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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Evolution vs. God (Page 1 of 3)

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8/13/2013 4:06:31 PM EDT

The whole video here


The Blaze on the topic
8/13/2013 5:08:40 PM EDT
[#1]
thanks
8/21/2013 11:44:10 AM EDT
[#2]
Honestly, that was just the same old arguments creationist have been making for years. Attacking evolution does not somehow make God real.

The tail bone and appendix were at one time thought to serve no purpose, but we now know different. How is that relevant? "Evolutionist claim that....." Ummm, no they don't!

There are perfectly acceptable ways of disproving evolution. Find a fossil in a time frame where it doesn't belong.

Creationist have trouble with the big bang stating that something can not come from nothing....yet are perfectly willing to accept that God came from nothing? Give me a break......

Arguing morals such as rape and lust has nothing to do with evolution. If their intent is to show that morals come from religion then they're barking up the wrong tree...they'll lose that argument.
8/21/2013 11:51:14 AM EDT
[#3]
Why not both?
8/21/2013 12:12:17 PM EDT
[#4]
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Mutually exclusive.......and hence, why creationist attack evolution.
8/21/2013 12:51:30 PM EDT
[#5]


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Mutually exclusive.......and hence, why creationist attack evolution.
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Why not both?






Mutually exclusive.......and hence, why creationist attack evolution.



Not mutually exclusive at all.  To think so is extremely small-minded.  I'm not calling you small-minded.  But I am calling creationists who discount evolution, and evolutionists who discount Godhead creation small-minded.





 
8/21/2013 2:57:34 PM EDT
[#6]
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Not mutually exclusive at all.  To think so is extremely small-minded.  I'm not calling you small-minded.  But I am calling creationists who discount evolution, and evolutionists who discount Godhead creation small-minded.
 
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Why not both?


Mutually exclusive.......and hence, why creationist attack evolution.

Not mutually exclusive at all.  To think so is extremely small-minded.  I'm not calling you small-minded.  But I am calling creationists who discount evolution, and evolutionists who discount Godhead creation small-minded.
 

I respectfully disagree. There is no way you can reconsile the book of Genesis with eveolution while maintaining the same detail paid to the scripture throughout the rest of the book.

You'd have to claim genesis is metaphorical, yet won't do the same thing for the rest of the bible.

I am curious though as to how you claim their not mutually exclusive at all?
8/21/2013 3:03:59 PM EDT
[#7]
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Not mutually exclusive at all.  To think so is extremely small-minded.  I'm not calling you small-minded.  But I am calling creationists who discount evolution, and evolutionists who discount Godhead creation small-minded.
 
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Why not both?


Mutually exclusive.......and hence, why creationist attack evolution.

Not mutually exclusive at all.  To think so is extremely small-minded.  I'm not calling you small-minded.  But I am calling creationists who discount evolution, and evolutionists who discount Godhead creation small-minded.
 

I'm also curious if you would consider a creationist who refuses to accept the possibile existance of other gods small minded?
8/21/2013 3:08:25 PM EDT
[#8]
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same here
8/21/2013 3:31:41 PM EDT
[#9]


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I respectfully disagree. There is no way you can reconsile the book of Genesis with eveolution while maintaining the same detail paid to the scripture throughout the rest of the book.





You'd have to claim genesis is metaphorical, yet won't do the same thing for the rest of the bible.





I am curious though as to how you claim their not mutually exclusive at all?
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I respectfully disagree. There is no way you can reconsile the book of Genesis with eveolution while maintaining the same detail paid to the scripture throughout the rest of the book.





You'd have to claim genesis is metaphorical, yet won't do the same thing for the rest of the bible.





I am curious though as to how you claim their not mutually exclusive at all?
Genesis was not written as a scientific text.  This video is a good explanation of this.    Your premise that the bible must be interpreted either entirely literally or entirely metaphorically for every part of every book is a false dichotomy.  The Bible is made of various books written for various purposes throughout several millenia.











 
8/21/2013 3:35:40 PM EDT
[#10]
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Genesis was not written as a scientific text.  This video is a good explanation of this.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVsbVAVSssc
 
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I respectfully disagree. There is no way you can reconsile the book of Genesis with eveolution while maintaining the same detail paid to the scripture throughout the rest of the book.

You'd have to claim genesis is metaphorical, yet won't do the same thing for the rest of the bible.

I am curious though as to how you claim their not mutually exclusive at all?
Genesis was not written as a scientific text.  This video is a good explanation of this.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVsbVAVSssc
 


I understand that...unfortunately I'm at the airport with pathetically slow internet so I can't watch the video you put up, but can you tell me if the Pastor is as critical of Genesis as he is other scripture? Perhaps the scripture that bans gay marriage for example?
8/21/2013 4:43:31 PM EDT
[#11]






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....can you tell me if the Pastor is as critical of Genesis as he is other scripture? Perhaps the scripture that bans gay marriage for example?
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....can you tell me if the Pastor is as critical of Genesis as he is other scripture? Perhaps the scripture that bans gay marriage for example?
I wouldn't say that Fr. Barron is being critical of Genesis at all.  He says that written works should be read in light of their genre.  An example of this would be that you wouldn't read a novel the same way you would a newspaper or a scientific journal.  Also, modern science begins to take form in the 15th century.  Obviously, Genesis was written long before that, so there is no reason we should expect it to have modern science in mind.
It would seem reasonable for you to object to this and say that this is just a cop out way of interpreting Genesis so that it doesn't conflict with modern science.  This would be true if this were a new way of interpreting interpreting it.  However, we see this type of allegorical understanding in the early Church in the writings of Origen and Augustine.
I hope that makes sense. Have a safe flight!
ETA:  Oh awesome, I found an article that accompanies the video and is basically a transcript of it.
The Genesis Problem
By Rev. Robert Barron
I’m continually amazed how often the "problem” of Genesis comes up in my
work of evangelization and apologetics.  What I mean is the way people
struggle with the seemingly bad science that is on display in the
opening chapters of the first book of the Bible.  How can anyone believe
that God made the visible universe in six days, that all the species
were created at the same time, that light existed before the sun and
moon, etc., etc?  How can believers possibly square the naïve cosmology
of Genesis with the textured and sophisticated theories of Newton,
Darwin, Einstein, and Stephen Hawking?
One of the most important principles of Catholic Biblical interpretation
is that the reader of the Scriptural texts must be sensitive to the
genre or literary type of the text with which he is dealing.  Just as it
would be counter-indicated to read Moby Dick as history or "The Waste
Land” as social science, so it is silly to interpret, say, "The Song of
Songs” as journalism or the Gospel of Matthew as a spy novel.  By the
same token, it is deeply problematic to read the opening chapters of
Genesis as a scientific treatise.  If I can borrow an insight from Fr.
George Coyne, a Jesuit priest and astrophysicist, no Biblical text can
possibly be "scientific” in nature, since "science,” as we understand
it, first emerged some fourteen centuries after the composition of the
last Biblical book.  The author of Genesis simply wasn’t doing what
Newton, Darwin, Einstein, and Hawking were doing; he wasn’t attempting
to explain the origins of things in the characteristically modern
manner, which is to say, on the basis of empirical observation, testing
of hypotheses, marshalling of evidence, and experimentation.  Therefore,
to maintain that the opening chapters of Genesis are "bad science” is a
bit like saying "The Iliad” is bad history or "The Chicago Tribune” is
not very compelling poetry.
So what precisely was that ancient author trying to communicate?  Once
we get past the "bad science” confusion, the opening of the Bible gives
itself to us in all of its theological and spiritual power.  Let me
explore just a few dimensions of this lyrical and evocative text.  We
hear that Yahweh brought forth the whole of created reality through
great acts of speech:  "Let there be light,’ and there was light; ‘Let
the dry land appear’ and so it was.”  In almost every mythological
cosmology in the ancient world, God or the gods establish order through
some act of violence.  They conquer rival powers or they impose their
will on some recalcitrant matter.  (How fascinating, by the way, that we
still largely subscribe to this manner of explanation, convinced that
order can be maintained only through violence or the threat of
violence).  But there is none of this in the Biblical account.  God
doesn’t subdue some rival or express his will through violence.  Rather,
through a sheerly generous and peaceful act of speech, he gives rise to
the whole of the universe.  This means that the most fundamental truth
of things—the metaphysics that governs reality at the deepest level—is
peace and non-violence.  Can you see how congruent this is with Jesus’
great teachings on non-violence and enemy love in the Sermon on the
Mount?  The Lord is instructing his followers how to live in accord with
the elemental grain of the universe.
Secondly, we are meant to notice the elements of creation that are
explicitly mentioned in this account:  the heavens, the stars, the sun,
the moon, the earth itself, the sea, the wide variety of animals that
roam the earth.  Each one of these was proposed by various cultures in
the ancient world as objects of worship.  Many of the peoples that
surrounded Israel held sky, stars, sun, moon, the earth, and various
animals to be gods.  By insisting that these were, in fact, created by
the true God, the author of Genesis was, not so subtly, de-throning
false claimants to divinity and disallowing all forms of idolatry.  Mind
you, the author of Genesis never tires of reminding us that everything
that God made is good (thus holding off all forms of dualism,
Manichaeism and Gnosticism), but none of these good things is the
ultimate good.
A third feature that we should notice is the position and role of Adam,
the primal human, in the context of God’s creation.  He is given the
responsibility of naming the animals , "all the birds of heaven and all
the wild beasts” (Gen. 2:20).  The Church fathers read this as follows:
naming God’s creatures in accord with the intelligibility placed in
them by the Creator, Adam is the first scientist and philosopher, for he
is, quite literally, "cataloguing” the world he sees around him.  (Kata
Logon means "according to the word”).  From the beginning, the author
is telling us, God accords to his rational creatures the privilege of
participating, through their own acts of intelligence, in God’s
intelligent ordering of the world.  This is why, too, Adam is told, not
to dominate the world, but precisely to "cultivate and care for it”
(Gen. 2: 16), perpetuating thereby the non-violence of the creative act.
These are, obviously, just a handful of insights among the dozens that
can be culled from this great text.  My hope is that those who are
tripped up by the beginning of the book of Genesis can make a small but
essential interpretive adjustment and see these writings as they were
meant to be seen:  not as primitive science, but as exquisite theology.
http://www.wordonfire.org/Written-Word/articles-commentaries/February-2011/The-Genesis-Problem.aspx

 
8/21/2013 4:53:23 PM EDT
[#12]
evolution vs God??

How do we know God didn't use evolution?  I don't remember (in what little I've read) that it says God never tried more than once.  If a tool failed, he used a different tool.  He just kept working with different tools till he got what he wanted.  Or did he?  Maybe we're being tested now.  If we fail, what will be tried next?

Don't get hung up in either/or.  The world is a mysterious place we only think we understand.
8/22/2013 7:38:21 AM EDT
[#13]
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I wouldn't say that Fr. Barron is being critical of Genesis at all.  He says that written works should be read in light of their genre.  An example of this would be that you wouldn't read a novel the same way you would a newspaper or a scientific journal.  Also, modern science begins to take form in the 15th century.  Obviously, Genesis was written long before that, so there is no reason we should expect it to have modern science in mind.

It would seem reasonable for you to object to this and say that this is just a cop out way of interpreting Genesis so that it doesn't conflict with modern science.  This would be true if this were a new way of interpreting interpreting it.  However, we see this type of allegorical understanding in the early Church in the writings of Origen and Augustine.

I hope that makes sense. Have a safe flight!

ETA:  Oh awesome, I found an article that accompanies the video and is basically a transcript of it.

 
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....can you tell me if the Pastor is as critical of Genesis as he is other scripture? Perhaps the scripture that bans gay marriage for example?
I wouldn't say that Fr. Barron is being critical of Genesis at all.  He says that written works should be read in light of their genre.  An example of this would be that you wouldn't read a novel the same way you would a newspaper or a scientific journal.  Also, modern science begins to take form in the 15th century.  Obviously, Genesis was written long before that, so there is no reason we should expect it to have modern science in mind.

It would seem reasonable for you to object to this and say that this is just a cop out way of interpreting Genesis so that it doesn't conflict with modern science.  This would be true if this were a new way of interpreting interpreting it.  However, we see this type of allegorical understanding in the early Church in the writings of Origen and Augustine.

I hope that makes sense. Have a safe flight!

ETA:  Oh awesome, I found an article that accompanies the video and is basically a transcript of it.

 


Thank you for the great reply, that makes sense.

I wonder then why there are still so many Christians that attack, or flat out deny evolution? I do understand that if you interpret Genesis to be literal or interpret Genesis to be metaphorical and evolution played a role it has pretty much no bearing on anything else in the bible.

Then, there is still my argument that this way of thinking about Genesis (which I like BTW) is not applied to the rest of the bible. Gay marriage for example (without starting an argument). Could/should we not look at Leviticus and come to the same conclusion?
8/22/2013 10:15:32 AM EDT
[#14]



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I wonder then why there are still so many Christians that attack, or flat out deny evolution?
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I wonder then why there are still so many Christians that attack, or flat out deny evolution?
There are many folks who read Genesis literally.  I think it comes down to the difference in Biblical interpretation between Protestants and Catholics.  A Catholic, Orthodox, and some Protestants would be comfortable reading and interpreting the Bible in light of the interpretive traditions passed down from Judaism and from the Apostles and their successors in the Early Church.  Other Protestants, for various reason, prefer to read the Bible with little to no outside influence, and I think a total literal view is the "tidiest" in this situation.  
So pretty much, IMHO, young earth folks are reading the Bible in isolation and coming up with their own interpretation and then doubling down on it when modern science contradicts them.  




Then, there is still my argument that this way of thinking about Genesis
(which I like BTW) is not applied to the rest of the bible. Gay
marriage for example (without starting an argument). Could/should we not
look at Leviticus and come to the same conclusion?




If you'd like to discuss this some more, maybe we can start another thread so this one doesn't get sidetracked.  However, here's the short answer.  It is the same situation as Genesis, where we read books of the Bible in light of their genre rather than applying some one-size-fits-all interpretive framework to every book in the Bible.
So for example, here are the verses in Leviticus that people often point out:






Leviticus 18:22




English Standard Version (ESV)









22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.











Leviticus 20:13




English Standard Version (ESV)









13 If
a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an
abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon
them.





Proponents of the normalization of homosexuality will point out that there are also requirements in Leviticus that seem bizarre by today's standard.  Leviticus was written as a big list of laws given by God to Moses for the Jews to follow. If you read Lev 18-20, you will notice that pretty much all of the laws there cover morality we would recognize today, with some random stuff mixed in like not making clothes out of two different types of materials.  If there's both ceremonial stuff that doesn't apply today and moral stuff that does apply today, then someone could say that we can't know which is which.  For the sake of argument, let's say that this is true, we can't know if Leviticus condemns homosexuality or not.
Fortunately, we have instances in the New Testament epistles, which are generally pretty straightforward instructions to Christian Churches of the time.
In the very first Chapter of Paul's epistle to the Romans, we have this:






Romans 1:26-27




English Standard Version (ESV)









26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.









Seems clear enough.  
Furthermore, we have this in 1 Corinthians:












1 Corinthians 6:9-11




English Standard Version (ESV)









9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous[a][/sup] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,[sup][/sup][b][/sup] [sup]10 [/sup]nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [sup]11 [/sup]And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.





Again, homosexual acts seem to go in the "don't do that" category.
So even if the meaning and relevance of the Leviticus verses is questionable, the New Testament evidence, read in the context of its genre, should easily put that objection to rest.
That the Bible condemns homosexual acts is clear.  Accepting it and many other truths, on the other hand, isn't always easy.
I hope that makes sense.  I'm certainly no Bible scholar.    If you'd like to discuss it some more, start a thread on it and let me know.





 

 
8/22/2013 11:20:57 AM EDT
[#15]




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I respectfully disagree. There is no way you can reconsile the book of Genesis with eveolution while maintaining the same detail paid to the scripture throughout the rest of the book.
You'd have to claim genesis is metaphorical, yet won't do the same thing for the rest of the bible.
I am curious though as to how you claim their not mutually exclusive at all?
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Why not both?

Mutually exclusive.......and hence, why creationist attack evolution.





Not mutually exclusive at all.  To think so is extremely small-minded.  I'm not calling you small-minded.  But I am calling creationists who discount evolution, and evolutionists who discount Godhead creation small-minded.




 





I respectfully disagree. There is no way you can reconsile the book of Genesis with eveolution while maintaining the same detail paid to the scripture throughout the rest of the book.
You'd have to claim genesis is metaphorical, yet won't do the same thing for the rest of the bible.
I am curious though as to how you claim their not mutually exclusive at all?





Speaking Old Testament...
The Book of Genesis is an obvious metaphor for an unscientific and mythological understanding of the beginning of the universe.  As science gets closer and closer to understanding that brief moment of creation, we get closer to merging truth and faith.  Science can't answer what came before, and neither can religion.  Faith is religion's way of accepting the unanswerable.  Science can never do that, as our human curiosity demands that we question even God.
It's interesting that the concept of void and light that so accurately describes the Big Bang (or the precipitate model, or whatever scientific model of the moment of creation is best supported by facts at this time...) is also present in nearly every creation myth there is - as humans, we can't conceive of a moment before the beginning without substance to begin it with.



So we reconcile our ignorance by inventing a Godhead creator (not that there isn't a Godhead creator, it's just that we are ignorant of what the truth of the nature of the Godhead is,) while we work to understand the science of God's many paintbrushes, one of which is Natural Selection.






 


 
8/22/2013 2:36:52 PM EDT
[#16]
Did you know that we can not accurately date the earth because of all the environmental changes that have occurred  since its existance?  The data actually came from meteorites, one being the canyon diablo meteorite. If the environment here on earth can make it where you can't date it, is it feasible that the things ON or IN the earth could be affected by those changes as well and make them unable to be dated?  We need to remember that neither one of the opinions of how the earth was created can be proven. People just put their belief/faith in one or the other. When we die, if Christians are right we will all know it. If evolutionists are right, well, I guess we won't know anything because there won't be an afterlife.
8/22/2013 2:39:18 PM EDT
[#17]




 






IMAGINE A WORLD WHERE THE WORLD IS FLAT!!











 
8/22/2013 6:24:27 PM EDT
[#18]
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IMAGINE A WORLD WHERE THE WORLD IS FLAT!!


 
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IMAGINE A WORLD WHERE THE WORLD IS FLAT!!


 


Or a world where we have quarantined and eliminated people with genetic defects!
8/22/2013 7:04:37 PM EDT
[#19]
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Or a world where we have quarantined and eliminated people with genetic defects!
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IMAGINE A WORLD WHERE THE WORLD IS FLAT!!


 


Or a world where we have quarantined and eliminated people with genetic defects!


I don't think Darwinism means what you think it means.
8/23/2013 11:47:07 AM EDT
[#20]
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...yet are perfectly willing to accept that God came from nothing? Give me a break......

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The question of "Who created God?" presumes God came from somewhere within our frame of reference.

I don't believe in a created God.

We measure time by movement in space.  On a basic, primitive level there were the lunar and solar calendars.  In more modern times, the hands of a watch or the activity of isotopes in an atomic clock.    All of these things we relate to in space and time did not exist until God created them.

He existed before this universe we see was created.  That is part of His being eternal - pre-existant self existence.
8/24/2013 8:26:03 AM EDT
[#21]
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The question of "Who created God?" presumes God came from somewhere within our frame of reference.

I don't believe in a created God.

We measure time by movement in space.  On a basic, primitive level there were the lunar and solar calendars.  In more modern times, the hands of a watch or the activity of isotopes in an atomic clock.    All of these things we relate to in space and time did not exist until God created them.

He existed before this universe we see was created.  That is part of His being eternal - pre-existant self existence.
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...yet are perfectly willing to accept that God came from nothing? Give me a break......



The question of "Who created God?" presumes God came from somewhere within our frame of reference.

I don't believe in a created God.

We measure time by movement in space.  On a basic, primitive level there were the lunar and solar calendars.  In more modern times, the hands of a watch or the activity of isotopes in an atomic clock.    All of these things we relate to in space and time did not exist until God created them.

He existed before this universe we see was created.  That is part of His being eternal - pre-existant self existence.


Amen, our father in Heaven is outside of time, since He created it. Time, as we know it comes from His creation. He created the Heavens and the Earth, and we base time off of the rotations or these.
8/24/2013 6:44:06 PM EDT
[#22]
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The Book of Genesis is an obvious metaphor for an unscientific and mythological understanding of the beginning of the universe.
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It isn't at all obvious to me. Why do you insist that Genesis is a metaphor, rather than an accurate retelling of facts?
8/24/2013 6:45:41 PM EDT
[#23]
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I don't believe in a created God.
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I don't believe. Period.
8/25/2013 9:25:52 AM EDT
[#24]
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I don't believe. Period.
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I don't believe in a created God.

I don't believe. Period.


That won't make Him go away.  
8/25/2013 5:10:21 PM EDT
[#25]
Let us suppose for the moment that God literally created the earth in seven days, and in that time frame the universe went from nothingness to everything that it is now, with the full biodiversity that we have today. Let us suppose also, that there is irrefutable evidence that the earth is 4 billion years old, and that all life on earth evolved from a primordial soup of random amino acids.





For a Christian (or Jews/Muslims for that matter), we believe that God is an omnipotent entity, an entity that is all powerful and knows all things. Reading the Bible, we know that God has a tendency to test the faith of his creation on earth. Couldn't evidence of evolution be fabricated by God to sort those with weak faith from those with strong faith?





Of course such a God would have that power. And for this reason, all creationist vs evolution debates are pointless. They make people mad and accomplish nothing.

 
8/26/2013 8:18:52 AM EDT
[#26]
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Let us suppose for the moment that God literally created the earth in seven days, and in that time frame the universe went from nothingness to everything that it is now, with the full biodiversity that we have today. Let us suppose also, that there is irrefutable evidence that the earth is 4 billion years old, and that all life on earth evolved from a primordial soup of random amino acids.

For a Christian (or Jews/Muslims for that matter), we believe that God is an omnipotent entity, an entity that is all powerful and knows all things. Reading the Bible, we know that God has a tendency to test the faith of his creation on earth. Couldn't evidence of evolution be fabricated by God to sort those with weak faith from those with strong faith?

Of course such a God would have that power. And for this reason, all creationist vs evolution debates are pointless. They make people mad and accomplish nothing.  
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So, God created me in his own image, he created me with the personality/scientific aptitude that I have, so basically he created me to fail?????

That's illogical, I don't care who you are/what you believe.....
8/26/2013 8:19:34 AM EDT
[#27]
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That won't make Him go away.  
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I don't believe in a created God.

I don't believe. Period.


That won't make Him go away.  


And your belief in him doesn't make Him real....
8/26/2013 8:38:07 AM EDT
[#28]
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There are many folks who read Genesis literally.  I think it comes down to the difference in Biblical interpretation between Protestants and Catholics.  A Catholic, Orthodox, and some Protestants would be comfortable reading and interpreting the Bible in light of the interpretive traditions passed down from Judaism and from the Apostles and their successors in the Early Church.  Other Protestants, for various reason, prefer to read the Bible with little to no outside influence, and I think a total literal view is the "tidiest" in this situation.  

So pretty much, IMHO, young earth folks are reading the Bible in isolation and coming up with their own interpretation and then doubling down on it when modern science contradicts them.  



If you'd like to discuss this some more, maybe we can start another thread so this one doesn't get sidetracked.  However, here's the short answer.  It is the same situation as Genesis, where we read books of the Bible in light of their genre rather than applying some one-size-fits-all interpretive framework to every book in the Bible.

So for example, here are the verses in Leviticus that people often point out:

[div style='margin-left: 40px;']

Leviticus 18:22

English Standard Version (ESV)


22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

Leviticus 20:13

English Standard Version (ESV)


13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.


Proponents of the normalization of homosexuality will point out that there are also requirements in Leviticus that seem bizarre by today's standard.  Leviticus was written as a big list of laws given by God to Moses for the Jews to follow. If you read Lev 18-20, you will notice that pretty much all of the laws there cover morality we would recognize today, with some random stuff mixed in like not making clothes out of two different types of materials.  If there's both ceremonial stuff that doesn't apply today and moral stuff that does apply today, then someone could say that we can't know which is which.  For the sake of argument, let's say that this is true, we can't know if Leviticus condemns homosexuality or not.

Fortunately, we have instances in the New Testament epistles, which are generally pretty straightforward instructions to Christian Churches of the time.

In the very first Chapter of Paul's epistle to the Romans, we have this:

[div style='margin-left: 40px;']

Romans 1:26-27

English Standard Version (ESV)


26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.


Seems clear enough.  

Furthermore, we have this in 1 Corinthians:
[div style='margin-left: 40px;']

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

English Standard Version (ESV)


9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous[a][/sup] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,[sup][/sup][b][/sup] [sup]10 [/sup]nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [sup]11 [/sup]And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.


Again, homosexual acts seem to go in the "don't do that" category.

So even if the meaning and relevance of the Leviticus verses is questionable, the New Testament evidence, read in the context of its genre, should easily put that objection to rest.

That the Bible condemns homosexual acts is clear.  Accepting it and many other truths, on the other hand, isn't always easy.

I hope that makes sense.  I'm certainly no Bible scholar.    If you'd like to discuss it some more, start a thread on it and let me know.
   
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I wonder then why there are still so many Christians that attack, or flat out deny evolution?
There are many folks who read Genesis literally.  I think it comes down to the difference in Biblical interpretation between Protestants and Catholics.  A Catholic, Orthodox, and some Protestants would be comfortable reading and interpreting the Bible in light of the interpretive traditions passed down from Judaism and from the Apostles and their successors in the Early Church.  Other Protestants, for various reason, prefer to read the Bible with little to no outside influence, and I think a total literal view is the "tidiest" in this situation.  

So pretty much, IMHO, young earth folks are reading the Bible in isolation and coming up with their own interpretation and then doubling down on it when modern science contradicts them.  



Then, there is still my argument that this way of thinking about Genesis (which I like BTW) is not applied to the rest of the bible. Gay marriage for example (without starting an argument). Could/should we not look at Leviticus and come to the same conclusion?

If you'd like to discuss this some more, maybe we can start another thread so this one doesn't get sidetracked.  However, here's the short answer.  It is the same situation as Genesis, where we read books of the Bible in light of their genre rather than applying some one-size-fits-all interpretive framework to every book in the Bible.

So for example, here are the verses in Leviticus that people often point out:

[div style='margin-left: 40px;']

Leviticus 18:22

English Standard Version (ESV)


22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

Leviticus 20:13

English Standard Version (ESV)


13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.


Proponents of the normalization of homosexuality will point out that there are also requirements in Leviticus that seem bizarre by today's standard.  Leviticus was written as a big list of laws given by God to Moses for the Jews to follow. If you read Lev 18-20, you will notice that pretty much all of the laws there cover morality we would recognize today, with some random stuff mixed in like not making clothes out of two different types of materials.  If there's both ceremonial stuff that doesn't apply today and moral stuff that does apply today, then someone could say that we can't know which is which.  For the sake of argument, let's say that this is true, we can't know if Leviticus condemns homosexuality or not.

Fortunately, we have instances in the New Testament epistles, which are generally pretty straightforward instructions to Christian Churches of the time.

In the very first Chapter of Paul's epistle to the Romans, we have this:

[div style='margin-left: 40px;']

Romans 1:26-27

English Standard Version (ESV)


26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.


Seems clear enough.  

Furthermore, we have this in 1 Corinthians:
[div style='margin-left: 40px;']

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

English Standard Version (ESV)


9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous[a][/sup] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,[sup][/sup][b][/sup] [sup]10 [/sup]nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [sup]11 [/sup]And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.


Again, homosexual acts seem to go in the "don't do that" category.

So even if the meaning and relevance of the Leviticus verses is questionable, the New Testament evidence, read in the context of its genre, should easily put that objection to rest.

That the Bible condemns homosexual acts is clear.  Accepting it and many other truths, on the other hand, isn't always easy.

I hope that makes sense.  I'm certainly no Bible scholar.    If you'd like to discuss it some more, start a thread on it and let me know.
   


No, I don't want to start a new thread. If anything, I think your post brings up exactly what I have been saying.

Why aren't there people out picketing the greedy, drunkards, etc? People focus in on their preconceived beliefs....people will read Genesis as more of a metaphor, focus in on homosexuality, but then again not read too much into drinking alcohol.
8/26/2013 10:37:04 AM EDT
[#29]
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So, God created me in his own image, he created me with the personality/scientific aptitude that I have, so basically he created me to fail?????

That's illogical, I don't care who you are/what you believe.....
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Illogical, yes, but consistent with the story of Genesis. God created Adam and Eve to fail, so why not you?

God (if he exists) just enjoys messing with humans.
8/27/2013 5:19:52 PM EDT
[#30]
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Let us suppose for the moment that God literally created the earth in seven days, and in that time frame the universe went from nothingness to everything that it is now, with the full biodiversity that we have today. Let us suppose also, that there is irrefutable evidence that the earth is 4 billion years old, and that all life on earth evolved from a primordial soup of random amino acids.

For a Christian (or Jews/Muslims for that matter), we believe that God is an omnipotent entity, an entity that is all powerful and knows all things. Reading the Bible, we know that God has a tendency to test the faith of his creation on earth. Couldn't evidence of evolution be fabricated by God to sort those with weak faith from those with strong faith?

Of course such a God would have that power. And for this reason, all creationist vs evolution debates are pointless. They make people mad and accomplish nothing.  
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So do we have free will or not then?

Because it sounds like we are slaves to behaving the way this God of yours wants us to, or rather, the way that others many years ago assumed he wanted us to and they decided to write it down and goto war over it.

If God is omnipotent and omniscient, then he knows which souls will fail his test right? So what's the point? See it works both ways.

See I consider the threat of burning in hell for eternity as punishment and free will to be contradictions. That's like holding a gun to someone's head and forcing them to do what you want. Yeah they can defy you, but they will suffer your wrath, so what choice did they really have? Would you invite that person you blackmailed into living with you in paradise for eternity?

So what is more moral, to do good because it is common sense, and we all understand that if we treat others like crap then we will be treated similarly in return, and that leaves for a pretty crappy life.. or to do good because if we don't our creator will cast us into an eternal pit of misery?

Jihadis act in ways which they firmly believe is pleasing to Allah and they have been promised their own version of Heaven by killing Infidels. This should be a clue to anyone who follows religion on blind faith to question authority instead.
8/28/2013 2:49:15 AM EDT
[#31]
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And your belief in him doesn't make Him real....
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I don't believe in a created God.

I don't believe. Period.


That won't make Him go away.  


And your belief in him doesn't make Him real....


Which logically demonstrates He is not subject to our whims or preferences.  
8/28/2013 3:09:13 AM EDT
[#32]

8/28/2013 3:14:46 AM EDT
[#33]
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 I guess that settles it!
8/28/2013 3:15:03 AM EDT
[#34]



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It isn't at all obvious to me. Why do you insist that Genesis is a metaphor, rather than an accurate retelling of facts?
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The Book of Genesis is an obvious metaphor for an unscientific and mythological understanding of the beginning of the universe.




It isn't at all obvious to me. Why do you insist that Genesis is a metaphor, rather than an accurate retelling of facts?




Who was there to report it?  And if it was 'fact' as reported to people with a primitive frame of reference, how can it be accepted as truth - except by faith?  As an empirical question, it can't be anything but a metaphor.
 
8/28/2013 4:45:12 AM EDT
[#35]


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I guess that settles it!
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Volumes of modern science pointing in a singular direction v. 2000 year old mytholgy and folklore written by ancient tribesmen?



You bet it settles it.



Funny how the religious embrace science when they require medical treatment and benefit in inumerable ways from the myriad of contributions science and the scientific process has delivered to humanity.......but....challenge a 2000 year old book of mythology and look out!



Science then becomes a lot of hokus pokus gobbldy gook mumbo jumbo that is "suspect, unreliable and not to be trusted".



Interdasting, isn't it?
8/28/2013 5:11:27 AM EDT
[#36]
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Volumes of modern science pointing in a singular direction v. 2000 year old mytholgy and folklore written by ancient tribesmen?

You bet it settles it.

Funny how the religious embrace science when they require medical treatment and benefit in inumerable ways from the myriad of contributions science and the scientific process has delivered to humanity.......but....challenge a 2000 year old book of mythology and look out!

Science then becomes a lot of hokus pokus gobbldy gook mumbo jumbo that is "suspect, unreliable and not to be trusted".

Interdasting, isn't it?
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I guess that settles it!

Volumes of modern science pointing in a singular direction v. 2000 year old mytholgy and folklore written by ancient tribesmen?

You bet it settles it.

Funny how the religious embrace science when they require medical treatment and benefit in inumerable ways from the myriad of contributions science and the scientific process has delivered to humanity.......but....challenge a 2000 year old book of mythology and look out!

Science then becomes a lot of hokus pokus gobbldy gook mumbo jumbo that is "suspect, unreliable and not to be trusted".

Interdasting, isn't it?



You have an impressive amount of faith.
8/28/2013 5:33:20 AM EDT
[#37]


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You have an impressive amount of faith.
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Quoted:





Volumes of modern science pointing in a singular direction v. 2000 year old mytholgy and folklore written by ancient tribesmen?



You bet it settles it.



Funny how the religious embrace science when they require medical treatment and benefit in inumerable ways from the myriad of contributions science and the scientific process has delivered to humanity.......but....challenge a 2000 year old book of mythology and look out!



Science then becomes a lot of hokus pokus gobbldy gook mumbo jumbo that is "suspect, unreliable and not to be trusted".



Interdasting, isn't it?






You have an impressive amount of faith.


For someone who would intentionally bypass modern science across the globe for the past 175 years, from multiple disciplines and innumberable scientists, and all their collective evidence and studies, in favor of 2000 year old mythology and folklore written by ancient tribesmen who had absolutely no clue how the world around them worked on the most basic level, I'm affriad the preponderance of faith is yours.



Here's a hypothetical for you:



A loved one of yours gets cancer. Your wife, your child, someone very close to you. Would you seek treatment for them exclusively based on "medical" practices from Biblical times? Maybe prayer would be the only treatment you'd suggest? After all, these are the same people and the same book you credit with providing the answers for some of the most complex subjects known to mankind. The same complex subjects modern man, apparently, is still so confused about.



Or....would you take that loved one to a modern, scientific medical facility for treatment?



Call it a hunch, but I bet science gets the nod. Wonder why that is?
8/28/2013 11:53:56 AM EDT
[#38]
How long did it take for science to realize that The Bible was right when it said that the Earth is a sphere, and it hangs on nothing?
8/28/2013 11:58:09 AM EDT
[#39]

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You have an impressive amount of faith.
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Quoted:




Volumes of modern science pointing in a singular direction v. 2000 year old mytholgy and folklore written by ancient tribesmen?



You bet it settles it.



Funny how the religious embrace science when they require medical treatment and benefit in inumerable ways from the myriad of contributions science and the scientific process has delivered to humanity.......but....challenge a 2000 year old book of mythology and look out!



Science then becomes a lot of hokus pokus gobbldy gook mumbo jumbo that is "suspect, unreliable and not to be trusted".



Interdasting, isn't it?






You have an impressive amount of faith.
No faith needed to accept science.  That's the beauty part.



I don't have to pick one of the mythologies and pretend I know its correct.  Just follow the data no mater where it takes us.



Doing this we know evolution occurred, and common descent is a fact.



This isn't in doubt.



 
8/28/2013 1:44:01 PM EDT
[#40]
Oh, and this was mentioned in the article.
From her review, its nothing more than the same creationist nonsense that has been debunked decades ago.
       





Glad I didn't waste my time watching hackneyed crap by Ray "the Banana Handler" Comfort.
 
8/28/2013 4:10:31 PM EDT
[#41]
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How long did it take for science to realize that The Bible was right when it said that the Earth is a sphere, and it hangs on nothing?
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A quick google search reveals that humans figured the earth was round somewhere around 3rd century BC.
8/29/2013 4:58:42 AM EDT
[#42]






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How long did it take for science to realize that The Bible was right when it said that the Earth is a sphere, and it hangs on nothing?
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It was known the earth was a sphere long ago.  Not to mention "hangs on nothing" doesn't describe what the earth is doing.  The earthing isn't hanging anywhere.  Its whipping around in a circle.  Hang would imply that its stationary.  Thus, I don't think your passage proves anything.
Not to mention, a different passage claims the earth sits on pillars.  You can't pick the one that sounds to you most like what we know is really happening and pretend that the bible knew it while ignoring the one that we know s completely wrong.
And even if some things in the bible are correct (scientifically or historically), it doesn't mean that everything it says is correct.
For example, even if your claim above was true, it definitely took science awhile to figure out that the bible was wrong about other tropics such as:
1) Bats aren't birds.






2) You can't make multi-colored goats by breeding them in front of different colored things. (clear failure of understanding genetics)






3) The firmament doesn't exist. (clear failure of understanding the earth and its position in the universe)






4) There are no "waters" above the heavens. (see #3)






5) Stars cannot fall from the sky. (clear failure of understanding of what stars are and how far away they are.)






7) No global flood has ever occurred during which all animals on earth would be able to survive on a bot. (a failure of understanding how big the world was, how much water there is, and how many animals there are.)


8) Earth doesn't have foundations or pillars. (see #3)


9) It is not possible to go on a high mountain and see the entire earth.  (clear failure of understanding of the size and shape of the earth)
and I'm sure there are more.  The point is in the end, science did figure out that the bible is wrong about these topics, and thus your assertion in your post about the bible being correct about some scientific fact is irrelevant.



Oh, and by the way, Muslims try to do the exact same thing with the Koran, claiming that it "knew" things that people at the time didn't.  Though admittedly I'm not familiar enough with them to discuss them.
 
8/29/2013 7:34:27 AM EDT
[#43]
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Who was there to report it?
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The Book of Genesis is an obvious metaphor for an unscientific and mythological understanding of the beginning of the universe.

It isn't at all obvious to me. Why do you insist that Genesis is a metaphor, rather than an accurate retelling of facts?

Who was there to report it?

If God exists, he would've been there. And IIRC what I read in other threads, Moses wrote Genesis, relating what he was told by God.
And if it was 'fact' as reported to people with a primitive frame of reference, how can it be accepted as truth - except by faith?

With no way to confirm or refute what is in Genesis, I think it does require faith to accept it as being fact. However, that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't fact.
As an empirical question, it can't be anything but a metaphor.

I disagree. Unless you can prove the events in Genesis did not happen as described, it leaves open the possibility that the story is truth, not metaphor.
8/29/2013 7:45:03 AM EDT
[#44]


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I disagree. Unless you can prove the events in Genesis did not happen as described, it leaves open the possibility that the story is truth, not metaphor.
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<snip>


I disagree. Unless you can prove the events in Genesis did not happen as described, it leaves open the possibility that the story is truth, not metaphor.


Along your line of reasoning, then absolute equal validity must be extended to:



The stories/fables/folklore/mytholgy written about: Odin, Isis, Shiva, The Great Spirit, Zeus, Thor, Vishnu and thousands of other gods whose "words" have no more or less validitiy and whose texts are also accepted by faith.



Countless stories/texts about "gods word" permiate world history, and on the basis of your reasoning above, they ALL must be viewed as potentially factual and not simply metephors.....since the "evidence" is relegated to written text from ancient people exclusively....as it is in Genesis and The Bible.
8/29/2013 8:21:29 AM EDT
[#45]


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If God exists, he would've been there. And IIRC what I read in other threads, Moses wrote Genesis, relating what he was told by God.
With no way to confirm or refute what is in Genesis, I think it does require faith to accept it as being fact. However, that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't fact.
I disagree. Unless you can prove the events in Genesis did not happen as described, it leaves open the possibility that the story is truth, not metaphor.
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Quoted:




Quoted:






It isn't at all obvious to me. Why do you insist that Genesis is a metaphor, rather than an accurate retelling of facts?



Who was there to report it?



If God exists, he would've been there. And IIRC what I read in other threads, Moses wrote Genesis, relating what he was told by God.




And if it was 'fact' as reported to people with a primitive frame of reference, how can it be accepted as truth - except by faith?



With no way to confirm or refute what is in Genesis, I think it does require faith to accept it as being fact. However, that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't fact.




As an empirical question, it can't be anything but a metaphor.



I disagree. Unless you can prove the events in Genesis did not happen as described, it leaves open the possibility that the story is truth, not metaphor.
What, you mean like the flood story that we know is physically impossible and didn't happen?





Or the fact that we know the genesis creation account is not literally how it happened?
 
 
8/29/2013 10:34:17 AM EDT
[#46]
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Or the fact that we know the genesis creation account is not literally how it happened?
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How do we know that?
8/29/2013 11:17:07 AM EDT
[#47]


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How do we know that?
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Or the fact that we know the genesis creation account is not literally how it happened?


How do we know that?




Along your line of reasoning, absolute equal validity must be extended to ALL creation stories/myths and not just the Biblical account



The stories/fables/folklore/mytholgy written about: Odin, Isis, Shiva, The Great Spirit, Zeus, Thor, Vishnu and thousands of other gods whose "words" have no more or less validitiy and whose texts are also accepted by faith.



Countless stories/texts about "gods word" and "creation" permiate world history, and on the basis of your reasoning above, they ALL must be viewed as potentially factual and not simply metephors.....since the "evidence" is relegated to written text from ancient people exclusively....as it is in Genesis and The Bible.
8/29/2013 11:30:20 AM EDT
[#48]




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How do we know that?
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Or the fact that we know the genesis creation account is not literally how it happened?





How do we know that?
Because of the results of many independent fields of science which have well documented evidence demonstrating that the universe as we see it today didn't arise magically in seven literal days.



Genesis not being literal doesn't invalidate god, or Christianity, or even the bible.  All it says is that genesis isn't a literal history of the world.  The only people who insist otherwise are certain groups of Christians.
Someone once said: scientific understanding doesn't eliminate god, but it does put limitations on when he could have created the universe and and how he could have did it.
 
8/29/2013 11:51:26 AM EDT
[#49]
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Because of the results of many independent fields of science which have well documented evidence demonstrating that the universe as we see it today didn't arise magically in seven literal days.

Genesis not being literal doesn't invalidate god, or Christianity, or even the bible.  All it says is that genesis isn't a literal history of the world.
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Or the fact that we know the genesis creation account is not literally how it happened?

How do we know that?
Because of the results of many independent fields of science which have well documented evidence demonstrating that the universe as we see it today didn't arise magically in seven literal days.

Genesis not being literal doesn't invalidate god, or Christianity, or even the bible.  All it says is that genesis isn't a literal history of the world.

If it isn't a literal history of the world, then -- metaphor or not -- it must be false. If it is false, then it does invalidate at least that part of the Bible, and casts doubt on the remainder.
8/29/2013 12:42:55 PM EDT
[#50]


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If it isn't a literal history of the world, then -- metaphor or not -- it must be false. If it is false, then it does invalidate at least that part of the Bible, and casts doubt on the remainder.
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Or the fact that we know the genesis creation account is not literally how it happened?


How do we know that?
Because of the results of many independent fields of science which have well documented evidence demonstrating that the universe as we see it today didn't arise magically in seven literal days.



Genesis not being literal doesn't invalidate god, or Christianity, or even the bible. All it says is that genesis isn't a literal history of the world.


If it isn't a literal history of the world, then -- metaphor or not -- it must be false. If it is false, then it does invalidate at least that part of the Bible, and casts doubt on the remainder.


Bingo.
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