Posted: 11/23/2008 4:40:33 PM EDT
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I need some help. My wife will be getting her first handgun and CWP very soon and the issue of taking a life in self defense as far as in the eyes of Christ has came up. If there is anyone that can give me some scriptures to read and cite or some other info this would be great. I have a few people at church that carry other than myself that I will ask as well but I know I can count on you guys. Thanks in advance... |
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Man, I have often pondered about this very issue. Is it ever right to shoot another human being? What would Christ have done? Here is where I'm at:
-Christ tells the apostles to go ahead a buy a sword and a cloak...its a rough world out there you need to protect yourself from wolves and brigands. I don't believe it is right to use deadly force to resist religious persecution, as there is no biblical example of this; -You are called to love your family and neighbors....it can't be loving them to sit back and watch your daughter be raped; -Deadly force really must be the absolute last alternative to resolve a hostile situation. This is a tough call and it is tough to reconcile the love of Christ with the use of deadly force. You can argue this the other way to with sound biblical reasoning. |
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I don't understand your post. Your right to defend yourself comes from the fact that bad men and animals live in this world and they want to kill you, or worse.
As far as looking to Christ for the answer goes, you will get mixed signals. The Old Testament is full of God commanding the Israelites to uterly destroy certain nations, while Moses is punished by God for killing an Egyption. In the New Testament Jesus speaks of selling your robe to buy a sword for self defense, but also tells his men to submit to foreign taxation, and to turn the other cheek. To top it all of Jesus was killed by his enemies, after making no atempt to defend himself, or fleeing to fight another day. |
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Quoted:
I don't understand your post. Your right to defend yourself comes from the fact that bad men and animals live in this world and they want to kill you, or worse. As far as looking to Christ for the answer goes, you will get mixed signals. The Old Testament is full of God commanding the Israelites to uterly destroy certain nations, while Moses is punished by God for killing an Egyption. In the New Testament Jesus speaks of selling your robe to buy a sword for self defense, but also tells his men to submit to foreign taxation, and to turn the other cheek. To top it all of Jesus was killed by his enemies, after making no atempt to defend himself, or fleeing to fight another day. My post is not about my personal feelings I have no problem with taking a life in defense of others or myself. With that being said the question was asked to me about what the Bible has to say on the subject and I was not able to answer. I think that it's time to be prepared with answers to these questions and many more if we want to retain our 2nd amendment rights without having to exercise those rights :) |
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it's a sin to murder. killing someone to defend your life or family is not a problem.
my mom struggled with the same question. she aksed me about getting her ccw a few years ago. my first question to her was "can you kill a person" she told me no, i told her to buy some pepper spray and let me know if she changes her mind. a year or so later she called and said she could do it. someone she knew had a bad run in with a bad person and it woke her up. she is religious to the extreme. mike ps.... moving this to the religion forum for serious answers |
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Quoted:
I don't understand your post. Your right to defend yourself comes from the fact that bad men and animals live in this world and they want to kill you, or worse. As far as looking to Christ for the answer goes, you will get mixed signals. The Old Testament is full of God commanding the Israelites to uterly destroy certain nations, while Moses is punished by God for killing an Egyption. In the New Testament Jesus speaks of selling your robe to buy a sword for self defense, but also tells his men to submit to foreign taxation, and to turn the other cheek. To top it all of Jesus was killed by his enemies, after making no atempt to defend himself, or fleeing to fight another day. If you are a Christian, you MUST believe that this earth is temporary while your soul and heaven is immortal. Your job is not to stay on this earth for as long as possible, rather, to accept God's will and leave it when he creates circumstances that cause your demise. Your reward for believing the word of God will be eternity in heaven. Now some here will say, "but could you sit by and watch your daughter raped and murdered?" You have to ask yourself the question: will she be better off in heaven and it is God's will? If you deny it is God's will, then you have to ask yourself if God has tested you and you failed his test. |
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Quoted:
I don't understand your post. Your right to defend yourself comes from the fact that bad men and animals live in this world and they want to kill you, or worse. As far as looking to Christ for the answer goes, you will get mixed signals. The Old Testament is full of God commanding the Israelites to uterly destroy certain nations, while Moses is punished by God for killing an Egyption. In the New Testament Jesus speaks of selling your robe to buy a sword for self defense, but also tells his men to submit to foreign taxation, and to turn the other cheek. To top it all of Jesus was killed by his enemies, after making no atempt to defend himself, or fleeing to fight another day. If you are a Christian, you MUST believe that this earth is temporary while your soul and heaven is immortal. Your job is not to stay on this earth for as long as possible, rather, to accept God's will and leave it when he creates circumstances that cause your demise. Your reward for believing the word of God will be eternity in heaven. Now some here will say, "but could you sit by and watch your daughter raped and murdered?" You have to ask yourself the question: will she be better off in heaven and it is God's will? If you deny it is God's will, then you have to ask yourself if God has tested you and you failed his test. so by your post you should never defend your family if a BG breaks in and decides to hack them up. 
perhaps god was putting you in the position to remove evil from this world. to sit back allow someone to die at the hands of evil when you have the means to prevent it is a lunacy. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't understand your post. Your right to defend yourself comes from the fact that bad men and animals live in this world and they want to kill you, or worse. As far as looking to Christ for the answer goes, you will get mixed signals. The Old Testament is full of God commanding the Israelites to uterly destroy certain nations, while Moses is punished by God for killing an Egyption. In the New Testament Jesus speaks of selling your robe to buy a sword for self defense, but also tells his men to submit to foreign taxation, and to turn the other cheek. To top it all of Jesus was killed by his enemies, after making no atempt to defend himself, or fleeing to fight another day. My post is not about my personal feelings I have no problem with taking a life in defense of others or myself. With that being said the question was asked to me about what the Bible has to say on the subject and I was not able to answer. I think that it's time to be prepared with answers to these questions and many more if we want to retain our 2nd amendment rights without having to exercise those rights :) i understand your sentiment but trying ti argue the 2a and need for a firearm by quoting scripture isn't going to win any freinds in this debate. In fact it may very well damage the argument in most peoples eyes. |
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Here is what the Catholic Church teaches about self defense (from the Catechism of the Catholic Church):
2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."
2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow: If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's. |
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Quoted: Turn the other cheek refers to not seeking revenge, not avoiding self defense.In the New Testament Jesus speaks of selling your robe to buy a sword for self defense, but also tells his men to submit to foreign taxation, and to turn the other cheek. To top it all of Jesus was killed by his enemies, after making no atempt to defend himself, or fleeing to fight another day. Jesus was not here to fight. The purpose of the incarnation was the sacrifice: "Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who taketh away the sin of the world." When the time was right, he allowed himself to be taken, because he KNEW that it was the will of God. |
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Turn the other cheek refers to not seeking revenge, not avoiding self defense. In the New Testament Jesus speaks of sellingyour robe to buy a sword for self defense, but also tells his men tosubmit to foreign taxation, and to turn the other cheek. Also, being smacked on the cheeck is a far cry from having someone come at you with the intention of killing you. |
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The Bible also says that anyone who does not provide for his own (family) is worse than an unbeliever. I would think that would extend over into physically protecting them as well.
As far as Jesus not defending Himself, there is no argument there. He made it clear as to why he had come, and that He was going to die. His mission was to give His life, and He did. He said Himself that no one was "taking" His life, but that He was willingly giving it. Jesus could have been taken by force many times, but He was not touched by His enemies until it was time. Recall in the garden how those who had come to arrest Him fell backwards to the ground UNTIL He let them seize Him? |
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Exodus 22 [Property Laws]
22:2 “If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there will be no blood guilt for him. 22:3 If the sun has risen on him, then there is blood guilt for him. A thief must surely make full restitution; if he has nothing, then he will be sold for his theft. (In an enourmous display of good sense, God wanted criminals sold into slavery where they would contribute to society instead of being given room, board, medical, dental, and cable) Matthew 24 [Olivet Prophecy] 24:42 “Therefore stay alert, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 24:43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have been alert and would not have let his house be broken into. 24:44 Therefore you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. (Christ clearly believed that the house should be defended against the thief, otherwise he would have said something else.) John [Jesus as a good shepherd contrasting himself with a thief] 10:10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come so that they may have life, and may have it abundantly. Lastly, Luke 10 [The Parable of the Good Samaritan, the two great commandments] 10:25 Now an expert in religious law stood up to test Jesus, saying, “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 10:26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you understand it?” 10:27 The expert answered, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and love your neighbor as yourself.” 10:28 Jesus said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.” (What more horrid thing could you do to your neighbor than let cutthroats and thieves run around loose) |
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I don't understand your post. Your right to defend yourself comes from the fact that bad men and animals live in this world and they want to kill you, or worse. As far as looking to Christ for the answer goes, you will get mixed signals. The Old Testament is full of God commanding the Israelites to uterly destroy certain nations, while Moses is punished by God for killing an Egyption. In the New Testament Jesus speaks of selling your robe to buy a sword for self defense, but also tells his men to submit to foreign taxation, and to turn the other cheek. To top it all of Jesus was killed by his enemies, after making no atempt to defend himself, or fleeing to fight another day. If you are a Christian, you MUST believe that this earth is temporary while your soul and heaven is immortal. Your job is not to stay on this earth for as long as possible, rather, to accept God's will and leave it when he creates circumstances that cause your demise. Your reward for believing the word of God will be eternity in heaven. Now some here will say, "but could you sit by and watch your daughter raped and murdered?" You have to ask yourself the question: will she be better off in heaven and it is God's will? If you deny it is God's will, then you have to ask yourself if God has tested you and you failed his test. It is not God's will for your daughter to get raped and murdered. That's a personal choice by the criminal who committed the acts. I have no problems as a Christian killing someone to defend myself, my family or my country. I'll still go to heaven anyway, because I know Christ as my savior! |
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I don't understand your post. Your right to defend yourself comes from the fact that bad men and animals live in this world and they want to kill you, or worse. As far as looking to Christ for the answer goes, you will get mixed signals. The Old Testament is full of God commanding the Israelites to uterly destroy certain nations, while Moses is punished by God for killing an Egyption. In the New Testament Jesus speaks of selling your robe to buy a sword for self defense, but also tells his men to submit to foreign taxation, and to turn the other cheek. To top it all of Jesus was killed by his enemies, after making no atempt to defend himself, or fleeing to fight another day. If you are a Christian, you MUST believe that this earth is temporary while your soul and heaven is immortal. Your job is not to stay on this earth for as long as possible, rather, to accept God's will and leave it when he creates circumstances that cause your demise. Your reward for believing the word of God will be eternity in heaven. Now some here will say, "but could you sit by and watch your daughter raped and murdered?" You have to ask yourself the question: will she be better off in heaven and it is God's will? If you deny it is God's will, then you have to ask yourself if God has tested you and you failed his test. "While we will be the last to oppress, we will be the last to be driven from our post. Peace be still, bury the hatchet and the sword, the sound of war is dreadful in my ear. [But] any man who will not fight for his wife and children is a coward and a bastard" |
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Sorry to show up so late to the party, but I've been away for more than a week. I have a personal "pet"/favorite treatment on this subject but I just posted it in a thread here a couple of weeks back, so rather than rerun it here again so soon I'll just post a link to the thread: http://www.jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=135&t=782993 Hopefully you will find something useful in that thread (mine or otherwise).  |
| I want to thank everyone for the replies and links. I never thought for a second that it was wrong to defend myself even by lethal force but my wife was on the fence and was looking to God for the answer. I think that you have answered those questions. To add to this I was going to approach my Minister on the subject and also to gain permission to carry on property. Not only did I get a yes I was encouraged to carry even in the sanctuary for the protection of others in the event that something was to happen. For those that want to know I belong to a Church of Christ. Thank you |
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Have her read this:
http://www.davekopel.org/2A/Mags/oprelign.htm |
| The commandment, if translated literally, means "thou shalt not MURDER." For instance, killing someone in self defense or while serving in the military is not considered murder, and because of that, I see no problem with using deadly physical force as an absolute last resort. |
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St. Gabriel Possenti:The Savior of Isola
In 1860, a band of soldiers from the army of Garibaldi entered the mountain village of Isola, Italy. They began to burn and pillage the town, terrorizing its inhabitants. Possenti, with his seminary rector's permission, walked into the center of town, unarmed, to face the terrorists. One of the soldiers was dragging off a young woman he intended to rape when he saw Possenti and made a snickering remark about such a young monk being all alone. Possenti quickly grabbed the soldier's revolver from his belt and ordered the marauder to release the woman. The startled soldier complied, as Possenti grabbed the revolver of another soldier who came by. Hearing the commotion, the rest of the soldiers came running in Possenti's direction, determined to overcome the rebellious monk. At that moment a small lizard ran across the road between Possenti and the soldiers. When the lizard briefly paused, Possenti took careful aim and struck the lizard with one shot. Turning his two handguns on the approaching soldiers, Possenti commanded them to drop their weapons. Having seen his handiwork with a pistol, the soldiers complied. Possenti ordered them to put out the fires they had set, and upon finishing, marched the whole lot out of town, ordering them never to return. The grateful townspeople escorted Possenti in triumphant procession back to the seminary, thereafter referring to him as "the Savior of Isola". 
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