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Posted: 1/26/2006 9:00:33 PM EDT
Im curious about what others belive. While Jesus was on earth was he a pacifist or a butt kicker?
This is inspired by something I read on OFCC.org. Please support your position with scripture. Also what would Jesus carry?
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 9:02:28 PM EDT
pacifist
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 9:12:38 PM EDT
Jesus lead a peaceful lifestyle physically. It was His very purpose to suffer and die as payment for our sins against God.

However, He chased the money-changers out of the temple with a whip in hand, ranting and yelling at them. He commanded His disciples to buy themselves a sword. And if you've ever read the book of Revelation....wow.

Watch out for Jesus when He returns...butt-kicker Almighty.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 2:10:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 2:13:24 AM EDT by rick458]
Jesus Taught Love, Forgiveness, and Charity, in his Corporate (human) form.
BUT he is THE JUDGE of the end times, so he is Both, because getting thrown into the lake of fire, should certainly count as getting your butt whipped.
as for the wwjccw it mentions a little something about ten thousand angels.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 2:20:13 AM EDT
Jesus always used the right tool for the job - sometimes he was very peaceful -

"Let him who is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her"

and at other times, as mentioned above when he chased the moneychangers out of the temple, he was angry, and pretty violent.

What would he carry? Well, since he created the sun, and keeps millions like it in perfect control, he'd probably pack a fusion reactor ... how does 15,000,000C grab ya? ....
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:47:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Night_Vision_AR-15:
Im curious about what others belive. While Jesus was on earth was he a pacifist or a butt kicker?
This is inspired by something I read on OFCC.org. Please support your position with scripture. Also what would Jesus carry?



Other than turning over the tables of the money changers I know of no Biblical account of him acting in a physically aggressive manner. Based on Biblical accounts I'd say that, generally, Jesus was merciful, kind and loving to ordinary people. However, he did hold the religious leaders accountable for their poor stewardship and hypocrisy. He was quite frank with them, and often is recorded as saying some fairly harsh things to them -- i.e. "generation of vipers." He could do this, I imagine, because he was dealing with peers (the doctors of the Law). I don't recall an occasion where he was quite as blunt with ordinary people.

All that being said, Jesus was a fierce WARRIOR! But as Paul said, the weapons of his warfare were not carnal. Jesus would have had to fight battles with temptations and evil angels that you and I could never even imagine. Remember, it was Jesus who was called to do battle with Lucifer. You would have to be one tough hombre to take on that challenge. Still, while there would have been a lot of sword (word) fighting in that war, it wasn't a physical battle. Lots of blood was shed, though.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:48:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By grommet:

Well, since he created the sun . . .



Where does THIS come from?
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:00:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Night_Vision_AR-15:

Also what would Jesus carry?



He is described in Revelation this way:

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.


So, there you have it. He had a two-edged sword in his mouth. I suspect, though, his complete armour would be similar to what Paul told the Ephesians they should carry:

Eph6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

That sword would have been mighty useful in the kinds of spiritual battles Jesus would have waged. You know what they say about swords:

Heb 4: 12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:17:21 AM EDT
Rev 12: 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:49:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher:

Originally Posted By grommet:

Well, since he created the sun . . .



Where does THIS come from?



I believe it comes from simple logic.

Christians believe Jesus is God and God made all we see around us. So.....

Link Posted: 1/27/2006 7:07:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:
Christians believe Jesus is God and God made all we see around us. So.....



John 14: 28 "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 7:31:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 7:36:18 AM EDT by Dino]

Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher:

Originally Posted By Dino:
Christians believe Jesus is God and God made all we see around us. So.....



John 14: 28 "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."



The standard Christian interpretation of that verse is the Father was greater than Jesus at that time, because of Jesus's limitations with his body of flesh.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 7:51:41 AM EDT

ten thousand angels.


Even the US Marines couldn't overcome that!! Semper Fi!


Link Posted: 1/27/2006 7:57:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 7:59:30 AM EDT by Bladeswitcher]

Originally Posted By Dino:

The standard Christian interpretation of that verse is the Father was greater than Jesus at that time, because of Jesus's limitations with his body of flesh.




Yeah, I know, the religious world ties itself into knots trying to defend various trintarian theories and points of view. Most people who say they believe in a trinity can't even explain what it is they believe. They sure can't prove it biblically.

I probably shouldn't have even questioned the comment. Clearly I'm not going to be able to sway anyone's point of view about Jesus being God in this forum. I understand that most Christians believe in the trinity. Let's just say I don't. I am not a trinitarian and I don't believe the scriptures support the theory. Everything I read in the Bible tells me that Jesus was the SON of God, an angel who existed pre-earthly who was sent to do a work and reconcile man with God — not with himself.

1Ti 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"

Having said that, I'm prepared to drop it. I won't be surprised if folks come back with scriptures to make the case but they won't convince me, nor will I convince them.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 8:31:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher:

Having said that, I'm prepared to drop it. I won't be surprised if folks come back with scriptures to make the case but they won't convince me, nor will I convince them.

So true, so true...

Philip saith unto Him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
John 14:8-9

That's so very difficult to understand.....

Eric The(Fundamental)Hun
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 8:34:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 8:38:08 AM EDT by Bladeswitcher]

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
Philip saith unto Him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
John 14:8-9

That's so very difficult to understand.....



You left out the next verse . . .

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Actually, the whole chapter is relevant. Makes for good reading on the topic . . .
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 8:54:36 AM EDT
"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."


Matthew 5:38-48

Link Posted: 1/27/2006 8:59:20 AM EDT

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 9:59:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.



Yep, he sure stirred things up, didn't he?
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 10:00:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 10:03:12 AM EDT by Bladeswitcher]
sorry -- edited to remove double post . . .
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 11:27:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 11:29:30 AM EDT by Night_Vision_AR-15]
It is intriuging how quickly we christians are on the draw with the ole sword of scripture. everyone seems to have a little different model. I belive Jesus was a buttkicker when it was needed and a peacefull man. Remember he was also a man and surely delt with all of the temptations and emotions that you and I do. There is scripture that suggests Jesus and his deciples carried swords. I mean weapons not spiritual swords. So my question is what do you think he might carry if he were here now for the first time?
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 11:37:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Night_Vision_AR-15:
It is intriuging how quickly we christians are on the draw with the ole sword of scripture. everyone seems to have a little different model. I belive Jesus was a buttkicker when it was needed and a peacefull man. Remember he was also a man and surely delt with all of the temptations and emotions that you and I do. There is scripture that suggests Jesus and his deciples carried swords. I mean weapons not spiritual swords. So my question is what do you think he might carry if he were here now for the first time?



There is at least one scripture that says that Peter carried a sword. I'm not sure that there is any that suggests that Jesus did. I honestly believe that Jesus did not travel armed, nor would he today. Why would he? He was getting deposits from angels. They would guide him away from situations where he might get hurt (at least until it was time for him to get hurt). In fact, there are examples when he was able to slip into a crowd or otherwise avoid trouble because it wasn't time for that. He also would have had the wisdom to speak the right words to difuse a situation before it got out of hands. As for robbers and the sorts of bad guys that so many people seem to fear today, Jesus told us how to handle those. If a man asks for your cloak, give him your coat too . . .
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 11:43:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 3:10:12 PM EDT by danpass]

Originally Posted By Jaltered:
Jesus lead a peaceful lifestyle physically. It was His very purpose to suffer and die as payment for our sins against God.

However, He chased the money-changers out of the temple with a whip in hand, ranting and yelling at them. He commanded His disciples to buy themselves a sword. And if you've ever read the book of Revelation....wow.

Watch out for Jesus when He returns...butt-kicker Almighty.




Butt-kicker of the Nth degree. Who of you (inlcuding myself) is tough enough to allow yourself to be sacrficed for the sins of others so that they can have a chance for freedom (knowing also that there are those who will refuse).

Tough enough to say to the chief priests faces (the equivalent of todays Pope) "You brood of vipers!"

Tough enough to walk right thru a crowd purposely trying to send him off a cliff.


Tough enough to tell satan and his demons "Kiss off!" and be obeyed immediately.



As far as "would Jesus carry" - I am absolutely certain he would if he wanted to and it would be whatever he wants (GE gatling gun, whatever), Jesus himself said it is only the heart that matters. I would like to think it would be a 1911 (since it is, quite obviously, Divine Inspiration that caused John Moses Browning to design it)

Besides:
Matthew 26:53
Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? I highlighted two words using red.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 11:54:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher:

Originally Posted By Night_Vision_AR-15:
Im curious about what others belive. While Jesus was on earth was he a pacifist or a butt kicker?
This is inspired by something I read on OFCC.org. Please support your position with scripture. Also what would Jesus carry?



Other than turning over the tables of the money changers I know of no Biblical account of him acting in a physically aggressive manner. Based on Biblical accounts I'd say that, generally, Jesus was merciful, kind and loving to ordinary people. However, he did hold the religious leaders accountable for their poor stewardship and hypocrisy. He was quite frank with them, and often is recorded as saying some fairly harsh things to them -- i.e. "generation of vipers." He could do this, I imagine, because he was dealing with peers (the doctors of the Law). I don't recall an occasion where he was quite as blunt with ordinary people.
All that being said, Jesus was a fierce WARRIOR! But as Paul said, the weapons of his warfare were not carnal. Jesus would have had to fight battles with temptations and evil angels that you and I could never even imagine. Remember, it was Jesus who was called to do battle with Lucifer. You would have to be one tough hombre to take on that challenge. Still, while there would have been a lot of sword (word) fighting in that war, it wasn't a physical battle. Lots of blood was shed, though.



He was bold and up-front with those who "thought" they knew it all. Those arrogant types were the ones he ripped into.

Those who did not know (or who Jesus knew that they didn't know) were the ones he gave grace to.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 1:04:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Night_Vision_AR-15:
It is intriuging how quickly we christians are on the draw with the ole sword of scripture. everyone seems to have a little different model. I belive Jesus was a buttkicker when it was needed and a peacefull man. Remember he was also a man and surely delt with all of the temptations and emotions that you and I do. There is scripture that suggests Jesus and his deciples carried swords. I mean weapons not spiritual swords. So my question is what do you think he might carry if he were here now for the first time?




10,000 angels and the power of the holy spirit. (See 2 Kings 1:9-15 for the literal action of the spiritual weapon)
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 3:37:34 PM EDT
It's kind of dumb to think a deity would waste effort on carriying around a measly gun.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 7:34:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher:

Originally Posted By grommet:

Well, since he created the sun . . .



Where does THIS come from?



Jesus Christ was Jehovah prior to his birth as a mortal man; his reference "before Abraham was, I am" establishes this. (John 8:58)

Many scriptures in the OT describe how Jehovah created the heavens and the earth. For example, see Is 42:5, 65:17.

In NT times, further evidence was given that Jesus created, such as Eph 3:9 " ...God, who created all things by Jesus Christ" . This last scripture also clarifies how this was done - Jesus (Jehovah) did it under the direction of the Father.


It's kind of dumb to think a deity would waste effort on carriying around a measly gun.


+1

Even the 30mm Avenger Canon on the A-10 is, after all, just a piece of metal. Compared to the power of a being that holds galaxies at his fingertips, it is nothing. Let us not forget Enoch - he went out to fight a war against a huge army. ALONE. He won. After destroying the entire army with a river and a mountain, he was nice enough to bury the dead; under the mountain.

Wisdom tells us to own and carry the AR15. Faith tells us it is not our only weapon, nor the most powerful one we can carry.

-grommet

Link Posted: 1/29/2006 10:23:19 AM EDT
http://www.ohioccw.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=3565
yet Jesus was a man while he was here what part of that do you refuse to understand ? If he were not, dying for our sins as a deity would be a cakewalk . Jesus had to live his life like any other man. He was responsible for defending his life until the time and place came that he gave it for our sins. If you look at the realitys of history in the times and life ot Jesus he had alot of folks out to get him. They often thought he was a false Messiah. So self defence would have been a natural as you and I know just the sight of a firearm is a deturrent. Why wouldnt Jesus carry a sword if he told all of his deciples to buy one? I dont think that Jesus tried to look like a bigshot with a crew of bodyguards.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:07:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dolanp:
It's kind of dumb to think a deity would waste effort on carriying around a measly gun.


Definently, he could destroy the entire universe with a word, ... so a gun to him would be like a toy gun that doesnt do jack to one of us...
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:48:37 AM EDT
Get on you knees and ask him yourself. It won't do much for your post count, but it might get you
closer to the CORRECT answer.
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