[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The Trinity - question within (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 2/1/2011 10:38:43 AM EDT
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This'll be a short question, but a complex one.
I'm in the process of reading the New Testament in its entirety, studying it as much as possible. While in this process, I saw the book "A Case for Christ", and have enjoyed it so far...however, one glaring thing to me is this. There's an entire chapter trying to explain the "oneness" of God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Why are we to believe that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are "one"? All throughout the Gospels, it's made very clear to me that Jesus is God's son (divine, yet human), and that when Jesus ascended after the resurrection he would send along another (the Holy Spirit) to dwell with/within the Apostles and disciples. So, to me, reading VERY literally, it appears that there are 3 separate entities. It honestly doesn't matter to me if there's 3 in 1, or God, Son, and Holy Spirit separate. I praise God, I believe that his Son, Jesus, gave his life for us, and that the Holy Spirit is here among us. I guess I wonder why it matters in the long run of things... Any thoughts? |
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First, understand that we are finite and are trying to understand the Infinite. We only understand as He reveals.
The Bible doesn't use the terms that we use when talking about the Trinity in exactly the same way that we do. We learn from Scripture, however, that there is a certain respect in which God is absolutely, indivisibly One (Deuteronomy 4:35, Deuteronomy 6:4, 1 Corinthians 8:4, etc.), and that this one God is a self-aware ego who can speak and say "I." We also find that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are not the same, that each of them is also a self-aware ego that can refer to himself as "I," and that they relate to one another in certain ways (Isaiah 61:1, Mark 1:9-11, etc.). In this respect, therefore, God is not One, but Three. Over the centuries the Church has settled on "essence" as the best term for the way in which God is One, and on "person" as the best term for the way in which God is Three. That's why we speak about three distinct Persons––Father, Son, and Holy Spirit––but only one divine Essence. We should be clear, however, that in choosing one term for God's One-ness and another for God's Three-ness, we really haven't explained anything. Scripture's teaching of the Trinity remains an unsolvable logical paradox. |
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Here is what Jesus said on the matter
John 14:7-9 7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him." 8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us." 9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? |
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So the best way to explain this is that there is only one God. The MYSTERY of the Trinity is the way in which God has manifested the ONE DIVINE presence in 3 ways.
God the Father. God the Son.. ( or GOD with skin on. I like how Bishop Foley refers to Christ Jesus as Infinity in Bonds) God The Holy Spirit... this is the Advocate promised by Christ. They are all one in the same. St. Augustine was walking on a beach after spending many hours praying and contemplating the meaning the Holy trinity. He wrote one of his student St Jerome of having a really hard time trying to understand the concept of a God that is one yet three. St. Augustine then sees a little boy who keeps running back and forth between the sea and a hole that he has dug. Back and forth and back and forth this child runs, filling a shell with the sea water and running back to pour it into the hole. St. Augustine asks the little boy what he is doing and the boy replies, “I’m pouring the ocean into this hole.” St. Augustine had his prayer answered in this way, “That is what it is like for us. Trying to understand God as the Trinity is like trying to pour the entire ocean into that small hole.” What is even more amazing to me ... hopefully to you as you come to understand what kind of love God the Father has for us.. is that God in no way could use anyone of us to pay for our sins. We are that loved. We have to freely chose to love Him back. |
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Serious business for sure!
Was Jesus God? Is the Holy Spirit God? Is God the only God? Is God Three in One one in Three? One of Several? Great Questions to look for in the Scriptures! C.H Spurgeon nailed it when he said "Scripture is the best interpreter of Scripture. The locks of Scripture are only to be opened with the keys of Scripture; and there is no lock in the whole Bible, which God meant us to open, without a key to fit it somewhere in the Bible, and we are to search for it until we find it." Nothing wrong with raising questions when we read the Bible.... we just need to make sure we look to the right place for the answers. |
if you go back to both the old and new testaments and put in the names where they were originally written, things definitely support seprateness - as in separate individuals. They are one in the same in the context that the Son perfectly reflects his Fathers will, they are different beings though. Mark |
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Just a few questions for the sake of conversation. If Jesus was not God....would that effect mankind's Salvation? Is it even important whether we place our faith in a Triune God or can we have faith in Polytheistic Gods? depends on if you are chosing to follow the Ten Commandments or not, as well as wether you are a follower of Christ or not, as Jesus was a monotheistic believer. When he basically summed up the Commandments in Matthew 22:37-40 he showed that he was a follower of his Father and not himself. He chose to do the will of his Father and not himself. They are not one. ETA: salvation of mankind is only possible through the sacrifice of the Son - Jesus. Mark |
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The trinity is utter nonsense. According to the Bible, Jesus was the SON of God. He was not, and is not God. He is the son, a completely separate and distinct entity/soul. As Jesus said, my father is greater than I. The holy ghost isn't a person. It's just God's spirit. The two terms (spirit and holy ghost) are completely interchangeable.
There, wasn't that a lot easier than trying to wrestle the trinity doctrine into making any kind of sense? |
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The trinity is utter nonsense. According to the Bible, Jesus was the SON of God. He was not, and is not God. He is the son, a completely separate and distinct entity/soul. As Jesus said, my father is greater than I. The holy ghost isn't a person. It's just God's spirit. The two terms (spirit and holy ghost) are completely interchangeable. There, wasn't that a lot easier than trying to wrestle the trinity doctrine into making any kind of sense? unfortunately, uncommon sense does not prevail in society and people will still stand behind the concept. well stated though. just to add - rhetorically of course, if God was so mysterious, why would he have left the book for us and allowed Holy Spirit to assist in the understanding of it? Mark |
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The trinity is utter nonsense. According to the Bible, Jesus was the SON of God. He was not, and is not God. He is the son, a completely separate and distinct entity/soul. As Jesus said, my father is greater than I. The holy ghost isn't a person. It's just God's spirit. The two terms (spirit and holy ghost) are completely interchangeable. There, wasn't that a lot easier than trying to wrestle the trinity doctrine into making any kind of sense? Yes, if you were right. The word "God" in the Hebrew language, Elohim, is special because it is plural even though it refers to the one true God. The one God is three persons. He is "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit," as Jesus indicates with the triune name that he directs us to use during baptism (Matthew 28:19). John 1:1 shows us that Jesus (The Word) was present at creation. Lookin further into Genesis, it would be going too far to say that Genesis 1:26 "proves" the doctrine of the Trinity. But once you've learned the doctrine of the Trinity from the rest of Scripture, verses like this one make good sense. |
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Because we are sinful and therefore have imperfect reasoning, the Holy Spirit guides us. The bible itself tells us we can't have faith unless the Holy Spirit is within us. Without the Holy Spirit, we are dead. it also says that faith without works is dead. so what are works? I don't ask this for us to answer what works are, but rather to understand context. Recall that the Holy Spirit within us was seriously depicted when disciples were annoited with it. Does that me they were possessed by it as well? Mark |
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The trinity is utter nonsense. According to the Bible, Jesus was the SON of God. He was not, and is not God. He is the son, a completely separate and distinct entity/soul. As Jesus said, my father is greater than I. The holy ghost isn't a person. It's just God's spirit. The two terms (spirit and holy ghost) are completely interchangeable. There, wasn't that a lot easier than trying to wrestle the trinity doctrine into making any kind of sense? Yes, if you were right. The word "God" in the Hebrew language, Elohim, is special because it is plural even though it refers to the one true God. The one God is three persons. He is "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit," as Jesus indicates with the triune name that he directs us to use during baptism (Matthew 28:19). John 1:1 shows us that Jesus (The Word) was present at creation. Lookin further into Genesis, it would be going too far to say that Genesis 1:26 "proves" the doctrine of the Trinity. But once you've learned the doctrine of the Trinity from the rest of Scripture, verses like this one make good sense. The word God according to the Jews was there in many different forms. I recently recall speaking with some Jews at a work related event at a Synagoge. One pointed out there was 18/21 (sorry I cannot recall due to being ill right now) names of God. One also needs to remember that the uttering of God's name was not done so as to avoid bringing reproach on it. Hence the pervasive use of "titles" vs his actual name. Even to this day, Jews will not call on his name outloud due to tradition and the concern of mis-using his name. I also recall that only some form of "council" (read a group of elder Rabbis - I think) would actually call on his name out loud. Our fellow Jewish ARFCOMMers could probably educated me/us on this. Recently the Ten Commandments from the Dead Sea Scrolls visited Toronto. I went there and saw the name written a significant number of times...yet it was rendered as G-D each time on the descriptions. One of the Biggest sins of Mankind has been the removal of God's name from the scriptures. After all, what is part of the Lord's Prayer? Hallowed by thy Name! ...it has made his position as the Almighty Soverign of the universe be called into question and a muddying of the waters in how we view his right to rule as the creator of all living things and the universe. His Son yields to him....yet we do not. His Son believes in him, yet we we call them one and the same. Yes you can quote John 1:1, however if you go back to old scripts and replace the name where it should be, things become very clear. I could list you plenty of scriptures from both the Hebrew and Greek writings - they cannot be taken separately...they have to harmonize from beginning to end - only when you do do this, will you see a VERY clear deliniation between the two. Mark |
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Here is what Jesus said on the matter John 14:7-9 7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him." 8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us." 9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? A lot of opinons but was Jesus lieing in the above verse. We know the scriptures teach that God cannot lie. Titus 1:1-3 1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior; |
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Here is what Jesus said on the matter 9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? what in that scripture suggests that Jesus was lieing or that they are one and the same? Aptly said that he who has seen him has seen the Father! How many of you have a child that is a dead ringer for you as the father? go beyond that, how many have mimiced you? mannerisms the same? etc...we are all imperfect humans who are able to mimic our fathers to a great degree.....Imagine how much more so when it is two perfect beings? especially one that is determined to assist in the sanctification of his Father"s name when it was maligned by the wicked one....how much more so will a perfect Son, the only Begotten Son, who was with his Father in Heaven and helped him create the Earth and mankind be the one to do his Father's will to a perfect degree and thereby fullfill the scripture quoted above?! He who has seen Jesus, has seen what the Father is like, he was a perfect embodiment of what God stood for, what he wanted and what he belives in. That doesn't make them the same person though. for those that are willing to look check these out: Gen 1:26 - emphsis on "us" Gen 3:15 - emphasis on the "Seed" - if God was the Seed, how could he be the "woman's seed" and how could he be bruised? - God cannot die - the bruising was the 3 days that Christ was dead, yet raised - this was the bruising in the heel - when the wicked one is bruised in the head, this will not be survivable - there will be no resurrection for the wicked one. Ps 83:18, Ex 6:2,3, 3:15, - look at older versions of the Bible 20-30 years older minimum Ex 33:20 - if they were one and the same what is being refered to here? Joh 1:8, 1:18 Isa 42:8 - really, his name is "Lord" - that is a title 1Joh 4:12 Isa 46:8-11 1 Cor 8:5,6 Ps 82:1 Rev 3:14 - reference to Jesus being created Ga 4:4 - If God cannot be seen, how could he come out of a woman? Heb 2:9 - while in human form, was lower than Angels. God is not able to do this. Mat 3:16,17 - was God talking to himself? Rev 12:6- This is the Woman referred to earlier in Gen 3:15 - where did she go? a placed prepared for her by God Rev 12:7 - it is widely agreed that Michael was the name that Jesus went by in heavan - how can the devil fight God and live? Michael wasn't allowed to destroy the devil as it wasn't his time yet (recall the demons possessing the swine - have you come to judge us before the appointed time? ) Matt 23:9,10 - they are 2 different people one of my favorites - Matt 24:36 another favorite: Job 1:6-2:10 - if Michael/Jesus cleaned out heaven in Rev, why was he coming to speak with God much earlier on in Job? each one of these scriptures demonstrates that Jesus and his Father were two different people. Jesus does not act on his own - he always yields to his Father - if they were one, then he would act on his own. Also food for thought, when Jesus died, if they were one, who was minding the store so to speak? especially since God cannot die. Sorry I could keep going but I am getting winded due to my sinus infection. Mark |
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Bible speakes of three. So God created us in His image as stated below.
Genesis 1:26 26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." Being created in Gods image, the three parts of a man need to be sanctified. Same as the three parts of God. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Notice there are three parts of you that need to be sanctifed as stated in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 but only one person. |
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Genesis 1:26
26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." our image can be two or more - nothing here indicates three 1 Thessalonians 5:23 Judaism shows that the Almighty God is a single God. Jesus was a Jew, Jesus followed the Mosaic Law until it was nullified with his death. Jesus did not believe in a trinity because he was a Jew and intimately knew his Father. Show me scripture from both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures that references their ORIGINAL names - not titles like Lord, God, et al. that proves the trinity. The moment you put their names into context - like the original form - the concept of the trinity flies right out the window....conversly, the moment the waters are muddied by using titles, I can loosely see how one could begin to believe the trinity - mysterious or not. I was a follower of a trinitarian faith at one point, until I studied the book. Then the book showed what I believed in was based on tradition and dogma. If I chose to be steadfast, then I would have hampered my studying of the book. If someone is wrong in the belief system, it can rock them right down to their foundation...ultimately prayer and study will prove to be the most valuable factor...but remember, sometimes we don't like how our prayers are being answered. Are we ready to seriously look at our belief systems? Are you willing to prove it to yourself regularly? 1Tim 3:16,17 shows that scripture is beneficial for reproving and setting things straight. Mark |
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Genesis 1:26
26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." our image can be two or more - nothing here indicates three 1 Thessalonians 5:23 Judaism shows that the Almighty God is a single God. Jesus was a Jew, Jesus followed the Mosaic Law until it was nullified with his death. Jesus did not believe in a trinity because he was a Jew and intimately knew his Father. Show me scripture from both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures that references their ORIGINAL names - not titles like Lord, God, et al. that proves the trinity. The moment you put their names into context - like the original form - the concept of the trinity flies right out the window....conversly, the moment the waters are muddied by using titles, I can loosely see how one could begin to believe the trinity - mysterious or not. I was a follower of a trinitarian faith at one point, until I studied the book. Then the book showed what I believed in was based on tradition and dogma. If I chose to be steadfast, then I would have hampered my studying of the book. If someone is wrong in the belief system, it can rock them right down to their foundation...ultimately prayer and study will prove to be the most valuable factor...but remember, sometimes we don't like how our prayers are being answered. Are we ready to seriously look at our belief systems? Are you willing to prove it to yourself regularly? 1Tim 3:16,17 shows that scripture is beneficial for reproving and setting things straight. Mark So Mark are you saying you do not have a body or a spirit or a soul, Three parts that do not need to be sancified as it says in 1Thessalonians 5:23? Key word in 1Tim3:16 is manifested 1 Timothy 3:16 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. |
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Genesis 1:26
26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." our image can be two or more - nothing here indicates three 1 Thessalonians 5:23 Judaism shows that the Almighty God is a single God. Jesus was a Jew, Jesus followed the Mosaic Law until it was nullified with his death. Jesus did not believe in a trinity because he was a Jew and intimately knew his Father. Show me scripture from both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures that references their ORIGINAL names - not titles like Lord, God, et al. that proves the trinity. The moment you put their names into context - like the original form - the concept of the trinity flies right out the window....conversly, the moment the waters are muddied by using titles, I can loosely see how one could begin to believe the trinity - mysterious or not. I was a follower of a trinitarian faith at one point, until I studied the book. Then the book showed what I believed in was based on tradition and dogma. If I chose to be steadfast, then I would have hampered my studying of the book. If someone is wrong in the belief system, it can rock them right down to their foundation...ultimately prayer and study will prove to be the most valuable factor...but remember, sometimes we don't like how our prayers are being answered. Are we ready to seriously look at our belief systems? Are you willing to prove it to yourself regularly? 1Tim 3:16,17 shows that scripture is beneficial for reproving and setting things straight. Mark So Mark are you saying you do not have a body or a spirit or a soul, Three parts that do not need to be sancified as it says in 1Thessalonians 5:23? Key word in 1Tim3:16 is manifested 1 Timothy 3:16 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. no, what I am saying is how does this clearly prove the trinity, especially in context of everything else in the scriptures I posted. did you read them? Mark |
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further to that, have you looked up the scriptures in older bibles or researched what manuscripts can be found on line? the name distinctions are very hard to argue. Mark To answer your question qbove yes. You did not answer my questions. So Mark are you saying you do not have a body or a spirit or a soul, Three parts that do not need to be sancified as it says in 1Thessalonians 5:23? What does the word Manifested mean? Key word in 1Tim3:16 is manifested 1 Timothy 3:16 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. |
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Rev 19:10 - And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Here it is in a nutshell folks: Worship God (the father). If any doctrine steers you away from that simple message, it's wrong. 2Cor5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; [19] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. [20] Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. Jesus's mission was to reconcile man to GOD, not to Jesus, to GOD: Worship GOD. If any doctrine steers you away from that simple message, it's wrong. |
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further to that, have you looked up the scriptures in older bibles or researched what manuscripts can be found on line? the name distinctions are very hard to argue. Mark To answer your question qbove yes. You did not answer my questions. So Mark are you saying you do not have a body or a spirit or a soul, Three parts that do not need to be sancified as it says in 1Thessalonians 5:23? What does the word Manifested mean? Key word in 1Tim3:16 is manifested 1 Timothy 3:16 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. from an online dictionary man·i·fest (mn-fst)
adj. Clearly apparent to the sight or understanding; obvious. 1. To show or demonstrate plainly; reveal: "Mercedes . . . manifested the chaotic abandonment of hysteria" (Jack London). 2. To be evidence of; prove. in regards to the 1Thess, my various translations render the first word as "He", not God. The "He" clearly refers to Jesus. Once again, remove titles and things change significantly. Where it doesn't render it "He", the context is clearly directed toward Jesus. Not God himself. Yes I have a Body, it is my soul....do I have Spirit within? no I do not. We are not like the first century Christians that had Holy Spirit poured out on them. Have I been on the receiving end of Holy Spirit? I would suggest yes at times. It is God's acitive power after all. Does that support that a trinity is what is taught in the book? NO it does not. After reading the scriptures quoted, how can one still firmly abide by a doctrine of man vs God? Now that I have a fresh day ahead of me, I will dig up more if you would like. You still haven't answered the issue of separate names and personnas....what does the name Jesus mean? That speaks volumes! What does God's name mean? More again. Mark |
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While there is a mystery to the Trinity that element of mystery makes the Trinity no less true.
The problem with our finite minds is that we always want to force an Infinite God into our own understanding. When God declares his love for sinners based on faith and not merit...we find that hard to grasp so we create our own religious systems and attempt to fit God into them. Since we can’t fully understand loving something that is completely unlovable such as a sinner becoming adopted and loved by God we compile a list of things that the sinner can do to help God out…good deeds that don’t just reflect salvation but merit salvation. Since we don’t fully understand Grace we mix it up with our own religious systems that ultimately rob it of all its beauty. In the attempt to understand Gods Grace we modify it to better fit our understanding. The same is true with the Trinity. We don’t understand what God declares so we look for ways to make it a better fit for our own logic and intellect. I the effort to better understand God we reduce Him to something less than he declares Himself to be. While we might like our picture of God better…we fail to acknowledge that the picture is one we created with our own hands. One thing the Bible makes Crystal Clear is that there is only one God. This is reinforced over and over again. The thing we don’t understand is how or why God Is both The Father in Heaven, The Son Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit. Since we can’t swallow the whole of that truth....we break it down into bit size pieces. We divide the One God manifest in Three persons into Three separate Gods…and we try and do it using His own book The Bible. It’s not hard to dice The Scriptures into almost anything we want it to become. Men have used to convince people to murder in the name of Jesus they have twisted it to gain control over nations, for political and financial gain. But they do it at a price and that price is very costly. When we break it into pieces we lose the whole story of sin and redemption Holiness, Justice Grace and Mercy. God becomes to us less than he declairs Himself to be. Just who does God Declare himself to be and where does Jesus fit in? |
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In the beginning God created Gen 1:1
And God said, Let us make man in our image1:26 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 1:27 And Moses said unto God, Behold, [when] I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What [is] his name? what shall I say unto them? Ex 3:13 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: 14 "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand." Det 6:4 "...before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." Isa 43:10 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Isa 44:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Mal 3:6 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Luke 4:8 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].John1:18 but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. Jon 5:18 And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. Rom 5:11 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, Eph 3 Who dwells in our hearts? Jesus? the Holy Spirit? |
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Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. 1Ti 1:17
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 1john 4:9 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Jude 1:4 If God is Lord and Jesus is Lord which is God? and if they are both God than God was incorrect when He sated many times that He is the only God. And what about The Holy Spirit? Is he a separate God a third individual deity? "But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God."Acts 5 3-4 By lying to The Spirit they had Lied to God….but if the Spirit is separate from God than God had lied to them! when he claimed to be the only God |
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That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. Eph 3
Him who? Jesus, God? ….the fullness of God is Jesus The Father and the Spirit! Three in One…One in Three! |
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Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. 2 Cor 4 1-7 Let’s be clear…there are those who handle the Word of God dishonestly…some out of ignorance some with intention. That message is one that atempts to strip God of His message to sinners that Jesus is Lord the manifestation of God the father. Who is the image of God? Jesus Christ! What is his purpose? To shine the Gospel, We preach Jesus because Jesus is the face of God ....Jesus is the manifestation of God…not separation in nature but separate in purpose. Jesus Christ manifests the Good News of God’s Love to sinners.... He point’s men to God The Father! God commanded the light (Jesus, “I am the Light”) to shine into the darkness into our wicked hearts…to do what? To Point us to the knowledge of God through His face. Jesus is the face of God to the sinner Jesus is God manifest to all men pointing us to our Creator. Easy to read but difficult to comprehend…but that makes it none the less true. |
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He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 1 John 4 Again God manifest his love through Jesus Christ... while no man has seen God we see Jesus Christ Gods Son…God in the Flesh. Who dwells in us? God, Jesus or the Spirit? The scripture points to all Three because all three are in God. “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God the same was in the beginning with God”…Jesus Christ is Gods Word to sinners the face and manifestation of God... separate in purpose but equal in Deity. |
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Who has the Power to Forgive sins?
Mine eyes [are] ever toward the LORD; for he shall pluck my feet out of the net. Turn thee unto me, and have mercy upon me; for I [am] desolate and afflicted. Look upon mine affliction and my pain; and forgive all my sins. PS 25 O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.PS 51-1 Then hear thou in heaven, and forgive the sin of thy people Israel, and bring them again unto the land which thou gavest unto their fathers.1 Kings 8-34 for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Jer 31-34 The Lord forgives Sins! Only God has the power to forgive sin because it is only to God that the debt for sin is due. But Jesus claimed the power to forgive sin…a power that is only reserved for God alone! “When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.” This is one thing even the religious people of Jesus day understood. There are some debts that only God can cover. “Why doth this [man] thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? Mark 2-7 These men didn’t hate and murder Jesus because he simply healed sink people…but because he claimed to be equal with God…Gods Son…God in the flesh! This is why so many reject Jesus today! Not because of the good things he said but because of who he claimed to be! That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship [is] with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.1 John 1 |
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T1
you bring up good points...however, I again refer back to the original wordings....remove the title GOD/Lord/Adoni/Elohim and replace it with what was there originally. The scriptures you mention take on a completely different meaning then. in regards to the usage of Lord, how do these fit into your use of it? 1Pet3:6 Gen 18:12 The end result is 
IS GOD and 
IS GOD'S SON Mark |
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Is God Lord...or Jesus Lord?
And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this [is] my name for ever, and this [is] my memorial unto all generations. Ex 3:15… To Moses The LORD [is] my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, [and] my high tower. Ps 18:2…to David And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb [to be] his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.Is 49:5…To Isaiah O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name. Dan 9:19….To Daniel Then saith he (Jesus) to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God... Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed. John 20….Even doubting Thomas knew. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. Acts 7:59…To dying Steven The only question left is for us …do we divide God to fit our understanding or believe Him to be who He claims to be? What Power affects our lives? "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Mat 28-19 "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen." 2 Cor 13:14 |
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I was recently invited to re-read the Gospel of John, specifically so that I might better understand the relationship of the "Trinity". Reading John made it so much more clear to me that The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost are three distinct individuals. United in purpose for certain, but still distinct persons.
Jesus (The Word) was with God (The Father) in the beginning, and was himself a God also. Jesus was begotten of The Father. Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus calls the Temple his, "Father's house." The Father loves The Son. The Father hath committed all judgement to The Son. The Father hath sent him. Jesus states outright that he is not doing his own will, but rather the will of The Father. In Chapter 8 Jesus said, 17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. Jesus explicitly states here that they are two individuals (specifically two men). Jesus declares that he always does those things that please The Father. Jesus declares that the Father loves him because he lays down his life (sacrifices himself). Jesus declares that he receives commandments from The Father (John 10: 18 and again in John 12:49). It seems that some of the confusion we see regarding their relationship comes from John 10:30. Many interpret that scripture to mean a literal single person-ness. Yet the same people ignore John 17:11 11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. I've never seen anyone who believes that The Father and The Son are the same person interpret this scripture the same way (which would mean that all disciples become a literal single person somehow). Again in verses 21 and 22: 21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: Unless a Christian disciple believes that they are going to be literally bodily assimilated into God, that kind of interpretation makes no sense when applied to The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost. So after reading John I just don't see how a Christian can misunderstand the relationship of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost. |
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John 8 vs 18
"I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me bears witness of me." Does indeed refer to two separate persons.... that is the point of the Trinity while they are distinct they are the same. Matthew Henry says it better than I could. "Behold two witnesses! Though in human courts, where two witnesses are required, the criminal or candidate is not admitted to be a witness for himself; yet in a matter purely divine, which can be proved only by a divine testimony, and God himself must be the witness, if the formality of two or three witnesses be insisted on, there can be no other than the eternal Father, the eternal Son of the Father, and the eternal Spirit. Now if the testimony of two distinct persons, that are men, and therefore may deceive or be deceived, is conclusive, much more ought the testimony of the Son of God concerning himself, backed with the testimony of his Father concerning him, to command assent; see 1 Jn. 5:7, 9-11. Now this proves not only that the Father and the Son are two distinct persons (for their respective testimonies are here spoken of as the testimonies of two several persons), but that these two are one, not only one in their testimony, but equal in power and glory, and therefore the same in substance. St. Austin here takes occasion to caution his hearers against Sabellianism on the one hand, which confounded the persons in the Godhead, and Arianism on the other, which denied the Godhead of the Son and Spirit. Alius est filius, et alius pater, non tamed aliud, sed hoc ipsum est et pater, et filius, scilicet unus Deus est—The Son is one Person, and the Father is another; they do not, however, constitute two Beings, but the Father is the same Being that the Son is, that is, the only true God. Tract. 36, in Joann. Christ here speaks of himself and the Father as witnesses to the world, giving in evidence to the reason and conscience of the children of men, whom he deals with as men. And these witnesses to the world now will in the great day be witnesses against those that persist in unbelief, and their word will judge men." |
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"criley" and I went back and forth on this for weeks.
To me, Jesus made it all VERY clear in John 17. There are other verses throughout scripture that support what Jesus tells us about His relationship to His Father in John 17. We may be spirits that are in imperfect tabernacles on this earth, but . . . . our Sirits recognize eternal truth and John 17 in PURE ETERNAL DOCTRINE ! God's doctrine is easy to understand when NOT mixed with the doctrine of men. |
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Quoted:
Is God Lord...or Jesus Lord? And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this [is] my name for ever, and this [is] my memorial unto all generations. Ex 3:15… To Moses The LORD [is] my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, [and] my high tower. Ps 18:2…to David And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb [to be] his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.Is 49:5…To Isaiah O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name. Dan 9:19….To Daniel Then saith he (Jesus) to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God... Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed. John 20….Even doubting Thomas knew. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. Acts 7:59…To dying Steven The only question left is for us …do we divide God to fit our understanding or believe Him to be who He claims to be? What Power affects our lives? "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Mat 28-19 "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen." 2 Cor 13:14 Agreed |
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Gospel of John
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understooda it. 6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.b 10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,c nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. 14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,d who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’” 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,e,f who is at the Father’s side, has made him known. Christ is the Word. The Word is God. Christ is God. Also, read the Athanasian Creed. |
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Quoted:
This'll be a short question, but a complex one. I'm in the process of reading the New Testament in its entirety, studying it as much as possible. While in this process, I saw the book "A Case for Christ", and have enjoyed it so far...however, one glaring thing to me is this. There's an entire chapter trying to explain the "oneness" of God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Why are we to believe that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are "one"? All throughout the Gospels, it's made very clear to me that Jesus is God's son (divine, yet human), and that when Jesus ascended after the resurrection he would send along another (the Holy Spirit) to dwell with/within the Apostles and disciples. So, to me, reading VERY literally, it appears that there are 3 separate entities. It honestly doesn't matter to me if there's 3 in 1, or God, Son, and Holy Spirit separate. I praise God, I believe that his Son, Jesus, gave his life for us, and that the Holy Spirit is here among us. I guess I wonder why it matters in the long run of things... Any thoughts? Well,actually it does matter. You have a body that serves different functions if it works properly as we all do. So what body parts does a person use to walk with that touches the ground when he or she walks to and fro on the ground with no shoes on? Normally is it their hands or their own two feet? Thanks, SAE |
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Quoted: The trinity is utter nonsense. According to the Bible, Jesus was the SON of God. He was not, and is not God. He is the son, a completely separate and distinct entity/soul. As Jesus said, my father is greater than I. The holy ghost isn't a person. It's just God's spirit. The two terms (spirit and holy ghost) are completely interchangeable. There, wasn't that a lot easier than trying to wrestle the trinity doctrine into making any kind of sense? So, Jesus is like Paris Hilton? |
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Quoted:
I can not read Revelation Chapter 5 and believe in the trinity theory. Are we reading the same Revelation? Cahpter 5 tells me that the heavenly worship underscores what Christ did for us with His redeeming work. Without Him, our world has no hope. But because Jesus was killed and then conquered death we're ransomed and we have the hope of glory. We will be with Him, and because He was perfect can we claim this. Only God can be perfect. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
The trinity is utter nonsense. According to the Bible, Jesus was the SON of God. He was not, and is not God. He is the son, a completely separate and distinct entity/soul. As Jesus said, my father is greater than I. The holy ghost isn't a person. It's just God's spirit. The two terms (spirit and holy ghost) are completely interchangeable. There, wasn't that a lot easier than trying to wrestle the trinity doctrine into making any kind of sense? So, Jesus is like Paris Hilton? Troll much? |
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Quoted: Eh, it's a slow day.Quoted: Quoted: The trinity is utter nonsense. According to the Bible, Jesus was the SON of God. He was not, and is not God. He is the son, a completely separate and distinct entity/soul. As Jesus said, my father is greater than I. The holy ghost isn't a person. It's just God's spirit. The two terms (spirit and holy ghost) are completely interchangeable. There, wasn't that a lot easier than trying to wrestle the trinity doctrine into making any kind of sense? So, Jesus is like Paris Hilton? Troll much? |