Self-defense and Scripture > Religion

Posted: 9/17/2006 8:25:51 PM EDT

I'm having a discussion with a friend (conservative Christian like me) and her point of view is that if someone is going to kill her, she would let them do it, as her soul is OK and odds are theirs is not.

Judging from the example of Christ, it seems that this is the pattern that Christians are to follow..... or is it? What, based on Scripture, do you guys think is the right/duty of the christian regarding self defense? Or is it an American idea not really founded in Scripture?

Discuss.

For what it's worth, she would be willing to kill someone to protect someone else, just not herself.

Posted: 9/17/2006 8:45:37 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
I'm having a discussion with a friend (conservative Christian like me) and her point of view is that if someone is going to kill her, she would let them do it, as her soul is OK and odds are theirs is not.

Judging from the example of Christ, it seems that this is the pattern that Christians are to follow..... or is it? What, based on Scripture, do you guys think is the right/duty of the christian regarding self defense? Or is it an American idea not really founded in Scripture?

Discuss.

For what it's worth, she would be willing to kill someone to protect someone else, just not herself.

I have a duty to God. That is to be a good witness (I needs lots of work) and reach the lost. Unless I am being killed because of my fiith, I will defend myself. IF its deny Christ or die type of thing, then I will prepare for death.

Posted: 9/18/2006 4:13:51 AM EDT

[#2]

I wrote a 8-pg paper on the church and concealed carry. It includes a discussion of Biblical self-defense, and a number of other things.

Anyone who wants a copy, just EMAIL me (no IM's please)

Posted: 9/18/2006 4:32:13 AM EDT

[#3]

Posted: 9/18/2006 4:36:10 AM EDT

[#4]

It's one of the reasons newer translations use the word murder instead of kill.

Still if you read the teachings of Christ, that's a stretch.

None of us are perfect, only Christ was.

Tj

Posted: 9/18/2006 5:57:46 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
It's one of the reasons newer translations use the word murder instead of kill.

Still if you read the teachings of Christ, that's a stretch.

None of us are perfect, only Christ was.

Tj

I know that, but his example was not one of using deadly force to protect his own life. But yes, I know 'murder' is a better translation than 'kill' and that the 'turn the other cheek' teaching refers more to insult than assault.

It's true that we are not perfect, but we are to follow Christ's example, correct?

Posted: 9/18/2006 6:23:06 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:
It's one of the reasons newer translations use the word murder instead of kill.

Still if you read the teachings of Christ, that's a stretch.

None of us are perfect, only Christ was.

Tj

I know that, but his example was not one of using deadly force to protect his own life. But yes, I know 'murder' is a better translation than 'kill' and that the 'turn the other cheek' teaching refers more to insult than assault.

It's true that we are not perfect, but we are to follow Christ's example, correct?

Well definately murder is a better translation when taken into context with Jewish Law and the Old Testiment, however there is little doubt about Jesus feelings on loving ones enemy.

I think one of the hardest things anyone has to learn to accept is nobody can live completely up to the standards of Christ. All we can do is do our best.

What role motivation plays in sin has always been a deep well for thought. It is one thing to say I will die rather than kill and another to say I will die despite my family suffering or dieing. This whole motivation thing comes up time and time again throughout Christian history and is exemplified in the stories, Operas, etc, that surround Faust.

On a personal level, I hope and pray I never have to kill anyone. That's where my heart is, however I know under the right circumstances, I would. I therefore do my best to avoid those circumstances. If I did would it present a moral delima? I have little doubt.

Tj

Posted: 9/18/2006 6:30:23 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

It's true that we are not perfect, but we are to follow Christ's example, correct?

When you are tasked by God to be the Saviour of the whole world, THEN you definitely should not resist your murder.

Until then, you should have the same attitude God has towards life - defend it and protect it and take a dim view of those who murder.

Posted: 9/18/2006 6:59:04 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:

It's true that we are not perfect, but we are to follow Christ's example, correct?

When you are tasked by God to be the Saviour of the whole world, THEN you definitely should not resist your murder.

Until then, you should have the same attitude God has towards life - defend it and protect it and take a dim view of those who murder.

If that is the qualification, then do we not have to follow Christ's example in anything else?

Also, all of the apostles were martyred, according either to Scripture or church tradition, and the early church in Rome seemed to adopt strict pacifism.

I agree with all of you for the most part; just playing devil's advocate for the sake of this discussion.

Posted: 9/18/2006 7:04:30 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:

It's true that we are not perfect, but we are to follow Christ's example, correct?

When you are tasked by God to be the Saviour of the whole world, THEN you definitely should not resist your murder.

Until then, you should have the same attitude God has towards life - defend it and protect it and take a dim view of those who murder.

If that is the qualification, then do we not have to follow Christ's example in anything else?

Also, all of the apostles were martyred, according either to Scripture or church tradition, and the early church in Rome seemed to adopt strict pacifism.

I agree with all of you for the most part; just playing devil's advocate for the sake of this discussion.

I saw this reply coming.

Posted: 9/18/2006 7:08:30 AM EDT

[#10]

Wasn't there just a big thread on this very topic???

FWIW our lives are a gift from God. We need to value that gift, and that means not allowing anything bad to happen to us and ours.

Why else would Jesus say "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. " (Luke 22:36) (context is everything I do realize but what else is a sword used for, but fighting?)

Posted: 9/18/2006 7:09:46 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

If that is the qualification, then do we not have to follow Christ's example in anything else?

Also, all of the apostles were martyred, according either to Scripture or church tradition, and the early church in Rome seemed to adopt strict pacifism.

I agree with all of you for the most part; just playing devil's advocate for the sake of this discussion.

Here's my position -

Unless they personally asked me to do otherwise, I would be willing to die defending the lives of all OTHER people for all things from any murderer. I would use deadly force in that defense.

For myself, I'd be willing to use deadly force defending my life in all situations OTHER THAN in defense of the Chrisitan faith.

Biblical Christians have NEVER been pacifists in the modern sense of the word.

Posted: 9/18/2006 7:45:02 AM EDT

[#12]

My apologies up front for this reply's length, but I've always thought this was a good treatment of the subject and I don't want to post only in part without the full context:

Christians and firearms -- May a Christian defend himself using deadly force?

Lesson outline used by Ed Kelleher speaking at assembly of West Columbia Church of Christ, Sunday 11AM March 3, 2002, West Columbia, South Carolina. The lesson follows this outline, but there are some additions and deletions from this outline in the lesson audio tape/file.

Note: [read the bracketed scripture from KJV]

Good morning, thank you for being here.

[2 Peter 1:3] "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and Godliness, through the knowledge of Him that hath called us to glory and virtue"

I've preached and taught in Russia and in prisons, to people I'll likely never see again. You know what I try and get across to people that I might only have a few minutes with? That the Bible is God's word. It has the answers we need. In it, God has given us all things we need for life, spiritual life that is, and Godliness. We'll find them if we diligently seek for them.

My lesson this morning is based on that belief. I'm not here to say, "This is the way it is". But, rather, "This is what the scripture says about this". Thus, I'll read the scriptures, rather than quote them (or misquote them) from memory so your faith will be in God's word, and not mine. I make mistakes and might misspeak. God doesn't.

Well, there are several ways Christians might be involved with firearms. They might sell them as a business endeavor. They might use them recreationally or for hunting. They might use them on the job as policemen or soldiers. They might have nothing to do with them, or they might use them for self-defense. It's this latter usage I'd like to consider this morning.

May a Christian defend himself by using deadly force, a firearm? When we think of Bible commands like, "Thou shalt not kill", "Love your enemies" and "Turn the other cheek" we might have a difficult time answering that question. Or, we might have difficulty reconciling our actions (having a gun), with our beliefs and that split is dangerous to our faith. It's a chink Satan can work on to break our faith. We need to know the answer to this question to do what God wants and not leave any opportunity for the devil.

So you're not in suspense, I believe the answer is Yes! A Christian may use a firearm to defend himself and others without condemnation from God. As I said before, don't believe what I say, but do believe what the Bible says.

First off, it's important to realize that God has created us for a reason. Our duty is to fulfill God's reason for creating us. Briefly, and this is another whole series of lessons by itself, God wants us to choose Him freely as our God and then to grow spiritually to the point where are souls are best suited to be with Him for eternity. That is, in Godliness. How do we do that?

[Hebrews 5:14] "Strong meat belongeth to them who are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil". He tells us how we grow, by wrestling with good and evil, exercising our senses. Which BTW, answers the age-old question, "Why is there evil in the world" - it's there for us to discern and to overcome.

But, besides evil being there for our exercise, it can also harm and kill us. This death can be spiritual. In the way Adam and Eve died when they ate of the forbidden fruit. That's it, game over! And that death is by our choice. It is what Satan wants for us.
Evil can also cause our physical death. As it did the martyr Steven, and as it did Jesus.

Now, physical death is important because our spiritual soul won't grow or develop anymore after that. It will be judged on what it is at the time. Now, is this physical death a matter of our choice also?

We might say, "Well it's in God's hands. When He decides it's time, it's time" and that's true. I believe that God is merciful and as long as we are diligently seeking and growing, He'll give us the time we need to get right. But, does that mean we can party and sin now, and take care of it later? Should we try walking across the Interstate or sky diving without a parachute? No!

[Matt 4:5-7] (Thou shalt not tempt the Lord) We need to take what actions are necessary to protect the lives God has given us, because they're His lives, not ours.
Evil might try to take our physical life before we've completed God's purpose for us. Someone might try to harm us or our family. I believe we should attempt to protect the lives God has given us. But, how do we reconcile this with, "Resist not evil and Turn the other cheek"? Let's see.

The first thing we ever put on our sign out front of the church was this scripture:
[John 15:13] "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." Obviously, Jesus was the best and greatest example of this. And it says in 1 Peter 2:21 we're to follow Jesus example.

But, look back a little:

[John 10:17,18] - (I lay my life down, no man taketh it)

Letting our life be taken from us is NOT the same as our laying it down. There are those evil ones who would try to take it. Look a little earlier in the same chapter:

[John 10:10-13] (shepherd protects sheep from thief who steals, destroys and kills)

Jesus acknowledged there was evil, it would come to steal and kill, and it needed to be guarded against. He said those that loved were the best ones to guard the ones they love and that it was the risk of their lives protecting others that proved that greatest love.

Is there something we should protect at the risk of our lives? Again, Christ is the example:

[Eph 5:25] (Husbands love your wives). This is compared to Christ's love for church - He gave himself for it. Husbands, give yourselves to protect your wives.
[Eph 5:28,29] (We are to cherish and nourish and support our wives). To give them what they need to grow themselves. Why has God put us here? This is one reason, one thing we are to do.

If we are to nourish and cherish our wives, that means also protecting them from harm. And also protecting ourselves, else who is to nourish and cherish our wives?
On the one hand the command, "Love your wife, cherish and nourish her". On the other hand the command "Thou shalt not Kill" and "turn the other cheek". Are those mutually exclusive commands? NO! Any apparent contradiction is due to our misunderstanding. Let's work on our understanding:

[Rom 13:9] "Thou shalt not kill". Old Testament command, but repeated here in NT. So what about policemen and soldiers? Must they quit? No.

No, "Do not kill", means "Do not Murder". Do not kill with criminal intent, unlawfully, without God's sanction. What has God sanctioned?

[Rom 13:1-4] He said governments are from God and they bear not the sword in vain. The only use of the sword is to kill. It's a power sanctioned by God, when they act as His ministers.

In Acts 10 we read of Cornelius, a man God so loved he was the first of the gentiles to be taught, yet he was a Roman centurion and no stranger to the use of the sword.
[Luke 3:14] To soldiers upon their conversion, he didn't tell them to quit, but to be content with their wages.

But, the soldiers were told to do no violence! The Greek word for violence in the original text is dissaio (dee as eye' o). It means to shake strongly, to cause to fear, to intimidate. In other words, don't unrighteously cause the honest men to fear, only the criminals and enemy you are sent against. He didn't want the soldiers to extort money from people by force, but "to be content" with their wages.

But, what of us protecting what God has given us? Look at the 12 apostles.
[Luke 22:35-38] These were the TWELVE! The closest disciples to Jesus. Ones who had AMPLE demonstration that God would provide. They were there for the miracle of the loaves and fishes, they had faith, Peter had walked on water. Jesus asked them if God had NOT provided for them when Jesus had sent them out without purse or scrip or shoes, and they said, "No, we were fine". But, what did they have among them? Two swords. Why? They trusted God to take care of them, BUT they realized they had a responsibility to protect themselves against evil also. And Jesus condoned this!
He said, "It is enough". He didn't say, "Swords? Swords kill people!, get rid of them!". Jesus condoned their having swords. He did then, he does now.

Yes, God has a use for the sword, even in the New Testament dispensation. We can use it to defend ourselves but not to murder, or to take vengeance or to exact punishment these latter items being reserved to God's ministers. This is a change from OT. Look at Sermon on the Mount. Here Jesus is comparing OT to NT point by point. One of those points was vengeance.

[Mt: 5:38] (Eye for Eye) The OT had the idea of vengeance, of a person exacting his own punishment on another. The Jews loved to follow that part. They carried it to the point of vindictiveness. Jesus had to dissuade them from this now. So, Jesus continued in the next verse.

[Mt 5:39] (turn the other cheek). The context STILL is that of taking vengeance, an "eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth". The idea is not to prohibit self defense, but from our going further to the exacting vengeance or punishment, to not have the spirit of vindictiveness. These are to be left to God and his ministers to mete out.
To "resist evil" here means to prove that it is wrong, to overcome and punish it. Again, that's not our place, but God's, we leave it to him, we "turn the other cheek". We use what God has given us. When tempted by Satan, Jesus' answer continually was, "It is written …". Jesus used God's word to refute the devil.

Now, we want to turn from evil and avoid it, but sometimes that's not possible.

[Rom 12:18,19] (live peaceably, vengeance is mine) The Lord acknowledges we may not be able to live peaceably. We must not seek trouble, we must avoid trouble, but some trouble may look us up. And he goes on to say, Don't avenge yourselves, don't punish them, I'll take care of them. But he didn't say, don't protect yourself or your loved ones.

We must remember that God created us. We belong to Him. We have to please and serve Him, and not ourselves. And that means fulfilling the duty he has given us.
He has put us here to grow. To wrestle with good and evil and to achieve spiritual maturity. That is God's purpose and plan for us. If we choose not to follow His plan He won't be pleased with us. Nor will He be pleased if we let someone keep us from completing the task God has put before us.

Now, besides this, God has given us great gifts. Our lives and the pleasures we enjoy, the ability to work. He's given us families to love and take care of and to teach and nourish and raise up. God expects us to value and respect and use these gifts.

[Mt 25:24-26] The one who hid what his Lord had given him was "wicked and slothful".
in V23, the one who used his talent, learned and was given more.
God has a reason for giving these gifts. We'd better use them. We need to value them and not treat them lightly.

[Heb:12:16] Esau was counted as a fornicator and profane person because he did not value his birthright.

If we don't value and protect the gifts God has given us, if we let them be taken from us, He will not be pleased with us as well.

[I Tim 5:8] We must provide for our own, and especially our own families, else we're worse than infidels.

So, if we are to be wise and understanding what God's will is for us (Eph 5:15) how should we understand "Do not Kill"? We'll understand it as not to murder, but not to prevent our protecting what God has given us.

Will we understand "Turn the other cheek" to mean not to resist evil at all, but to meekly surrender everything without a fight? No, we'll understand it to mean we should not act aggressively and to not exact our own vengeance and punishment. We should act, not to please ourselves, but instead only to protect what God has given us.
Consider suicide. It's wrong because it's self murder, we're taking the life that God gave us. Well what is it if we let someone else put a gun to our head and pull the trigger without our trying to stop it? It's just as wrong.

The Lord wants us to fulfill His purpose for our being here. If we don't fulfill our purpose by ignoring it, OR by letting someone keep us from it, God won't be happy with us.

Again, let's look at Jesus example:

[John 18:22,23]
Jesus rebuked his captors when they struck him. Why? Why not say, "Thank you sir, may I please have another"? They were trying to take his righteousness from him and tar him as a common criminal in the eyes of others.

Jesus' innocence was essential, he could not let it be taken from him and still fulfill God's purpose for him, to be a sinless sacrifice for our sins. Therefore Jesus resisted the taking of righteousness. By the same token, when others try to take from us the gifts God has given us, that are necessary for our fulfilling God's purpose, we must protect them!

We have the responsibility to protect the gifts God has given us. That includes our wives and families. That includes ourselves.

This is such a basic and fundamental truth, Jesus used it as an example in a parable:

[Mt 24:43] (Goodman of the house, oops wrong reference in sermon)
So, why didn't Jesus resist the taking of his life? Good question!, Good answer too!

[John 18:36] HIs kingdom, his purpose, was to leave this world, not stay in it. Otherwise he said, his servants would fight.

Would they have? Would they have been RIGHT to have fought?

We saw earlier in Luke 22:35-38 that the apostles had swords and that Jesus condoned this and thought it necessary. They were out in the world, just as we are to be out in the world and not hiding.

[2 Cor 11:26] Paul talked of being in perils of robbers and perils of his own countryman and he wasn't rejoicing about them. They were to avoided, they could keep him from doing what God wanted him to do.

Do we protect those God has given us to care for? Or do we leave them to be ravished and abused by any who care to do so? Do we protect ourselves and our ability to fulfill God's plan for us, or do we throw the precious gifts God has given us to the first dog that comes sniffing by.

Yes God condones our defending ourselves, and with deadly force if necessary. The apostles and soldiers of that time weren't carrying sticks. They were carrying the most effective personal weapon of the time, a sword. A firearm is today's equivalent of the sword. Still not convinced? God has given us important principle:

[Rom 14:22,23] If it's wrong in our minds, it's wrong for us to do it, because then it is not of faith. Don't think a Christian should own a firearm? Well then don't own one.
I've tried to give some scriptural justification for a Christian to defend himself and his family with deadly force if necessary. I believe we can do so out of faith, not trusting in our own justifications. But please, if you can not do so confidently, study to obtain that confidence.

Should we all buy guns and go armed? How many of the 12 apostles had swords? Two. Why didn't they all? People are different. Some are weak, some are strong.

[Rom 15:1] The strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak. Who is strong and who is weak? The ones who choose to armed, or those who choose not? I don't know. Peter was one of the two that had swords. Was Peter weak or strong. Why, Yes! J

[Rom 14:2,3] The Lord, through Paul, tells us how we are to consider and treat our brothers and to not judge them. Weak or strong isn't the issue, it's that we act by faith.

[Matt 7:7] And if our faith is less than perfect? We can trust God to be merciful and let us find the Truth if we honestly and diligently seek it.

God has given us great and precious gifts. We need to value them and protect them and use them to fullest and to the best of our ability.

But, the greatest gift God has given us is the gift of His Son, Jesus, our Lord and Savior. Jesus left heaven and came to this earth and lived as a man. Tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin. Hebrews 4:15.

God is Good. He can not abide sin. We can not come before Him as we are, dirty with sin. Our sins have separated us from God. Jesus died and took our sins upon himself, removing that which separates us from God, making peace between us. Eph 2:13,14
That good people, is the Gospel. The Good News that our Creator will welcome us back as his children if we accept His gift.

Yet how have we treated this greatest Gift from God? Are we still living for ourselves?
Are we ignoring our Creator and his Gift? God let his only begotten Son, a perfect and sinless son, a son in whom He was well pleased, take our sins upon him and be nailed to a cross and God had to turn His back on him and hear his son cry out, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me". WHAT WILL GOD DO TO US IF WE IGNORE THAT GIFT? Will he say, "Sure, c'mon in, I was only kidding"? No! He won't, because He isn't kidding. What should Jesus mean to us?

[2 Cor 5:14,15] If you believe there is a God, and that Jesus was His son and died for us, you'll have a change of mind. You'll stop living for yourself and start living for Him. This is biblical "repentance", gr. metanoeo, a change in mind.

The old mind, the old man will then be dead. We bury dead things. So does God. He tells us so.

[Rom 6:3,4] The old man will be buried in the waters of baptism and the new man will arise.

We can then continue in our new life, growing to spiritual maturity, teaching others, with a great hope and joy before us, something to give purpose to our lives -lives we should protect till our purpose has been fulfilled and He calls us home to live with Him eternally:

[Rom 6:5]

You've heard the gospel.

[End audio file, 45 minute tape ran out]

If you believe and have repented, come now and bury the old man as we stand and sing.

[Invite]

[End]

This is an original work by Ed Kelleher.
Feel free to use it to the glory of God.
Edward J. Kelleher
1730 Augusta Road
West Columbia, South Carolina 29169
803-796-8858

FTR, I don't know this gentleman or anything about him. A good friend from Texas sent this to me once and I have always liked it. It has been posted here before, and not only by me IIRC.

Posted: 9/18/2006 10:48:07 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
I have a duty to God. That is to be a good witness (I needs lots of work) and reach the lost. Unless I am being killed because of my fiith, I will defend myself. IF its deny Christ or die type of thing, then I will prepare for death.

So that raises an interesting question. If you found yourself in the situation that those Fox journalists were in, convert to Islam or have your head chopped off, would you leave your family without you and die for your faith or falsely convert and return home safely assuming that God knew what it was you were doing?

Posted: 9/18/2006 11:00:11 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I have a duty to God. That is to be a good witness (I needs lots of work) and reach the lost. Unless I am being killed because of my fiith, I will defend myself. IF its deny Christ or die type of thing, then I will prepare for death.

So that raises an interesting question. If you found yourself in the situation that those Fox journalists were in, convert to Islam or have your head chopped off, would you leave your family without you and die for your faith or falsely convert and return home safely assuming that God knew what it was you were doing?

In a wartime scenario, alot of things that are wrong become right - like killing others and plying intentional deception (lying) .

I am comfortable with lying and converting to Islam as an intentional deception of the enemy. That's my thinking right now anyway.

Posted: 9/18/2006 11:11:44 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I have a duty to God. That is to be a good witness (I needs lots of work) and reach the lost. Unless I am being killed because of my fiith, I will defend myself. IF its deny Christ or die type of thing, then I will prepare for death.

So that raises an interesting question. If you found yourself in the situation that those Fox journalists were in, convert to Islam or have your head chopped off, would you leave your family without you and die for your faith or falsely convert and return home safely assuming that God knew what it was you were doing?

In a wartime scenario, alot of things that are wrong become right - like killing others and plying intentional deception (lying) .

I am comfortable with lying and converting to Islam as an intentional deception of the enemy. That's my thinking right now anyway.

Interesting. However, isn't that tantamount to denying Christ?

Begging the philosophical question: which is preferable, publicly denying Christ while privately still believing - and living to fight another day (possibly), or dying as a Believer...?

Posted: 9/18/2006 12:32:38 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Interesting. However, isn't that tantamount to denying Christ?

Begging the philosophical question: which is preferable, publicly denying Christ while privately still believing - and living to fight another day (possibly), or dying as a Believer...?

Right now, in my thinking, war makes alot of wrong things right.

Like when Anne Frank hid the Jews from the Nazis.

Technically, you could say she lied and deceived the Nazis. Under normal circumstances that would be wrong.

In the Bible, David before he was king faked being an insane person to escape the enemy. As king and leader of the army, he would have often deceived the enemy to win the battle.

But in wartime against the enemy, alot changes.

That's my thinking right now, anyway....

Prolly never come to that. No freaking way I'd let those terrorist bastards (in teh Biblical sense ) take me alive.

Posted: 9/18/2006 12:43:03 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Interesting. However, isn't that tantamount to denying Christ?

Begging the philosophical question: which is preferable, publicly denying Christ while privately still believing - and living to fight another day (possibly), or dying as a Believer...?

Right now, in my thinking, war makes alot of wrong things right.

Like when Anne Frank hid the Jews from the Nazis.

Technically, you could say she lied and deceived the Nazis. Under normal circumstances that would be wrong.

In the Bible, David before he was king faked being an insane person to escape the enemy. As king and leader of the army, he would have often deceived the enemy to win the battle.

But in wartime against the enemy, alot changes.

That's my thinking right now, anyway....

Prolly never come to that. No freaking way I'd let those terrorist bastards (in teh Biblical sense ) take me alive.

No, but the lies you described were to deceive evil people to keep others alive.

I think if I remember right, denying Christ is the only unforgivable sin.

Where it gets "gray" is when one would hypothetically publicly deny Christ while still personally believing, to save innocent lives (for example)... I don't know how that works.

Posted: 9/18/2006 12:49:00 PM EDT

[#18]

So Peter went to hell?

You HAVE to be a martyr?

There's something that is unforgiveable?

Sorry, I don't buy it.

Tj

Posted: 9/18/2006 12:57:34 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
So Peter went to hell?

You HAVE to be a martyr?

There's something that is unforgiveable?

Sorry, I don't buy it.

Tj

TJ: Were you referring to my post?

Posted: 9/18/2006 12:58:19 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
No, but the lies you described were to deceive evil people to keep others alive.

Actually David deceived the Philistines to save his own life.

I think if I remember right, denying Christ is the only unforgivable sin.

Rejecting Christ (never receive him as saviour) is unforgivable - by definition.

Grieving the Holy Spirit is described as the unpardonable sin.

Where it gets "gray" is when one would hypothetically publicly deny Christ while still personally believing, to save innocent lives (for example)... I don't know how that works.

If its OK to kill the enemy, it seems like lying to them would be OK too.

God deals in truth. He is defined as truth. God deals with men based on what is true about them. If I lie saying I've renounced Him, have I renounced Him? No, I haven't. The truth about me is I still serve Him.

Thus the only issue is the lie - that's where I come back to killing the enemy is OK. And lying to them seems like the right thing to do. Seriously.

Scripture gives great weight to the idea that no one sin is any worse than any other in God's eyes. Worse consequences for us, but there is no such thing as the "little white lie" in God's reckoning.

To God, sin is sin.

Posted: 9/18/2006 1:01:54 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Like when Anne Frank hid the Jews from the Nazis.

Que?

Posted: 9/18/2006 1:02:36 PM EDT

[#22]

What is "GFrieving" ?

You said,

If its OK to kill the enemy, it seems like lying to them would be OK too.

Scripture gives great weight to teh idea that no one sin is any worse than any other in God's eyes. Worse consequences for us, but there is no such thing as the "little white lie."

To God, sin is sin.

You must realize the contradiction in what you wrote... IF God says "sin is sin" and there are no such things as "little white lies", THEN lying would not be OK, am I right?

I'm not at all trying to argue here, just trying to clarify in case I wasn't lucid in my other post(s) ...

Posted: 9/18/2006 1:08:03 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
What is "GFrieving" ?

Its grieving over a lost girlfriend.

You must realize the contradiction in what you wrote... IF God says "sin is sin" and there are no such things as "little white lies", THEN lying would not be OK, am I right?

I'm not at all trying to argue here, just trying to clarify in case I wasn't lucid in my other post(s) ...

To God. any one sin is as bad as any other sin. EVERY INDIVIDUAL sin has the capability, by itself, to send a man to hell.

What I am saying is I do not beleive God defines lying to the enemy as sin.

Posted: 9/18/2006 1:09:26 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Like when Anne Frank hid the Jews from the Nazis.

Que?

Google is yo' homey bro friend.

www.time.com/time/time100/heroes/profile/frank01.html

Posted: 9/18/2006 1:14:20 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:
What is "GFrieving" ?

Its a typo.

Grieving.

You must realize the contradiction in what you wrote... IF God says "sin is sin" and there are no such things as "little white lies", THEN lying would not be OK, am I right?

I'm not at all trying to argue here, just trying to clarify in case I wasn't lucid in my other post(s) ...

To God. any one sin is as bad as any other sin. EVERY INDIVIDUAL sin has the capability, by itself, to send a man to hell.

What I am saying is I do not beleive God defines lying to the enemy as sin.

Even if you're lying about believing in God?

As I said, it's gray area. I just wanted clarification (and to clarify what I was saying)

Sorry to the OP about belaboring the threadjack...

Posted: 9/18/2006 1:21:19 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Like when Anne Frank hid the Jews from the Nazis.

Que?

Google is yo' homey bro friend.

www.time.com/time/time100/heroes/profile/frank01.html

I know who she is but she didn't hide Jews. She was a Jew who was in hiding.

just seemed weird to word it the way you did

Posted: 9/18/2006 1:44:48 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Even if you're lying about believing in God?

As I said, it's gray area. I just wanted clarification (and to clarify what I was saying)

Sorry to the OP about belaboring the threadjack...

Again IF something is a sin, then its no better or worse than any other sin.

I don't beleive its a sin.

Interesting discussion tho - if I get a chance, I'll do some OT research to see how Israel may have handled deceiving of the enemy in their battles.

Posted: 9/18/2006 1:46:51 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

I know who she is but she didn't hide Jews. She was a Jew who was in hiding.

just seemed weird to word it the way you did

Actually, yer right.

I should have said those who hid the Jews, like in the case of Anne Frank.

Posted: 9/18/2006 5:04:21 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I know who she is but she didn't hide Jews. She was a Jew who was in hiding.

just seemed weird to word it the way you did

Actually, yer right.

I should have said those who hid the Jews, like in the case of Anne Frank.

Corrie ten Boom, OK?

so.........killing?

ETA: Thanks for the sermon transcript, Hardshell. Good stuff.

Posted: 9/18/2006 5:06:03 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I have a duty to God. That is to be a good witness (I needs lots of work) and reach the lost. Unless I am being killed because of my fiith, I will defend myself. IF its deny Christ or die type of thing, then I will prepare for death.

So that raises an interesting question. If you found yourself in the situation that those Fox journalists were in, convert to Islam or have your head chopped off, would you leave your family without you and die for your faith or falsely convert and return home safely assuming that God knew what it was you were doing?

I guess I will get killed. I am thankful I am not in that position but I would LIKE to say that I would chose rightly. That being death.

Posted: 9/18/2006 5:09:59 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

I think if I remember right, denying Christ is the only unforgivable sin.

ALL of the apostles denied Christ.

Still, I think when it comes to denounce or die, I think I will do what those very same folks did. I will die.

Posted: 9/18/2006 5:29:59 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I have a duty to God. That is to be a good witness (I needs lots of work) and reach the lost. Unless I am being killed because of my fiith, I will defend myself. IF its deny Christ or die type of thing, then I will prepare for death.

So that raises an interesting question. If you found yourself in the situation that those Fox journalists were in, convert to Islam or have your head chopped off, would you leave your family without you and die for your faith or falsely convert and return home safely assuming that God knew what it was you were doing?

I guess I will get killed. I am thankful I am not in that position but I would LIKE to say that I would chose rightly. That being death.

I normally agree with g-man, but i think I'm going to side with wildboar on this one. It seems that in this heirarchical system of values, denying Christ is worse than killing.

I would kill to save my own life, but hopefully not deny Christ to the same end.

"If you deny me before men....."

Posted: 9/18/2006 5:51:35 PM EDT

[#33]

You guys even know what the fish symbol stands for?

I'm proud you feel so strongly about your faith however though admired, martyrdom isn't a requirement nor is there an unforgiveable sin.

Christ knew Peter would deny him three times yet it was him he told he would build his church.

I'm glad you all have such strong faith and not ashamed to tell everyone but the impression that dieing for Christ is a requirement of Christianity regardless of the circumstance rather than deny him is not going to lead others to the faith but scare them away for it rings of more extremist religions.

The bottomline is none of you will know what we will do until that dull knife is on your throat and in some circumstances throwing your life away, like knowing your children will suffer, is self centered.

We owe our faiths existance to those early Christians who hid in the catacombs, denied Christ regularly, and prayed in Pagan temples. Those folks didn't endure the slander of the internet but they risk the sword and their families the sword. They were martyrs because they dare live so the word could survive and live. These people weren't wrong but the people who knew Christ in person or those who knew Christ in person.

You see Peter denied Christ to the Romans but never in his heart.

Tj

Posted: 9/18/2006 6:31:56 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted: nor is there an unforgiveable sin.

this comming from a gut feeling? Or scripture?

I see it in Scripture and I have no reason to doubt it. As to exactly what the unpardonable sin is? well thats for another thread and will probaly take 20 pages with no resolution.

Posted: 9/18/2006 6:35:36 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

You see Peter denied Christ to the Romans but never in his heart.

Hard to explain why he took crucifixion so well then. I wonder why he chose not to do it the way you explained.
But like you said, none of us knows for sure until the time comes. I am personally convinced God is in control though and no matter what, His will is going to prevail.

Posted: 9/18/2006 8:11:11 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
You guys even know what the fish symbol stands for?

The first Greek letters for the words "Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior" spell the word "fish" It is commonly thought that it was a way to identify yourself as a Christian without being found out, but it was probably more of a way to admit a believer from a different congregation in without fear that he was a Roman spy.

I'm proud you feel so strongly about your faith however though admired, martyrdom isn't a requirement nor is there an unforgiveable sin.
Wildboar addressed this already

Christ knew Peter would deny him three times yet it was him he told he would build his church.
Peter was a work in progress to be sure. This was also addressed with Peter's martyrdom

I'm glad you all have such strong faith and not ashamed to tell everyone but the impression that dieing for Christ is a requirement of Christianity regardless of the circumstance rather than deny him is not going to lead others to the faith but scare them away for it rings of more extremist religions.
The Christ of the Bible calls for some VERY radical things.

The bottomline is none of you will know what we will do until that dull knife is on your throat
Very true
and in some circumstances throwing your life away,
Maybe
like knowing your children will suffer,
huh?
is self centered.

We owe our faiths existance to those early Christians who hid in the catacombs, denied Christ regularly, and prayed in Pagan temples. Those folks didn't endure the slander of the internet but they risk the sword and their families the sword.
God preserved his people and his word and would have done so without traditors. There were plenty who never recanted or lapsed but did not die either.

They were martyrs because they dare live so the word could survive and live. These people weren't wrong but the people who knew Christ in person or those who knew Christ in person.

You see Peter denied Christ to the Romans but never in his heart.

Tj

Edited 'cause I didn't proofread

Posted: 9/18/2006 8:12:27 PM EDT

[#37]

So, about that Biblical basis for killing in self defense?

Posted: 9/19/2006 6:39:30 AM EDT

[#38]

"But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one." Luke 22:35-38

Jesus knew the dangers, scorn, and anger his followers would face. He instructed them to buy a sword to protect themselves... not so much to fight for Christ (as he stopped them from killing in order to keep him from being taken)... but to protect themselves. Jesus knew his path and was willing to walk it. We are supposed to be as Christ like as possible. And to not hurt our fellow man when it is avoidable. But Jesus told us himself to buy a sword for the trouble we may face.

Posted: 9/19/2006 6:47:37 AM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
"But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one." Luke 22:35-38

Jesus knew the dangers, scorn, and anger his followers would face. He instructed them to buy a sword to protect themselves... not so much to fight for Christ (as he stopped them from killing in order to keep him from being taken)... but to protect themselves. Jesus knew his path and was willing to walk it. We are supposed to be as Christ like as possible. And to not hurt our fellow man when it is avoidable. But Jesus told us himself to buy a sword for the trouble we may face.

Not much in the way of evidence the swords were for defnce. Jesus even rebuked Peter for using it. I think the reason He had them buy the swords was so prophecy could be fulfilled "and He was numbered among the transgressors" as it was mentioned shortly after.

I dont think I would use that particular scripture as an example.

Posted: 9/19/2006 7:28:31 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
I think

That's right, you think. You don't know.

I dont think I would use that particular scripture as an example.

Again thinking and knowing are two different things.

Have a good one.

Posted: 9/19/2006 7:30:05 AM EDT

[#41]

.

Warning

Confirm Action

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