Posted: 12/7/2006 4:59:23 PM EDT
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I know I am very new to this forum. But there is a question I struggle with that you all from a religious view may be of great help to me. I am very interested in hearing your opinion on this both from a scriptural standpoint and personal thoughts. I have heard many times from many Christians that in order for there to be true healing after a traumatic event such as a rape, murder of a family member, or violent attack, that you must forgive the person who did it. We are to forgive an infinite number of times the wrong doings of others. But there is a passage about leaving your offering at the alter, going to those you have wronged, make amends to them and then return to the altar. The question is deeper still. Can you expect forgiveness for you own sins if you do not forgive others their indescretions against you? Though, based on my faith I know I should forgive, what if the person has not sought that from me? This is where I get stuck and draw a blank. How do you do this? |
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The Bible is clear that we reap what we sow and that our forgiveness from God will be affected by the measure that we forgive others. Forgiveness does not require any participation of the one who is being forgiven or upon their seeking it from you. You just release them in your heart and ask God to bless them out of obedience to God. Their wanting or deserving forgiveness is irrelevent because you are doing it unto the Lord and not based on them at all. In the same way that God chose to forgive us regardless of our asking for it or deserving it. This does not mean that this kind of obedience is always easy. |
The Bible says we will be judged just as we judge others. If you are refusing or denying forgiveness to an individual who has asked for it for actions (sins) against you, how can you expect to receive forgiveness to yourself for your own actions (sins) against God? If a person has not sought forgiveness from you, the most righteous action you can take is to offer your forgiveness freely. Despite how "good" you may feel in refusing forgiveness and/or seeking revenge, you will never experience the peace and joy in your heart that comes from forgiving the "unforgivable". Imagine where we would be if God chose to refuse forgiveness of us? Prayer, along with the comforting knowledge you are acting righteously and selflessly by offering forgiveness to the unforgivable is the only way to can do this. Again, try to contemplate the seriousness of the situation we would be in were God to refuse forgivenss of our own sins. Check out 2nd Corinthians 2:10 |
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Kratos that was incredibly wise and insightful. This may be the shortest thread in the history of the religion forum. It has never occured to me to simply forgive out of obedience to God. I have searched beyond all the feelings that come with violence. I could only come up with recognizing the person as a child of God and praying that eventually he would seek Gods forgeiveness, knowing full well he would never seek mine. I did realize that in the end, God's justice, is beyond my human weak understanding And the heavens would be just as glad to receive this person in repentence as they would a saint who never wronged anyone. That is hard to accept and yet isn't that grace? Thank you Kratos. |
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Quoted: I know I am very new to this forum. But there is a question I struggle with that you all from a religious view may be of great help to me. I am very interested in hearing your opinion on this both from a scriptural standpoint and personal thoughts. I have heard many times from many Christians that in order for there to be true healing after a traumatic event such as a rape, murder of a family member, or violent attack, that you must forgive the person who did it. We are to forgive an infinite number of times the wrong doings of others. But there is a passage about leaving your offering at the alter, going to those you have wronged, make amends to them and then return to the altar. The question is deeper still. Can you expect forgiveness for you own sins if you do not forgive others their indescretions against you? Though, based on my faith I know I should forgive, what if the person has not sought that from me? This is where I get stuck and draw a blank. How do you do this? If a person has not sought forgiveness from you, the most righteous action you can take is to offer your forgiveness freely. Despite how "good" you may feel in refusing forgiveness and/or seeking revenge, you will never experience the peace and joy in your heart that comes from forgiving the "unforgivable". Imagine where we would be if God chose to refuse forgiveness of us? Prayer, along with the comforting knowledge you are acting righteously and selflessly by offering forgiveness to the unforgivable is the only way to can do this. Again, try to contemplate the seriousness of the situation we would be in were God to refuse forgivenss of our own sins. Forgiving the unforgiveable is the hard part. |
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Angelfire, I do not know if you are looking for only Christian input or not. But there is a Buddhist saying that anger is like a hot coal, it only burns the hand that holds it. If the wisdom of another faith tradition is for any reason offensive to you, I apologise, and hope you can just take it as 'an old folk saying'. As a secularist (Deist) I am under no divine instruction that I must or even should forgive. But I find it the wise thing to do, for my own good. Not forgive them, like everything is fine, as though the wrong never happened, but by looking at grievous wrong as being a sign of the evildoer's ignorance, and move on. Let them revel in it or wallow in it -- I may still suffer physical (or financial, whatever) consequences from it, but really down deep -- it no longer effects me. Just another event in life to leave behind. I try not to let evildoers live rent-free in my head. |
 Well I haven't been able to get a dime out of any of them. So I reckon the best thing to do is just evict them. That's my version of forgiveness. |
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In my own life I've allowed bitterness to fester in my heart. I can tell you that it is a poison. That bitterness allowed others to continue hurting me long after they were out of my life. Forgiveness is like a balm that heals that bitterness. Even if the other person is unrepentent, I still need to apply that balm to my own heart. What more, I sincerely hope that other people will forgive me for wrongs I've done, perceived or real. I especially need the Lord to forgive me. How can I ask the Lord to forgive me if I'm unwilling to do the same? Having said that, I recognize that there are consequences to actions. Forgiviness doesn't excuse the rapist. A cheater should still be held accountable. Whatever the consequences the guilty party faces, I need to remove the bitterness from my own heart through forgiveness. |
| This is a very difficult subject for me. Not due to some horrible event in my past, just because the type of mindset required to be infinitely forgiving is not innate to my personality. At a retreat I recently attending, the speaker ended his lecture series with the statement, "Remember, there is no sin greater than God's mercy." I pondered that for a while, and came to the conclusion that held to that standard, I was a failure. The message made me realize how necessary God's mercy is, and how our salvation is contingent on that very mercy. I imagined the shear agony of Christ on the cross, asking forgiveness for those responsible for his death. Do I have that in me? Doubtful, very doubtful. I have a hard time not holding a grudge when my kids simply disobey, much less torture and kill me. I don't think we'll ever even approach the level of forgiveness that we are granted by him. |
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This is still a struggle for me. I have one side that desperately wants this anger and fear gone, to forgive. And I feel like failure because I can't completely let go. It creeps up on me. The simplicity of being obedient to God was profound however as much I try to let go sometimes I am overwhelmed by the loss and anger and fear. There is a side of that fear that is positive for me. Pushes me in a good direction. I fear becoming complacent or trusting. The anger is poison and not just for me but if I don't keep it in check for others around me to. Then there is the pressure I feel that forgiving is the right thing to do. I am lost on what that should be. Like I need some sort of a manual to follow. What is forgiving supposed to be. There is relief when I am forgiven and a drive to not put myself in a place where I have to seek that again ( repentance). BUT what is it to forgive all the way? I imagine a certain freedom but who get the freedom? |
There is one and only one way to do it, through grace. Do not think that you could ever do it of your own accord or strength. I do find it unusual to find men debating a women's gynecological procedure. |
If you forgive someone, it helps you, not them. They might not even know about it. |
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Rodent, That is where I am stuck. Help me how? Do the nightmares go away? The fear this person will create other victims? The powerlessness to do anything about it? I am lost right here. I have failed at forgiving? I forgive the violence of the act. I forgive choosing me. I forgive the person behind the violence...because this was most definitely driven clearly by pure evil. It took a long time to be able to see a human behind this at all. And I forgive the human. God did not create his soul with any less love than he created mine or my kids or yours. In thinking about this I realized there really is only one part I haven't forgiven. And I may grapple with it a little longer until I can get my head around that level of selfishness. And because of this discussion I am more driven to move past anything residual than ever before. There are worse things than this. Obedience to God and no sin greater than the grace earned by Christ! This is hard to ignore. Rodent I am not sure forgiveness is mine to give. It may be only Gods. But I'll keep going to the foot of the cross. |
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Angelfire, how would you view the idea of kind of mentally bundling the whole thing up for the time being and turning it all over to G-d, and praying something like "This is beyond my understanding right now, please take it off my shoulders for the time being. When enough time has passed, and with Your help I have developed greater strength and calm, then please let me look back upon it with deeper wisdom and a fresh sense of perspective to forgive in a healthy way." That wouldn't be refusing to forgive or not facing the issue, it would be asking G-d to be with you in developing the strength, wisdom and perspective to look back on this bad situation with greater clarity and understanding. And please bear in mind that there are some people out there, perhaps 1% to 5% of men (statistics are lower for women) who are narcissists and think only of themselves. Then there is yet another 1% to 5% or more of men who are sociopaths - they not only value only themselves, and feel no compassion or empathy for others, but they tend to act out in destructive ways and harm others. These people are just very, extremely different from the rest of humankind. They may be born that way, or become that way in early childhood. They themselves were likely abused horrendously as children. That does not excuse their behavior, but if it is the case, it may be part of an explanation for it. You might find that some reading up on the psychological aspects of narcissists and sociopaths will help you have much better understanding of the person who harmed you. There may come a time when you can see that he may have had no more choice in what he was and did than a calf born with two heads could help being a freak. Or maybe he did have total control. I certainly don't know. But praying to develop the wisdom, strength and perspective to view these memories in a healthier perspective all in good time and to eventually be able to forgive him in a way that is healthy for you does two important things It acknowledges responsibility to forgive -- and to do that forgiving in a healthy way. And it asks the G-d of your understanding to play the active role in helping you develop the insight necessary for that. Please remember that the word "forgiveness" has many different meanings -- some of them healthy, some of them not. For example, read this sentence: "His wife forgave him for robbing the bank because he bought her a fur coat." or "The boy forgave the trusted neighbor who molested him and let him keep doing it because Dad liked the man, and Dad is always right." Are either of those sentences healthy ways of "forgiveness"? No, of course not -- they are excusing the behavior as "OK" and giving permission for it to happen to them again. But mature forgiveness is a growth process that strengthens the one who does the forgiveness. Example "Over the years, she began to truly see that the man who robbed her been born retarded and had grown up with only criminals as role models." Does that mean she's going to trust him with the keys to her house? No way. But it does mean that she can move on with her life realising that in many way this world truly is a vale of tears, and that she can see what happened as part of a larger picture of a world which includes lots and lots of pain, fear and cruelty. And please bear in mind that sometimes -- but not often -- the evildoer actually seeks atonement. He repents, he asks for forgiveness, he wants to make things right. That sure makes it a lot easier to forgive in a healthy way. But in real life, that seldom happens. In real life, the wrongdoer may well have no concience at all and is laughing at having gotten away with his crime or cruelty. Forgiveness has nothing to do with him. Forgiveness has everything to do with his place in YOUR life. Forgiveness is between you and your Creator. Only you and your Maker are involved. And you already know that is very doable. The need for wisdom and perspective are to be able to do the forgiving in a mature and healthy way for you. and in a way that does honor to G-d. Consider telling G-d that you are willing to forgive, and that you are starting that process of forgiveness "right now" by asking G-d to help you grow to be able to forgive in the right way, not in a way which opens the door for more mistreatment, but in a way that strengthens you and does honor to your Maker. |
This is how it was for me ...i had not spoken the words of "The Lord's Prayer" in so long i forgot them and as i was slowly speeking them outloud i got hung up on "forgive us debts, as we forgive our debtors"... for me it was important to forgive those who have tresspassed against me before asking Heavenly Father for forgiveness of my tresspasses...we are also told to forgive Matthew 6:14-15 14. For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15. But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Mark 11:25-26 25. And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses. we know they speak of the same thing regardless of the difference in words...the message will always be the same...chris |
I don't know how you've been wronged, or by whom. And I may not be the right person to ask if you're coming at this from a religious viewpoint, because I don't. But I do know that you only have a certain number of days to live, and you obviously don't want to spend them dwelling on anger. You can do the work to move past whatever is holding you up. I know it's so much easier to say than do, but people get on with their lives after horrible things every day. Two things work for me, they sound goofy but: Go help other people. Read stories to kids in a cancer ward, whatever. Go camping alone. Three days in the woods with your thoughts will get you grounded and centered again. |
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There's a difference between forgiving someone and FEELING good about them. Just as there's a difference between faith and belief and faith and FEELING trust in the invisible God. To forgive is to renounce one's retribution on another - it's not to proclaim him guiltless or innocent. |
Then by this he is forgiven. I can impose no further retribution on him. I have no desire in that direction beyond what the legal system imposed. Just fear he will destroy another person, create another victim. There is a haunting sadness that can't be over come. I guess I was thinking if I truly had forgiven that would go away. Maybe not. I don't walk around limiting my life as a result. In fact I fill it as full as I can. THAT is the best revenge. If I live in fear then what he did owns me and I have empowered him even more. But by being alive, having faith... he renounced Christ....(my faith saved my life in this attack)... and by being successful, maybe he would fear "getting caught" again. In fact it may even be a dare to him in a reminding kind of way. |
There is a strain of that human sadness in all human affairs. All of our lives are touched by the crime or cruelty done by some to others. The only question is how immediate is the injury. In your case it was "immediate" and first-person of the most aggravated and egregious sort. But please consider this - ALL of us are affected to greater or lesser extent by the trickle-down effect -- both good and bad -- when cruelty and harm are done to others. Let's say a robber kills a convenience store owner. That deceased man's sister who owns another store now has to raise his children since his widow has gone into clinical depression. Overwhelmed, the sister puts her own store up for sale to pay for the kids' college. Now the neighborhood is missing two thriving businesses. The little old lady down the street used to go to the sister's store every day just to have some friendly human contact. Now she is all alone without a friend in the world. She ends her life with some sleeping pills. Her distant son is suddenly overwhelmed with guilt over her suicide and tries to drown his sorrows in scotch and drives his car into a van full of children... On the other hand, every one of is affected in some small way when a former victim finds the strength (as you have) to become a thriving survivor, and no longer a victim. Every one who knows your story is the stronger for it. We have another good example before us to prove that tragedy not only can be overcome, but that it is common and natural for us to overcome it.
Yep, in modern parlance, I would definitely say you "pwned him"{{{hugs}}} |
Maybe that is a loophole to get out of going to hell. Maybe if someone just doesnt judge anything anyone does as wrong, God will do the same with them. |
Thank you so much for all of this. You are amazing and insightful What you described is indeed the ripple affect it has had. What I will walk away with is that I need to keep moving forward and when it crops up... keep finding forgiveness. And to all the others. You all have helped and given me plenty to go on for future refference. All be blessed. |