Posted: 1/17/2007 10:28:03 PM EDT
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I'm not trying to troll, so Hardshell or VA, if this thread starts going downhill, please lock it sooner rather than later. Here's the background: I'm in a small, extremely conservative town. I like it here -- plenty of shooters, places to hunt, etc -- and for the most part have no problems. But (you knew there was a "but" didn't ya?) I'm pagan, which doesn't sit too well with some folks. I don't run around advertising it, and to run into me on the street you probably wouldn't know, but I don't hide it either. My boss and I have an understanding that since I do not observe the Christian holidays, I'll work Easter and Christmas and instead take time off around the Winter Solstice, which has worked well over the last few years. Here's the situation: Very fundamentalist Christian co-worker and head of the HR department has made it her mission to convert me. She's one of those that believes the earth was created in 7 of our days, the earth is 6000 years old, give or take a couple generations (I forget the exact number), dinosaur bones don't really exist because dinosaurs do not appear in the Bible, evolution does not occur even on a micro level, etc. At times she makes the Amish look progressive. I get told almost every time I run into her that I'm going to burn in hell if I don't accept Jesus. Now, I get told that often, even here at arfcom, but I don't think it has any place at work. I'd take it to my boss, but the problem is she's got the ear (and other body parts if office gossip has any truth behind it) of my boss' boss. I don't want to put my boss in a situation where he'd be risking his job, since he does have a family with two very young kids, but at the same time I don't like the idea of jumping hierarchy, especially since it'd mean going to the VP with it. So, I'm open to advice on the condition that it stays repsectful of both my beliefs and all parties involved -- in short, don't tell me to convert, and try to keep the namecalling to a minimum 
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This is just my opinion. When an individual (you) states that he has received and understood a message, and the message sender (very fundamentalist Christian co-worker and head of the HR department) understands the individual (you) have declined to take action on that message, then in the context of that message, the message should not be repeated. If her position in HR is in any way used to influence you to take action on that same message, that is wrong. I would state most accurately to the HR lady that you understand her message, yet you won't take action. I'd also explain you find the repeated insinuations that you are going to burn in hell highly offensive, and you'd appreciate it if she would stop. If that didn't work, I'd either go up the chain of command, or consider an attorney. |
| You make no mention of what you've said in response, so if you haven't already politely told her to stop bringing this up you need to do it soon. If she persists I'd say that constitutes creating a hostile work environment, and I think we all know the trouble that can make for a company. I'd request a meeting with your boss and his boss at the same time to discuss it before filing suit though. |
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I'm a Christian, and I can't convert you. I don't want to convert you. I want what God has for you. Many Christian's, especially among women and men raised (either in whole or spiritually) by their mothers, feel like they can change a person. That's hogwash, all a Christian can do is pray for someone, present an example to someone, let the Holy Spirit lead and be available to be used of the Spirit. There is a special promise, to Christians, in that the children they raise up will return if taught, is not promised to people who are not their children. The Christians, the few remaining in this nation, don't know who or what they really are because they don't read all of the bible...they pick and choose. This is part of the paganization of America. How can someone say they are Christian and believe certain things in the bible, then say parts (they don't like or can't reconcile) are hooey. I dunno. At least you know who you are. If she is testifying to you, she is directed to do so...but so many people, especially women, try to do the job themselves...for Christians that's called unsanctified mercy and produces the "God is love" crowd that leaves out the rest of who He is. The bible teachs God hates human goodness...which is what unsanctified mercy is, something coming from a person's desire, not God's. I've a Master's in Petroleum Engineering from Tulane University in New Orleans and I work daily with geologists in the oil industry. The specilization for myself and geologists, working in the oil business, is sedimentary rock. The very best geologists (successful, who find oil and gas reserves) do not on a whole believe the slow ancient earth myths you have been taught by elementary and high school teachers. In fact, there is a large segment of Earth Scientist who reject the slow earth theories but can't get the time of day from the media due to close mindness. The events that happened to create formations and "ancient" reservoirs, beaches, eolian dunes, etc, happened at a "rapd pace" in relation to the old notions (18th, 19th, 20th centuries teachings you learn in school and hear on TV) and were changed by faster, cataclysmic events. Remember, for the most part (and I'm going to get flamed here) school teachers (many not all) were college dropouts from the more difficult curricula who could not hack the math, science and more involved studies or did not do well in them and had to settle for a teaching job. If you're happy and secure in your pagan beliefs, have fun while it lasts. |
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Either you misunderstood her, she doesn't know what she is talking about, or she is reading a different bible then I am. I'm not sure you have this right... "dinosaur bones don't really exist because dinosaurs do not appear in the Bible". I'm a Christian and of course they exist and yes they are mentioned in the Bible. I don't know any Christian that believes "dinosaur bones don't really exist". ETA: Natalbany_River is right... all a Christian can do is pray for someone, present an example to someone, let the Holy Spirit lead and be available to be used of the Spirit. |
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Sweetly and politely tell her, "Thank you for your message," and walk away. When she tells you you are going to hell again, tell her, "Thank you for the message, again," and walk away. Everytime she tells you, thank her and walk away...but do so with a saccharin smile. Sooner or later she will let it go and you have NOT crossed any lines. Although, IMHO, she's pushing harassment buttons. When I was in my late teens, I worked with a woman who INSISTED on asking you CONSTANTLY if you'd been, "Born Again." I had NO IDEA WHAT THAT MEANT AT 17.  When she explained that "Only those who were born again could enter the kingdom of Heaven," I said simply, and earnestly, that *I* believed God accepted those of us who were born once just as he does those who were born twice. She left me alone after that. Your faith (or lack of) is a private matter. And is nobody's business unless you CHOOSE to share it. |
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Read the company's employee handbook. Read the available non-discrimination laws. catalogue or put in writing the time, place, things said, etc. What you are describing is the creation of a 'hostile work environment' which is illegal and can put the whole operation in serious hotwater. As an executive myself I am EXTREMELY careful to not allow religious differences (and other differences) to affect business relationships. So once you've put together the case (in writing), you have two options. Write her a formal letter (not email) and mail it to her asking her to cease and desist.... or present this to your boss so he can go to HIS and the company's lawyer. Once the lawyer gets this, he or she will most likely see red and the HR will get a dressing down regardless of her 'inside' angle with the top boss. It's one thing to be evangelized or even good-naturedly teased about something...that happens all the time. But to be haranged constantly (and threatened with hell fire) when it's obvious that isn't good natured banter, is to really cross the line of legality. IT'S NOT AS BAD as it would be if your boss was doing this... but it's not good for a company's bottom line for these sorts of bad feelings to be spread by HR. |
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Document, document, document. Keep a journal and post in it immediately what she says and when she says it. Make record of any witnesses present. *If* it would be legal where you live, use a concealed tape recorder. Talk to one or more attorneys exploring civil rights and workplace harassment issues. You're not just doing it for yourself, you're doing it for every one of us who are not of the culturally dominant religion. Forty years ago as a young child I endured the exact same thing from multiple school teachers -- and there was no legal recourse back then. I care. Feel free to PM me anytime. This can be a lonely road, and I've had nearly 5 decades of experience at it. |
Get the handbook and highlight the harassment clause and give it to her next time she pulls this.
could you please provide scriptural documentation of god hating it when I hold the door open for an old lady, just because I don't do it "in jesus's name" |
Isaiah 64 (NIV):
And again in Romans 3:
Basically, the best that human goodness can achieve on its own is not good enough for God. Therefore, Jesus entered the picture. Back to Romans 3:
I hope this is what you were looking for when you asked the question. ETA: Spelling , and the apparent hi-jack. Back to the topic, I'd say you need to ask her ONCE to stop bringing it up during work hours. Obviously, if you agree to meet with her during NON-work hours, then that's your deal. If she doesn't stop, then document every time this happens and talk to the VP. If you aren't comfortable with that, contact your states' Attorney General. That keeps your boss out of the loop a bit (for awhile), and forces the situation. Man, you say she's the HEAD of HR? Yikes. As a practicing Christian myself, I am appalled by her behavior in the workplace.  ESPECIALLY as a HR person. Somebody needs a reality check. Just hope it doesn't lead to "sensitivity training" for everyone at work. Those classes are the worst. 
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No, thats exactly what she said she believes. In any case, that wasn't what i was asking about. Edited because "said" isn't spelled "says"
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Thanks for the advice -- I've started documenting it, asked her (again) to refrain from discussing the topic with me while at work, documented THAT, and will continue to do so for the rest of the week if it takes that long for her to get the point -- if it hasn't stopped by then, I'll take it to my boss, and let him decide wether to take it to his boss or to take it up to the VP. That follows the handbook, and the documentation of the problem should help avoid any reprocussions against me or my boss, who, as I've said, is a good guy. Anyway, thanks again for the advice, and for keeping it on-topic and respectful. |
A bit unfair/overstated, don't you think?  Misguided and inappropriate? Yes, IMO. Actionable? Maybe. Probably. (Almost certainly, if it continues.) But if she truly belives that she can save the OP from eternal torment (as it seems) and that it is her duty to do so, attempting to do so is in no way "crazy" IMO. (No matter how inappropriate the venue.) |
"Financial damages"?? Yeah, sure, because that is the honorable thing to do, sue for "damages". I do find it unusual to find men debating a women's gynecological procedure. |
What if you were the employee and a fanatical Scientologist were trying to convert you? It might seem like a crazy lady. But since you're on her "team" it is unfair/overstated. |
It would best be used as a threat to get her to back off. Obviously, she does not understand english. When you are on the job and the person is in HR, you are a captive audience. |
Same test applies IMHO. If her beliefs are sincere, her actions are not crazy IMO. Please note, I agreed that they were excessive and inappropriate for the workplace, regardless of the doctrine in question -- my problem was your description of her as crazy, and I would have had the same objection no matter what her beliefs. You could make the argument that her beliefs themselves are crazy (or that all such beliefs are crazy), but comments of that nature are not advised in this forum.  As to me being on "her team" and basing my opinions/comments accordingly, you must not be very familiar with me... I spend more time here defending folks whose beliefs I do not share than anything else, and I sincerely believe in (and advocate) their rights to have those beliefs and express them here. Short version: It was unfair/overstated, and you couldn't be more wrong about me. OTOH:
Personally insulting the "other team" seems to be your SOP. Troll here at your own risk... |
The "crazy lady" continually condemns the guy to hell. She does this at work. She has been denied by him repeatedly. She keeps trying to force her religion on him. I am sick and tired of people trying to write this behavior off as less than it is, crazy. It creates a hostile work environment. If you 've never experienced one, than it sounds like some politically correct B.S. But if you have, you know how bad it sucks. So you can candy coat it all you want, but she's crazy. |
No candy-coating, I strongly disagree with your assessment and suspect it is disingenuous, at best. (Especially in light of your other recent threads/posts in this forum... you have my attention, for good or bad.)  bala_shark, my humble apologies for this hijack. I hope some of the earlier responses were helpful and sincerely hope that the harassment (and that is how I see it) ends. 
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No problem with the hijack -- suing isn't my style, as I'd prefer to earn a buck than use the courts to steal one -- someone wants to take on a mod, well, as they say, "its like a train wreck, I know it won't end well, but I have to keep watching"  In any case, update time: I did end up having to take it to my boss since repeated and documented requests to stop didn't have any effect. He took it to his boss and the VP and the harassment stopped immedietly thereafter, with an apology from the VP, and the suggestion that if it happen again, let him know ASAP. My boss was a little surprised that I put up with it as long as I did, and said I really should have brought it up earlier. So to everyone, thanks for the advice, I think it all worked out well. |
| Lennster, you need to read the tacked announcement thread at the top of this forum--authored by GoatBoy. Then you need to abide by it. You do not make psychiatric diagnosis in this forum. I'd suggest not posting further in this thread--and perhaps not in this forum. |