ideological difference between the two (or 4 depending on how you grade them) is stark. But MOST voters who vote Democrat or Republican aren't ideological junkies. If you ask them what motivates them, most won't be able to articulate with much detail WHY those positions are better than the other side....other than to repeat slogans, bumper stickers, etc. "No blood for Oil...but abortion is just fine" or "No new taxes....but more government goodies is great!" 
Precisely BECAUSE "most people" don't know or can't describe intellectually what or why they believe or belong to the group they do, it ought to give any 'true believer' reason to hope in the possibility that persuasion (rather than force) can indeed win in the end.... we're not dealing with a human race of irredeemably stubborn folk who just need 'killin'. We at most face groups with a sizable number but still a minority of 'true believers' who won't surrender but can be muzzled, and majorities who can be persuaded to come around to our point of view if the proper methodology is employed (carrot, stick, enticement, subtle or overt PR...) And thank God for this! Most people you meet are NOT grave threats to your life. Not here, not anywhere. |
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One belief being true does not negate the others from being true as well.
I've been saying that for over 50 years. All religions are equally true. I had never thought about it like that........that all religions are equally true......they would certainly have to be for the people that believed in them, to believe in them. The big question though, and absolutely THE BIG QUESTION......is........which one is 'true' to the almighty God? Which one is true? Let's see. . . From Joseph Smith's first vision: In accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally.
After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction. Image of Joseph Smith in the Sacred Grove looking up into a bright light But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction––not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being––just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me. It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other––"This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!" My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)––and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof." He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,104-1-3-4,00.html This led to the restoration and founding of mormonism, the one true church on the face of the Earth. Pretty clear that they can't all be true, can they? That would depend on truth for the sake of Itself. |
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Speaking of truth . . . .
Consider the following: Can a person see God? There is perhaps no more frequently misquoted verse in all the Bible than John 1:18. "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." Many will cite this scripture as proof that Joseph Smith, the Prophet of the Restoration could not have seen God, as Mormons believe. I've had this scripture pointed out to me by sincere folks who had no clue that the Bible contains myriad examples of mortals seeing God. They usually get this scripture from their minister who was taught it in his seminary training. Taking a look at the Bible as a whole, you'll see that God has revealed himself numerous times to mortals. It's also clear that God's intent is that the humble, meek and pure will see his face, not only in the next life, but in this one as well. Genesis 32: 30 – I have seen God face to face. Exodus 3: 6 – Moses...was afraid to look upon God Exodus 19: 11 – Lord will come down in the sight of all the people. Exodus 19: 21 – charge the people, lest they break through unto the Lord to gaze. Exodus 24: 11 – ...nobles of the children of Israel...saw God. Exodus 33: 11 – Lord spake unto Moses face to face. Numbers 12: 8 – With him will I speak mouth to mouth. Deuteronomy 34: 10 – Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face. Judges 13: 22 – We shall surely die, because we have seen God. 1 Kings 11: 9 – Lord...had appeared unto him twice. Isaiah 6: 5 – mine eyes have seen...the Lord. Matthew 11: 27 – Father...to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. John 14: 18 – not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. John 14: 21 – I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Acts 7: 56 – I see...the Son of man standing on the right hand. Hebrews 12: 14 – holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. 1 John 3: 2 – we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Revelation 1: 17 – when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. Revelation 22: 4 – they shall see his face. I might have listed even more, but these are very clear and require no interpretation of events. These references testify that, if a person is filled with the Holy Ghost, the Lord can appear before him and manifest himself in person. Without the influence and power of the Holy Ghost, one could not abide the Divine glory. This is the key. The oft-misquoted scripture above is clarified by John himself in chapter 6 of his Gospel, where it is written: "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father." (John 6:46) Thus, the overall message of this list of scriptures is that a person can see God if he is "of God" and thus has the gift of the Holy Ghost to quicken him in the Divine presence. Joseph Smith is a witness that can be added to those above who has seen God. After seeing Jesus Christ in the Kirtland, Ohio temple on April 3, 1836, he testified: "And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives! For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father— "(Doctrine and Covenants 76:22-23) The promise to those who accept Jesus Christ is that he will send us the Holy Ghost, known as The Comforter. If we remain faithful, it is his desire to manifest himself unto each of us personally. John 14: 21, 23 says: "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him... If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." It doesn't say that if we believe in Jesus, we'll see him when we die. It says that if we have and keep the commandments in faith, he will manifest himself unto us. If we will love him and keep his words, the Father and Jesus will come to us and make their abode with us. This doesn't mean dying and going to heaven. Like Moses, who sought to bring Israel into God's presence, the Good Shepherd seeks to bring us into the presence of his Father. Those who seek to teach that no man has seen or can see God defy the promises of Jesus Christ himself and seek to turn believers away from that which God desires to give. I urge the reader to search the scriptures above and to seek the God of the Bible, who truly is a God of revelation. By Greg West - www.examiner.com |
| All verses that I have given much thought about. This is just my opinion now.....but I think that no "human" has ever seen God as He "truly is" in whatever appearance or form that may be. I think it is just so beyond us. And, like some of the verses appear to indicate......it would kill us dead at the complete and true site of Him. However, I do believe that God presents Himself to humans in whatever form He feels they may be able to withstand, or may need at any particular moment in their lives. |
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All verses that I have given much thought about. This is just my opinion now.....but I think that no "human" has ever seen God as He "truly is" in whatever appearance or form that may be. I think it is just so beyond us. And, like some of the verses appear to indicate......it would kill us dead at the complete and true site of Him. However, I do believe that God presents Himself to humans in whatever form He feels they may be able to withstand, or may need at any particular moment in their lives. Junbuggg, I appreciate what you have said. In no way do I want to appear to degrade what you have said, but I would like to offer up a differing point of view. I don't think it is "so beyond us" at all. The Bible stated in the preceding verses that God appeared to man. God has been seen, if we believe The Bible, "face to face". It truly does not get ANY clearer than that. We are created in the "image and likeness" of God. It doesn't get ANY clearer than that. Cain and Abel were in the "image and likeness" of their father. Again, a simple concept. God's doctrine and/or gospel is simple. The only mysteries that there are exist because we try to see the way God truly is through eyes that are of the world and understand as the world teaches. When Peter, James, and John were escorted to the mountain top . . . . they heard The Father speak to them saying, "this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased". A cloud had descended around them, but I'm sure that these three actually SAW the Father and heard many things from Him that they did not write down for others to read.(Just as Moses, Noah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, all all the others did.) They were personal things that were to help them and Jesus gave them the authority to lead His church as he was shortly thereafter killed. How many times does the Father have to announce His Son to mankind, and how many times does Jesus have to state that he and the Father are two seperate beings for the world to believe THEM? The fact of who the Father and Son ARE is paramount to all other understanding. The first of the ten commandments makes this clear. If we do not understand WHO it is we are to worship . . . . . our worship is pointless. Are we not then worshipping "another God before Him"?!!!! The doctrines of men entered the church the moment Jesus died. All of Paul's letters to the churches were EACH ONE a repremand to the churches to stop teaching false doctrines. The greatest travisty perpetrated by Satan is the teaching that the Father and the Son are one personage, entity,etc. This belief alone has kept more people from knowing TRUTH than anyother. If we don't know what we are worshipping, we certainly cannot come to know, love, and obey what we do not understand. Any source that tries to make God more difficult to understand by defining Him with creeds and councils of men . . . . is NOT doctrine that comes from the simple fountain of truth that stood before Pontious Pilot and stated simply who He was and what his purpose for being there was. All TRUTH is obtained precept by precept. The gospel of Father is a mystery when we have yet to truly understand WHOM or WHAT he is. |
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Not so fast.... if the Church fell into apostasy after the death of the last apostle then we can't even be sure that the New Testament is authentic inasmuch as the canon of scripture was not decided until the mid-300's... so for the doctrine of total apostasy to be true, it puts into question the ENTIRE story of Jesus in the first place, because without the Church NO ONE would know who Jesus was, did, or what he taught the world.
The idea that the whole church fell into apostasy then is one of those 'a prioris' that Mormons HAVE to believe in so as to clear the decks for Joe Smith's assertions to be believable....but then, it's a self-contradictory belief because if it was true, then the Gospels themselves would be questionable. This is why the Christian church did not clam Jews were "totally depraved" since Abraham or that their scriptures weren't truly inspired.... inasmuch to claim such would remove the very premise of Jesus' truth claims. I don't want to get into Mormon bashing, but come on, ANYONE can claim to have seen an angel who told them to start a brand new religion. AND anyone preaching that every one else is wrong, is more than likely to be persecuted. That doesn't prove anything other than minority status. As for endurance....well, so far it's been what, 150 years or so? It took mainline Protestantism 500 to implode and wander off the reservation. Islam has been around since 633 and it's going strong. So truth claims, persecution, and longevity alone don't prove much. (which is why Catholicism - and Judaeism don't rest themselves on these things....) |
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Not so fast.... if the Church fell into apostasy after the death of the last apostle then we can't even be sure that the New Testament is authentic inasmuch as the canon of scripture was not decided until the mid-300's... so for the doctrine of total apostasy to be true, it puts into question the ENTIRE story of Jesus in the first place, because without the Church NO ONE would know who Jesus was, did, or what he taught the world. The idea that the whole church fell into apostasy then is one of those 'a prioris' that Mormons HAVE to believe in so as to clear the decks for Joe Smith's assertions to be believable....but then, it's a self-contradictory belief because if it was true, then the Gospels themselves would be questionable. This is why the Christian church did not clam Jews were "totally depraved" since Abraham or that their scriptures weren't truly inspired.... inasmuch to claim such would remove the very premise of Jesus' truth claims. I don't want to get into Mormon bashing, but come on, ANYONE can claim to have seen an angel who told them to start a brand new religion. AND anyone preaching that every one else is wrong, is more than likely to be persecuted. That doesn't prove anything other than minority status. As for endurance....well, so far it's been what, 150 years or so? It took mainline Protestantism 500 to implode and wander off the reservation. Islam has been around since 633 and it's going strong. So truth claims, persecution, and longevity alone don't prove much. (which is why Catholicism - and Judaeism don't rest themselves on these things....) Once again . . . . If what is written in the Bible is correct . . . . . Each letter written by Paul was to a church(group of people) that were teaching doctrine in error. A quick look in a Websters Dictionary defines apostasy and that is exactly what was taking place when half of what is now called The New Testament was written. I'm not claiming anything. I am pointing out historical fact. It is also interesting how in the Bible itself is written of the falling away of true doctrine. We can either believe what is writtewn in the book, or not. Reguardless of any "Joe Smith" or anyone else. As far as longevity proving anything . . . . Popularity has never been a measuring stick for truth. |
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The LORD answered Moses,''I will do this very thing you have asked, for you have found favor in My sight, and I know you by name.Then Moses said, ''Please let me see Your glory.'' He said,''I will cause My goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim the name Yahweh before you.
I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.'' But He answered,'' You cannot see My face for no one can see Me and live.'' ''The LORD said,''Here is a place near Me. You are to stand on the rock, and when My glory passes by, I will put you in the crevice of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by, I will take My hand away, and you will see My back, but My face will not be seen.'' Exodus/33/17-22/ |
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The LORD answered Moses,''I will do this very thing you have asked, for you have found favor in My sight, and I know you by name.Then Moses said, ''Please let me see Your glory.'' He said,''I will cause My goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim the name Yahweh before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.'' But He answered,'' You cannot see My face for no one can see Me and live.'' ''The LORD said,''Here is a place near Me. You are to stand on the rock, and when My glory passes by, I will put you in the crevice of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by, I will take My hand away, and you will see My back, but My face will not be seen.'' Exodus/33/17-22/ And yet Moses wrote . . . "... I have seen God face to face..." (Genesis 32:30) So which Moses is correct? He wrote both books. The other 18 scriptures listed tell us that God HAS appeared to people. God has shown through these scriptures that He is a PERSON, not a cloud or an idea, etc. He is a person because these people have seen him. One would not write that they spoke to someone "face to face" with a mystery. Now, why do we think it was called the "Mount of Transfiguration"? Man(humans in their temporal state) cannot stand in the presence of God and live. Thus Peter, James , John, and even Jesus had to be tranfigured to be able to be in the presence of God. |
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Persecution = fear( real or perceived). I would agree that sometimes, yes, it is just a feeling. Sometimes it's more tangible than just fear. Fear is an emotion, and those aren't always accurate. I guess I'm speaking of the more tangible types of persecution, death, being fired, beaten, etc..., not just the fear of those things. So, maybe it's both. |
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Persecution = fear( real or perceived). I would agree that sometimes, yes, it is just a feeling. Sometimes it's more tangible than just fear. Fear is an emotion, and those aren't always accurate. I guess I'm speaking of the more tangible types of persecution, death, being fired, beaten, etc..., not just the fear of those things. So, maybe it's both. I would agree that persecution can be both tangible actions as well as perceived intentions. Ask the people who received faux-anthrax letters at LDS Temples in California and Utah, or the Knights of Columbus in Connecticut if they were persecuted. What about those who contributed to California's Prop. 8 and now their name and location are published for people to harrass them. In its more extreme forms, persecution takes a form much like terrorism in that it seeks to instill fear. Fortunately, on this site, we mostly just have the occasional dogpile or internet fist fight. Edited for spelling |
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...snip Fortunately, on this site, we mostly just have the occasional dogpile or internet fist fight. I have no idea what you are talking about... 
 Ok let me see if I can translate: =''The power of Arfcom compels you!''!
=''Don't bother us we are talking!''
=''He goes to my church now!"
=''Dude, where's our bikes!''
=''Check out my cool new angel wings,I can fly!''
= ''Their not going to get away with this one..........no sir!''
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I agree that persecution itself does not = truth. On the other hand, The Lord's people do seem to find themselves "in the crosshairs" alot, so to speak, from Old Testament times onward. Agreed. See my above post. Do this experiment. In a random group of people, mention something about the teachings of Buddha. Or mention something about the teachings of Hindus or Wiccans. You probably won't get a lot of response from people one way or another. You could probably even talk about god in a generic sense and not cause a stir. Try to say something about Jesus Christ to the same group of people and see what reaction you get. |
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Quoted: Quoted: One belief being true does not negate the others from being true as well. I've been saying that for over 50 years. All religions are equally true. I had never thought about it like that........that all religions are equally true......they would certainly have to be for the people that believed in them, to believe in them. The big question though, and absolutely THE BIG QUESTION......is........which one is 'true' to the almighty God? Maybe it doesn't matter to the 'true' God? Perhaps adherence to any reasonable moral code (think Boondock saints) and striving to meet the other obligations of your individual religion is good enough for whatever is out there? |
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Quoted: This led to the restoration and founding of mormonism, the one true church on the face of the Earth. Pretty clear that they can't all be true, can they? No, that tell us there have always been individuals who claim to have the only way. That doesn't mean they were right. God might have other ideas. |
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Quoted: Quoted: I guess what I'm trying to say is that persecution does NOT equal Truth. But so many claim it does, I guess to try to validate a belief system. I agree. Although I know many claim persecution and oppression, I don't know any who claim that means they have the truth..... I've seen it used that way in an apologetics sense, usually to charges that Christianity is false. "Why would so many Christians endure torture to remain true to their faith, if it was simply a cult and had no real truth behind it?" the normal rebuttal to that is as the OP said "so what about the Branch Davidians?" |
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This led to the restoration and founding of mormonism, the one true church on the face of the Earth. Pretty clear that they can't all be true, can they? No, that tell us there have always been individuals who claim to have the only way. That doesn't mean they were right. God might have other ideas. You must not spend much time here. My statement was very tongue in cheek. 
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Persecution = fear( real or perceived). I would agree that sometimes, yes, it is just a feeling. Sometimes it's more tangible than just fear. Fear is an emotion, and those aren't always accurate. I guess I'm speaking of the more tangible types of persecution, death, being fired, beaten, etc..., not just the fear of those things. So, maybe it's both. I was referring to the persecutor having fear, not the persecuted. Although I'm sure it goes both ways. People fear what they don't understand. They feel threatened and respond. |
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Who said any religeon is entirely false?
ALL religeons contain some truth, and yes i believe persecution of ANY faith is a confirmation that they have some eternal truth given by a higher power...........OTHERWISE why would Satan direct persecution at them in the first place? If he wasn't afraid of the varying amounts of truth in those faiths, he would not bother as it would behoove him to let them preach entirely false doctrines, but sine no religeon is entirely false he must attack them to accomplish his mission....complete failure of souls to do what god expects them to do leading them to him instead. Think about this, the only things you see that do not face persecution and are actually prospering are the hedonistic movements that promote against a moral existence.....Planned Parenthood, Gay rights, Political movements that promote the abscence of Free Agency and self determination. |
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Who said any religeon is entirely false? ALL religeons contain some truth, and yes i believe persecution of ANY faith is a confirmation that they have some eternal truth given by a higher power...........OTHERWISE why would Satan direct persecution at them in the first place? If he wasn't afraid of the varying amounts of truth in those faiths, he would not bother as it would behoove him to let them preach entirely false doctrines, but sine no religeon is entirely false he must attack them to accomplish his mission....complete failure of souls to do what god expects them to do leading them to him instead. Think about this, the only things you see that do not face persecution and are actually prospering are the hedonistic movements that promote against a moral existence.....Planned Parenthood, Gay rights, Political movements that promote the abscence of Free Agency and self determination. There is only one truth. An effective tool that Satan uses against man and was principle to his falling, is mixing truth with lies with a smooth and deceiving tongue. Satan does not persecute false religion. God does not bless any man or orginization who loves and practices lying, deceiving others. Varying amounts of truth mixed with gall are false measures on false scales unto the Lord of Hosts. Satan sets up the proud and haughty to lead them away from God's protection. There he cuts the weak away from the flock of the rebellious toward God like a lion or a starving jackal. The ones who are in allegence to Satan with the knowledge of their master and follow him, will also perish at a time when they are of no further use to the advancement of evil through lawless actions. There is no honor or integrity among thieves, only God's final justice. Fear this. |
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SAE, read my post more carefully...I said all religeons contain some truth, I stand by that statement...This is not the same as saying a lot of faiths don't also preach a lot of falsehood.
I know what i know to be the truth, not saying all agree with me about that point in fact or there would not be diffrent denominations or entire religeons if everybody accepted the same thing as truth. To me Truth is something cannot be proven to be false and has the answers to my questions without contradicting itself. For me thats LDS, I have NEVER found a topic that i could not either find myself or with help, i have never just been told "It's a Mystery!" like some people of the cloth have told me when i asked them if they had a answer. "It's A Mystery!" is the worng answer for me, god has absolutley NO reason to give us any mysteries only knowledge. However, since all religeon is based on faith...NOBODY CAN PROVIDE SOLID EVIDENCE THEY HAVE THE ONLY TRUTH. This is why we have to ask for truth to be revealed personally to us. |
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It is confusing now, but according to the bible there is one coming who will make it simple.
Either you worship him or lose your head.
––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––- Rev 13:12- He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. Rev 13:13- And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men. Rev 13:14- Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. Rev 13:15- He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. Rev 13:16- He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, Rev 13:17- so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. |