Posted: 10/26/2012 2:26:07 PM EDT
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Psalm 139:13 (ESV) 13 For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. Is there an explanation why God would "knit together" some babies in such a way as to be born conjoined to their twins? Or born without arms or legs, or even without a brain? |
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Not an easy to answer question but I can say that when you see children dying from birth defect it does cause one to raise a few questions to God. There is a level of suffering and death around the globe that Americans are inoculated against because of our advanced medical system but our medical system can’t fix the primary problem.. .
We have to remember that suffering is the result of sin and sin is the violation of God’s purpose. God did not create suffering and death as a global joke but they are the results of humanity rebelling against him and rejecting his purpose for our lives. We don’t like God plan for anything in the long run. Take sexuality for example. God says one man one women together in a lifetime commitment raising children who are provided for and loved. How many ways do we violate that….what are the effect we see on the family, culture, individuals? While our medical system inoculates Americans from starving and broken babies we are not inoculated from broken homes and broken children right down the street. We question God when we see the effects of sin (often horrifying) even while we continue in sinful lifestyles which God sees as even more horrifying. God purpose was not suffering and dying children…. he does not find pleasure in deformed and suffering babies. While God is the creator of life… all humanity still falls under the curse of sin from the yet unborn to the elderly and infirm. God does not step in and supernaturally insure that every child lives in paradise until the age of five…but he does step in and offer something even better. Sin does more than cause deformed babies…sin causes separation from God. The temporal effects of sin are physical death (in various tragic ways that often include babies) but the eternal effect of sin is spiritual death or separation from God. We see broken babies and we are troubled….God sees broken souls and is even more troubled. The Bible tells us that Jesus Christ has come to offer a cure for the worst medical condition that effects us all…sin. The root of every deformity and death every rape and murder every broken home and broken child is sin. Jesus tells us that He came that we might have new life. The greatest effect of the curse has been lifted …separation from our Creator. God himself has taken upon himself the penalty of our sin. Through his death on the Cross and by his resurrection from that death He has beaten the power of death. He has done something for broken humanity of far more value than simply fixing our broken babies he has fixed our broken souls. Jesus message is repent of sin (confess) and in faith believe on Me and I will give you life everlasting. (Read the Gospels) So while I do cry when I hold the child dying from HIV or the toddler with a beautiful face but twisted and deformed limbs I can thank God through Jesus Christ that a life of suffering will not be the end for them. The God who has a purpose for their life who breathed into their conception and caused them to become a living soul has overcome suffering and death through His own suffering and death on the Cross. As a side not the Bible has many cases of men who question God in the face of tragedy it is not the questions that are the problem it is the lake of trusting in faith that He is the answer. There is no other answer from suffering children. Darwin and most Global religions label them as mistakes or the recipients of karma with no purpose and often not even worthy of life....hopelessness in its very form. Jesus message is that they have value and it is of such great importance that he became broken so that the broken might have life and have life more abundantly. Jesus is indeed hope to the most hopeless! The broken made whole |
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God purpose was not suffering and dying children…. he does not find pleasure in deformed and suffering babies. Then why does he cause deformed babies? According to the scripture you quoted, God "knits" us together in the womb. That means he is intentionally making these deformities. |
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In the same vein history points out that most of the very disciples of Jesus experienced death from the hands of men.
Men who had walked with Jesus and lived for the sole purpose of telling pagan nations about his message were killed for it. Why would they give up everything and live lives of poverty…lives that ended in their often painful torture and death? They served a Man who claimed to be One with God.. .Creator of the world….who healed the sick and demonstrated his authority over physical death. … and they don’t question this even in the face of their own suffering and death. Is it that they didn’t believe Jesus had the power over suffering and death… or that Jesus had the power over something of far more importance. 36As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, “Peace to you!” 37But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit. 38And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. Luke 24 We demand that God make everything “right” that he operate under our standard of justice or right and wrong. We demand that every life start in perfectly formed temporal bliss forgetting that every life will still end with physical and spiritual death. We see broken babies who’s lives end in physical death and ask God why? God sees broken lives and souls which end in physical and spiritual death and says “This is my body which is broken for you”…”reach out and believe”…”I have come that you might have life” Even while living in sin and rebellion we demand that God make everything right during the temporary. God sees humanities sin and rebellion and makes everything right for eternity. |
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God does have a plan for this. Sometimes we don't understand what that always is.
I taught special education for years and over 1/2 was with severely and profoundly disabled people. I was always shocked by the stereo types placed on these people.. I wish I had a dime for every time I heard .. "they will never" or or what will their quality of life be? Progress was always slow and every single goal or step forward redefined the stereo type to "yes they can". Every last one of these people are TEACHERS. Do you ever appreciate what you have a little more if you watch them struggle? Do you ever look at what they CAN do or are doing as opposed to the limits we place on them in what we think they can't? They aren't less of a person. God is brilliant. He lets us know how richly blessed we are. They aren't imperfect at all. We are. God made them most wonderfully and miraculously. We can't possibly appreciate God brilliance if we were all made the same. |
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I taught special education for years and over 1/2 was with severely and profoundly disabled people. I was always shocked by the stereo types placed on these people.. I wish I had a dime for every time I heard .. "they will never" or or what will their quality of life be? Progress was always slow and every single goal or step forward redefined the stereo type to "yes they can". Yes, they can do more than many people think. I remember seeing video of a woman who was born without arms; she learned how to use her feet to perform tasks for which the rest of us use our hands. Truly amazing. However, you completely miss my point. Do you ever appreciate what you have a little more if you watch them struggle?
Perhaps. But I'd much rather they had been born whole. The idea that some people are malformed so the rest of us will appreciate what we have a little more, I find terribly sick and twisted. |
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We live in a fallen world, and sometimes things happen that are bad, appear bad, or that we don't understand.
I don't believe God "makes" deformed children. Sometimes the intricate processes of reproduction and cellular division don't work properly. God is certainly aware of those things, but I don't think he actively causes them to happen. He may intervene on occasion, but most times He likely does not. He set the process in motion millenia ago, and it is up to us as to how we respond to the outcomes. |
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I don't believe God "makes" deformed children. Sometimes the intricate processes of reproduction and cellular division don't work properly. God is certainly aware of those things, but I don't think he actively causes them to happen. Unfortunately, your belief seems contrary to the scripture quoted in the OP. I don't see any way to read that without concluding that God is actively causing it. Do you? |
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Psalm 139 is a poem written by David. I submit it is not to be taken literally as a study in genetics and embryology. The quoted translation is not the only one extant. Other translations give different wording. For example, the KJV states, "For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb." What here is translated as "possessed my reins" in Hebrew literally is "created my inward parts." I see this as a recognition of God as Creator, but not as an inflictor of deformities. |
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Psalm 139 is a poem written by David. I submit it is not to be taken literally as a study in genetics and embryology. I would counter that the Bible must be taken literally, otherwise it can be "interpreted" to mean anything. The quoted translation is not the only one extant. Other translations give different wording. For example, the KJV states, "For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb." What here is translated as "possessed my reins" in Hebrew literally is "created my inward parts." I see this as a recognition of God as Creator, but not as an inflictor of deformities.
And I see "created my inward parts" as doing the actual construction on the individual in the womb, not just initially creating the species untold centuries ago. |
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Quoted: Quoted: I would counter that the Bible must be taken literally, otherwise it can be "interpreted" to mean anything. Scratch an atheist, find a fundamentalist.  Or at least an atheist, trying to disprove the existence of God using fundamentalist interpretation of scripture. So if God's knitting, where are His needles and why don't we see them? How literal do you wish to get? |
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I would counter that the Bible must be taken literally, otherwise it can be "interpreted" to mean anything. Scratch an atheist, find a fundamentalist. Hardly. I'm just saying that if accounts in the Bible are supposed to be fact, then it should be read as meaning what it says. And I wouldn't classify myself as an atheist. It's true I doubt the Christian God exists –– at least I fervently hope he doesn't, considering his cited record of vindictive, vengeful behavior against lesser beings –– but I think it is quite possible there is (or was) a Creator. |
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I would counter that the Bible must be taken literally, otherwise it can be "interpreted" to mean anything. Scratch an atheist, find a fundamentalist. Or at least an atheist, trying to disprove the existence of God using fundamentalist interpretation of scripture. If that's what you think this thread is about, then you clearly didn't understand anything I wrote. So if God's knitting, where are His needles and why don't we see them? How literal do you wish to get?
Well, not that literal. That's why I put "knitting" in quotes. I realize the author was using terminology familiar to him. I wouldn't expect anyone back then knew about genetic manipulation and such. |
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I would counter that the Bible must be taken literally, otherwise it can be "interpreted" to mean anything. Scratch an atheist, find a fundamentalist. Or at least an atheist, trying to disprove the existence of God using fundamentalist interpretation of scripture. If that's what you think this thread is about, then you clearly didn't understand anything I wrote. So if God's knitting, where are His needles and why don't we see them? How literal do you wish to get?
Well, not that literal. That's why I put "knitting" in quotes. I realize the author was using terminology familiar to him. I wouldn't expect anyone back then knew about genetic manipulation and such. You have just defeated your own argument. Take it literally, but not THAT literally. Fail. |
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I would counter that the Bible must be taken literally, otherwise it can be "interpreted" to mean anything. Scratch an atheist, find a fundamentalist. Hardly. I'm just saying that if accounts in the Bible are supposed to be fact, then it should be read as meaning what it says. And I wouldn't classify myself as an atheist. It's true I doubt the Christian God exists –– at least I fervently hope he doesn't, considering his cited record of vindictive, vengeful behavior against lesser beings –– but I think it is quite possible there is (or was) a Creator. Of course I didn't mean you were actually a fundamentalist. There you go with your literalism again.  Just don't fall in to the illusion that by arguing with fundamentalism you're arguing against all of Christianity. Fundamentalism is a relatively obscure and recent theology.
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Psalm 139:13 (ESV) 13 For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. Is there an explanation why God would "knit together" some babies in such a way as to be born conjoined to their twins? Or born without arms or legs, or even without a brain? This is a classic question. It's a variation of the basic question, why do bad things happen? When it's a challenge to the Christian faith, trying to prove that God doesn't exist, it's usually phrased like this: "If God is truly omniscient (all-knowing) and omnipotent (all-powerful) and loving, how could he allow suffering and evil?" Here is a classic answer. God exists. Jesus said he does, and he rose from the dead to show that he could be trusted to tell the truth. God is all-knowing. That trustworthy Jesus said so. And since God knows everything, he is smarter than we are. So he may do or say things that are perfectly right, but we don't understand them, because we're not as smart. We have that experience every day with people who are smarter than we are. God is all-powerful. In philosophical terms, all-powerful means that he can do whatever he wants. He can always put his will into action. God is loving. God showed his love for all people by sending a Savior (John 3:16). Does God allow evil to occur? That depends on how you define evil. Sometimes what seems bad or evil to one person seems good to another person. But let's grant that God does allow evil to occur. It's only temporary. Death intervenes. Since God is smarter, perhaps that temporary evil actually turns out to be for some good in the end. For example, the Bible tells the story of a man whose brothers sold him into slavery. That was evil. But it turned out for good. The man himself said so (Genesis 50:20). Since God is smarter than I am, I trust that when he allows evil or suffering in my life, it will work out for my good (Romans 8:28). Since he's loving, I trust that everything really will work out for the best in my life. And since he's all-powerful, I can ask him to get rid of the evil, and trust that if that's what he wants at that time, he can and he will (Matthew 7:7). |
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God exists. Jesus said he does, and he rose from the dead to show that he could be trusted to tell the truth. Better back up, pardner. What proof is there that Jesus rose from the dead? God is loving. God showed his love for all people by sending a Savior (John 3:16).
Riiiiight. Does a loving God condemn untold billions of people to a life of pain and suffering, for a "sin" in which they had no part? Does God allow evil to occur? That depends on how you define evil. Sometimes what seems bad or evil to one person seems good to another person.
Isn't that called moral relativism, something to which most Christians object? Since God is smarter than I am, I trust that when he allows evil or suffering in my life, it will work out for my good (Romans 8:28). Since he's loving, I trust that everything really will work out for the best in my life. And since he's all-powerful, I can ask him to get rid of the evil, and trust that if that's what he wants at that time, he can and he will (Matthew 7:7).
Why would you ask him to get rid of an evil that he in his infinite wisdom and love has bestowed upon you? |
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I've come to the conclusion that the only way to justify the Christian religion in modern world is to work under the assumption that we live in a post-apocalypse world. I was raised Christian and did a good bit of self searching and Bible reading before deciding to diverge from the church, and at that time the conclusion I came to, is the one i posted above. If Christianity is correct, then the rapture has occurred and we are living in the apocalypse. If it's not, then babies are born deformed because nature happens and natural selection, mutations, etc can be a bitch sometimes. |
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God exists. Jesus said he does, and he rose from the dead to show that he could be trusted to tell the truth. Better back up, pardner. What proof is there that Jesus rose from the dead? Hundreds of eye witnesses, some of whom recorded it. God is loving. God showed his love for all people by sending a Savior (John 3:16).
Riiiiight. Does a loving God condemn untold billions of people to a life of pain and suffering, for a "sin" in which they had no part? God certainly could prevent all bad and evil from taking place in this world. And more often than we may realize it, he does precisely that, frustrating the evil plans and purposes of those who hate him and his people (read Psalm 2 where God laughs at the rebellious plans of the kings of the earth!). At times when God does permit man's evil, what God is doing is using one sinner as a tool of his justice to punish another sinner. Think of how he used the sinful nation of Babylon to punish the sinful nation of Judah. In turn, Persia conquered Babylon, and then Greece conquered Persia, etc. But it would go against clear Scripture to say God causes evil. God is nothing but pure goodness (Psalm 118:1), and nothing comes down from heaven but good and perfect gifts (James 1:17). Does God allow evil to occur? That depends on how you define evil. Sometimes what seems bad or evil to one person seems good to another person.
Isn't that called moral relativism, something to which most Christians object? No. I said "seems". It's his world, not mine. I don't have the big picture. This brings up an important point; there is much about God that He hasn't revealed to us about Him. Christians are not perfect, and we frequently succumb to the temptation of trying to fill in the gaps of what we DON'T know. This is where we usually screw up. When we speculate instead of trusting in what we know (or don't know) we're frequently wrong. Sometimes, usually, always, we're better off just trusting and saying, "I don't know. He doesn't say.". Since God is smarter than I am, I trust that when he allows evil or suffering in my life, it will work out for my good (Romans 8:28). Since he's loving, I trust that everything really will work out for the best in my life. And since he's all-powerful, I can ask him to get rid of the evil, and trust that if that's what he wants at that time, he can and he will (Matthew 7:7).
Why would you ask him to get rid of an evil that he in his infinite wisdom and love has bestowed upon you? That shows my faith in Him. He tells me to ask. Because I do trust Him, I ask. He answers prayer. Sometimes (frequently) the answer is not what I want to hear. Sometimes though, I'm helped to understand what's going on better. The fault is mine, not His. What we're doing here is discussing faith. Faith is not always logical. Sitting down and listening about God and what He did/does makes no sense at all without faith. But I believe we're trying to grasp the concept of God, the perfect, with an imperfect mind. And, unless His spirit is within you, you can't have faith. So where does faith come from? Faith comes from hearing the Word, something you are free to reject. |
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God exists. Jesus said he does, and he rose from the dead to show that he could be trusted to tell the truth. Better back up, pardner. What proof is there that Jesus rose from the dead? Hundreds of eye witnesses, some of whom recorded it. Uh, that is testimony, not proof. And eyewitness testimony is often untrustworthy. But it would go against clear Scripture to say God causes evil. God is nothing but pure goodness (Psalm 118:1), and nothing comes down from heaven but good and perfect gifts (James 1:17).
Is not God the creator of everything, including evil? |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: God exists. Jesus said he does, and he rose from the dead to show that he could be trusted to tell the truth. Better back up, pardner. What proof is there that Jesus rose from the dead? Hundreds of eye witnesses, some of whom recorded it. Uh, that is testimony, not proof. And eyewitness testimony is often untrustworthy. But it would go against clear Scripture to say God causes evil. God is nothing but pure goodness (Psalm 118:1), and nothing comes down from heaven but good and perfect gifts (James 1:17). Is not God the creator of everything, including evil? There is for some an understanding that evil doesn't actually exist as a tangible in and of itself, but rather because of the absence of good. Just as darkness is there only because of the absence of light, evil "exists" only because there is an absence of good. |
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David's Psalm never mentioned whether the 'knitting' was always what 'we' would consider perfect.
13 For you created my inmost being;(Q) you knit me together(R) in my mother’s womb.(S) Just that God knew him before his birth and that He knew him completely. Furthermore; I don't believe anyone would be too off base to think that this is a poem and that poems often try to make a point in a more beautiful, poignant way, and that David is trying to convey how closely God knows him and how much he wants to know God more fully. Another question: What billions are suffering/going to suffer? You mentioned that earlier. Also: I thinks it unfair/unclassy of you to posit that the poster who found love and inspiration in the lives of those with 'defects" to be 'twisted'. In and outside of Christianity, how many people would tell you they find themselves through 'bad' circumstances, pain, and suffering? |
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David's Psalm never mentioned whether the 'knitting' was always what 'we' would consider perfect. Obviously, it is often much less than perfect. What billions are suffering/going to suffer? You mentioned that earlier.
All the people who ever lived in the past, are living now, and will live in the future. I thinks it unfair/unclassy of you to posit that the poster who found love and inspiration in the lives of those with 'defects" to be 'twisted'.
I calls it the way I see it. But, I was not referring to the fact that he found love and inspiration in such individuals. I find them inspiring, too. I was talking about his notion that God intentionally makes some babies malformed so the rest of us will better appreciate our lot in life: "[Those with birth defects] aren't imperfect at all. We are. God made them most wonderfully and miraculously. We can't possibly appreciate God brilliance if we were all made the same." In and outside of Christianity, how many people would tell you they find themselves through 'bad' circumstances, pain, and suffering?
Not relevant to the topic. |
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What about Church sanctioned murders, the Cathars? the Spanish Inquisition, witch burnings? and on and on Anyone that's sanctioned a murder is most likely not a Christian. Or wasn't at the time. Somehow the "turn the other cheek" and "do unto others" commandments of Jesus kind of fly out the window when you're involved in something like that. |
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David's Psalm never mentioned whether the 'knitting' was always what 'we' would consider perfect. Obviously, it is often much less than perfect. What billions are suffering/going to suffer? You mentioned that earlier.
All the people who ever lived in the past, are living now, and will live in the future. I thinks it unfair/unclassy of you to posit that the poster who found love and inspiration in the lives of those with 'defects" to be 'twisted'.
I calls it the way I see it. But, I was not referring to the fact that he found love and inspiration in such individuals. I find them inspiring, too. I was talking about his notion that God intentionally makes some babies malformed so the rest of us will better appreciate our lot in life: "[Those with birth defects] aren't imperfect at all. We are. God made them most wonderfully and miraculously. We can't possibly appreciate God brilliance if we were all made the same." In and outside of Christianity, how many people would tell you they find themselves through 'bad' circumstances, pain, and suffering?
Not relevant to the topic. So, basically; you wanted to troll this part of the forum, dismiss any positive responses and continue to think the way that you did prior to posting your question. |
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Well the pope said do it, they murdered many people that did not believe through them.....is it ok with you? What would Jesus say? No; I put no power in the Pope nor do I see in Scripture that God or Jesus did. What part of "turn the other cheek" is hard to understand? Many of the "Apostolic Fathers" went to evangelize to the Romans and others and were killed for it. They understood the consequences and trudged on regardless. They never raised a sword or attempted to bring the Kingdom of Heaven with a sword. Long story short; I put no stock in the Roman Catholic Church's way of doing things. I put no stock in anyone that calls themselves a Christian and murders. Self defense is one thing, murder is quite another. |
| I love these threads. This conversation needs to be had over coffee not a chat room, just due to complexity. As for the pope killing people I am a descendant of French Huguenots. Long story short the Catholics killed more of them than the first 300 years of roman persecution. My answer to it is a great ship is turned by a very small rudder. Something has to be the foundation. You pick it, pope or bible. I went with the side that didn't kill people for translating the bible into the common languages so the population could read it for themselves. And my family history does make me biased in case you couldn't tell. |
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David's Psalm never mentioned whether the 'knitting' was always what 'we' would consider perfect. Obviously, it is often much less than perfect. What billions are suffering/going to suffer? You mentioned that earlier.
All the people who ever lived in the past, are living now, and will live in the future. I thinks it unfair/unclassy of you to posit that the poster who found love and inspiration in the lives of those with 'defects" to be 'twisted'.
I calls it the way I see it. But, I was not referring to the fact that he found love and inspiration in such individuals. I find them inspiring, too. I was talking about his notion that God intentionally makes some babies malformed so the rest of us will better appreciate our lot in life: "[Those with birth defects] aren't imperfect at all. We are. God made them most wonderfully and miraculously. We can't possibly appreciate God brilliance if we were all made the same." In and outside of Christianity, how many people would tell you they find themselves through 'bad' circumstances, pain, and suffering?
Not relevant to the topic. So, basically; you wanted to troll this part of the forum, dismiss any positive responses and continue to think the way that you did prior to posting your question. No, basically I dismiss rationalizations and off-topic responses. That we are all different argues for natural selection, not God's "brilliant" design. If we were all made the same –– equal in all ways physically and mentally –– that would be brilliant creation. |
| It's not bashing,and I didn't mean it that. Simply the facts. Someone or something has to be the standard of right and wrong. All others are judged by that standard. Mine is the bible. Others say Buda or Mohamed. And I should add each is entitled to there own. We got a long way from birth defects, so I will shut up now. |
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David's Psalm never mentioned whether the 'knitting' was always what 'we' would consider perfect. Obviously, it is often much less than perfect. What billions are suffering/going to suffer? You mentioned that earlier.
All the people who ever lived in the past, are living now, and will live in the future. I thinks it unfair/unclassy of you to posit that the poster who found love and inspiration in the lives of those with 'defects" to be 'twisted'.
I calls it the way I see it. But, I was not referring to the fact that he found love and inspiration in such individuals. I find them inspiring, too. I was talking about his notion that God intentionally makes some babies malformed so the rest of us will better appreciate our lot in life: "[Those with birth defects] aren't imperfect at all. We are. God made them most wonderfully and miraculously. We can't possibly appreciate God brilliance if we were all made the same." In and outside of Christianity, how many people would tell you they find themselves through 'bad' circumstances, pain, and suffering?
Not relevant to the topic. So, basically; you wanted to troll this part of the forum, dismiss any positive responses and continue to think the way that you did prior to posting your question. No, basically I dismiss rationalizations and off-topic responses. That we are all different argues for natural selection, not God's "brilliant" design. If we were all made the same –– equal in all ways physically and mentally –– that would be brilliant creation. Profound! |
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I taught special education for years and over 1/2 was with severely and profoundly disabled people. I was always shocked by the stereo types placed on these people.. I wish I had a dime for every time I heard .. "they will never" or or what will their quality of life be? Progress was always slow and every single goal or step forward redefined the stereo type to "yes they can". Yes, they can do more than many people think. I remember seeing video of a woman who was born without arms; she learned how to use her feet to perform tasks for which the rest of us use our hands. Truly amazing. However, you completely miss my point. Do you ever appreciate what you have a little more if you watch them struggle?
Perhaps. But I'd much rather they had been born whole. The idea that some people are malformed so the rest of us will appreciate what we have a little more, I find terribly sick and twisted. My son has challenges. What do you think I would give for him to not have what he has???? Strange: Sick and twisted is how people describe my son who has Tourettes. He looks normal. He is articulate and sarcastic and massively talented so people expect him to be brilliant in the classroom. He has been called lazy unmotivated corrupt worthless NOT THE KIND OF STUDENT WE WANT HERE... . Other parents don't want him around their kids because of his cussing and the kinds of things that come out of his mouth. If I knew nothing about Tourettes I wouldn't want it around my kids either. I completely understand but I also know this kids heart. I see the good he does. I know when he is stressed what happens. I know how people perceive him and me as a parent because they THINK I permit my kid to talk like he does. I know when he is pushing it or when he is using it to be sophomoric. He gets punished for that. Every single school year I start over with teachers who in the first semester don't know he has Touretttes because they didn't read the bio in the IEP. Every year some teacher tells me what a crappy parent I am. Every year I hear what a piece of crap my kid is. Now .. his older sister is LOVED by the school and they can't believe the two are related. So I only get to be 1/2 a good parent and I completely fail in their opinion with my son. To top that off he can be a real brat and is going through all the things 15 year old kids do. He is isolated because of what he has so he does stupid things to fit in with kids whose parents don't care much about them. They find trouble. He gets punished and I expect him to not make the stupid choice again. Not a day goes by that I don't beg God for his life to be normal. I gave up on praying that people will stop being cruel. I pray he doesn't turn to drugs and alcohol or make stupid choices. He has cost me friendships and I have been isolated as well being vocal about how people treat him. God has been around a lot longer than I. The ONLY solace I find in any of this is knowing God has a perfect plan. My job as his mom is to make sure my son knows where to find perfection and it is not in this world. Do you think I would PICK this life for my kid? Do you think any parent would??? The sick and twisted part is people who don't take the time to look past the obvious and judge. They are the ones who miss out on seeing how truly complete people can be no matter what hand is dealt them. When people figure out what sets his tics and cussing off, when they give him a chance to be who he is around them he wins them over and they walk away with some knowledge they didn't have before. He becomes their teacher paving the way for a little more tolerance for some other kid who may have Tourettes. Getting him an education is a daily battle and that means I have to put him out there and watch people be horrendous to him. He makes good on what has been given him the best he can. Others benefit from it. That is not sick. |
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Do you ever appreciate what you have a little more if you watch them struggle? Perhaps. But I'd much rather they had been born whole. The idea that some people are malformed so the rest of us will appreciate what we have a little more, I find terribly sick and twisted. My son has challenges. What do you think I would give for him to not have what he has???? Strange: Sick and twisted is how people describe my son who has Tourettes. Not a day goes by that I don't beg God for his life to be normal. God has been around a lot longer than I. The ONLY solace I find in any of this is knowing God has a perfect plan. My job as his mom is to make sure my son knows where to find perfection and it is not in this world. Do you think I would PICK this life for my kid? Do you think any parent would??? Absolutely not. No sane, loving parent would. And I find it inconceiveable that a sane, loving God would pick that life for your son, perfect plan or not. |
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I am ignoring all the side crap that has occurred and going for the original question.
Psalms is poetry praising God written by a man. There is allegory and synonyms (familiar things that are similar that create a picture) but were were not actually knitted together in the womb. Your arguments have been following a theme here pertaining to Satan's proposal to God - literally " I will save them all!" You can't. If I were a heavenly being who created people to follow me, I would want them willing and obedient. Forcing someone to do something never works. Having to drag them into Heaven would just make for un-happiness and despair.They would be insufferable. So no, they must have free will and willingly chose to follow me back to Heaven. We are different. But, our genetic makeup is so very similar. I believe we ARE made in God's image. There is variation but I believe yes he actually has hands, feet, eyes, hair, all of that. Remember, He made Adam first and then formed Eve from his rib so that he would have a companion BY AND OF HIS SIDE. That implies God may very well be male. I can't say for sure but I really feel that. Children are not mentioned until after leaving the Garden of Eden, where because of her transgression, Eve was to bear children and have pain. This is both physical and emotional. The variation I believe comes from this free will. All life has free will in some form and exercises this all the time in creating offspring and the desire to survive. Move a plant around indoors and you will find it always will move and lean toward the light. Sometimes, there are accidents. These accidents are sometimes genetic where something is not complete or good ones like wings on bats. Many genetic defects occur from the environment that the mother is in, pollution, diet, health, ancestry. Tobacco and alcohol have played a big part in this in the past and unfortunately this can be passed on to the next generation. Or, to quote, "The sins of the father are passed to the children." I don't mean actual sins here but they could be. I do not believe that conjoined twins is a problem or a mistake. They always are very close to each other and share very much more than some of their body. I know how it happens in the science realm but it still amazes me it happens. Does God actually have a hand in this? I can't say. I don't think it is direct usually. This is hard for some to understand. based on my years of reading and studying scripture, as well as observing people, I believe that what we need to do is stop lamenting the birth defects in children. If we are to come here and learn and chose to return to our Father in Heaven, then being born is the first step. If our life is short then even better. I am not advocating killing anyone- I am saying, if our goal is to be born here, then return to our Father in Heaven then we are fulfilling the goal for us by God. I believe children are innocent of those things that lead us astray. They are held blameless. My Dad is slowly dying. He and I chatted about it. I asked him, "Do you actually believe what you are taught in the bible?" "What do you mean?" "I know you are worried about dying but do you actually believe there is a Heaven?" "Yes." "Then what is the problem?" "Well, I will be apart from your Mom." "In the whole of eternity, what is twenty years? a hundred years? Would you notice?" "I think not." Would your body be restored and no longer corruptible?" "Yes" "I am sorry Dad, but I see no downside to this." "I don't know." "Then you have doubts?" "No" "Then you are uncertain about doing something new. Don't worry about it. Wait for me." I do not believe God has an actual hand in creating birth defects. I believe though, that we have a hand in some of it. I love all children and think they are important no matter what their lot in life. If you are angry about God being responsible for this, then maybe you should spend time helping in a special needs care facility for those that have to work. You will see something different than your angry post. |
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Quoted:
I am ignoring all the side crap that has occurred and going for the original question. Psalms is poetry praising God written by a man. There is allegory and synonyms (familiar things that are similar that create a picture) but were were not actually knitted together in the womb. We're not? Where do you think the "knitting" occurs, if not in the womb? Your arguments have been following a theme here pertaining to Satan's proposal to God - literally
" I will save them all!" You can't. No, I can't. But an omnipotent God should be able to. If I were a heavenly being who created people to follow me, I would want them willing and obedient.
I cannot fathom why a perfect, infinite being would possibly want to be followed by imperfect, finite beings. But, if willing obedience was truly the goal, then God should've just created dog and called that good enough. I do not believe God has an actual hand in creating birth defects. I believe though, that we have a hand in some of it. I love all children and think they are important no matter what their lot in life. If you are angry about God being responsible for this, then maybe you should spend time helping in a special needs care facility for those that have to work. You will see something different than your angry post.
Huh? What "angry" post? I carefully selected my words to avoid emotionaliism. |