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Originally Posted By Raidersgone: Why did you skip/ignore Matthew 6:3-8 in my reply to your questioning? Since your trying to evangelize me? You are unable to teach me anything. I know in whom I have believed, and know HIM who guides me into all truth. It's true, JESUS promised. Do you "know" JESUS and does HE know you? Originally Posted By Raidersgone: Originally Posted By Anastasios: Matthew 16:24,25 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 16:25 "For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. NOTE 16:24 The cross, a dreaded instrument of Roman punishment, is also a symbol of suffering by Christians in imitation of Christ. We practice self-denial for the sake of the love of God and the gospel. Accepting this suffering is not punishment, nor is it an end in itself, but a means to overcome the fallen world for the sake of the Kingdom and to crucify the flesh with its passions and desires (Gal 5:24). 16:25 The central paradox of Christian living is that in grasping for temporal things, we lose the eternal; but in sacrificing everything in this world, we gain eternal riches that are unimaginable (1Co 2:9). Matthew 6:16-18 16_"Moreover, when you fast, do not be like the hypocrites, with a sad countenance. For they disfigure their faces that they may appear to men to be fasting. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 17 "But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18 "so that you do not appear to men to be fasting, but to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. NOTE 6:16-18 Keeping a sad countenance to show off one's fasting is mere external display. Jesus rejects such hypocrisy. For the one who fasts, the compassion of God outshines the physical discomfort. During the fasting seasons of the Church, the hymns call the faithful to wash and anoint their faces (thus, there is no "Ash Wednesday" in the Orthodox Church). Fasting is for spiritual growth and the glory of God, not to be seen by those around us. Fasting also is not merely abstinence from food, but consists of self-denial in all areas of life in order to escape the control of the passions. On the eve of Great Lent, we sing, "Let us abstain from passions as we abstain from food." Matthew 4:1-4 1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterward He was hungry. 3 Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, "If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread." 4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God " NOTE 4:2-10 Jesus reverses Israel's falling to temptation in the wilderness. The Israelites were tested forty years in the wilderness and proved disobedient and disloyal. God humbled them by first letting them go hungry and then feeding them with manna to help them learn to be dependent on Him (Dt 8:2-5). Here, Jesus is tested with hunger for forty days, but He does not sin. His answers to Satan are from Deuteronomy, and all call for loyalty to God. Jesus fasted to overcome temptation, giving us an example of our own power and limitations in the face of temptation. The hunger of His flesh does not control Him; rather, He controls His flesh. Our Lord's fast of forty days is the foundation of the Church's forty-day Lenten fast before Holy Week and of the fast before Christmas. 4:3 The devil challenges Christ's relationship to the Father. If You are the Son of God calls into question the Father's declaration at Christ's Baptism (3:17). The devil wants Jesus to act independently and to detach Himself from the will of the Father. In His divine nature, Christ shares one will with the Father and the Holy Spirit; He can do nothing of Himself (Jn 5:30), apart from the Father. But in His humanity, He possesses free will and at all times must choose to remain obedient to the divine will of the Father. Genesis 14:18-20 18 Now Melchizedek the king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High. 19 He blessed Abram and said, "Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth; 20 and blessed be God Most High, who delivered your enemies into your hands." Then Abram gave him a tithe of all. Why did you skip/ignore Matthew 6:3-8 in my reply to your questioning? Since your trying to evangelize me? You are unable to teach me anything. I know in whom I have believed, and know HIM who guides me into all truth. It's true, JESUS promised. Do you "know" JESUS and does HE know you? 6:3, 4 God is not impressed with what others think of us, nor by what we think of ourselves. God will reward good deeds when they are based on pure motives of the heart. 6:5 8 The hypocrites miss the spirit of prayer, which is an intimate, personal communion with God that leads to the vision of His glory (1Co 2:9). Hypocrisy blocks out this communion and this vision. Vain repetitions cannot establish this communion, for God does not need our "babble." To partake of this communion, both silence and words are necessary. Therefore, we pray always (Lk 18:1) and without ceasing (1Th 5:17). Christ does not condemn the use of many words per se, but teaches that words must express the desire for communion with God. Jesus gives us specific words to repeat (vv. 9-13). It is not repetition itself that is condemned, but vain repetition. Many psalms, prayers, and hymns of the Church have been repeated for countless generations in the worship of God "in spirit and truth" (Jn 4:23). True prayer is not telling God what He already knows and then telling Him what to do about it, nor is it appearing pious in front of others. True prayer is (1) humble (go into your room, v. 6), (2) personal (pray to your Father, v. 6), and (3) sincere (do not use vain repetitions, v. 7). |
The man who cries out against evil men but does not pray for them will never know the grace of God.
-St. Silouan the Athonite
-St. Silouan the Athonite
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Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Not that you can't have one while also having intermediaries, but why then did God always use intermediaries? The only time God did not use intermediaries was the short span of time that Jesus was preaching, and setting up intermediaries... as an intermediary. Adam – The initial prophetic namer and intermediary for humanity. Enoch – Walked with God and prophesied of divine judgment. Noah – Intermediary who built the ark and a preacher of righteousness. Melchizedek – The ancient King-Priest of Salem who blessed Abraham. Abraham – The foundational patriarch explicitly designated by God as a prophet. Sarah – Patriarchal matriarch recognized in tradition for her divine revelation. Isaac – Patriarch who passed down the divine covenant blessings. Jacob – Patriarch who wrestled with God and prophesied over his twelve sons. Joseph – Intermediary who interpreted prophetic dreams to save nations. Moses – The preeminent old-covenant intermediary, lawgiver, and prophet. Aaron – Moses' spokesman and the foundational High Priest of Israel. Nadab & Abihu – Priests and sons of Aaron who offered unauthorized fire. Eleazar & Ithamar – Sons of Aaron who succeeded to the priesthood. Miriam – Sister of Moses and the first explicitly named prophetess. Phinehas – Zealous High Priest during the wilderness wandering and conquest. Joshua – Successor to Moses who acted as a prophetic leader and intermediary. Abishua, Bukki, & Uzzi – Sequential early High Priests during the era of the Judges. Deborah – Prophetess and Judge who led Israel to military victory. Eli – High Priest and Judge who raised Samuel at Shiloh. Elkanah – Father of Samuel, recognized in priestly and prophetic lineages. Hannah – Mother of Samuel who delivered a highly specific prophetic prayer. Samuel – The transitional final Judge, priest, and foundational monarchy prophet. Ahitub, Ahijah, & Ahimelech – Successive High Priests during the reign of King Saul. Gad – David's personal seer and advisor who recorded his reign. Nathan – Prophet who confronted David and relayed the Davidic Covenant. David – King of Israel, prolific prophetic psalmist, and covenant intermediary. Asaph, Heman, & Jeduthun – Priestly musicians appointed by David who prophesied with instruments. Abiathar – High Priest loyal to David who was later exiled by Solomon. Zadok – Faithful High Priest who anointed Solomon and established a lasting priestly line. Solomon – King, builder of the Temple, and recipient of direct prophetic wisdom. Ahimaaz & Azariah – High Priests serving during and immediately after Solomon’s reign. Ahijah the Shilonite – Prophet who predicted the tearing away of the ten northern tribes. Shemaiah – Prophet who prevented Rehoboam from waging war on Israel. Iddo – Seer who wrote chronicles concerning Jeroboam and Rehoboam. Azariah son of Oded – Prophet who motivated King Asa's religious reforms. Hanani – Seer who rebuked King Asa for relying on Syria. Jehu son of Hanani – Prophet who pronounced judgment on King Baasha. Elijah – Miracle-working northern prophet who confronted Ahab and the prophets of Baal. Micaiah son of Imlah – Prophet who predicted Ahab's death at Ramoth-gilead. Jehoiarib & Jehoshaphat – High Priests listed in the mid-monarchy eras. Elisha – Elijah's successor who requested a double portion of his prophetic spirit. Jahaziel – Levite priest who prophesied victory for King Jehoshaphat without fighting. Eliezer – Prophet who rebuked Jehoshaphat for allying with wicked King Ahaziah. Jehoiada – High Priest who orchestrated the overthrow of Athaliah and restored Joash. Zechariah son of Jehoiada – Priest and prophet stoned for rebuking King Joash. Pediah & Zedekiah – High Priests listed during the mid-to-late Judean kingdom. Obadiah – Prophet who wrote a vision predicting the absolute destruction of Edom. Joel – Prophet who warned Judah of the upcoming "Day of the Lord" via a locust plague. Jonah – Northern prophet sent by God to preach repentance to Nineveh. Amos – Judean shepherd called to preach social justice to northern Israel. Hosea – Prophet commanded to marry a prostitute to symbolize Israel’s unfaithfulness. Azariah II – High Priest who famously confronted King Uzziah for burning incense. Isaiah & Amoz – High-court prophet of Judah and his father. Micah – Rural prophet who predicted the exact birthplace of the Messiah. Oded – Northern prophet who convinced Israel to release captured Judean prisoners. Jotham, Uriah, & Azariah III – High Priests serving through the reigns of Ahaz and Hezekiah. Nahum – Prophet who wrote an oracle detailing the final fall of Nineveh. Huldah – Prophetess who validated the rediscovered Scroll of the Law for King Josiah. Zephaniah – Royal-blooded prophet who preached during the reforms of Josiah. Hoshaiah & Shallum – High Priests in the twilight years of Judah. Habakkuk – Prophet who questioned God regarding the choice of Babylon as an instrument of judgment. Urijah – Prophet executed by King Jehoiakim for echoing Jeremiah's warnings. Jeremiah – The "Weeping Prophet" who witnessed and warned of Jerusalem's fall. Neriah, Baruch, Seraiah, & Mahseiah – Priestly scribes and disciples of Jeremiah who recorded prophecy. Hilkiah – High Priest who discovered the Book of the Law in the Temple under Josiah. Seraiah – The final High Priest of the First Temple, executed by Nebuchadnezzar. Daniel – Statesman-prophet in Babylon who received expansive apocalyptic visions. Ezekiel – Priest and prophet exiled to Babylon who saw the glory of God depart and return. Joshua (Jeshua) son of Jozadak – The first High Priest of the rebuilt Second Temple. Haggai – Post-exilic prophet who urged the returning remnants to rebuild the Temple. Zechariah son of Iddo – Companion prophet to Haggai who saw structural and messianic visions. Ezra – Priestly scribe who led the second wave of exiles back and restored Torah study. Joiakim, Eliashib, Joiada, Johanan, & Jaddua – The chronological succession of post-exilic High Priests. Mordecai – Sage of the diaspora who acted as an intermediary for Jews in Persia. Malachi – The final Old Testament prophet who rebuked corrupt priests and promised a coming messenger. Zechariah – Priest of the division of Abijah and father of John the Baptist. Simeon – Righteous man in the Temple moved by the Holy Spirit to prophesy over infant Jesus. Anna – Elderly prophetess who stayed in the Temple worshipping and proclaiming the Messiah. John the Baptist – The bridge prophet who prepared the way for Jesus in the spirit of Elijah. Caiaphas – The ruling High Priest during the earthly ministry and crucifixion of Jesus. MARY JESUS CHRIST Peter Andrew James John Philip Bartholomew Thomas Matthew James Thaddaeus Judas Simon Matthias Paul Apostolic successors... I am not saying that intermediaries are not useful or even very helpful, as they clearly can be. I am saying that they are not necessary, as God's power to connect with us is innate to Him. Consider a man stranded upon a deserted island with only a bible and a genuine desire to connect with God. Surely this is possible. |
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Originally Posted By ParityError: I am not saying that intermediaries are not useful or even very helpful, as they clearly can be. I am saying that they are not necessary, as God's power to connect with us is innate to Him. Consider a man stranded upon a deserted island with only a bible and a genuine desire to connect with God. Surely this is possible. Originally Posted By ParityError: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Not that you can't have one while also having intermediaries, but why then did God always use intermediaries? The only time God did not use intermediaries was the short span of time that Jesus was preaching, and setting up intermediaries... as an intermediary. Adam – The initial prophetic namer and intermediary for humanity. Enoch – Walked with God and prophesied of divine judgment. Noah – Intermediary who built the ark and a preacher of righteousness. Melchizedek – The ancient King-Priest of Salem who blessed Abraham. Abraham – The foundational patriarch explicitly designated by God as a prophet. Sarah – Patriarchal matriarch recognized in tradition for her divine revelation. Isaac – Patriarch who passed down the divine covenant blessings. Jacob – Patriarch who wrestled with God and prophesied over his twelve sons. Joseph – Intermediary who interpreted prophetic dreams to save nations. Moses – The preeminent old-covenant intermediary, lawgiver, and prophet. Aaron – Moses' spokesman and the foundational High Priest of Israel. Nadab & Abihu – Priests and sons of Aaron who offered unauthorized fire. Eleazar & Ithamar – Sons of Aaron who succeeded to the priesthood. Miriam – Sister of Moses and the first explicitly named prophetess. Phinehas – Zealous High Priest during the wilderness wandering and conquest. Joshua – Successor to Moses who acted as a prophetic leader and intermediary. Abishua, Bukki, & Uzzi – Sequential early High Priests during the era of the Judges. Deborah – Prophetess and Judge who led Israel to military victory. Eli – High Priest and Judge who raised Samuel at Shiloh. Elkanah – Father of Samuel, recognized in priestly and prophetic lineages. Hannah – Mother of Samuel who delivered a highly specific prophetic prayer. Samuel – The transitional final Judge, priest, and foundational monarchy prophet. Ahitub, Ahijah, & Ahimelech – Successive High Priests during the reign of King Saul. Gad – David's personal seer and advisor who recorded his reign. Nathan – Prophet who confronted David and relayed the Davidic Covenant. David – King of Israel, prolific prophetic psalmist, and covenant intermediary. Asaph, Heman, & Jeduthun – Priestly musicians appointed by David who prophesied with instruments. Abiathar – High Priest loyal to David who was later exiled by Solomon. Zadok – Faithful High Priest who anointed Solomon and established a lasting priestly line. Solomon – King, builder of the Temple, and recipient of direct prophetic wisdom. Ahimaaz & Azariah – High Priests serving during and immediately after Solomon’s reign. Ahijah the Shilonite – Prophet who predicted the tearing away of the ten northern tribes. Shemaiah – Prophet who prevented Rehoboam from waging war on Israel. Iddo – Seer who wrote chronicles concerning Jeroboam and Rehoboam. Azariah son of Oded – Prophet who motivated King Asa's religious reforms. Hanani – Seer who rebuked King Asa for relying on Syria. Jehu son of Hanani – Prophet who pronounced judgment on King Baasha. Elijah – Miracle-working northern prophet who confronted Ahab and the prophets of Baal. Micaiah son of Imlah – Prophet who predicted Ahab's death at Ramoth-gilead. Jehoiarib & Jehoshaphat – High Priests listed in the mid-monarchy eras. Elisha – Elijah's successor who requested a double portion of his prophetic spirit. Jahaziel – Levite priest who prophesied victory for King Jehoshaphat without fighting. Eliezer – Prophet who rebuked Jehoshaphat for allying with wicked King Ahaziah. Jehoiada – High Priest who orchestrated the overthrow of Athaliah and restored Joash. Zechariah son of Jehoiada – Priest and prophet stoned for rebuking King Joash. Pediah & Zedekiah – High Priests listed during the mid-to-late Judean kingdom. Obadiah – Prophet who wrote a vision predicting the absolute destruction of Edom. Joel – Prophet who warned Judah of the upcoming "Day of the Lord" via a locust plague. Jonah – Northern prophet sent by God to preach repentance to Nineveh. Amos – Judean shepherd called to preach social justice to northern Israel. Hosea – Prophet commanded to marry a prostitute to symbolize Israel’s unfaithfulness. Azariah II – High Priest who famously confronted King Uzziah for burning incense. Isaiah & Amoz – High-court prophet of Judah and his father. Micah – Rural prophet who predicted the exact birthplace of the Messiah. Oded – Northern prophet who convinced Israel to release captured Judean prisoners. Jotham, Uriah, & Azariah III – High Priests serving through the reigns of Ahaz and Hezekiah. Nahum – Prophet who wrote an oracle detailing the final fall of Nineveh. Huldah – Prophetess who validated the rediscovered Scroll of the Law for King Josiah. Zephaniah – Royal-blooded prophet who preached during the reforms of Josiah. Hoshaiah & Shallum – High Priests in the twilight years of Judah. Habakkuk – Prophet who questioned God regarding the choice of Babylon as an instrument of judgment. Urijah – Prophet executed by King Jehoiakim for echoing Jeremiah's warnings. Jeremiah – The "Weeping Prophet" who witnessed and warned of Jerusalem's fall. Neriah, Baruch, Seraiah, & Mahseiah – Priestly scribes and disciples of Jeremiah who recorded prophecy. Hilkiah – High Priest who discovered the Book of the Law in the Temple under Josiah. Seraiah – The final High Priest of the First Temple, executed by Nebuchadnezzar. Daniel – Statesman-prophet in Babylon who received expansive apocalyptic visions. Ezekiel – Priest and prophet exiled to Babylon who saw the glory of God depart and return. Joshua (Jeshua) son of Jozadak – The first High Priest of the rebuilt Second Temple. Haggai – Post-exilic prophet who urged the returning remnants to rebuild the Temple. Zechariah son of Iddo – Companion prophet to Haggai who saw structural and messianic visions. Ezra – Priestly scribe who led the second wave of exiles back and restored Torah study. Joiakim, Eliashib, Joiada, Johanan, & Jaddua – The chronological succession of post-exilic High Priests. Mordecai – Sage of the diaspora who acted as an intermediary for Jews in Persia. Malachi – The final Old Testament prophet who rebuked corrupt priests and promised a coming messenger. Zechariah – Priest of the division of Abijah and father of John the Baptist. Simeon – Righteous man in the Temple moved by the Holy Spirit to prophesy over infant Jesus. Anna – Elderly prophetess who stayed in the Temple worshipping and proclaiming the Messiah. John the Baptist – The bridge prophet who prepared the way for Jesus in the spirit of Elijah. Caiaphas – The ruling High Priest during the earthly ministry and crucifixion of Jesus. MARY JESUS CHRIST Peter Andrew James John Philip Bartholomew Thomas Matthew James Thaddaeus Judas Simon Matthias Paul Apostolic successors... I am not saying that intermediaries are not useful or even very helpful, as they clearly can be. I am saying that they are not necessary, as God's power to connect with us is innate to Him. Consider a man stranded upon a deserted island with only a bible and a genuine desire to connect with God. Surely this is possible. Why does the Bible help? |
History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which Trump is always right.
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
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Originally Posted By ParityError: I am not saying that intermediaries are not useful or even very helpful, as they clearly can be. I am saying that they are not necessary, as God's power to connect with us is innate to Him. Consider a man stranded upon a deserted island with only a bible and a genuine desire to connect with God. Surely this is possible. Originally Posted By ParityError: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Not that you can't have one while also having intermediaries, but why then did God always use intermediaries? The only time God did not use intermediaries was the short span of time that Jesus was preaching, and setting up intermediaries... as an intermediary. Adam – The initial prophetic namer and intermediary for humanity. Enoch – Walked with God and prophesied of divine judgment. Noah – Intermediary who built the ark and a preacher of righteousness. Melchizedek – The ancient King-Priest of Salem who blessed Abraham. Abraham – The foundational patriarch explicitly designated by God as a prophet. Sarah – Patriarchal matriarch recognized in tradition for her divine revelation. Isaac – Patriarch who passed down the divine covenant blessings. Jacob – Patriarch who wrestled with God and prophesied over his twelve sons. Joseph – Intermediary who interpreted prophetic dreams to save nations. Moses – The preeminent old-covenant intermediary, lawgiver, and prophet. Aaron – Moses' spokesman and the foundational High Priest of Israel. Nadab & Abihu – Priests and sons of Aaron who offered unauthorized fire. Eleazar & Ithamar – Sons of Aaron who succeeded to the priesthood. Miriam – Sister of Moses and the first explicitly named prophetess. Phinehas – Zealous High Priest during the wilderness wandering and conquest. Joshua – Successor to Moses who acted as a prophetic leader and intermediary. Abishua, Bukki, & Uzzi – Sequential early High Priests during the era of the Judges. Deborah – Prophetess and Judge who led Israel to military victory. Eli – High Priest and Judge who raised Samuel at Shiloh. Elkanah – Father of Samuel, recognized in priestly and prophetic lineages. Hannah – Mother of Samuel who delivered a highly specific prophetic prayer. Samuel – The transitional final Judge, priest, and foundational monarchy prophet. Ahitub, Ahijah, & Ahimelech – Successive High Priests during the reign of King Saul. Gad – David's personal seer and advisor who recorded his reign. Nathan – Prophet who confronted David and relayed the Davidic Covenant. David – King of Israel, prolific prophetic psalmist, and covenant intermediary. Asaph, Heman, & Jeduthun – Priestly musicians appointed by David who prophesied with instruments. Abiathar – High Priest loyal to David who was later exiled by Solomon. Zadok – Faithful High Priest who anointed Solomon and established a lasting priestly line. Solomon – King, builder of the Temple, and recipient of direct prophetic wisdom. Ahimaaz & Azariah – High Priests serving during and immediately after Solomon’s reign. Ahijah the Shilonite – Prophet who predicted the tearing away of the ten northern tribes. Shemaiah – Prophet who prevented Rehoboam from waging war on Israel. Iddo – Seer who wrote chronicles concerning Jeroboam and Rehoboam. Azariah son of Oded – Prophet who motivated King Asa's religious reforms. Hanani – Seer who rebuked King Asa for relying on Syria. Jehu son of Hanani – Prophet who pronounced judgment on King Baasha. Elijah – Miracle-working northern prophet who confronted Ahab and the prophets of Baal. Micaiah son of Imlah – Prophet who predicted Ahab's death at Ramoth-gilead. Jehoiarib & Jehoshaphat – High Priests listed in the mid-monarchy eras. Elisha – Elijah's successor who requested a double portion of his prophetic spirit. Jahaziel – Levite priest who prophesied victory for King Jehoshaphat without fighting. Eliezer – Prophet who rebuked Jehoshaphat for allying with wicked King Ahaziah. Jehoiada – High Priest who orchestrated the overthrow of Athaliah and restored Joash. Zechariah son of Jehoiada – Priest and prophet stoned for rebuking King Joash. Pediah & Zedekiah – High Priests listed during the mid-to-late Judean kingdom. Obadiah – Prophet who wrote a vision predicting the absolute destruction of Edom. Joel – Prophet who warned Judah of the upcoming "Day of the Lord" via a locust plague. Jonah – Northern prophet sent by God to preach repentance to Nineveh. Amos – Judean shepherd called to preach social justice to northern Israel. Hosea – Prophet commanded to marry a prostitute to symbolize Israel’s unfaithfulness. Azariah II – High Priest who famously confronted King Uzziah for burning incense. Isaiah & Amoz – High-court prophet of Judah and his father. Micah – Rural prophet who predicted the exact birthplace of the Messiah. Oded – Northern prophet who convinced Israel to release captured Judean prisoners. Jotham, Uriah, & Azariah III – High Priests serving through the reigns of Ahaz and Hezekiah. Nahum – Prophet who wrote an oracle detailing the final fall of Nineveh. Huldah – Prophetess who validated the rediscovered Scroll of the Law for King Josiah. Zephaniah – Royal-blooded prophet who preached during the reforms of Josiah. Hoshaiah & Shallum – High Priests in the twilight years of Judah. Habakkuk – Prophet who questioned God regarding the choice of Babylon as an instrument of judgment. Urijah – Prophet executed by King Jehoiakim for echoing Jeremiah's warnings. Jeremiah – The "Weeping Prophet" who witnessed and warned of Jerusalem's fall. Neriah, Baruch, Seraiah, & Mahseiah – Priestly scribes and disciples of Jeremiah who recorded prophecy. Hilkiah – High Priest who discovered the Book of the Law in the Temple under Josiah. Seraiah – The final High Priest of the First Temple, executed by Nebuchadnezzar. Daniel – Statesman-prophet in Babylon who received expansive apocalyptic visions. Ezekiel – Priest and prophet exiled to Babylon who saw the glory of God depart and return. Joshua (Jeshua) son of Jozadak – The first High Priest of the rebuilt Second Temple. Haggai – Post-exilic prophet who urged the returning remnants to rebuild the Temple. Zechariah son of Iddo – Companion prophet to Haggai who saw structural and messianic visions. Ezra – Priestly scribe who led the second wave of exiles back and restored Torah study. Joiakim, Eliashib, Joiada, Johanan, & Jaddua – The chronological succession of post-exilic High Priests. Mordecai – Sage of the diaspora who acted as an intermediary for Jews in Persia. Malachi – The final Old Testament prophet who rebuked corrupt priests and promised a coming messenger. Zechariah – Priest of the division of Abijah and father of John the Baptist. Simeon – Righteous man in the Temple moved by the Holy Spirit to prophesy over infant Jesus. Anna – Elderly prophetess who stayed in the Temple worshipping and proclaiming the Messiah. John the Baptist – The bridge prophet who prepared the way for Jesus in the spirit of Elijah. Caiaphas – The ruling High Priest during the earthly ministry and crucifixion of Jesus. MARY JESUS CHRIST Peter Andrew James John Philip Bartholomew Thomas Matthew James Thaddaeus Judas Simon Matthias Paul Apostolic successors... I am not saying that intermediaries are not useful or even very helpful, as they clearly can be. I am saying that they are not necessary, as God's power to connect with us is innate to Him. Consider a man stranded upon a deserted island with only a bible and a genuine desire to connect with God. Surely this is possible. Sure, and that's an extraordinary circumstance, not the circumstance we find ourselves in at all. But where did that Bible come from? |
Give me that old time religion
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Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Sure, and that's an extraordinary circumstance, not the circumstance we find ourselves in at all. But where did that Bible come from? What is life but a series of extraordinary circumstances chained together? Perhaps the Bible was in his belongings when he was marooned. Perhaps it belonged to another passenger on what ever conveyance brought him to the island, and he began to find God through the scripture. The point is that one can find a connection to God outside of an organized religion. Can an organized religion facilitate it? Absolutely, where the organized religion is doing what it does in the actual service of God. |
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“ If you rat on the Parade of Hope, you'll be lucky to find your toenails. These guys are the roughest of all the charities.”
“ If you rat on the Parade of Hope, you'll be lucky to find your toenails. These guys are the roughest of all the charities.”
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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Why does the Bible help? An interesting question. It introduces the reader to God, perhaps. Although certainly God could find another means of making Himself known to the person. I don't really have an answer there. |
Avatar stolen from Ranger Up.
“ If you rat on the Parade of Hope, you'll be lucky to find your toenails. These guys are the roughest of all the charities.”
“ If you rat on the Parade of Hope, you'll be lucky to find your toenails. These guys are the roughest of all the charities.”
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Originally Posted By ParityError: What is life but a series of extraordinary circumstances chained together? Perhaps the Bible was in his belongings when he was marooned. Perhaps it belonged to another passenger on what ever conveyance brought him to the island, and he began to find God through the scripture. The point is that one can find a connection to God outside of an organized religion. Can an organized religion facilitate it? Absolutely, where the organized religion is doing what it does in the actual service of God. Originally Posted By ParityError: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Sure, and that's an extraordinary circumstance, not the circumstance we find ourselves in at all. But where did that Bible come from? What is life but a series of extraordinary circumstances chained together? Perhaps the Bible was in his belongings when he was marooned. Perhaps it belonged to another passenger on what ever conveyance brought him to the island, and he began to find God through the scripture. The point is that one can find a connection to God outside of an organized religion. Can an organized religion facilitate it? Absolutely, where the organized religion is doing what it does in the actual service of God. And for that man I said sure. But the vast majority of us have been given the graces to have a deeper relationship with Him and the Church that He founded and maintains. He expects His investment to be returned with interest (Matthew 25)(Luke 12:48). If you wish to rest your laurels on doing the bare minimum and professing a lukewarm relationship based on perceived extraordinary circumstance; I'm afraid you will find Christ isn't so forgiving. He doesn't like men coming in by the back door, circumventing those he put in positions of authority as His ministers; spiritual Karens as it were (John 10). |
Give me that old time religion
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Originally Posted By networkguru: Read the Bible. Period, end story. No need to ask anyone else. It will speak to you. You dont need anyone to explain it. That isn't what the Bible says. 2 Peter 3:16, Acts 8:30, 1 Timothy 3:15, etc. Not to mention there are churches in scripture, why would there be churches? If all a man needs to find the true faith is the Bible, then why are there as many interpretations as there are men? |
Give me that old time religion
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Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: That isn't what the Bible says. 2 Peter 3:16, Acts 8:30, 1 Timothy 3:15, etc. Not to mention there are churches in scripture, why would there be churches? If all a man needs to find the true faith is the Bible, then why are there as many interpretations as there are men? You just answered your own question |
Lately overheard in Mayfair
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Originally Posted By doubleplusgood: There are as many interpretations as there are men It is a personal path It is a personal path sure, but in a singular direction and to a singular destination. Heresy is a sin, as is schism. What you are suggesting is just religious indifferentism, and rejecting Jesus as the only path to God the Father. This is also a good example of the Protestant Revolution leading to Modern Liberalism. Woke is the logical conclusion of the Enlightenment. |
Give me that old time religion
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Originally Posted By doubleplusgood: So does Protestantism lead to god through Jesus? Or is Catholicism the only way? Depends on culpability. The Catholic Church teaches they can, even people who have never heard the Gospel or of Jesus through no fault of their own can go to heaven via God's natural law written on our hearts. To know of and reject is a different story. |
Give me that old time religion
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Originally Posted By doubleplusgood: Must they reject Protestantism and adopt Catholicism? Or do Baptists or Presbyterians, etc. reach the father through the sun? Again, it depends on culpability but yes the Church teaches that it's possible. Summary from the Catechism: "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the head through the Church which is his body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on Earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation. “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men”" |
Give me that old time religion
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Does Jesus teach that the church is necessary for salvation or is that the voice of man speaking? I mean John 316 is pretty straightforward For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life |
Lately overheard in Mayfair
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Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Again, it depends on culpability but yes the Church teaches that it's possible. Where does that leave my group? We can read for ourselves that the See of Rome possesses the keys to heaven, but we have not observed that this insulates you from error to the degree we would like in order for us to (once again) be under your complete jurisdiction. EDIT: We also find anathematizing people for things not observable in Scripture to be...odd. |
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Originally Posted By doubleplusgood: Does Jesus teach that the church is necessary for salvation or is that the voice of man speaking? I mean John 316 is pretty straightforward Yes and no, depends on culpability as I've answered above; He instituted sacraments and a Church to dispense them. So the Church says yes in ordinary circumstances but with exceptions due to culpability. "I mean John 316 is pretty straightforward" Is it? What does it mean to believe in Him? Do you believe in Him if you reject the Church He instituted and the Authority He ordained? Do you believe in Him if you reject one baptism, the Eucharist, and the unity of His faith? The New Testament alone is close to 180,000 words, seems like there's more to it than only John 3:16. |
Give me that old time religion
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Originally Posted By wswartzendruber: Where does that leave my group? We can read for ourselves that the See of Rome possesses the keys to heaven, but we have not observed that this insulates you from error to the degree we would like in order for us to (once again) be under your complete jurisdiction. EDIT: We also find anathematizing people for things not observable in Scripture to be...odd. Originally Posted By wswartzendruber: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Again, it depends on culpability but yes the Church teaches that it's possible. Where does that leave my group? We can read for ourselves that the See of Rome possesses the keys to heaven, but we have not observed that this insulates you from error to the degree we would like in order for us to (once again) be under your complete jurisdiction. EDIT: We also find anathematizing people for things not observable in Scripture to be...odd. Group? Same laws apply, why couldn't Anglicans get to heaven? What error are we talking about here? And what anathema? |
Give me that old time religion
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Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Group? Same laws apply, why couldn't Anglicans get to heaven? What error are we talking about here? Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Group? Same laws apply, why couldn't Anglicans get to heaven? What error are we talking about here? Most of the errors are from 500 years ago. I would consider the functional sale of indulgences to be an error, even if the Church had a legitimate need to fund an army against the jihadists of the time. Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: And what anathema? The perpetual virginity of the Holy Mother is probably a good example, as is the apparent requirement to salute and venerate icons (Nicaea II). |
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Originally Posted By wswartzendruber: Most of the errors are from 500 years ago. I would consider the functional sale of indulgences to be an error, even if the Church had a legitimate need to fund an army against the jihadists of the time. The perpetual virginity of the Holy Mother is probably a good example, as is the apparent requirement to salute and venerate icons (Nicaea II). Originally Posted By wswartzendruber: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Group? Same laws apply, why couldn't Anglicans get to heaven? What error are we talking about here? Most of the errors are from 500 years ago. I would consider the functional sale of indulgences to be an error, even if the Church had a legitimate need to fund an army against the jihadists of the time. Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: And what anathema? The perpetual virginity of the Holy Mother is probably a good example, as is the apparent requirement to salute and venerate icons (Nicaea II). Do you believe there is never a justified reason for money to grant an indulgence? And do you believe in the 16th century people were forced to buy them and at the same time were ignorant of the fact they could simply recite prayers or attend Mass on certain Holydays for indulgences? Not to excuse the priests and con-artists masquerading as priests of their sins. But no one ever said the Church wouldn't have sinners in it. I see the perpetual virginity of Mary clearly in scripture and in tradition. As for the icons, it's not the icon itself but what they represent, and what they represent is someone who lived Christlike, died in Christ, and is now participating in the divinity of Christ; so yes, they deserve all the honor we can give them, for Christ. |
Give me that old time religion
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| Even the Copts teach the perpetual virginity of Mary. If the Church fell into error that far back, we all have bigger problems. |
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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: The author of that epistle interpreted it the way you do, why even wrote it? If the recipient interpreted it the way you do, why even read it? And definitely why keep it? Shouldn't he have just said "you're not the boss of me, I can't learn anything from you?" But, you do you. You're in popular, if not good, company. Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Originally Posted By Raidersgone: Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Originally Posted By Raidersgone: You are unable to teach me anything. Every once in a while, you confess a great truth. Yes, I told you truth. Once again, 1 John 27~ But the anointing which you have received of Him (He who has promised) abideth in you, and "you need not that any man teach you": but as the same anointing teacheth you of "all" things, "and is truth", and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, you shall abide in Him. You reject the WORD in your dead religion. I believe GOD. I told you I know in whom I have believed, and HE knows me. HIS Spirit beareth witness. I will no longer cast pearls to swine. The author of that epistle interpreted it the way you do, why even wrote it? If the recipient interpreted it the way you do, why even read it? And definitely why keep it? Shouldn't he have just said "you're not the boss of me, I can't learn anything from you?" But, you do you. You're in popular, if not good, company. To my brother @ Bishop3, I see you were condemned also again by the modern Pharisees for sharing pearls. The LORD laid these upon my heart to share to you, Matthew 11:25-27, Luke 6:45, Luke 10:21-22, most of all Matthew 5:10-12. |
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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: When brianm asked if we were "just throwing out random snippets of the Bible and trying to form coherent thoughts," did that inspire you to outdo even yourself in that regard? Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Originally Posted By Bishop3: To find connection with God, I personally cried out to Jesus. There is power in His name. He came to my rescue. Thank you Jesus. To be certain, Amen amen, you must be born again (born from above). Born of God, born of His Spirit. Without that regeneration (born from above) of the Holy Spirit you will not see the kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is near! I didn't call out to my church. I cried out to the Savior! There is your connection! God came to my rescue and manifested Himself to me personally. Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. Now false religion loves its exclusivity. What did Jesus rebuke the unbelieving Pharisees for? They burdened people with mam made rules so as to be acceptable or qualified to receive from God. Go to church, we are designed for community. That is the assembly of the called out and God loves fellowship (family)! Where two or three are gathered in His name, He is in their midst. The truth is, there is one body. Jesus, through His shed blood, has fulfilled the law perfectly once and for all. The prophets have all testified to the Word of God. Pay attention: Love has fulfilled the Law and we are saved by His gift (grace, charis) through faith. Do you believe this? Or, do you judge yourself? It is the Lord who judges me. Jesus is who He says He is. Know who you are in Him ('Christ in you, the hope of glory'), then you'll have in you the connection with God you so desire. An religious institution can not substitute for knowing Him (this is the will of God). Pay attention all ye church goers. If you have an ear, listen. Joel 2:32 “And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls.” Acts 2:21 (Peter the Lord's Apostle quoting Joel at Pentecost) “And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Romans 10:13 (Paul quoting the same promise) “For ‘everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’” God keeps his promises (His Word), He's not like us men! It is impossible for Him to lie. Who will you compare Him with? God wants you to know Him, Jesus is the Way. John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. John 17:25-26 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.” ~ Jesus I know who I am in Christ. God is my Father. Jesus is Lord. The Holy Spirit is my witness. You can say you know Him, but does He know you? Jesus is the Son of God. When brianm asked if we were "just throwing out random snippets of the Bible and trying to form coherent thoughts," did that inspire you to outdo even yourself in that regard? I am more than a conqueror through Him that loved me. An overcomer, redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. I know who I am in Christ. I belong to Him! Revelation 12:10-11 ... Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. I am not ashamed of my Lord and Savior. I will declare His name before men; Jesus is Lord! The Holy Spirit is my witness. |
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Originally Posted By wswartzendruber: You do it by reading the Scriptures in isolation and coming up with wild ideas about what they mean. Amen and hallelujah...? A known televangelist was under sedation following surgery of some sort, and he had a vision of a 900 foot tall Jesus telling him to do something magnificent. He did the magnificent thing and the ministry never really recovered from it financially. I know this because my father in law worked directly for him. Over the decades I have seen the dangers of people winging their faith by going it alone. And when some of those people have managed to build up a following by starting churches or ministries, I have seen them damage and shipwreck the faiths of others. The same can happen when the shepherds in established denominations are actually wolves, as we have seen in the Catholic Church, the Southern Baptist Convention, etc., but it is not as likely. We all remember Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker. |
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Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot: When someone disconnects from "Religion" or "Church" in the name of a "personal" relationship it sounds like they have rejected the real "Jesus Christ" of the Bible and invented their own version of a counterfeit Jesus. It kind of sounds like they have made themselves a prophet who will reinterpret or filter out anything in the Bible they disagree with. It's a power trip, an inflated ego, rejecting many of Jesus' teachings in the name of a "personal relationship" with a "personally invented" counterfeit Jesus. A personal relationship with Jesus Christ is something I found at Church and I continue to experience it in his presence. At a Catholic Mass heaven opens and the real presence of Jesus Christ is there in the Eucharist. He gives us his Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity with Communion and he dwells within us. That's a "real presence" "personal" relationship with Jesus. While you are describing what you see when individuals try to create a relationship with God outside of the church, speaking as someone who has tried to connect with organized religion, this description fits pretty aptly with why many reject it. The church as we know it is a manmade entity. I know some very devout and good people who truly believe in and offer the church as a true path to God, but I also know of many more who use the power of the church for their own agenda and benefit. While it may be riddled with faults, I have chosen my own riddled path over that which others have created as the church. I believe that if I live a life that follows the teachings of Christ, I am as much a Christian as any church goer. I am sure many of you will disagree, but that is fine. |
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Originally Posted By DADGAD: While you are describing what you see when individuals try to create a relationship with God outside of the church, speaking as someone who has tried to connect with organized religion, this description fits pretty aptly with why many reject it. The church as we know it is a manmade entity. I know some very devout and good people who truly believe in and offer the church as a true path to God, but I also know of many more who use the power of the church for their own agenda and benefit. While it may be riddled with faults, I have chosen my own riddled path over that which others have created as the church. I believe that if I live a life that follows the teachings of Christ, I am as much a Christian as any church goer. I am sure many of you will disagree, but that is fine. Originally Posted By DADGAD: Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot: When someone disconnects from "Religion" or "Church" in the name of a "personal" relationship it sounds like they have rejected the real "Jesus Christ" of the Bible and invented their own version of a counterfeit Jesus. It kind of sounds like they have made themselves a prophet who will reinterpret or filter out anything in the Bible they disagree with. It's a power trip, an inflated ego, rejecting many of Jesus' teachings in the name of a "personal relationship" with a "personally invented" counterfeit Jesus. A personal relationship with Jesus Christ is something I found at Church and I continue to experience it in his presence. At a Catholic Mass heaven opens and the real presence of Jesus Christ is there in the Eucharist. He gives us his Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity with Communion and he dwells within us. That's a "real presence" "personal" relationship with Jesus. While you are describing what you see when individuals try to create a relationship with God outside of the church, speaking as someone who has tried to connect with organized religion, this description fits pretty aptly with why many reject it. The church as we know it is a manmade entity. I know some very devout and good people who truly believe in and offer the church as a true path to God, but I also know of many more who use the power of the church for their own agenda and benefit. While it may be riddled with faults, I have chosen my own riddled path over that which others have created as the church. I believe that if I live a life that follows the teachings of Christ, I am as much a Christian as any church goer. I am sure many of you will disagree, but that is fine. The obvious question is how anyone can purport to follow the teachings of Christ, and not seek out the Eucharist. |
History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which Trump is always right.
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
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Originally Posted By DADGAD: While you are describing what you see when individuals try to create a relationship with God outside of the church, speaking as someone who has tried to connect with organized religion, this description fits pretty aptly with why many reject it. The church as we know it is a manmade entity. I know some very devout and good people who truly believe in and offer the church as a true path to God, but I also know of many more who use the power of the church for their own agenda and benefit. While it may be riddled with faults, I have chosen my own riddled path over that which others have created as the church. I believe that if I live a life that follows the teachings of Christ, I am as much a Christian as any church goer. I am sure many of you will disagree, but that is fine. What about the Church Christ founded? |
Give me that old time religion
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Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: What about the Church Christ founded? Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Originally Posted By DADGAD: While you are describing what you see when individuals try to create a relationship with God outside of the church, speaking as someone who has tried to connect with organized religion, this description fits pretty aptly with why many reject it. The church as we know it is a manmade entity. I know some very devout and good people who truly believe in and offer the church as a true path to God, but I also know of many more who use the power of the church for their own agenda and benefit. While it may be riddled with faults, I have chosen my own riddled path over that which others have created as the church. I believe that if I live a life that follows the teachings of Christ, I am as much a Christian as any church goer. I am sure many of you will disagree, but that is fine. What about the Church Christ founded? Mark 8:38 "If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels." ~ Jesus I will follow Him; He is the Way. |
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Originally Posted By Bishop3: Mark 8:38 "If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels." ~ Jesus I will follow Him; He is the Way. Originally Posted By Bishop3: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Originally Posted By DADGAD: While you are describing what you see when individuals try to create a relationship with God outside of the church, speaking as someone who has tried to connect with organized religion, this description fits pretty aptly with why many reject it. The church as we know it is a manmade entity. I know some very devout and good people who truly believe in and offer the church as a true path to God, but I also know of many more who use the power of the church for their own agenda and benefit. While it may be riddled with faults, I have chosen my own riddled path over that which others have created as the church. I believe that if I live a life that follows the teachings of Christ, I am as much a Christian as any church goer. I am sure many of you will disagree, but that is fine. What about the Church Christ founded? Mark 8:38 "If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels." ~ Jesus I will follow Him; He is the Way. Rejecting and outright mocking His Church and His sacraments is quite an interesting way to choose to follow. |
History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which Trump is always right.
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
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Originally Posted By Gullskjegg:What about the Church Christ founded? I am happy for those who have found a good place in the church, but for me, I haven't found that participation in a manmade institution has brought me any closer to God, and too often it was the opposite. |
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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:The obvious question is how anyone can purport to follow the teachings of Christ, and not seek out the Eucharist. Hear what our Lord Jesus saith: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Matthew 22:37-40 |
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Originally Posted By DADGAD: Is that truly what we have today? Even with the best and most devout of intentions, two thousand years has shaped any church I have been in contact with into what the men in charge wanted it to be. Sometimes for good, often not so good, but always in the form made by man, not God. I am happy for those who have found a good place in the church, but for me, I haven't found that participation in a manmade institution has brought me any closer to God, and too often it was the opposite. Originally Posted By DADGAD: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg:What about the Church Christ founded? I am happy for those who have found a good place in the church, but for me, I haven't found that participation in a manmade institution has brought me any closer to God, and too often it was the opposite. It is made of men, but it is not manmade, it was and is divinely instituted. It’s ~ 2000 years old now, and if it has failed then Christs promise was false. |
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Originally Posted By DADGAD: Is that directed at me? Originally Posted By DADGAD: Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:Rejecting and outright mocking His Church and His sacraments is quite an interesting way to choose to follow. No, the guy I quoted and his tag-team buddy, for the most part. They have a... reputation. |
History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which Trump is always right.
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
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Originally Posted By DADGAD: We all have to find what works for us, and in all my years of attending church, this is what always stuck with me. This can absolutely be done without the church or the Eucharist. It may be cherry picking verses, but we all have to find our own way and this works for me. Hear what our Lord Jesus saith: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Matthew 22:37-40 Originally Posted By DADGAD: Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:The obvious question is how anyone can purport to follow the teachings of Christ, and not seek out the Eucharist. Hear what our Lord Jesus saith: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Matthew 22:37-40 A church unto his own is nothing more than the worship of self. So of course you’ll like it the most as it fits you the best, because it is you. |
Give me that old time religion
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Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: It is made of men, but it is not manmade, it was and is divinely instituted. It's ~ 2000 years old now, and if it has failed then Christs promise was false. Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Originally Posted By DADGAD: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg:What about the Church Christ founded? I am happy for those who have found a good place in the church, but for me, I haven't found that participation in a manmade institution has brought me any closer to God, and too often it was the opposite. It's ~ 2000 years old now, and if it has failed then Christs promise was false. I guess that is where there is no arguing. It all comes down to faith, and if that is where your faith leads you, then I fully respect that, even if I don't agree. In my experiences, each and every church I have been in have all had the obvious stamp of the men who created it. Why else would a Southern Baptist church be so different from a New England Friends House, from a Norwegian Protestant church, from an Italian Roman Catholic church, from an Eastern Orthodox Church? And on and on. While they may have a common base of Christianity, the churches themselves are all reflections of the men who created them. |
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Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: A church unto his own is nothing more than the worship of self. So of course you'll like it the most as it fits you the best, because it is you. Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Originally Posted By DADGAD: Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:The obvious question is how anyone can purport to follow the teachings of Christ, and not seek out the Eucharist. Hear what our Lord Jesus saith: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Matthew 22:37-40 A church unto his own is nothing more than the worship of self. So of course you'll like it the most as it fits you the best, because it is you. Also in my experiences, the harder someone pushes their way as the only way, the more I see their personal agenda clouding their argument. |
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Originally Posted By DADGAD: Who is to judge that? You? That is quite a position you have put yourself in. I can say with pretty great certainty that if I truly do my best to live my life and to raise my kids in the way of "love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind and love thy neighbor as thyself," I will have lived a far more Christian life than MANY who regularly attend church, regularly take the Eucharist, and profess loudly their piety, including MANY church leaders, who can often be the worst of all. Also in my experiences, the harder someone pushes their way as the only way, the more I see their personal agenda clouding their argument. |
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Originally Posted By ParityError: I am not saying that intermediaries are not useful or even very helpful, as they clearly can be. I am saying that they are not necessary, as God's power to connect with us is innate to Him. Consider a man stranded upon a deserted island with only a bible and a genuine desire to connect with God. Surely this is possible. The Bible itself is an intermediary. Written by men and canonized by men through which God worked. It is possible? Surely. It is the normative way which Christ desires us to come to Him? No. Christ Jesus established a Church with teaching authority and told those men to "make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." He did not say to hand out Bibles (there was no Christian Bible at that time) and let men figure it out for themselves. For example: death bed confessions of faith, martyr's baptism, baptism of desire, etc. are all established as valid, but not regular. The normative desire of Christ is that one be baptized with water and Spirit, the Sacrament of Baptism. Likewise the normative desire of Christ is to be a disciple of the Church He left for us. To point at the exceptions and then conclude the normative means are not necessary is rebellious to what Jesus commanded. |
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Originally Posted By DADGAD: Who is to judge that? You? That is quite a position you have put yourself in. I can say with pretty great certainty that if I truly do my best to live my life and to raise my kids in the way of "love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind and love thy neighbor as thyself," I will have lived a far more Christian life than MANY who regularly attend church, regularly take the Eucharist, and profess loudly their piety, including MANY church leaders, who can often be the worst of all. Also in my experiences, the harder someone pushes their way as the only way, the more I see their personal agenda clouding their argument. Originally Posted By DADGAD: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Originally Posted By DADGAD: Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:The obvious question is how anyone can purport to follow the teachings of Christ, and not seek out the Eucharist. Hear what our Lord Jesus saith: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Matthew 22:37-40 A church unto his own is nothing more than the worship of self. So of course you'll like it the most as it fits you the best, because it is you. Also in my experiences, the harder someone pushes their way as the only way, the more I see their personal agenda clouding their argument. What is God doing in our lives after all? The Father loves the Son. He is conforming us to the image of His dear Son. Philippians 2:13 For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him. So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;... Romans 8:28-30 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. He is a good Father! We can only know Him through His Son. Abba. John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. |
USMC 85-'93 Amphibious YAT-YAS
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Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. EDIT: I underlined a rather interesting part of the 2019 Anglican Eucharistic rite, knowing that over two-thirds of Americans calling themselves Christian don't even know what a sacrament is. Attached File |
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Originally Posted By wswartzendruber: Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. EDIT: I underlined a rather interesting part of the 2019 Anglican Eucharistic rite, knowing that over two-thirds of Americans calling themselves Christian don't even know what a sacrament is. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/318440/7490_jpg-3804049.JPG Do you call yourself a 'Christian'? What do you look like, do you look like Christ? 1 John 3:1-3 See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. |
USMC 85-'93 Amphibious YAT-YAS