Posted: 5/11/2008 2:35:04 PM EDT
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Explain this to me: 1. According to John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." 2. According to John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." 3. According to Hewbrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." 4. According to Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." 5. Accroding to Genesis 2:22 "And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man." 6. According to Genesis 3:20 "And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living." So we have established that Jesus Christ is God, God never changes, God created man (Adam), God created woman (Eve) and that Eve was the mother of all living people. This means that every person who was born was the daughter or son of Eve making them brothers and sisters. However, according to Deuteronomy 27:22 "Cursed [be] he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of his mother. And all the people shall say, Amen" Now,: 7. According to James 1:13 "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man" 8. According to 1 Corinthians 10:13 "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it]." So then, if: 1. Jesus Christ is God 2. God never changes 3. God create Adam and Eve 4. Eve is the mother of all living 5. It is a sin to have sex with your sister 6. God will never tempt you into sin or force you into a sin that you cannot escape from Question 1: How then did humanity survive beyond one generation of humans? Surely having sex with your sister would have been just as offensive to God in the begining as it was when Moses was given the law by God since God never changes. Also, according to Genesis 4 the following are true: 1. Cain was the FIRST son of Adam and Eve Genesis 4:1 "And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. " 2. According to Genesis 4:14 Cain said "Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, [that] every one that findeth me shall slay me." Question 2: Who did Cain fear would slay him? 3. According to Genesis 4:17 "And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch." Question 3: Who was Cain's wife? Question 4: How did Cain build a city if it was just him, his wife and his one son on Earth aside from Adam and Eve? |
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wiki.answers.com/Q/If_Adam_and_Eve_had_two_sons_but_no_daughters_how_did_the_world_get_populated I just happened to see this thread in the active topics. Please don't ask me to explain their answer, as I doubt I'll revisit this thread again. Plus, all that thinking makes my head hurt. 
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That explains why Adam had more sons and daughters. That part I never disputed. What it does not answer is why humanity continued to exist past the first generation of Adam and Eve's offspring. In order for a third generation of humans to have existed the second generation (considering Adam and Eve to be the first generation) would have had to have sex with each other. However, if Eve was the mother of all living then the entire second generation of humans would have been brothers and sisters. These incestous relationships would have been sinful in God's eyes since he 1) never changes and 2) commanded Moses to forbid incest specifically between brothers and sisters. Futhermore, if God created only one man and one woman then he would have known that in order for humans to have been fruitful and multiply they would have had to become incestous in order to produce a third generation of humans. If Eve was the mother of all living people then any woman that her third son (Seth) would have had sex with would have been his sister (unless he also had sex with Eve, which is also strictly forbidden in the bible). So the question remains unanswered. If God never changes, then he must have always viewed incest as a sin. If the bible is correct then God would have never led the second generation of people into the sin of incest. However, if Eve was the mother of all living then the second generation of humans would have had no choice but to engage in incestous relationships in order to continue the existence of humanity. |
Yes, but they would have all been brothers and sisters. According to the bible (as I pointed out) it is a sin for a brother and sister to have sex. However, in order for humanity to have survived past a second generation. Since God created Adam and Eve, and since Eve was the mother of all living humans then this must have been God's plan. However, the bible tell us that incest is a sin and that God never tempts you to sin and always creates a way of escape. In order for the creation story to be true, one of the following must be true: 1. Eve was not the mother of all living humans as the bible states in Genesis 3:20. If Eve was not the mother of all living humans then the bible is incorrect and does not tell us the full story of humanity's origins. Where did the other people come from? 2. God does change. If God created Adam and Eve and Eve was the mother of all living humans then God must have intended for their sons and daughters to have been incestous in order for humanity to have been fruitful and multiply. If this is the case then God must have permited incest for at least one generation but then later decided that is a sin. If this is true then the bible is incorrect regarding the nature of God. He must in fact change in order for him to permit something for one generation that he later deemed to be sinful. 3. God will allow you to be put in a situation where you must commit a sin. As stated previously, if God had intended for all people to come from Adam and Eve and God views incest as a sin then he clearly put the second generation of humans into a situation where they must sin. Again, if this is true then the bible is not telling us the truth regarding the nature of God. The bible clearly states that God will not put you into a situation where you MUST sin, that he will always make a way of escape. Additionally, this does not answer the question about who Cain was afraid of after he killed Able. By the nature of his name it is implied that Cain was Adam and Eve's first son. After all, why would Adam have named Cain "God has given me a man" if he had already had a son? Seth was not born until after Cain had been driven out, and according to the generations of Adam in Genesis Chapter 5 Adam and Eve did not bear many sons and daughters until after Seth was born. So again, if Cain was the first born and he killed his only brother (Able) who was he afraid would kill him? ETA - This may SEEM like trolling based on minor points in the bible. I assure that it is not. If the bible is correct as to the origins of humanity then it is not correct regarding the nature of God since it states that God is unchanging and will never force you into a position where you must sin. If it is correct about the nature of God being unchanging and that he will never force you into a position where you must commit a sin, then it is not correct about the origins of humanity. |
sister was given to Moses nearly a thousand (perhaps more) years later.
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I'm not trying to be crass or demean anyone's religion but The King James Version is a translation of a translation written on the commission of a king to not be controversial by committee. Christ did not teach just to the scholar but actually the opposite mainly to the uneducated poor of the time. It was one of his transcretions against the church/temple of the day teaching that religion was for the uneducated and understanding of the same. This threatened their power base. I have no idea after Cain killed Able then moved away to start a new nation where his wife came from but then I guess it isn't important. What is important is he killed his brother. Its much that way with most the Bible. It truly is a beautiful work full of more truths than probably any work in the history of mankind. The art to its appreaciation is not getting lost in the detail but the finding the message, lesson, and truth. Sorry for my post and now you all can go back to analyzing each line. Tj |
That just about covers it for me as well. |
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A: You will note that Jesus is not the word, he's the "word made flesh". B: Marrying your brother or sister was not wrong until the wilderness wandering (about 20 generations from Adam). For instance, Abraham was married to his half sister. Presumably Adam and Eve were made perfect and genetic defects had not accumulated to a dangerous degree until the wilderness wandering. C: God never changes, but Man's situation does. For instance, before the flood, godly men were vegetarians, afterwards they could eat meat. D: Adam lived 930 years and had was commanded to be fruitful and multiply, which he did (Genesis 5:4). How many kids could you produce have if you lived for 930 years without birth control. Alot of people having long fertile periods would make for rapid population growth. Cain would have alot of people to fear. |
Details are important. It is often the details that distinguish lies from truth. Now, I am not saying that the bible is a lie, or that the story of creation is a lie. I am asking what I think is a very valid question. If the story of creation has holes in it then what parts of the bible are to be believed as "gospel truth" (no pun intended) and what are not? Was the Law of Moses an a set of edicts given to Moses by God or were they the inspirations of a former prince who was trying to found a new nation from a group of slaves that had lost it's heritage? Were the teachings of Paul also a set of rules handed down by a former Jewish lawyer trying to separate people from a pagan Roman society and legalistic Jewish societies, or were they directions inspired by the Holy Spirit for the way to establish churches and live our daily lives? If the story of creation an inaccurate series of traditional beliefs or is it the recorded history of the beginning of the world and origin of mankind? Are the stories of Jesus inaccurate second hand traditions told by people who never witnessed the acts that they described or are they the detailed chronicles of the life, death and resurrection of the son of God? The details ARE important. Am I to find salvation in the afterlife by believing and following this book and it's teachings, or am I wasting my energy and life on a series of second, third or fourth hand fables that will do nothing for me? Most of the people that I have known closely have dedicated their lives to living in strict accordance with the teachings of this book. They believe without question that it tells everything from the beginning of the world and reveals the future up to the destruction of mankind and planet Earth and even into eternity for believers and non-believers. Am I to study and apply this book to every aspect of my daily life in hopes of living a life that is pleasing to God (and thereby avoiding eternal torment and damnation in a lake of burning sulfur) without knowing and understanding the details? How many copies of The Prayer of Jabez were sold focusing on only one insignificant verse of the bible? How many people have applied the teaching of one verse about one person to their lives in hopes of finding fulfillment and prosperity? Details are important. |
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I pointed out that the Jesus that walked the earth and dwelled among us was the word made flesh, just like John 1:14 said.
He may at some point change his mind. However, I'm sure He would tell somebody if He did, just like he has done before. Not all of God's laws are spiritual in nature, many of them are very practical, like putting a railing around your roof if you are going to have a party up there, or cooking your meat in different pots than your vegetables depending on what the pot is made out of. Remember that the core of the law is that we are to love God and love our neighbors. If circumstances change, how we express that love may need to change with it.
Sheep produce wool. Genesis 9:3 explains the rest.
When do you think that Cain killed Abel, as no date is listed. You seem to be assuming that there is nobody else around besides Cain, Abel, Adam, and Eve. There is no date of birth given for Cain or Abel. One was given for Seth (130 years) which puts a maximum date at which Cain killed Abel. How many offspring and how many generations of offspring could Adam and Eve produce in those 130 years? |
What can I tell you but if you are looking for all the details with no gaps other than you are more likely looking for a reason to not believe. One simply doesn't need every gap filled and questioned answered to have faith or to live their lives by what is taught in the book. I can no more tell you who is going to heaven or who to hell than the next man for I am not God and it was Jesus himself who told the criminal at his side that he would be with him at his fathers side. There's no mention of repenting or sacraments. Entire religions are based on or changed by the translations. Was it murder or kill in the ten commandments? Does it matter if you accept all men sin and forgiveness is part of the plan? Was Judas' actions God's plan or was God planning on Judas to be who he was? Is he in heaven or hell? Is it proof of destiny, do we set our own destiny, or is both? Kind of hard to put limits on God. You see salvation is a big part of the Christian faith but there are far more words dedicated on how one should live their lives than how to find salvation. No matter how you shake the words, translate, or even language used, that how to live is pretty clear. If someone tells you the sun will rise in the east in the morning, he's technically wrong since the Earth is rotating but the fact remains daylight will come and it will begin in the east. Volumes indeed and even religions are based on the details. It is a worthwhile discussion . Just some of us don't see it as the make or break of our faith. Tj |
Or perhaps much of the Jewish traditions and laws were the ideas of a former Egyptian prince who was trying to create a nation from a group of people who had not heritage. Keep in mind that Jesus himself split with the law of Moses. When the pharisees asked Jesus about divorce Jesus asked them: "And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?" (Mark 10:3) Divorce was legal under the law of Moses, as the pharisees pointed out. However, in God's eyes divorce was still a sin. Jesus said in no uncertain terms that to divorce for any reason other than fornication was equal to adultery and to divorce and remarry was adultery in God's eyes. Also, the book of Acts plainly points out that the leaders of the early church up and did away with the law of Moses on their own authority. They forbid gentiles from eating things strangled, pollution of idols, fornication and blood. They completely wiped about 2,000 years of tradition away in one afternoon. But Jesus on the other hand said "think not that I am come to destroy the law but to complete it." So, if the law of Moses could so easily be done away with, what about the edicts of Paul? What about the edicts that women should not teach or hold any authority over a man. This was one of God's curses upon woman ever since she ate the forbidden fruit (that the man would rule over her), yet today there are all kinds of women teacher, pastors and preachers. Did God change his mind about women in the ministry? As I stated earlier, some people and preachers I have known throughout my life have dedicated their lives by trying to live in accordance with every word in the bible. The belief that the bible means what it says and says what it means is not an extremist fringe mentality amongst Christians. On the other hand you have ministers and people who will tell you that faith is all you need. Which one and I to trust my immortal soul to?
Well, it does not say for certain, but we do have some clues to consider. 1. Biblical genealogies always start with the first born son. In the case of Adam and Eve, Cain was obviously the first born son since his very name means "I have gotten a man from the LORD". Able was number two. Now, from the fact that Adam's genealogy goes from Adam to Seth we can deduce that Seth was the third Son of Adam and Eve based on the order of the genealogy in Genesis chapter 5. 2. We do not know how long Adam and Eve lived in The Garden of Eden, but we do know that they had no children when they lived in the garden. The bible clearly states that God only drove the man and the woman from the garden and God made clothes only for the man and the woman. Therefore, it is evident that they bore no children in the garden. So, between the exile from paradise and the age of 130 Adam only had three sons; Cain, Able and Seth. Genesis 5:4 seems to back this up by stating: "And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:" which indicates that Adam's other sons and daughters were born in the 800 years after Seth's birth. So, who was Cain afraid of? Some sisters? A nephew from Able perhaps that the bible does not mention? |
That is not accurate. I very firmly believe in the deity of Jesus Christ. I believe that he was the Son of God come to Earth as a man, was crucified for our sins, rose from the dead, ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of the father and will someday judge the living and the dead. What I am fuzzy on is most everything else. For example, is there a dictator coming that will rule over the entire planet and behead every Christian? Will Russia, Iran, Ethiopia and Libya join forces and attack Israel with the dictator of the world leading the charge and trigger the battle that will culminate with Jesus Christ leading the armies of Heaven to the destruction of the armies of The Anti-Christ? Despite all of the scientific evidence to the contrary, did mankind really come into existence 6,000 years ago as in Iraq and populate the entire planet with the offspring of one man and one woman? Is this book that was kept out of the reach of the millions of people who lived under it's authority, preached in Latin and used as the basis for founding a mercilessly brutal empire that ruled over the kingdoms of Europe for hundreds of years, and then re-written by a king because he wanted to found his own church in order to consolidate his power against the Roman Catholic Church trustworthy in it's entirety?
It doesn't make or break my faith. I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and nothing will convince me otherwise. What I don't know is if I have the whole truth in this one book and if every word in this book are directions from the mouth of God for living a life of righteousness. |
Both the OT and NT refer to other books, written by prophets. One could presume that, having been written by prophets, they also contained truth. Between the time of the Apostles and the time of King James, there were no prophets in Europe or the Middle East that we know of. As in the time of Christ, when it was clear that the religious establishment had gone astray of the truth and God's ways, it is not hard to imagine that something similar happened in the centuries before King James. I bet there's a lot more to the story that we don't know. Yet. -grommet |
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It's very simple: Adam & Eve had many sons and daughters and they sex with each other for a while until families were established. What we call "incest" probably occurred for a number of generations after Adam & Eve. Why is this so hard to comprehend? God's law against incest did not come for many many generations after Adam and Eve's offspring... Also, We know the early people that inhabited the earth lived for hundreds of years. Adam lived to be 930 years old. So, Cain very easily could have lived to see a number of generations of his family. He could have built the city when he was literally hundreds of years old, so that would imply a significant population of people could have been around by then. Even Moses lived to be 120 and it is written that when he died he was a strong and able-bodied man who did not have weakness in his eyes. |
Not so. The gentiles were never required to uphold the Jewish law. Remember, the law of Moses is a legal system for a nation, not for the whole earth. Christianity is a religion. It wasn't "easy" to do away with the law of Moses, a nation had to be destroyed, and a new creation replaced it, namely the church. I suspect that when the church is done away with, we will get something new.
I don't believe in immortal souls, because the soul that sins shall die. However, I live in hope of the ressurection. For that turn to God, and earnestly seek Him (as you are doing).
In Genesis 5, we get the stepping stones to Noah. If they were firstborn sons or not, it does not say. |
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I used to have a friend who liked to ask questions like these. Even when someone would explain it to him plainly , he would persist in asking - especially if there was someone new around to hear the discussion. He now knows the answers personally. He died not too long ago, and I would have LOVED to have been there when he started asking the questions face to face with God! Don't stop seeking, God likes the effort. Even if it annoys the hell out of your friends. |
Good post. That pretty much sums up what's going on in this thread, IMHO. Answers are irrelevant to some. |
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No I don't belive the King James version is worth a hill of beans. The English empire have an agenda, no way! And the New Testament is just a commentary written by others, assembled by commitees. Jesus always referred back to the word, the Torah. I believe too much of the bible (any edition) is mistranslated and misinterpreted. All other societies have had beliefs about the origin of man and the higher power, back at a time when many of those societies were not visited by outsiders, independent belief systems. Every one full of superstition. Campfire tales. Believe that a flood wiped out everyone but Moses and clan? Several reports from other cultures (Chinese for example) reported a great flood during this time. Read Mark Twain's Letters From the Earth. The first section bring some good thoughts about the impossibility of some of the things written in the bible. The beliefs of the Aztecs, Hawaiians, Celtics, Vikings, Romans and Greeks are all considered mythology and lore. Judaism and Christianity are no different. Catholicism is what happens when pagans with multiple gods/idols adopt a cool new thing, and adhere to the same ideals as their old ways (Saint Doorgunner, Saint Wolfpack, Saint Goatboy). They all missed the point and the real message. A friend who is a messianic jew now (believes the new testament commentary bit) was in catholic school in 6th grade and asked his teacher, "Why do we worship all these saints if the bible saya Jesus is the only way to god?" They expelled him. Thinking too much gets you in trouble. Then again I think you were asking for christian answers, and mine is not. Sorry dood! |
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If an Almighty God left His word in a book so that all might find a personal relationship with Him, could He not through Divine Power ensure that “men” write it correctly? As far as which books were inspired by God I think the first criteria would be that they have to match at major points. Say for example if all of a sudden someone were to say they found three new Lord of The Ring books. How could you determine they are real? Simple, by knowledgeable people reading them to see if the content matches that of the first three books. If you have major inconsistences to the point were they would conflict with the first three books …well then they would be frauds! That’s not saying they wouldn’t be good books they just wouldn’t be Lord of The Ring books. The men who compiled the KJV Bible were far more thorough then many give them credit. For those who say it is simply a poor translation of the original language simply do not know the History behind it. To this day it is still considered the most accurate translation of original text. Many modern translations today used it as a reference point. Don’t get me wrong. There are a few decent modern translations but I believe the best standard to tell which are decent is the KJV. There are some good books (even non-Christian) that show the Historical significance of the KJV. Even if you don’t like its contents the impact it has had on the world is astounding. Just my three cents. |
When he said "I change not" , he didn't mean his rules, right. |
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Good questions to base your faith on solid ground. Try Googling Ken Hamm, answersradio.com, and the Creation Musem. They are more learned and can futher answer you questions. Happy searching and may the Holy Spirit reveal answers to you for we are chosen by the Holy Spirit(God). |
But what about the inconsistency of the people checking the books. Man is too fallible of a vessle to be trusted with anything. There was only one that was ever to be as perfect as we were meant to be since the fall (Adam, Eve) and that was supposedly Jesus. If man can be strayed by Satan, and only God and Satan can know a man's heart, how do you know the person chosing the work is worth his salt? How many dedicated god fearing men do you find later to have live a 2nd life, or done unspeakable things? Their whole life they have shown their steadiness and dedication and percieved greatness in the eyes of others, and all along there was something underneath, swaying him. There are books that the catholic church belives should be/are in the bible, and books in the bible that the catholics didn't believe should be in. There you have the inconsistency of man and his desire to be right. Jesus already had god's book to share with men, and that was the old testament, the torah. But his last words were, "Why have you forsaken me?" That is not a phrase of faith, that is a phrase of someone at their end using their last breath to to ask "why have you left me out to dry". For the person that was supposed to come to the earth and live the perfect life and example, that doesn't show the total faith and knowledge of the truth that his life showed, that shows a fallible human at their dying end. And god is not supposed to be infallible. |
The Lord does not change. He is who he is: The Almighty. As far as His "rules", He can change them whenever he wants however he wants. He can even change His mind if he wants to. He is God after all. The specific decree against incest was not established until hundreds and hundreds of years after Adam and Eve were around. As fas as I know, He has never changed or gone back on His "rule" against incest since it was established in Deuteronomy. |
G-d is the ultimate counselor. You can call it lawyer or whatever. If G-d says something it is considered written in "stone" If He would change His law/word He can also revoke your salvation. But then G-d would be a liar. G-d is not a liar. Choose your words more carefully. In every case where it seems like things change - their was already a clause prior that spoke of the reason or cause for this change. And usually it is a consequence of our own actions, not His. |
 I agree with you, dude! (I think...)Yeah, I agree with you! I never said he did change his rules, but I did say he can change his rules.  This is nit-picky on a broader philosophical level and more importantly, moot for this discussion at hand.The bottomline is I addressed the point of discussion on the matter of incest... God is consistent on his rule against incest since he established it with man. That's the main point. 
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This may be getting a bit off topic, but I have to comment on this statement. Jesus is not saying God has left him out to dry. He is actually quoting Psalm 22. It was common practice to say the first line of a psalm and everyone would know the whole thing and thus understand your point. Part of the psalm was actually prophecy of Jesus as the messiah. If you re-read the entire Psalm, you will see that God does not leave Jesus out to dry, even when everyone else does. That's a huge point! Jesus willingly and without resentment, sacrificed himself for us. He withstood not only the physical pain and torture, but the humiliation of having not one of his disciples stand up for him. He is the perfect model for us when we have suffering or humiliation to endure in our own lives. |
Well, to be clear God never intended for Abraham to sacrifice Issac. It was a test to see if Abraham would do it. God did not change his mind. |