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Quoted: You are 100% correct, I reject him. Jews did not accept him then and do not accept him now.

That's not totally true.  The original church, when it formed, was 100% composed of Jews.  There were the disciples and other followers who acknowledged Him as the Meschiach.  This was in Jerusalem.  After Peter presented his apologetic to the crowd (recorded in Acts 2), three thousand believers were added to the church in Jerusalem.

Yeshua was a Jew.

The original members of the church were Jews.

The Christian church (geographically) sprang forth from Jerusalem and the historic lands of Israel.

Saul (later, Paul) was a very devout Jew who persecuted the early Christian church.  He was quite learned in Scripture.  He went on to become one of the biggest advocates for the Christian faith.

So, to say "Jews did not accept him then..." is not historically accurate.

Quoted:
Quoted:

You are 100% correct, I reject him. Jews did not accept him then and do not accept him now.


What are the signs that Jews look for in the returnof the Messiah?

I will bless those that bless the Jews.

Quoted: Saul (later, Paul) was a very devout Jew who persecuted the early Christian church.  He was quite learned in Scripture.  He went on to become one of the biggest advocates for the Christian faith. So, to say "Jews did not accept him then..." is not historically accurate.

From a Jewish POV, about Paul and Scripture, He was not learned at all. As a matter of fact it is Pauls quoting/misquoting of the Hebrew Scriptures that is one of the biggest red flags(Among a great many) for Jews when it come to Christianity.

What is Historically accurate is Christianity has had very little success among the Jewish people.

The minutua of the Issue could be argued all day "Why dont you believe, or how can you do (Insert religious need) without a Temple" and so on and so on. Their are two things that sum it all up. First of all, many of the "Well how can you or , What abouts" that Christians ask are based on false assumptions that we ever needed to. Those questions and the assumptions they bring are from a Christian POV of what Judaism is/need/or must do. Such things are often alien to the Jewish POV. It is like asking a Postman how he is going to resuply the space station now that he has lost his bag...in other words the questions themselves make no sense as they assume we ever had a problem with such things in the first place.

Second, and the most simple to the point one. Anything that tries to take us away from Torah is not for us. From the Jewish POV, looking at the Hebrew bible, a body of work written by Jews, for Jews, about Jews, on Jewish history and how to be Jews, written in the traditional Jewish Language, We see only one major theme, Torah is perfect, unchanging and forever it is enough and the only answer to any question a Jew could ever ask and that is what Jewish people are to do. Anything that comes to say anything diferent is not something we need bother with.

Quoted: Quoted: Saul (later, Paul) was a very devout Jew who persecuted the early Christian church.  He was quite learned in Scripture.  He went on to become one of the biggest advocates for the Christian faith. So, to say "Jews did not accept him then..." is not historically accurate. From a Jewish POV, about Paul and Scripture, He was not learned at all. As a matter of fact it is Pauls quoting/misquoting of the Hebrew Scriptures that is one of the biggest red flags(Among a great many) for Jews when it come to Christianity. What is Historically accurate is Christianity has had very little success among the Jewish people. The minutua of the Issue could be argued all day "Why dont you believe, or how can you do (Insert religious need) without a Temple" and so on and so on. Their are two things that sum it all up. First of all, many of the "Well how can you or , What abouts" that Christians ask are based on false assumptions that we ever needed to. Those questions and the assumptions they bring are from a Christian POV of what Judaism is/need/or must do. Such things are often alien to the Jewish POV. It is like asking a Postman how he is going to resuply the space station now that he has lost his bag...in other words the questions themselves make no sense as they assume we ever had a problem with such things in the first place. Second, and the most simple to the point one. Anything that tries to take us away from Torah is not for us. From the Jewish POV, looking at the Hebrew bible, a body of work written by Jews, for Jews, about Jews, on Jewish history and how to be Jews, written in the traditional Jewish Language, We see only one major theme, Torah is perfect, unchanging and forever it is enough and the only answer to any question a Jew could ever ask and that is what Jewish people are to do. Anything that comes to say anything diferent is not something we need bother with.

+1 excellent, absolutely excellent. Great to have you aboard!

Quoted: Quoted: And they called Hezekiah, Immanuel? Funny. The Bible doesn't say that. It says they called Hezekiah, well, Hezekiah. How about that. And they called Jesus, Immanuel? Funny. The Bible doesn't say that. It says they called Jesus, well, Jesus. How about that? Now they named my Great-grandfather Immanuel. Does that make him the Messiah? I think not. Note: the ending yahu on many biblical names also means "of G-d", (example Yirmayahu or in your book Jeremiah) and none of them were Messiah either. Well, to know what the Bible says you actually have to READ IT. Jesus Christ was called God, did the works that only God could do, and was worshipped as God.l Mt 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Mt 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. Mt 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. Mt 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live. Mt 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God. Mt 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. Mt 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him. Mt 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. Mr 5:6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, Lu 24:52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy: Joh 9: 26 Then said they to him again, What did he to thee? how opened he thine eyes? 27 He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear [it] again? will ye also be his disciples? 28 Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples. 29 We know that God spake unto Moses: [as for] this [fellow], we know not from whence he is. 30 The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and [yet] he hath opened mine eyes. 31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. 32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind. 33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing. 34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out. 35 ¶ Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? 36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? 37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. 38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. 39 ¶ And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. 40 And [some] of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? 41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

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That may work for Christians, criley, more so as the references you made are from the Christian Bible.  

Quoted: Quoted: "you visit the religion forum to troll and nothing more" ---  Actually, OldGuy has done nothing other than post Jewish viewpoints and beliefs.  Those who  argue are the trolls, such as you, sir.  Were you simply to approach the topic in a scholarly fashion, then you may come to appreciate the Jewish perspective--not like it, but understand it. Actually, OldGuy has repeatedly insulted Christianity as my first post in this thread clearly shows. That behavior in no way contributes anything to any discussion and should be banned before he winds up costing those of us that are serious about religion the opportunity of having this forum. If you cannot discuss religion without insulting others beliefs you should not be doing it here. He is  trolling and if you support him... well we all know one is judged by the company one keeps. "and your cohorts type as being worth a grain of salt" --- Now that is uncalled for and totally outrageous.  If there were a Moderator in this forum worth his "salt" he would have called you out.  You are a troll, sir. Not at all. By cohorts I mean fellow trolls and that would is quiet obvious. If you are outraged by it I must believe that it is because the comment struck home. - Oh, and your statement is truly the pot calling the kettle black Ed. You are well known in the IM world here at arfcom for trolling Christianity and then running out to cry in another thread when you get a taste of your medicine.

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You are well known in the IM world here at arfcom

The IM world?

for trolling Christianity ?

You are a sad one, where have I "trolled" Christianity?

running out to cry in another thread when you get a taste of your medicine

How did I do that?

Quoted: Quoted: You are 100% correct, I reject him. Jews did not accept him then and do not accept him now. That's not totally true.  The original church, when it formed, was 100% composed of Jews.  There were the disciples and other followers who acknowledged Him as the Meschiach.  This was in Jerusalem.  After Peter presented his apologetic to the crowd (recorded in Acts 2), three thousand believers were added to the church in Jerusalem. Yeshua was a Jew. The original members of the church were Jews. The Christian church (geographically) sprang forth from Jerusalem and the historic lands of Israel. Saul (later, Paul) was a very devout Jew who persecuted the early Christian church.  He was quite learned in Scripture.  He went on to become one of the biggest advocates for the Christian faith. So, to say "Jews did not accept him then..." is not historically accurate.

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The original church, when it formed, was 100% composed of Jews

What is read in the Gospels about Jesus is the product of later Christian imagination, and it reflects Christian, not Jewish views of the nature of the Messiah.  

Those around Jesus, including his own followers, did understand the messianic expectations in more traditional ways; a liberator of the Jews from the yoke of Roman rule.  The Church radically redefined the concept of the messiah to fit the story of Jesus.

The death and resurrection of the new Greek portrayal of Christos, in this novel messianic theory proved quite acceptable to Gentiles, who had no previous assumption about what the term Messiah ought to mean.

The gospel writers themselves were thoroughly accustomed to the transformed concept, and no doubt they firmly believed that it went back to Jesus himself.

It may be highly probable the gospel writers did not receive any tradition in which Jesus had claimed to be the Messiah, but actually were confronted with at least one in which he denied it outright.

The leaders of the early Church seem to have been fully aware of the conflict between Jesus’ own teaching and current messianic expectations.  They dealt with the conflict by remodeling the expectation of the messiah to fit what had actually happened to Jesus.  Mark’s gospel incorporates a particularly striking presentation of the remodeled concept of the messiah projected back into Jesus’ lifetime.

Source: Christian Anti-Semitism: A History of Hate.  William Nicholls.  Pp. 18, 89-90.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: "you visit the religion forum to troll and nothing more" ---  Actually, OldGuy has done nothing other than post Jewish viewpoints and beliefs.  Those who  argue are the trolls, such as you, sir.  Were you simply to approach the topic in a scholarly fashion, then you may come to appreciate the Jewish perspective--not like it, but understand it. Actually, OldGuy has repeatedly insulted Christianity as my first post in this thread clearly shows. That behavior in no way contributes anything to any discussion and should be banned before he winds up costing those of us that are serious about religion the opportunity of having this forum. If you cannot discuss religion without insulting others beliefs you should not be doing it here. He is  trolling and if you support him... well we all know one is judged by the company one keeps. "and your cohorts type as being worth a grain of salt" --- Now that is uncalled for and totally outrageous.  If there were a Moderator in this forum worth his "salt" he would have called you out.  You are a troll, sir. Not at all. By cohorts I mean fellow trolls and that would is quiet obvious. If you are outraged by it I must believe that it is because the comment struck home. - Oh, and your statement is truly the pot calling the kettle black Ed. You are well known in the IM world here at arfcom for trolling Christianity and then running out to cry in another thread when you get a taste of your medicine. ___________________________ You are well known in the IM world here at arfcom The IM world? for trolling Christianity ? You are a sad one, where have I "trolled" Christianity? running out to cry in another thread when you get a taste of your medicine How did I do that?

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PBIR...Where art thou...or are you full of yourself up to your neck?

I realized something in these threads.

We get the Jewish guys attacking Christianity, trying to disprove it.

However, they don't have to worry about a counter attack, because no Christians are trying to disprove the Jewish faith.  

Just an observation.

The problem is that the Defense of my position as a Jew goes against Pauline Christianity....James the Just had aname for Paul...'The Liar' original Christians were fundemental Jews, they sought not one but two Messiahs to save them. A priestly Messiah...John the Baptist and a Kingly Messiah Jesus, Both were killed to stop the movement. Paul created a different basis and adopted Jesus as a G*dhead, You want to understand Jesus, look to the Coptics and Gnoistics  they have better pedigrees as to the origional..

This is what I don't get about Jewish Messianism.... you believe the 1 God selected the smallest people on earth to merely survive? That God will send some great king or warrior to kick but among the gentiles and make this small minority rulers of the world...just because? And then what?

That's it?

I'm trying to make sense of the trajectory of things from a married couple in Adam and Eve, to a family in Abraham, to a people in Moses, to a Kingdom in David... and in each case more revelation was provided to clarify G-d's will, and his plan for humanity... the circle of his friendship was cast wider and wider.... but then BAM! all came crashing down in Babylon and never quite returned to normal. Obviously the "goal" of Israel couldn't have been merely to return to some Davidic glory because that short lived glory wasn't the "end" or purpose of Israel to begin with.

It makes sense that since Adam is the common father of all the living, that the next step would be to internationalise, to make "salvation" more than an ethnic-centric, blood-lines centric thing...after all, all men are created by the same God, not just this small minority.

Why shouldn't the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob wish to totally blow the lid off of things, via a Church which isn't just a super-sized military based kingdom? What do we know about G-d from his theophanies that make us think he just wanted to keep things small?

As for the Torah being perfect... sure, but perfection isn't the same thing as "only". An acorn may be perfect but still can grow into a sapling, which can be a perfect sapling but still become a tree, which in turn can be perfect as a tree but also later bear fruit.

After all, the Temple itself wasn't "perfect" as in insuperable or impossible to improve upon. The physical temple was a reflection of something bigger than what human hands could make.

Perfection doesn't PRECLUDE organic growth or even change.

After all, if the Torah was perfect as in insuperable, why the prophets? There was and is constant change among the Jewish community - even in the last 30 years. If G-d himself couldn't reveal more of his will beyond the 5 books, does this mean there are no prophets? They certainly added things not found in the Torah!

And liturgically, if the Torah is all there is, insuperable, not to be added to, you've been remiss in offering the only acceptible sacrifice to G-d for, oh, 1930 years or so since Titus leveled Jerusalem.

Then there are the serious historical problems you  get by holding on to the "Messiah is only a human military ruler who will liberate us (for a lifetime) from oppression": such a savior would be mortal and his "deliverance" from evil merely a hiatus, not a lasting victory.

Jews MUST claim Jesus couldn't possibly be Messiah and this Messiah couldn't possible be God and Israel couldn't possibly mean the literal salvation of the whole human race, because such claims are entirely "out of this world" - and thus beyond human control. To believe such things is to climb out of the driver's chair and into the passenger's seat and let G-d drive.

But hey, He warned you this would happen when the "people" clamored to make Saul king.

Quoted: This is what I don't get about Jewish Messianism.... you believe the 1 God selected the smallest people on earth to merely survive? That God will send some great king or warrior to kick but among the gentiles and make this small minority rulers of the world...just because? And then what? That's it? I'm trying to make sense of the trajectory of things from a married couple in Adam and Eve, to a family in Abraham, to a people in Moses, to a Kingdom in David... and in each case more revelation was provided to clarify G-d's will, and his plan for humanity... the circle of his friendship was cast wider and wider.... but then BAM! all came crashing down in Babylon and never quite returned to normal. Obviously the "goal" of Israel couldn't have been merely to return to some Davidic glory because that short lived glory wasn't the "end" or purpose of Israel to begin with. It makes sense that since Adam is the common father of all the living, that the next step would be to internationalise, to make "salvation" more than an ethnic-centric, blood-lines centric thing...after all, all men are created by the same God, not just this small minority. Why shouldn't the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob wish to totally blow the lid off of things, via a Church which isn't just a super-sized military based kingdom? What do we know about G-d from his theophanies that make us think he just wanted to keep things small? As for the Torah being perfect... sure, but perfection isn't the same thing as "only". An acorn may be perfect but still can grow into a sapling, which can be a perfect sapling but still become a tree, which in turn can be perfect as a tree but also later bear fruit. After all, the Temple itself wasn't "perfect" as in insuperable or impossible to improve upon. The physical temple was a reflection of something bigger than what human hands could make. Perfection doesn't PRECLUDE organic growth or even change. After all, if the Torah was perfect as in insuperable, why the prophets? There was and is constant change among the Jewish community - even in the last 30 years. If G-d himself couldn't reveal more of his will beyond the 5 books, does this mean there are no prophets? They certainly added things not found in the Torah! And liturgically, if the Torah is all there is, insuperable, not to be added to, you've been remiss in offering the only acceptible sacrifice to G-d for, oh, 1930 years or so since Titus leveled Jerusalem. Then there are the serious historical problems you  get by holding on to the "Messiah is only a human military ruler who will liberate us (for a lifetime) from oppression": such a savior would be mortal and his "deliverance" from evil merely a hiatus, not a lasting victory. Jews MUST claim Jesus couldn't possibly be Messiah and this Messiah couldn't possible be God and Israel couldn't possibly mean the literal salvation of the whole human race, because such claims are entirely "out of this world" - and thus beyond human control. To believe such things is to climb out of the driver's chair and into the passenger's seat and let G-d drive. But hey, He warned you this would happen when the "people" clamored to make Saul king.

Again, you are looking at it from a non Jewish POV, You imply we need salvation, or the Temple is the only way to offer something acceptable to Hashem, That the prophests added to Torah, ect, ect..

You present the needs as you see them and the truth as you see them and they are alien to Judaism, Then you offer a solution to the Straw man problems you have built up.

It is real simple, The Problems and need and understandings as you see them in regards to these Jewish things are not the Jewish understanding of these things.

I am not trying to convince you that you are wrong or Judaism is right, I dont need to and I have no mandate to do such, What I am trying to point out and have been in a few posts over the last few days is your non Jewish POV of these Jewish things is alien to the Jewish POV on these Jewish things.

Quoted: I realized something in these threads. We get the Jewish guys attacking Christianity, trying to disprove it. However, they don't have to worry about a counter attack, because no Christians are trying to disprove the Jewish faith.   Just an observation.

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Quite often the contrary is more experienced in this forum.

Instead of approaching religious differences from an educational viewpoint, what often is proferred by either Christian or non-Christian views is a vain redundancy of scripture.

Lacking has been an understanding of or appreciation of the Jewish perspective of Judaism; quite often in many of the posts, until quite recently, has there been any questions posed of Jewish belief.

Just a comment.
My grandmother [father's mom] was a german jew~her maiden name ~ Brinkhoff. She escaped Hitler and his minions and lost much family to them.
The only thing she ever had to say, teach or share on the subject was ...
"People are entitled to believe differently. They should never force those beliefs on others. But they should offer their view points in a mannerly way."

She raised all her children catholic by her husband's request. My grandfather and her got along very well.
they discussed all aspects of both religions. At her death, she told us how proud she was of us for believing in God. And that she was sure Jesus was somehow involved in our belief system, and that she was proud that we had ANY belief and never to regret that.

She was the epitomy of what the jewish women are that I have known,.... Kind, caring. accepting and non-judgemental. This is what being jewish or christian means to me. Whether it is from God or Jesus [one in the same as far as christian believe] it is from a caring loving guidance.

Quoted: Just a comment. My grandmother [father's mom] was a german jew~her maiden name ~ Brinkhoff. She escaped Hitler and his minions and lost much family to them. The only thing she ever had to say, teach or share on the subject was ... "People are entitled to believe differently. They should never force those beliefs on others. But they should offer their view points in a mannerly way." She raised all her children catholic by her husband's request. My grandfather and her got along very well. they discussed all aspects of both religions. At her death, she told us how proud she was of us for believing in God. And that she was sure Jesus was somehow involved in our belief system, and that she was proud that we had ANY belief and never to regret that. She was the epitomy of what the jewish women are that I have known,.... Kind, caring. accepting and non-judgemental. This is what being jewish or christian means to me. Whether it is from God or Jesus [one in the same as far as christian believe] it is from a caring loving guidance.

Nice post Joyce,  your Grandmother sounds like a sweet lady.

Ah, the old "you couldn't understand, it's a Jewish thing". Or POV. Certainly I wouldn't understand alot of cultural and linguistic innuendos etc. but since we both speak English, and we're both human, I don't think you can argue that the Jewish POV is sooooooooooo distinct from the gentile as to be completely incomprehensible.

In other words, this point of view business isn't the last word. It's a "lets agree to disagree" non statement.

What's vital is not to confuse what Jews TODAY believe with what Jews circa 200 BC or 1300 BC believed. After all, it's to be expected that if any Jews existed post Temple, that they'd have to re-image all of Judaeism in an anti-Nazarene fashion. The either/or dilemna was stark: his prophecy of the destruction of the temple came true, so either you had to take him as Messiah, or completely go ad hominem and re-interpret everything in ways that undercut whatever apologetic angle seemed challenging.

But that still doesn't solve the fundament problem of what Jews believed after Moses, during the time of the Judges, during the time of the prophets and kings, and just before the "common era".

It's obvious that modern Jews of all stripes don't accept Jesus as anything but a scoundrel. They couldn't and remain merely Jews. But re-interpreting the Law and prophets to preclude a given conclusion doesn't obviate the original interpretation and belief of the people.

And none of this - past or present - confines God to a given parameter of action. He constantly when beyond Jewish schemes or limits in the Old Testament - when the "people" and scribes were nailing down what He would and wouldn't do, He went beyond them. Healing a Syrian for example.

So again, sure, I have a POV. But in as much as scripture is INTELLIGIBLE at all, points of view are opinions not hermetrically sealed worlds.

Quoted: Ah, the old "you couldn't understand, it's a Jewish thing". Or POV. Certainly I wouldn't understand alot of cultural and linguistic innuendos etc. but since we both speak English, and we're both human, I don't think you can argue that the Jewish POV is sooooooooooo distinct from the gentile as to be completely incomprehensible. In other words, this point of view business isn't the last word. It's a "lets agree to disagree" non statement. What's vital is not to confuse what Jews TODAY believe with what Jews circa 200 BC or 1300 BC believed. After all, it's to be expected that if any Jews existed post Temple, that they'd have to re-image all of Judaeism in an anti-Nazarene fashion. The either/or dilemna was stark: his prophecy of the destruction of the temple came true, so either you had to take him as Messiah, or completely go ad hominem and re-interpret everything in ways that undercut whatever apologetic angle seemed challenging. But that still doesn't solve the fundament problem of what Jews believed after Moses, during the time of the Judges, during the time of the prophets and kings, and just before the "common era". It's obvious that modern Jews of all stripes don't accept Jesus as anything but a scoundrel. They couldn't and remain merely Jews. But re-interpreting the Law and prophets to preclude a given conclusion doesn't obviate the original interpretation and belief of the people. And none of this - past or present - confines God to a given parameter of action. He constantly when beyond Jewish schemes or limits in the Old Testament - when the "people" and scribes were nailing down what He would and wouldn't do, He went beyond them. Healing a Syrian for example. So again, sure, I have a POV. But in as much as scripture is INTELLIGIBLE at all, points of view are opinions not hermetrically sealed worlds.

I for one have never said you could not understand, I have stated that the non Jewish POV is alien to the Jewish POV, big difference. It is SOOOOOO distinct from the gentile POV, that doesnt make it incoprehensable though.

To say Judaism has been changed all over the world for the purpose of trying to make it anti Jesus is silly. Jewish communities have lived all over the world since before Jesus. There is no central authority and secret Jewish telegraph system that exists in order to change Judaism of all these communities in order to effect a change such as you propose. As far as saying jesus had to be True because his prophesies were so stark, again that is silly, The Hebrew Bibile predicted these things long before Jesus, such as the destruction of the second Temple, and you do not take into account the many prophesies he did not fulfil, we dont even have to worry about the fact that from a Jewish POV 99% of what you claim are fullfilment of prphesies, where never prophesies in the first place.

and again, you make another assertion as to what Jews believe "Jesus was a scoundrel" That is not true either. For the most part, as can be found in the writings of the Ramban, the Jesus mythos is a collection of characters that was later mixed with other pagen mythos and redacted into a sellable story.

So please stop asserting what Jews think, Dont confuse the pointing out of how different our POVs are for me saying you wouldnt understand, What I am saying is you dont understand, not that you couldnt. I have said it before, and I will repeat it, These are Jewish works, The Jews look at it their way. I have no desire to convince you we are right or call you wrong, just to get you to understand we have damned good reasons for seeing it how we do.

It's obvious that modern Jews of all stripes don't accept Jesus as anything but a scoundrel.

This comment alone adequetly describes your POV.

No he is a Rabbi, a teacher, and a leader of the Esscene.

Quoted: It's obvious that modern Jews of all stripes don't accept Jesus as anything but a scoundrel.   This comment alone adequetly describes your POV.

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+1