Posted: 11/28/2006 8:15:53 AM EDT
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My wife and I attend a decent sized church (couple thousand member). This fall the Pastor who has been there since day one retired (sort of). The Pastor that was hired to replace him has started to do things that I find quite disturbing such as asking you to fill out cards stating just how much money you plan to give. Suggesting that money could be directly withdrawn from your account in case you're not at church one weekend. And the capper, stating that if you're not giving enough money to where it causes you to struggle at home you are not giving enough. Now here is the rough part. Most of our family attend the same church. I made the statement to my wife that I have no intention of going back to this church and now I've started a family rift. So, what should I do? |
Stick to your guns  Anyone who demands money is whack. Sounds like some Benny Hinn stuff... |
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Your new pastor is a little overboard but I have yet to be in 100% agreement with any pastor I've met. My pastor thinks "Pop & Rock" is Satan music but I'm going to Superchick Thursday. Did he himself suggest that money should be directly withdrawn or is it just taken this way? He may have come across this way and not even know it. I wouldn't jump ship quite yet. You have a new pastor, is he new to pastoring a church? There is an adjustment period for new pastors and more so with new NEW pastors. Be patient. If you have a problem talk with the pastor. I complain to my pastor sometimes. My pastor and I have some irreconcilable differences but that doesn't mean either of us should leave. Shok |
| Figuring a 10% tithe, a church with 3000 members, average income being $45k per family = $13.5 million per year tax free. Not bad jack for doing the Lord's work. I need to quit the insurance biz and convert to a denomination other than Catholic. Any churches out there hiring? |
Your pastor is a true MBA in the religion business. Some lessons are harder to learn. You don't need a church to pray. (Pastor is sizing up his next Escalade purchase, I bet) I grew up around a Catholic family and knew what sins money could buy you out of. I also had to listen to the priest slap people around to pay for the school tuitions, since the school was free, but paid for at the collection plate. Then came the church 'multi-purpose' building for just over $1Million dollars. Afterward was the implied need for a new altar, etc. etc., it just never ended. /doesn't go to church anymore //unfortunate greed |
Brings to mind an interesting question. What percentage of self-professed Christians pay tithing? And what percentage actually pay 10%? I'd be very grateful if anyone knows a link to this kind of information, even if it's someone's best estimate. |
I know the OT refers to a tithe, but cannot remember where. My brother is an associate pastor at a very large church. He does not get paid, but the head pastor does. He (the head pastor) just bought a new BMW 8 series to go with the new Mercedes he bought his wife. He spends a great deal of time on "vacation" in many exotic locales. My brother has a problem with this. The pastor is supposed to be the shepherd of the flock, not the tax collector and owner of the ranch too. I don't begrudge anyone for making a decent living, but raking in a few million per year after the expenses of the church is stealing IMHO. |
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I used to keep a PO box at a small location where the local "prosperity" pastor also kept his church's PO box. Many times, whenever I would check the box, I would be there at the same time as the pastor of this church: http://www.crossroadscathedral.com/ <--- please leave link cold He would drive up in one of his two rolls royces ( I do not exaggerate. A rolls royce is rather a rarity here in Oklahoma ). I often saw him in a black mink "pimp" coat, wearing his diamond rings and presidential Rolex. His mansion was less than two miles down the road, with acres of rolling landscape, gardens, outbuildings and a huge 9 ft tall gate with the initial S about 5 feet high on it. Everyone knew who lived there. One time I was talking with one of his parishioners, and I asked if he had ever considered going to a smaller more humble country style church, and how I often saw Pastor S. at the PO Boxes. "Oh, no, we are so blessed to have Pastor S..... blah blah blah..." I wonder if their Bibles even had the verses about the moneylenders at the Temple  |
Oh I know about tithes being mentioned in the Bible. I'm just curious what percentage of Christians today pay a tithe. My experience with tithing is unique. In fact, as a Bishop's counselor a few years back (and as a branch president a few years before) my responsibility was often to oversee the counting of tithes and making sure the moneys were deposited. In my church, few things will get a person excommunicated more quickly than fooling around with tithes. Yes, there are copius accounting practices in place to account for every penny. Then again, we have an unpaid clergy and the funds are used primarily for the purpose of building and maintaining chapels and such. |
Not a bad idea to have a proposed/estimated operating budget, especially if the church might be doing any major building/renovation/etc., IMHO. Personally, I can't really fault this one.
Many folks use this, by choice, as a convenient method for paying bills, making donations, etc. -- as long as it wasn't demanded, again I don't personally see a big issue with the suggestion.
Okay... there he lost me. If one wants to "give 'til it hurts" that's all fine and good... but IMHO one shouldn't do so grudgingly or under duress...
JMHO. 
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 The tax exempt organization recieves 13.5 million and pays its staff, buys books, does charity work, builds buildings etc... just like the Red Cross, Salvation Army, Habitat for Humanity, Soup kitchens, etc.... What's your point? |
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Us Catholics solved the problem by demanding our priests live poverty, don't personally own their living quarters or cars.... but it's not a total solution because corrupt men can always find ways around whatever safe guards better men put in place.... I suppose the protestants though, being less centralized have greater control over the local budget than your typical Catholic parishoner does. But then, our 'typical' parish consists of some 3000 FAMILIES, not members. To get these numbers you need to find Protestant mega-churches. Word of caution: success and lots of money is very tempting. It's a good thing to rotate men through every so often so they don't put down roots and get too easy on themselves. |
I know of two Christians that tythe "religiously." ( sorry,  ) One does not attend a church, but sends the tythe to the Salvation Army as well as various syndicated ministries to support radio and television broadcasts.Automatic transfers, in my opinion, are contrary to the reason for giving. Giving should be something you DO, not something that you have done. The actual act of giving is essential. It isn't just the sum that gets dropped in the coffers that matters. I would not fill out one of those cards either. What, when, and why I give is between me and GOD. It is nobody elses business. It sounds as if faith is not a "factor" in the figuring with that pastor. |
My point is yes, there will be expenses, but Jesus never called anyone to become fat off the backs of the flock. Consider if a pastor keeps 10% for himself, that is still $1.35 millions. I don't know if there is a "going rate" or acceptable standard among churches for what they pay pastors, but considering the tremendous amount of truly needy people in our area alone, seeing a pastor living in a million dollar home and driving multiple $100k+ vehicles sends a bad message. Maybe it is just me. 
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It IS scandalous for pastors of any denomination to live ostentatiously - big home, big car, big hair....when simpler fair could be used. Of course the workman is worth his wages, so if some pastor puts in 120 hour weeks for the flock, is available 24/7, doesn't just preach but also provides counselling, marriage prep, invalid, hospital and prison ministry, etc.... then sure, paying him a "professional" level salary makes perfect sense. Doubly so if he's married and has kids. The problem seems to be that there's no hard and fast rule or % for how much is too much...alot of wiggle room here. But again, with great power (and budgets) comes great responsibility (and the threat of corruption). There are some structural safeguards churches and companies put in place, for example, boards who have final authority over the President and CEO, annual audits to make sure all funds went to the proper things... You might talk about price caps - essentially living evangelical poverty; not being wretchedly poor, but being able to live simply and tastefully.... doesn't mean the pastor or associates can't go on vacations, but ought to mean they're not wasteful. Sometimes churches hold meetings of elders to write down new policies for the salary of pastors whom THEY hire. I can think of a dozen solutions to this problem other than you simply leaving the church (though, naturally my best option would be for you to come home to the Catholic Church, but since that's the spiritual equivalent of inviting people to come join us on the front lines, it's not for the faint of heart.) |
It is not just you. The part I am wondering about is how being a "denomination other than Catholic" plays a part in this? The pastor's pay is probably set by the Deacon board (who are elected from the flock) and approved by the flock, you know, the people that actually pay his salary. Yes it is a bad message, but so is a Pope-mobile and a whole darn Pope-country or any other "broadening of their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments, loving places of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the temples." Denomination has nothing to do with it. Arrogance is arrogance, weather Kim Jong Il the athiest, Jimmy Swaggart or the Pope is the one being arrogant. |
Where did you get the "denomination other than Catholic" notion? Certainly not from my posts. I assure you, that isn't what I intended. With regard to the Pope, there is a great difference. The Pope is not only the Spiritual head of the Catholic faith, he is also the Head of State for the Vatican. The Vatican is a country in and of itself. While its borders lie completely within Rome, it is a nation. Also, there have been numerous attempts on the lives of Popes throughout history. The leader of Calvary Christian Church of Podunk, S. Dakota (for example) is neither a head of state or the head of a faith with hundreds of millions faithful. As far as the attempts on his/her life goes, I can't speak for that. |
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My wife and I have tithed 10% for over 20 years since when we were first married. The Bible is clear that this belongs to God and we can bring a curse upon ourselves if we rob God in the tithe and in offerings (Mal. 3). The real question is should this be required by a church. I would say NO because we are no longer under the law and in the New Covenant each is to give as they purpose in their own heart to give. We are tithers by choice and not of necessity, but we do not put this on anyone else. The real question is what is the tithe for and how should it be used. The Bible says that it is a corporate storehouse so there will be meat in time of need. It is like in a farming community where any family can suddenly loose their crop and starve so they all agree to give 10% of their increase to a community storehouse that all can eat out of when they have a bad year. It was the original welfare systm. We have two other ministers besides myself and we all work full time jobs so we do not have to use the tithe to live off of since we are all able bodied and have time to work. Paul did the same as he made tents so that he would not need to take from the common money. Anyone in the congregation that has a need can come to the elders and if it is something unplanned for that they cannot pay, we pay it out of the tithes. We just had a widow all the way in Texas (we are in Wash. State) who use to be a member here and moved with her husband so he could be with his family while dying call and ask us to help her come home. I will be flying down there soon to drive her and the U-haul with her stuff back up here and the trip both ways will be paid for out of the tithes of the members. That is what the tithe is for so there will be help in time of need. There was a time 15 years ago where our fellowship at the time had grown to the point that I was needed full time. I set in the bylaws that paid ministers who are full time will be paid an average of the income of the members. Thus, every 6 months we multiplied all of the tithing member's tithe times 10 to figure their family income. We then added these incomes and divided by the number of members in the group and this was the average income of our flock so that is what my family received. I just figured that if I did my job and taught the people how to prosper by believing God then my income would go up, but if not, then I would go down with them. This way, I would always be able to relate to where others were and not be so above the flock in income to where I could not understand what it meant to ask for a certain amount of miney from them. This seemed the fairest to me. Jesus came so He could be a faithful priest by being touched with the feelings of our infirmities and that seemed like a good example to be set before me. Instead of the Pastor getting paid like the doctors, lawyers, and CEOs in the congregation and loose his ability to relate to the what the average member goes through trying to get by in our local economy. |
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Don't want to distract from the theme but as an aside to clarify something... If Pastor Bob of the first second church of Jesus feels called to build a $10m huge theater-like 'mega-church' so as to fit his congregation of 10,000 people, I for one, as a Catholic don't have any problem with him doing that. Ditto if he makes $120,000 A YEAR in salary, provided his leadership and hard work grew the group from 2,000 Believers to the juggernaught of 10,000. If he's so successful in evangelization that the spirit of the world starts a persecution against him in the form of snipers, I for one, as a Catholic, have zero issue with the Mega-church hiring a body guard for him, or armouring up a sedan for him to use when he's on church business.... seems like an obvious bargain to protect a man who has done so much for his group of believers. If the local township is full of Marxists (cough) like Ann Arbor, MI (cough), and the church is constantly harassed by neighboring atheists for all symbolism and song 'noise' and so decided to purchase a 106 acre spread outside of town on which to build their $10m facility - far from the professionally annoyed neighbors, and in addition they require the county sherrif's department to direct traffic every Sunday when their 5000 cars spill in and out of the parking lot.... I as a Catholic have zero problems with this. It makes perfect sense to pay a top-earning CEO or pastor a professional level salary, to protect his person from aggressive nut-jobs, and to insulate the Church from aggressive politicians by having enough land to buffer out "the world". But this is exactly why the Papal States were originally developped - to liberate the Church from state control, to provide the 'freedom' needed for the church to develop separate from the state.... And this is also why an armoured Pope-mobile is necessary in the post 1981 era with Islamofascism on the rise. The Pope's budget (Holy See) is about $350m - about that of a mid-size US University. The Pope doesn't "make" $350m or even enjoy the use of that - that's what's needed to run the Vatican City State, employ some 2000 people, keep the lights on, maintain the ancient buildings, etc. Yet people begrudge him even that - as though they don't have analogues to this very same budget. Focus on the Family has as big a budget but no one begrudges Dr Dobson for his 'wealth' or the power of his franchise. |
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The church I attend the Pastors salary and Staff are fixed. The amount they are paid does not fluctuate with the amount of money taken in. Any raise requires the approval of the Church board of Deacons and members. If the members are not tithing the Pastor has a bigger problem. It shows a lack of faith in God. The earth is the Lord's and everything in it. The world and all who live in it.. Psalm 24:1 Will a man rob God? but you ask How do we rob you? In tithes and offerings. You are under a curse, the whole nation of you because you are robbing Me. Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse,that there may be food in My House. Test Me in this says the Lord Almighty, and see ifI will not throw open the floodgates of Heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room to contain it. Malachi 3:8-10 Everything belongs to God, even your money. If you cannot willingly tithe and give back some of what God blessed you with, Its a lack of Faith on the part of the individual. Titheing works, I have gone thru some job problems the last few years. I now make less then I did in the 90's have to work more hours for less. Unemployment, benefit cuts etc. Yet I never stopped tithing, My bills are always paid, I have a roof over my head, food. I even paid off my morgtage while on unemployment. Its just works, I can't explain it except its God. If church members would tithe, And the church would do its job off taking care of people like its supposed to. Acts 6:1 Instead of Government. It would better serve the needs of people then Government programs. I think I am getting a little off track with what this thread was about, I have read some things about money and titheing in previous threads and just wanted to share how I feel. |
Catholic priests do not get big salaries at all. He was making a joke about going into the ministry in order to make lots of money. Becoming a Catholic priest would run contrary to this. |
For the record, I am Catholic. As loonybin stated, I was making a remark in jest about becoming a minister to make more $$. 
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The point, beside the one on top of your head  would be that wildearp could start a tittie church. Dollars in the g-strings of the server and greeter girls. Tax free. Exempt. Soup kitchens. Chowder kitchens. wildearp would have a lear jet to fly about and recruit followers. Praise the lowered!!! (a little lowrider, donny, a little low rider) [/nick cage]
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Time for a dispassionate response from a "non-believer" who has no stake in it either way... He's asking and suggesting. Nothing wrong with that. Probably just means he's fiscally responsible, proactive, and trying to shore up an existing budget. Will everyone give until it hurts? Of course not. Many won't give at all. Some will give a lot. I think he's just trying to plan and budget. You have a budget at home, right? You like to know how much is coming in every month, right? Have you considered that the church might be having problems financially? I agree with the "ask the elders what's going on". If he (pastor) is asking, and the elders don't disagree, by not speaking out, you might conclude that they must be on the same page as the pastor. The church might really be in need, perhaps more than ever before, and they don't want to let on. Desperate statement? Sure. He knew it when he said it. Maybe his feet are being held to the fire by pressure from the elders. There needs to be a meeting, not a regular church service, but a "business meeting" where this can all be laid out. The church is what you, and others, make of it. It's your time and your money that's invested. You deserve to at least know some generalities. If there's financial trouble looming on the horizon, you need to know about it now, so you can help take care of it, not find out when it's too late. As far as your personal situation. Keep going to preserve the peace in YOUR house and stop worrying about the peace in GOD'S house. Discuss with your wife your current level of giving and see if she's okay with continuing that until you find out more. |
I think in the SBC the average church members gives 2%. Thats an average of everyone. Of course some give above the 10%. |
HardShell, I think you are right on. |