[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Question about Jesus (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 3/4/2008 3:24:26 AM EDT
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First off... just so you know where I stand; I am an agnostic person who intellectually knows that God does not exist yet I HOPE that he does. Now that that is out of the way, here's my question. To get into heaven by following conventional Christian faith, you need to accept Jesus Christ into your heart as your lord and savior. Now..... to me that mentality is downright insulting. Isn't it a bit immature to demand a "thank you" for something you volunteered to do? Like demanding your fellow duck hunters thank you because you volunteered at a DU dinner. Am I wrong in anyway in assuming that Jesus Christ's stance on the "Heaven Admission Standards" is a bit asinine? |
Actually it's logically impossible to call ones self an atheist. One cannot disprove the existance of a god and therefore cannot rule out the possiblity, how ever remote it may be. There may be a tea pot in orbit around Jupiter with it's spout spinning merrily around. I can say though that the probability is so remote that it's not worth speculating. Therefore I am an tea pot agnostic with strong atheistic leaning. I was once where our original poster is currently. I intellectually discarded the idea of a god existing. I could not let go of the emotional attachment and also did not want to suffer the peer backlash for declaring myself publically as an atheist, therefore I claimed agnosticism or deism. To respond to our original poster though. I agree with your summation. To volunteer for a role and then perpatrate a guilt trip for doing so is emotional manipulation in it's highest form. I would expect more from a human leader and therefore would expect even greater honor from one claiming to be a god figure. Karsh |
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Have you ever thanked your parents for the years of work and toil they did to feed, clothe and house you? If not, you should. What Jesus did for me was like 4,000,000,000,000 million trillion times greater than what my parents do and have done. Although I put them up on a high earthly pedestal, even thought they are not perfect. Neither am I, and I'm a father. |
Of course I've thanked my parents for their sacrifices. That's easy. I can see them. I talk to them regularily. I witnessed their sacrifices and can even now measure what those sacrifices gave me. They never demanded a thank you though. They sacrificed for purely alturistic reasons. To demand a thank you shows that the sacrifice was made with a repayment in mind. Why would I thank a long dead person for a sacrifice that I didn't need to a god I don't believe in? Karsh |
That is a very, very good example. |
As an agnostic how can you know that you didn't need that sacrifice? After all, if you don't know that there is a God, and by extension don't know your relationship to him, then how can you know that you don't need him or what he has done for you? |
Because, even though I can't disprove the existence of a god, he's not been the answer so many times that I'm not willing to waste my time on what has such a finite chance of being there. I don't act in my life as if there is a tea pot in orbit around Jupiter either. While I certainly can't prove it's not there, history teaches me that it has very little relevence in my life and science teaches me that the probability that it is there is so slight that it's not worth worrying about. Why would you continue to follow a god that hasn't shown a hide or hair of himself in thousands of years? If he's there I'd say it's certainly time to admit you've been stood up. Not to mention, all the evil that's been done in his name. The fact that he's done nothing to stand up for himself leads me to believe that if he does exist he's got little honor or self respect. I expect more out of people I'd be willing to follow and I'd certainly expect more from a god. Now, personally I believe that god is a creation of man, in man's image, to explain and justify that which man was unable to explain or justify himself. I find no more evidence of a god then I do of Santa Clause. Karsh |
I wasn't talking to you. 
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Sorry about that. Your post was immediately after mine so assumed it was at least in part pointed at me. Not to mention that it is an open public discussion group. Karsh |
or you could consider it less a "thank you" and more a "you're not good enough to get into Heaven yourself, but if you want, my Son Jesus will stand in judgement of "your life" for you." Seems much more like a great offer for anyone.!!! |
Your logic is accurate. There are many such arguments against Christianity following the same logic. Remember that such an argument always has opposition. Spend some time at some websites that debunk Christianity and you will find of similar statements. Franklin |
Well, for the record, you won't find "accept Jesus as your personal savior" anywhere in the Bible. |
Yeah!! I get a pass. Let the pillaging begin!! Booze, and drugs and virgins oh my! Karsh |
I will withold judgement re: the "trollishness" of this thread for now, but forgive me if I look closely and skeptically upon any postings in this forum from someone who stated (elsewhere on this site) that "a thinking, conservative Christian" is an "oxymoron." 
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Well, nobody is going to force you to be grateful to Jesus nor force you to accept him as your Savior. If you reject the notion that you need anyone to sacrifice himself for you then so be it. For you the concept of a Savior might be asinine, but for many of us it is a precious gift that Christ has offered himself as a sacrifice on our behalf. What more is there to really say in the matter? |
I know I need Him. |
Just cause this struck me as odd. Wouldn't it be trolling if he had entered another thread and hijacked it to this topic but if he starts his own...? Wouldn't that be starting a discussion regrding his own views for those that choose to discuss them with him? I'd say that it's fairly clear from the original post that this isn't the "lets agree with christianity" discussion group. I would think that if it were a trolling attempt it was a poor one. Karsh |
Exhibiting a disdain for Christianity (or any religion, or all religions for that matter) does not make one a troll, even in this forum, but how one chooses to express it in this particular forum makes all the difference in the world as to perception and response(s). Mutual respect is key here and, IMHO, the statement above in red is intentionally disrespectful (even if the "Standards" to which he refers were universal or even generally-accepted among Christians, which they are not). I could lock the entire thread for trolling based upon that alone and could probably defend the decision, but I instead chose to suspend judgement and offer what I thought was a very mildly-worded public warning, given the OP's apparent newness here. His comment in the other thread is arguably a CoC violation, even outside this forum. Again, since he appears to be new, I did not report it as such. If he is a one-trick pony with an axe to grind against religion it will come out soon enough. If he sincerely wants to engage in respectful discussion here, that too should become apparent. BTW, "Christianity" should always be capitalized, as should any proper name/religion name. It does not show agreement, merely courtesy (and grammatical accuracy, FWIW). Please note, I am not saying you did that intentionally above to show any disrespect.
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Read Romans 5. In a nutshell.we live under a representative spiritual system. Adam, being the first man, chose rebellion and gained sin for himself, and thus for all men after him. When you are born, you are born into "Adam's Family" and thus guilty under the penalty of sin. Adam chose for us and we bear the consequences of his choice. Jesus is described as the second Adam, who chose obedience, and therefore gained righteousness for Himself, and for all those that He represents. But Jesus has no natural "heirs". However, one can be adopted FROM Adam's family INTO Christ's family. and that is what salvation is all about. Believers switch their representative head from Adam to Christ, and therefore He (Christ) now chooses for them and they bear the benefit of that choice. If you don't choose Christ as your representative, then you're stuck with the consequences of Adam. It's got nothing to do with "thank you", although that certainly is a by-product. And actually, it is insulting NOT to accept the offer, for we certainly don't deserve it. And yes, doing so is admitting our own fault and error, and to not do so is false arrogance and conceit on our part. You've got to give up your rebellious pride. |
This has always struck me as odd. What did I do that would make me so undeserving a person? Am I to suffer for the failures of another? Am I judged on a long dead relative that is so far removed I'm more genitically related to a wart hog then him? Why would it be false arrogence to demand that I be judged on my own recognizence? On my own actions? On my own acts? As a non-believer I don't have to rebell against religion or the religious. I simple don't see where they have any domain over me. I don't believe in his existence, therefore there isn't any offer for me to reject. Karsh |
CoC = Code of Conduct? FWIW = ???? So, is this like my warning to make better use of my shift key? If I don't am I gonna loose priveledges to post or what? Karsh |
Somehow I just picture a hindu thinking the same about christians. I wonder if the feeling they get is the same as mine everytime I hear this kida stuff? Karsh |
If you actually volunteered to get saved, I'd agree with you. But according to Scripture, God drags men to Himself kicking and screaming bloody murder. AFTER He saves us we thank Him, but NO MAN volunteeres to get saved. I'd say your reasoning is correct, but your facts are in error. "For by grace are you saved thru faith, and even that is not of yourself - it is the gift of God. Salvation is not of works, lest any man should boast." -- Eph 2:8-9 |
Amen. God chose us. It's all in Ephesians 1. How very blessed we are!!!!!!! |
Oh, you're not innocent in the matter either. Commit one act in violation of the Moral Code and you're guilty. Read Romans 1:18- 5:1. The whole world is guilty. The penalty if sin is death, temporal and eternal. If you want to be judged by your own behavior, you're a fool. God does not "balance" your so called good deeds against your bad ones, but expects you to be morally perfect. The Old Testament contains all the laws expressing that perfection, but Jesus summed them up with "Love the LORD your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself." How do you measure up? Perfect? |
Please demonstrate where it states God drags men to Himself kicking and screaming bloody murder. Calvinism at is best (worst). Matthew 23:37 demonstrates Christ's sadness at the people's refusal to be gathered to him. He would not drag them kicking and screaming. He knocks at the door, but it is up to us to open it and accept him into our lives. |
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I measure up just fine. I look in the mirror every morning and find a person I like. One that I'm proud to be asociated with. Why would I read a work of fiction to center my moral compass? At best it's loosely based on a possible figure in history with an imeasurable amount of embellishment. It alwasy strikes me as funny that eventually believers start quoting the bible to me as if it has some power of fact. You might as well quote the back of a Lysol bottle. Why would you think that quoting the bible to me would somehow change my mind? Karsh |
Hell, even the believers can't agree on what it says. Karsh |
Correct. Why do you think there are so many different churches 2000+ years after Christ? It is impossible to resolve many issue by appealing to the Bible. |
And yet all of Christianity believes in the basic fundamental truth that we are saved by believing and accepting Christ's sacrifice of Himself in our stead as the ONLY way to be right with God. God is perfect and imperfection cannot survive in His presence. This is why the Jews of old had their elaborate system of animal sacrifices. The blood of the unblemished lamb, bull, dove, etc... took the place of the blood of the sinner demanded as punishment for sin. This system was temporary and imperfect until God Himself took on human flesh, came down here and became THE once and for all final sacrifice for the sins of all who would simply accept this propitiation. The blood of Christ actually covers our sins and makes us able to stand in God's presence without punishment, redeemed by His own sacrifice. I think that makes God pretty awesome. No matter what we do, we can't live up to God's righteous standard. It is not a case of Chirst selfishly saying "Hey, if you don't appreciate me for what I've done, go screw yourself." He is saying "You aren't perfect, but I have done something for you that makes everything between you and God perfect! Will you trust me for your salvation? I did all the work, now come and be a part of God's family!" I sincerely hope that you find what you are looking for. I have chosen Christ, and that has made the difference, every day. |
The funny part is that judaism doesn't even believe jesus was anything more then a prophet. I guess only the christians got it right, well I take that back each denomination think they are the only ones to ahve gotten it right. Course then you have to take into account all the churches that split and form non-denominational churches. I'm glad I'm an atheist. Karsh |
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It varies greatly from doctrine to doctrine, from denomination to denomination -- I would venture to say that there probably is not a single important point of religious doctrine upon which all Christians can agree. Remember -- the broader the brush you paint with, the more likely you are to be wrong. 
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Again, and not wanting to hijack this into a doctrinal debate, not all of Christianity believes that to be true. |
Just wanted to make sure before I stuck my neck out any farther then I do on a general basis. I rarely capitalise any word having to do directly with organized religion. Not particularily as a sign of disrespect as I don't find anything substantive there to disrespect. For the same reason I don't worry about it if I forget to capitalise micky mouse. I rarely spell check my post as when I reread them they say exactly what I meant them to say regardless of the typos. I jsut don't see them as I'm reading with the minds eye kinda thing. It's only after a bit of time I look back and see all the typos. I've taken to calling them trademarks! So if other perceive it as insult or have a precolored opinion of me due to it, thats fine. I never intentionally set out to hurt a persons feelings. Other people's opinions and feelings aren't my concern though. At the very least I'm consistant and I doubt that anyone will ever wonder what my stance is on any given subject. Karsh |
In fact, there are a couple of scriptures that CLEARLY say Jesus died for the Jews. If you take the New Testament as a whole, it's quite obvious that Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, etc. believed there was a whole litany of things a person needed to do to be "right with God." Essentially, it boils down to casting off old ways and ideas and becoming a new creature in the image of Christ. But how to acheive that seems to have required much elaboration (witness Paul's letters to the churches). Also, it is quite evident that Jesus, Paul, etc. preached a message of being reconciled with GOD, the father (Jehovah, God Almighty), and not with Christ. Christ was the means/path/example that allowed men to be reconciled with God. It is this message -- atonement with God Almighty -- that unifies the New Testament with the Old Testament. Personally, I don't apply the term "Christian" to myself because I don't believe the same things that most of modern Christianity believes. Frankly, I think the discipleship of Christ is currently in the "wilderness" period described in Revelation and elsewhere. In short, I think religion has run astray from the truths that the Bible contains. Put simply, modern Christianity is wrong. It teaches a false doctrine, not consistent with scripture. I don't expect anyone to agree with my view or to accept it. But I hope everyone would agree that the point of the Bible (and the point of Jesus' ministry, life and death as told in the Bible) is not to produce allegiance to one particular denomination or another. The point should be to have a real, concrete and positive impact on the believer's life. The end result of faith is not merely to worship Jesus but to reshape our lives in his image. |
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I have to remind myself to stay out of this forum. This is a gun board after all... Every thread contains the same three stock characters, the cocksure athiest who will not be swayed, the orthodox believer who can't quite put things into words that convey his faith effectively, and the guy who has his own concocted interpretation who says 2000 years of faith and tradition are wrong and he's the only one who has it right. (ETA: the grammar nazis are here too!) I guess I am cynical. I personally believe that Jesus is who He said he was, I am trusting Him for my salvation, I hope others do the same, but if you don't I really don't care. God calls who He calls, some people listen and others don't. In the meantime, if you love Liberty and freedom and believe in the rights of man, you are welcome in my fighting position any time, religious belief or lack thereof notwithstanding. In the end I guess we'll find out who is right and who was wrong. I'll have no regrets either way. |
The Jew's own scriptures state plainly that they would reject Christ. If you are going to base your belief or lack of belief on man's penchant for screwing things up and having a differing opinion I guess there's nothing I can sway you with. Following your logic, based on this board alone and the differing of opinions on everything from pie to politics to what kind of aftermarket crap to hang off your AR I am suprised you call yourself a gun owner... The mayhem and madness when it comes to the plethora of denominations is the result of human fallability and ambition. Jesus prayed that we'd all be one, of course we couldn't have that. Please Karsh, don't base your opinion of Christ's mission on we dipshits who claim to follow Him and yet screw it up at every turn. Again, I hope you find what you're looking for. I meant what I said, if you are for Liberty, Freedom, and the Rights of Man, you can share a foxhole with me any time (you too Bladeswitcher). |
You might measure up to YOUR standards, but that wasn't the question. What does GOD think of your performance? Even if you don't accept the authority of the Bible, you still have to address the arguments that it contains. I wasn't quoting the Bible to have you change your views "because the Bible says so" (although logically speaking, God would be the only one who would legitimately command such unquestioned obedience, simply because He is God), but to show you that the Bible does answer the questions you are asking. If the back of the Lysol bottle says Lysol is fatal if swallowed, you might honestly consider the possibility, even if you don't believe in the existence of Proctor and Gamble. But if you want an extra-Biblical discussion, fine. The detail and design of the external world testify to you that there is an Almighty Creator, and your internal conscience tells you that He requires you to behave according to His standards, yet you can't seem to avoid violating them. You know there is an external moral code and that you break it. How do you resolve your guilty conscience? |
My biggest and single most issue with religion is the supernatural aspect. I don't buy into god or jesus for the same reason I don't believe in the easter bunny or santa clause. If jesus were considered to be just another joe with a wise life plan I'd be alright with it. I have no issue with Budda. I think he spent a lot fo his life chasing something that he aleady had but who am I say he wasted his life? It's the point where I'm told that jesus was omnipotent or that there is some unseen intelligence watching everything I do that I get skeptical. If for some reason ther is some thing up there and he gets insulted at my questioning nature then to hell with him. Before I pledge my life to a person I'd know a little about his character. Why would it surprise you that I'm a gun owner though? Believe it or not I link my atheism directly with my gun ownership. Just as I won't depend on somebody else's opinion about how I should live my life, I won't depend on another person for the safety of my family or myself. Karsh |
Priceless. Atheist damns god to hell, even though he doesn't believe in god and, by extension, hell can't exist either. We allow these posts because......Hardshell? Hello....anybody modding.... |
Well, git dangit... Ive moved up from a moron to something that sounds better! Im an oxymoron! (Psssssst is that like that Oxyclean stuff on TV... 'cause that stuff sure looks handy)
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Why woud I care what your fictional god thinks of my performance as a human being? Hell, he hasn't seen fit to speak to anyone in several thousand years even by your accounts. If he's got an issue tell him to get in line and I'll get tohimin turn. I'm much more interested in my wife's opinion then I am your god's anyway.
WHy do I have to address anything the bible says? It's just a book of fiction. I don't rationalize my actions because I read "Stranger in a Strange Land" and I think a lot more of Robert Hienlein that I do of most people. I'd trust the Lysol bottle becasue there are standards that they have to test by. I can be assured that if they say it's fatal that somewhere there is a dead monkey to prove it. Even if I question it I can research it and every expert I question will tell me the same answer and give the same reasons. Hell, I can go kill my own monkey. It's called consistency and coroboration. Two things that bible can't come up with.
The detail of the world and natural selection show me the world to be a wonderful mixture of chaos and order finding a balance in any way they can. I behave in a certain manner because to do so gives me direct benefits. I am kind and honorable with others because they will return the kindness. I remain faithful to my wife, not because your god said it was a sin but becasue I gave my word that I would do so. I have no fear of divine retribution. I don't have to have that fear to act accordingly. I don't violate my standards because they are MY standards. To do so would be a failure on my part. I have no guilty concience to resolve. In the times in my life when I have commited actions to feel guilty about I rectified what I could and vowed not to repeat the ones I couldn't. It doesn't take a threat from big brother for me to behave. You argument hold to be true, just, and powerful if you make it to someone who already recognizes your god. Since I don't, it means nothing to me what your god demands or wants or threatens. So stop telling me that I'm gonna face judgement at his hands. bible at the bear. I'm sure he'll pray before he eats ya. Karsh |
You don't believe in Santa Clause iether but you perpatrate to your kids every year? Whats the difference? Karsh |
I was trying to draw a comparison between the vastly differing opinions of those here on ARfcom (MANY different opinions, schools of thought, etc but all of us united by our BRD) and the differing denominations of Christianity (MANY different opinions, schools of thought, etc but all of us seeking to follow Christ). Probably a poor analogy. Anyway Karsh, God bless you and your family. I am not one of those Christians who condemns those who don't believe the same way I do. |
I was trying to draw a comparison between the vastly differing opinions of those here on ARfcom (MANY different opinions, schools of thought, etc but all of us united by our BRD) and the differing denominations of Christianity (MANY different opinions, schools of thought, etc but all of us seeking to follow Christ). Probably a poor analogy. Anyway Karsh, God bless you and your family. I am not one of those Christians who condemns those who don't believe the same way I do. |
Now you have crossed over from debate/discussion to blatant disrespect/attacks. Poor taste aside, such is not allowed in this forum -- the only forum in which you seem to post, so you should know better by now. Please stop this. |
You raise a very good point. Why would a person who doesn't want to think about or discuss religious and spiritual topics frequent a religion forum? If you're 100 percent satisfied with your own view and the doctrine you've been taught, there isn't any reason to expose yourself to other views. Why eat when you're already full? |