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Posted: 2/4/2006 7:39:55 PM EDT

Very serious question - can any non-Muslim just walk into a Mosque unaccompanied and sit through their entire Friday prayer service?

Anyone here ever done that?

What's it like?

I'm curious because one time I asked a Muslim co-worker (who leaves at 11:30 every Friday to go to Mosque) what his Friday service was like - he changed the subject and wouldn't talk about it.


Link Posted: 2/4/2006 7:42:12 PM EDT
Its no problem ,but just make sure you wear a teeshirt with that avator on it
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 7:44:18 PM EDT
I think your avatar may prevent you from getting a response. They may feel that you are somewhat less that sincere.


FWIW, no I have not stepped foot into any mosque here in the US. I did in Turkey in 92 but it was just to get some pictures.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 7:49:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
Very serious question - can any non-Muslim just walk into a Mosque unaccompanied and sit through their entire Friday prayer service?

Anyone here ever done that?

What's it like?

I'm curious because one time I asked a Muslim co-worker (who leaves at 11:30 every Friday to go to Mosque) what his Friday service was like - he changed the subject and wouldn't talk about it.





Carryover from GD -

Yes, I have been in a mosque unaccompanied before, ona few occasions. No big deal. Never went on a Friday, however, but that was just timing.

As to him not talking, he's likely just afraind of the response he'll get. Maybe expecting typical rhetoric.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 7:49:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WildBoar:
I think your avatar may prevent you from getting a response. They may feel that you are somewhat less that sincere.


Who's "they"?

I'm asking non-Muslims if they've ever tried to go to a Friday Mosque service.


My main question is, are non-Muslims even allowed in to participate in the Friday service?

Link Posted: 2/4/2006 7:53:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By WildBoar:
I think your avatar may prevent you from getting a response. They may feel that you are somewhat less that sincere.


Who's "they"?

I'm asking non-Muslims if they've ever tried to go to a Friday Mosque service.


My main question is, are non-Muslims even allowed in to participate in the Friday service?




Can't speak with authority, but you'd likely meet some negativity with trying to 'participate.' Watching doesn't seem to be an issue, if you're truly there to watch and learn.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 7:53:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mattimeo:
Yes, I have been in a mosque unaccompanied before, ona few occasions. No big deal. Never went on a Friday, however, but that was just timing.

Interesting. Was there any religious events going on or was it basically just an "open" time.


Originally Posted By mattimeo:
As to him not talking, he's likely just afraind of the response he'll get. Maybe expecting typical rhetoric.

Maybe. I don't know.

Link Posted: 2/4/2006 7:58:00 PM EDT
Best to go with a 'friend' as Muslims have a whole 'physical litany' to the prayer service that you won't know. Yes, did it once. They kneel, sit, bow, move head from side to side, say things in Arabic, wash a certain way - you won't pass unless you've been trained/briefed.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 8:16:00 PM EDT
11:30 Hey, that's lunchtime! I ate a muslim lunch joint once and they were selling water bongs.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 8:27:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By OODA_Loop:
Best to go with a 'friend' as Muslims have a whole 'physical litany' to the prayer service that you won't know. Yes, did it once. They kneel, sit, bow, move head from side to side, say things in Arabic, wash a certain way - you won't pass unless you've been trained/briefed.

Interesting. Thanks.

So is it really "open" then for anyone just walk into the service and just observe it all without a 'chaperone'?

Obviously I wouldn't participate or even try. But do they exclude non-Muslims from certain areas or services?

And are women allowed into the prayer services along with the men? I've seen pictures and it seems like women aren't allowed.

Link Posted: 2/4/2006 8:33:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By OODA_Loop:
Best to go with a 'friend' as Muslims have a whole 'physical litany' to the prayer service that you won't know. Yes, did it once. They kneel, sit, bow, move head from side to side, say things in Arabic, wash a certain way - you won't pass unless you've been trained/briefed.

Interesting. Thanks.

So is it really "open" then for anyone just walk into the service and just observe it all without a 'chaperone'?

Obviously I wouldn't participate or even try. But do they exclude non-Muslims from certain areas or services?

And are women allowed into the prayer services along with the men? I've seen pictures and it seems like women aren't allowed.




Dunno about some of those questions. As to what was going on when I went? It was a prayer time service, so they were doing their washing and prayer and all that.

The one thing I can tell you is that you're likely to find that attitudes towards guests/strangers will be different depending on where you go. I went to ones that were located near college campuses, so most of the muslims there were my own age, and pretty laid back about someone coming to investigate. I didn't catch any flak.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 9:41:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

And are women allowed into the prayer services along with the men? I've seen pictures and it seems like women aren't allowed.



I believe women worship in a separate area at most mosques. You wouldn't want men looking at a woman's butt when they bow over to pray, you know . . .
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 10:13:47 AM EDT
Women are usually in a gallery to the side or upstairs.

Link Posted: 2/5/2006 5:07:26 PM EDT
I converted to Islam three years ago and can answer your questions about Islam- PM me.

Any non-Muslim is welcome to sit through the Friday prayer. Just take off your shoes where you see everyone else taking them off and sit by the wall. People most likely will be very friendly and try and talk to you.

Women are welcome to the prayer service though it is not mandatory for them to attend it every week like it is for men to.

Very rarely will you find a mosque where you will not be welcome to stay through the prayer. If anything people will be a little bit "too" happy to see you there and will try to get you to talk to them about why you came and all of that.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 5:22:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/5/2006 5:23:21 PM EDT by thedoctors308]

Originally Posted By abdulrahman:
I converted to Islam three years ago and can answer your questions about Islam- PM me.

Any non-Muslim is welcome to sit through the Friday prayer. Just take off your shoes where you see everyone else taking them off and sit by the wall. People most likely will be very friendly and try and talk to you.

Women are welcome to the prayer service though it is not mandatory for them to attend it every week like it is for men to.

Very rarely will you find a mosque where you will not be welcome to stay through the prayer. If anything people will be a little bit "too" happy to see you there and will try to get you to talk to them about why you came and all of that.



That was my experience.
Everyone was very nice, and polite.
During the service, the women were seperated from the men by a semi-transparent screen.
It was explained to me that the purpose was to keep people's minds on God and on prayer.
Made sense to me, esp. considering how girls my age dress in church.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 5:30:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 5:58:25 PM EDT
That is the purpose of it. When you think about it , it isn't sexist like people say. I don't know if this is just me but when I'm in the presence of girls I act differently. I don't know if the feeling could be best described as discomfort but there is a sense that I kind of have to be a little careful. In Islam when you are worshipping you should be comfortable.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 7:56:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/5/2006 8:02:43 PM EDT by PreMed_Gunner]

Originally Posted By abdulrahman:
That is the purpose of it. When you think about it , it isn't sexist like people say. I don't know if this is just me but when I'm in the presence of girls I act differently. I don't know if the feeling could be best described as discomfort but there is a sense that I kind of have to be a little careful. In Islam when you are worshipping you should be comfortable.



In case people think that the only thing is "keeping women away from the men", no, you(not you abdulrahman) would be wrong. Prayer is setup to make everything the most comfortable to those who pray, and allow you to focus 100% on Allah and your prayer. This means, for example, that you are not supposed to smoke before going to prayer, or put on strong perfume/cologne, because it distracts fellow Muslims from their prayer.

As for the OP's question, I went to a mosque quite a few times before I converted(I am pretty much a lapsed Muslim as of right now; drinking, smoking, etc.) and was always welcomed with open arms. Strangely, even the Salafi/Wahhabi would welcome anyone that came and would ask them questions, offered to answer questions,etc.

View Islamic prayer times like Sunday service without the sermon, it gives you time to group with fellow believers in the worship of Allah.

As for Friday sermons, I promise you everything they say in Arabic they will say in English, they don't leave anything out due to the fact that a large majority of Muslims in this country and elsewhere do not speak Arabic; there weren't any "secret messages" to the "Jihadists" in any qutbah I have listened to.

Also, if you really want to have some "fun", go to fiqh classes; they will give you every thing you want to know about Islamic Shari`a and then some.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 8:57:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By abdulrahman:
I converted to Islam three years ago and can answer your questions about Islam- PM me.

Any non-Muslim is welcome to sit through the Friday prayer. Just take off your shoes where you see everyone else taking them off and sit by the wall. People most likely will be very friendly and try and talk to you.

Women are welcome to the prayer service though it is not mandatory for them to attend it every week like it is for men to.

Very rarely will you find a mosque where you will not be welcome to stay through the prayer. If anything people will be a little bit "too" happy to see you there and will try to get you to talk to them about why you came and all of that.



just curious , what religion were you before you converted and why Islam
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 1:26:54 AM EDT
funner to sit outside and look at them from a safe distance with a 10X scope.
Lebrew
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 3:10:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 4:47:39 AM EDT
Macallan do you have something against Muslims? The reason why we were offended by the cartoon is because we highly respect Muhammad (SWS) and because there is so much tension between the east and west nowadays.

I was Christian before but I wasn't really practicing. No problem asking me about it, ask me anything you want, be open.

Surprisingly, since Islam was in the news after September 11th I wanted to find out for myself what it was all about. I was myself searching for a religion and I'd never thought to look to Islam, I'd always dismissed it before. When I started reading the Qur'an, the message it had was much different than the one I would have guessed it to to have if I would have trusted the news. It promotes peace, voting and inheritance rights for women (this is one thing people have trouble with these days), and is very specific about the way Muslims should live their lives. There are so many misconceptions out there. Most anti-Muslims hardly know anything about Islam to begin with.

Since the original topic was the Friday prayer (Salat'ul Jum'a).

Non-Muslims can even pray with the Muslims if they want, I did it before I converted to see what it was like. You can be there every step of the way with the Muslims.

Here is basically how it works:

Everyone comes to the mosque (masjid) and makes ablutions to be clean before they pray as a sign of respect to God. Some might have done it before. The one who leads the prayer and gives the sermon is called the "Imam." He leads because he is usually the most knowledgeable but in the end is like everyone else there, he can't give confession or be an intermediary between the worshipper and God. A guy will do the azan (what you hear on the loudspeakers in Muslim countries, the call to prayer) a couple of times and after that people will do extra prayers that don't have to do with the main prayer. The Imam will then talk about something- it's basically the style of a Christian sermon, they try and teach you something. After he is done the guy does the call to prayer again and after that is when everyone prays together.

The Imam will say almost everything, the worshipper just stands behind him in line with everyone else and says a few things while following the movements. You could join in, all you have to do is do what everyone else is doing. You don't need to know what to do beforehand, it will look like you know what you are doing since some people just do it slower than others.

I hope I didn't make this post too long so that you guys will read it! If anyone has absolutely any questions about Islam then please PM me.

Link Posted: 2/6/2006 4:55:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 4:56:33 AM EDT by Hellhound]
Nevermind.


Link Posted: 2/6/2006 5:05:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 5:11:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By abdulrahman:


Forgot to add, even if it is negative!




Nope, not negative at all, carry on......
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 6:24:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 6:26:05 AM EDT by The_Macallan]

Originally Posted By abdulrahman:
Macallan do you have something against Muslims?

Some of them, yes.



Originally Posted By abdulrahman:
The reason why we were offended by the cartoon is because we highly respect Muhammad (SWS) and because there is so much tension between the east and west nowadays.

Being offended is one thing. Rioting and burning down embassies and threatening murder and another 9-11 and holocaust is FAR worse than the offense of a cartoon.

And it was most curious why there were no riots or burning down of embassies after Islam was hijacked on 9-11 or any of the many other horrific acts done under the name of Islam.

If a cartoon deemed offensive to Islam provoked such a massive reaction from Muslims because it supposedly offends their religion, then how about so much terrorism done in the name of that same religion?

Where is the massive reaction to having Islam hijacked by murderers as opposed to simply mocked by cartoonists?


* But this is getting off the topic and should be addressed in another thread.

My main questions were about the Muslim religious service.


Originally Posted By abdulrahman:
I was Christian before but I wasn't really practicing. No problem asking me about it, ask me anything you want, be open.

Thanks. I'll likely be taking you up on that offer in time.



Originally Posted By abdulrahman:
Surprisingly, since Islam was in the news after September 11th I wanted to find out for myself what it was all about. I was myself searching for a religion and I'd never thought to look to Islam, I'd always dismissed it before. When I started reading the Qur'an, the message it had was much different than the one I would have guessed it to to have if I would have trusted the news. It promotes peace, voting and inheritance rights for women (this is one thing people have trouble with these days), and is very specific about the way Muslims should live their lives. There are so many misconceptions out there. Most anti-Muslims hardly know anything about Islam to begin with.

Since the original topic was the Friday prayer (Salat'ul Jum'a).

Non-Muslims can even pray with the Muslims if they want, I did it before I converted to see what it was like. You can be there every step of the way with the Muslims.

Here is basically how it works:

Everyone comes to the mosque (masjid) and makes ablutions to be clean before they pray as a sign of respect to God. Some might have done it before. The one who leads the prayer and gives the sermon is called the "Imam." He leads because he is usually the most knowledgeable but in the end is like everyone else there, he can't give confession or be an intermediary between the worshipper and God. A guy will do the azan (what you hear on the loudspeakers in Muslim countries, the call to prayer) a couple of times and after that people will do extra prayers that don't have to do with the main prayer. The Imam will then talk about something- it's basically the style of a Christian sermon, they try and teach you something. After he is done the guy does the call to prayer again and after that is when everyone prays together.

The Imam will say almost everything, the worshipper just stands behind him in line with everyone else and says a few things while following the movements. You could join in, all you have to do is do what everyone else is doing. You don't need to know what to do beforehand, it will look like you know what you are doing since some people just do it slower than others.

I hope I didn't make this post too long so that you guys will read it! If anyone has absolutely any questions about Islam then please PM me.


Thanks - that's very interesting and informative.

You've answered some of my questions quite well. I appreciate it.

Link Posted: 2/6/2006 7:09:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2006 8:39:20 AM EDT by abdulrahman]
Just because it isn't the best reaction doesn't mean that we can't understand that reaction. After 9/11, people didn't know what to believe. Many people don't feel that they owe the US anything, though they were saddened by what happened. Who were they supposed to protest against? The US can't even find the people responsible. If the threat of death isn't going to change their minds about attacking the US, how peaceful protesting change it? These people are willing to die for their ideas and trying to convince them that they are wrong just doesn't work. Besides, they weren't attacks on an Arab country, so it's easy for people to ignore it, just like some Americans ignore US atrocities and Israeli atrocities.

There are efforts going on within the Muslim community to teach others that Islam does not promote or teach terrorism. Don't forget that the number of militant Muslims is relatively small. Pakistan, Yemen and Saudi Arabia are allied with the US to try and find the people who are attacking the US. There's not much that the average citizen can do to stop this except educate others. The governments are doing the rest. But, again it's a very complex issue and I don't assume that I understand all sides of it here in Illinois.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 7:36:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By abdulrahman:
I agree that burning embassies and threatening people isn't the best reaction. Just because it isn't the best reaction doesn't mean that we can't understand that reaction. After 9/11, people didn't know what to believe. Many people don't feel that they owe the US anything, though they were saddened by what happened. Who were they supposed to protest against? The US can't even find the people responsible. If the threat of death isn't going to change their minds about attacking the US, how peaceful protesting change it? These people are willing to die for their ideas and trying to convince them that they are wrong just doesn't work. Besides, they weren't attacks on an Arab country, so it's easy for people to ignore it, just like some Americans ignore US atrocities and Israeli atrocities.



Plus, I know a lot of otherwise well educated brothers, and sisters, who cannot believe that fellow Muslims would do such atrocious acts. I can not tell you how many times I hear conspiracy theories about the US being complicit in the attacks, or being the instigator of the attacks themselves. How can they protest the actions fellow Muslims take if they don't believe that Muslims did it?

The issue is that if Muslims are to gain more power in this country, we need to get out and actively speak to our local city/county governments, and hold more than just one or two public talks a year with our fellow Americans.


There are efforts going on within the Muslim community to teach others that Islam does not promote or teach terrorism. Don't forget that the number of militant Muslims is relatively small. Pakistan, Yemen and Saudi Arabia are allied with the US to try and find the people who are attacking the US. There's not much that the average citizen can do to stop this except educate others. The governments are doing the rest. But, again it's a very complex issue and I don't assume that I understand all sides of it here in Illinois.


Brother, they(the militant Muslims) control every mosque I have been to here in Texas. They may make up a small number of Muslims, but they are the most powerful from what I have seen. In San Antonio a few years ago, the Salafi openly barred some of the more "liberal" madhab followers from attending prayer, leading to them having to estabilish a new mosque. Here in Austin, the close to campus mosque is about to do the same.

The problem is, that us who follow the madhab teachings are too tolerant of the actions of our fellow brothers, even those who have gone seriously astray and are damaging the image of Islam that the West sees. We should not, I repeat, not allow this garbage to continue, atleast here in the States.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 12:51:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By abdulrahman:

The US can't even find the people responsible.



... Not entirely true. Many of their ashes and DNA were recovered in the ruins of the World Trade Center, New York, New York - USA, 2001.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 1:56:47 PM EDT
I meant that they couldn't actually physically find the people, sorry.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 8:27:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By abdulrahman:
I meant that they couldn't actually physically find the people, sorry.



Except for KSM, self-proclaimed operational planner, who was arrested and is now enjoying the Cuban sun. ;) Among others.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 8:38:22 AM EDT

Except for KSM, self-proclaimed operational planner, who was arrested and is now enjoying the Cuban sun. ;) Among others.



When they want you to think that everything is okay then they have it under control and have the main people. When they want more money for defense there are still many people out there loose who did it.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 10:40:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2006 10:41:47 AM EDT by The_Macallan]

Originally Posted By abdulrahman:
Just because it isn't the best reaction doesn't mean that we can't understand that reaction.

I liken it to trying to understand the anger that the KKK has against affirmative action.

What they're "offended at" is really just being used an excuse to hate and burn and kill some more.



Originally Posted By abdulrahman:
After 9/11, people didn't know what to believe. Many people don't feel that they owe the US anything, though they were saddened by what happened.

What people are you referring to?



Originally Posted By abdulrahman:
Who were they supposed to protest against?

Osama Bin Laden.
Al Qaeda.
Taliban.
Wahabists.
The madrassas in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc.
The Saudi embassies (most hijackers were Saudi nationals)
Radical Islamofascist Imams in their local mosques.

But in fact there was a GREAT outpouring of SUPPORT for Bin Laden in most Arab countries right after 9-11. The streets were FILLED with mobs of joyous celebrations in Pakistan, Syria, Iran, Sudan, the West Bank, etc.



Originally Posted By abdulrahman:
The US can't even find the people responsible.

Because Pakistan and others are protecting them.



Originally Posted By abdulrahman:
If the threat of death isn't going to change their minds about attacking the US, how peaceful protesting change it? These people are willing to die for their ideas and trying to convince them that they are wrong just doesn't work.

The idea isn't about trying to change the minds of terrorists - it's to cut them off from any popular or government support.

How many times have you seen thousands of Muslims protesting in the street against GWBush and the US? How many times have you seen thousands of Muslims protesting in the street against Zarqarwi and Al Qaeda?



Originally Posted By abdulrahman:
Besides, they weren't attacks on an Arab country, so it's easy for people to ignore it,


Are you saying that Islamic terrorists are NOT targetting Muslims in Iraq, Saudia Arabia, Yemen, Pakistan, Indonesia, etc.?



Originally Posted By abdulrahman:
Don't forget that the number of militant Muslims is relatively small.

Militants don't need to be large in number when the majority of other Muslims actively support them (like Palestinians support Hamas) or simply remain on the sidelines in silence. All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing to stop it.



Originally Posted By abdulrahman:
Pakistan, Yemen and Saudi Arabia are allied with the US to try and find the people who are attacking the US.

The governments are weakly supportive of the US. But there is a lot of support for the terrorists in those nations among the people.



Originally Posted By abdulrahman:
There's not much that the average citizen can do to stop this except educate others. The governments are doing the rest. But, again it's a very complex issue and I don't assume that I understand all sides of it here in Illinois.

There are some complex issues here I'll grant you that. But also some very simple ones too, namely that a billion Muslims are allowing their religion to be hijacked and seem very unwilling to stop by failing to stand up to their local Imams who preach such crap and by failing to band together and openly oppose the Jihadists.

Link Posted: 2/8/2006 1:12:29 PM EDT
Macallan-


What they're "offended at" is really just being used an excuse to hate and burn and kill some more.


No, I'm offended by the cartoon and I don't want to hate and burn and kill anyone.



What people are you referring to?


Arabs in particular but Muslims generally.



Osama Bin Laden.
Al Qaeda.
Taliban.
Wahabists.
The madrassas in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc.
The Saudi embassies (most hijackers were Saudi nationals)
Radical Islamofascist Imams in their local mosques.



When the West (who many people believe is the enemy of Islam) tells Muslims that they should be protesting against this and rallying against their neighbors what do you think their reaction is?



But in fact there was a GREAT outpouring of SUPPORT for Bin Laden in most Arab countries right after 9-11. The streets were FILLED with mobs of joyous celebrations in Pakistan, Syria, Iran, Sudan, the West Bank, etc.


A lot of the footage on the news of people celebrating was stock footage from before 9/11. The people that did protest did so because they hate America. That isn't anything new. Frankly, I don't believe that most Muslims believed the US story right after 9/11. There is so much distrust there. People don't know what to believe or who their enemy is. This has a lot to do with Arab and Muslim culture in general, and with Israel.


Because Pakistan and others are protecting them.


I don't think so. Pakistan is allied with the US. Musharraf supports the US and a lot of people hate him for doing it. If they had Bin Laden and others then they would have turned them over just to get the recognition from the US.



The idea isn't about trying to change the minds of terrorists - it's to cut them off from any popular or government support. How many times have you seen thousands of Muslims protesting in the street against GWBush and the US? How many times have you seen thousands of Muslims protesting in the street against Zarqarwi and Al Qaeda?


I see what you mean but people there don't know what they are supposed to do about any of this. It looks easy from our perspective but the Arab mindset is totally different from ours. George Bush might not be classified as a terrorist but in a way that makes him more hated. He helps kill innocent Muslims every day and some Americans love him for it. Al Qaeda doesn't run any governments. They aren't as visible. This has so much to do with Arab culture and affairs in the Middle East and not much to do with Islam.


The governments are weakly supportive of the US. But there is a lot of support for the terrorists in those nations among the people.


I wouldn't say that. In Pakistan the big cities are just about as Western as you can get. A lot of people are just Muslim in name and don't care about it. The people that do care about it are for the most part more concerned with local issues than with changing the world.


There are some complex issues here I'll grant you that. But also some very simple ones too, namely that a billion Muslims are allowing their religion to be hijacked and seem very unwilling to stop by failing to stand up to their local Imams who preach such crap and by failing to band together and openly oppose the Jihadists.



See what I wrote above. I don't know that most Muslims believe that they are allowing their religion to be hijacked since I don't think that most Muslims care what Western Christians think of Islam. They should but they don't. People there have disliked the US for a long time so when some Imam who says that Americans are evil and should die they don't take it upon themselves to stop them. Think of it like a country, not as a single cohesive entity.


Link Posted: 2/8/2006 2:36:04 PM EDT
Abdulrahman,

my view (and you seem to hold at least a somewhat similar view) is that this problem is more due to the middle eastern culture than with Islam as a religion.

The problem is if that is true, and we are in a culture war with a small segment of the Muslim population who are supported at least tacitly by the majority of Muslims due to their hatred of the US, how can we not view the majority of Muslims as enemies?

Especially when many view the west as the enemy of Islam.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 2:39:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PreMed_Gunner:

Originally Posted By abdulrahman:
I agree that burning embassies and threatening people isn't the best reaction. Just because it isn't the best reaction doesn't mean that we can't understand that reaction. After 9/11, people didn't know what to believe. Many people don't feel that they owe the US anything, though they were saddened by what happened. Who were they supposed to protest against? The US can't even find the people responsible. If the threat of death isn't going to change their minds about attacking the US, how peaceful protesting change it? These people are willing to die for their ideas and trying to convince them that they are wrong just doesn't work. Besides, they weren't attacks on an Arab country, so it's easy for people to ignore it, just like some Americans ignore US atrocities and Israeli atrocities.



Plus, I know a lot of otherwise well educated brothers, and sisters, who cannot believe that fellow Muslims would do such atrocious acts. I can not tell you how many times I hear conspiracy theories about the US being complicit in the attacks, or being the instigator of the attacks themselves. How can they protest the actions fellow Muslims take if they don't believe that Muslims did it?

The issue is that if Muslims are to gain more power in this country, we need to get out and actively speak to our local city/county governments, and hold more than just one or two public talks a year with our fellow Americans.


There are efforts going on within the Muslim community to teach others that Islam does not promote or teach terrorism. Don't forget that the number of militant Muslims is relatively small. Pakistan, Yemen and Saudi Arabia are allied with the US to try and find the people who are attacking the US. There's not much that the average citizen can do to stop this except educate others. The governments are doing the rest. But, again it's a very complex issue and I don't assume that I understand all sides of it here in Illinois.


Brother, they(the militant Muslims) control every mosque I have been to here in Texas. They may make up a small number of Muslims, but they are the most powerful from what I have seen. In San Antonio a few years ago, the Salafi openly barred some of the more "liberal" madhab followers from attending prayer, leading to them having to estabilish a new mosque. Here in Austin, the close to campus mosque is about to do the same.

The problem is, that us who follow the madhab teachings are too tolerant of the actions of our fellow brothers, even those who have gone seriously astray and are damaging the image of Islam that the West sees. We should not, I repeat, not allow this garbage to continue, atleast here in the States.



That is sad news to hear from a fellow Texan

How do Militants exercise such power if they are truly a minority?

Also is a Salafi the same thing as a Wahabbist? Is there a place to read up on the madhab teachings?

thanks for the interesting thread, good comments all around


Link Posted: 2/8/2006 2:39:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:
my view (and you seem to hold at least a somewhat similar view) is that this problem is more due to the middle eastern culture than with Islam as a religion.

The problem is if that is true, and we are in a culture war with a small segment of the Muslim population who are supported at least tacitly by the majority of Muslims due to their hatred of the US, how can we not view the majority of Muslims as enemies?

Especially when many view the west as the enemy of Islam.

Excellent points.

Link Posted: 2/8/2006 6:52:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2006 6:54:11 PM EDT by abdulrahman]

Originally Posted By Dino:
Abdulrahman,

my view (and you seem to hold at least a somewhat similar view) is that this problem is more due to the middle eastern culture than with Islam as a religion.

The problem is if that is true, and we are in a culture war with a small segment of the Muslim population who are supported at least tacitly by the majority of Muslims due to their hatred of the US, how can we not view the majority of Muslims as enemies?

Especially when many view the west as the enemy of Islam.



It does have a lot to do with Islam also but I don't think it would have happened if there wasn't a cultural clash going on right now. I don't think that most Muslims hate the West. I'm no expert on Arabs or Muslims in general, I can just tell you what I see. It's kind of like saying Americans tacitly support the war in Iraq because they elected Bush again and most of them aren't trying to stop it. Honestly I can't tell you how the average Arab feels about Al-Qaeda and all of that. They do have lives themselves too and I don't know how involved they are in politics in general. They don't really see the West as an enemy but as an adversary. I don't think that most Arabs believe that the West can be erased very easily so I don't think that they try to do that. Again, a lot of Arabs aren't religious Muslims and they welcome it. If I had to guess then I'd say that most of them don't feel like the situation is under their control. Being passive isn't the same as supporting terrorism. It's not like Bin Laden is coming to stay at their house and they need to hide him or something.

I'm concerned that I'm talking about things that I have no knowledge of. I'm consulting some Arabs about it though, I'll get back to you.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 11:54:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
Very serious question - can any non-Muslim just walk into a Mosque unaccompanied and sit through their entire Friday prayer service?

Anyone here ever done that?

What's it like?

I'm curious because one time I asked a Muslim co-worker (who leaves at 11:30 every Friday to go to Mosque) what his Friday service was like - he changed the subject and wouldn't talk about it.





never have...prolly never will...dont think they would let me into 1...but it would be a good place to spy on and get some intel...as to him changing the subject, me thinks his shady mosque be hiding something
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 2:01:03 PM EDT

never have...prolly never will...dont think they would let me into 1...but it would be a good place to spy on and get some intel...as to him changing the subject, me thinks his shady mosque be hiding something


Actually if you look, everyone together started getting into a conversation about the cartoons. Lol, get intel at the masjid? It's mostly old guys and people who have embraced western ways.

Why wouldn't they let you in? That's projection. Talk to Muslims around you, they will be happy to tell you anything you want to know about Islam. Go there to get intel if you want, I think you might learn something about how mosques work.
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