[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Notification (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 4/2/2010 7:13:36 AM EDT
|
I no longer beleive in atheists.
As such, and in an effort to be logically consistent, I will no longer refer to "atheists" as "atheists." It is my firm beleif athesits (and agnostics, for that matter) do in fact beleive in God. The existence of the universe, the existence of life itself, the existence of mathematical constants, the existence of scientific laws, and the existence of transcendant moral stadards all make atheism logically untenable. And from what I see, those who claim to be atheist / agnostic all seem to be quite logical, intelligent people. As such. its not even possible they really hold to such an illogcal, irrational notion that God deos not exist. For me, the discussion of the existence of God is over. Its settled fact. As such, I will , in the future, refer to atheists / agnostics as "unwilling theists." They beleive in God, they just are unwilling to honor Him as God. (In fact, they speak of God all the time - they just call Him "evolution" or "random mutation." ) I will, in advance, ask for your forgiveness when I slip up and use the terms atheist / agnostic. Old habits seem to hang on and on. Note: This thread is not intended as a forum for me to debate the matter here. Its a notification of intent, and apology for the failure to follow thru I am sure to be guilty of. Any and all are free to post, but I will not reply in this thread. I may send an IM for especially cogent posts . 
God bless you atheists / agnostics. 
|
|
The Bible agrees with you.
Rom 1 18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23. and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. 24. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25. because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. |
|
The knowledge of God and good and evil lies in everyone's hearts. People know that "something" is there or caused us to exist and the search for proof of it's existance or an explanation. People know good from evil and usually choose to desire to do good.
But they can't know the true God without the Holy Spirit working in them. |
|
We've had similar discussions in the past, garandman, over the nature of my agnosticism.
On this point I agree with you. I don't believe in atheists either. For a person to state definitively that there is no God is an illogical and unsupportable position. Don't confuse that with agnostics, though. I don't deny the possibility that there is a God, but none of the religious possibilities I've seen have convinced me yet. |
|
Quoted:
We've had similar discussions in the past, garandman, over the nature of my agnosticism. On this point I agree with you. I don't believe in atheists either. For a person to state definitively that there is no God is an illogical and unsupportable position. Don't confuse that with agnostics, though. I don't deny the possibility that there is a God, but none of the religious possibilities I've seen have convinced me yet. I can relate to agnosticism. Been there, done that. Had my life gone by with more distractions, I may have never searched for the truth of God's existence. God sent me trials that pushed me to open my eyes. I recognized that I was denying God so I could live life on my terms. If I were to acknowledge God to be as He says, I knew I could no longer go about seeking the destructive behaviour my human body desired. Now I realize I was a fence sitter so I could enjoy sin and suppress the guilt that comes with it and still be close enough to God to reach out to Him when "the going gets tough". Now I am happier than I have ever been since reaching out. My hope is that you may reach out as well. This side of the fence is more rewarding than you can see from the fence line. Respectfully, Don |
|
You Bible thumping Religious types are the narrow minded ones and when the Aliens that first seeded life on earth return they will show you!
Just because the Bible is the single Book in all of history that is prophetically accurate, historically accurate, culture changing, life changing, and history changing for the better…doesn’t make it relevant! Just because your Jesus split time and just because His followers have altered the world for the better more than any other historical figure doesn’t give Him viability. After all, this Jesus offers salvation as a free gift… he offers restoration with God our Creator not based on what we do for Him but what he has done for us….that makes no sense as it is in direct contradiction to every other religion in the world! 20 plus major religions and thousands of minor religions agree that the only the best of us can reach God by effort and work…but this Jesus of the Bible tells us that the worst sinners can come to God through Faith alone?...crazy! Just look at the benefits that Atheism has given mankind….that religion has given mankind ….compare those to what this Jesus and His Bible have done. Then you have this foolishness about Him defeating sin on the Cross and death from the Grave with the promise of Hope for the future…that his Triumphant return will bring the final judgment on sin and He will make all things new…there will be no more tears no death….he so ripped that off the aliens. One time on the History channel I saw a video clip recorded in space that showed this “orb of light” kind of hover then shoot off really fast….that’s all the proof I need! Orbs of light coupled with my good works should give me that golden ticket to whatever cosmic future all the good people get to look forward to! Salvation by Grace through Faith indeed!…..that’s just way to easy for us “good people!” "So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: "Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, 'To the unknown god.' What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, for 'In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we are indeed his offspring. Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed(Jesus); and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead. Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked. But others said, "We will hear you again about this." So Paul went out from their midst..........But some men joined him and believed," Acts 17 |
|
Posted by Grandman:
It is my firm beleif athesits (and agnostics, for that matter) do in fact beleive in God. That's funny, I was just telling my daughter the other day (come to think of it, that day was Easter) that, deep in thier hearts, religious people don't really believe in an afterlife. If they did, why would they cry and grieve when a loved one dies? After all, if there's a heaven and the loved one was deserving, that's where they went. If the religious person is also deserving, they'll meet their loved one again in bliss. Just because that loved one will be missed for a few years means nothing if you'll spend eternity in heaven together. Deep down, everyone knows that death is the end. When the brain dies, the personality dissolves. Forever. People cry at funerals because they know it's over for the one going in the ground and their turn is coming all too soon. |
|
Quoted:
Posted by Grandman:
It is my firm beleif athesits (and agnostics, for that matter) do in fact beleive in God. That's funny, I was just telling my daughter the other day (come to think of it, that day was Easter) that, deep in thier hearts, religious people don't really believe in an afterlife. If they did, why would they cry and grieve when a loved one dies? After all, if there's a heaven and the loved one was deserving, that's where they went. If the religious person is also deserving, they'll meet their loved one again in bliss. Just because that loved one will be missed for a few years means nothing if you'll spend eternity in heaven together. Deep down, everyone knows that death is the end. When the brain dies, the personality dissolves. Forever. People cry at funerals because they know it's over for the one going in the ground and their turn is coming all too soon. 
People cry at funerals for thousands of reasons. We might actually want to be with them NOW and be able to see them right now and talk to them now. And yes, we (believers) do know that we will see them again and we do remember this at funerals with joy. |
|
Quoted:
Posted by Grandman:
It is my firm beleif athesits (and agnostics, for that matter) do in fact beleive in God. That's funny, I was just telling my daughter the other day (come to think of it, that day was Easter) that, deep in thier hearts, religious people don't really believe in an afterlife. If they did, why would they cry and grieve when a loved one dies? After all, if there's a heaven and the loved one was deserving, that's where they went. If the religious person is also deserving, they'll meet their loved one again in bliss. Just because that loved one will be missed for a few years means nothing if you'll spend eternity in heaven together. Deep down, everyone knows that death is the end. When the brain dies, the personality dissolves. Forever. People cry at funerals because they know it's over for the one going in the ground and their turn is coming all too soon. We cry at funerals because we know that we will miss that loved one...for now. And we also rejoice in the knowledge that we will be together again soon. I've attend funerals of believers and nonbelievers alike. I can assure you that there is a difference; one is full of hope and faith and the other isn't. There will be laughter and joy at mine. |
|
Quoted:
After all, if there's a heaven and the loved one was deserving, that's where they went. If the religious person is also deserving, they'll meet their loved one again in bliss. . Uhhmmmm, Japle....if you think Christianity has anything to do with going to heaven because we are "deserving".... then you really don't know enuf to be telling anyone anything about Christianity. 
Perhaps your daughter will receive Christ as Saviour, and inform you of what Christianity actually teaches. I certainly pray that will be the case.
Till that time, feel free to ask me (or one of the other CHristians here) |
|
Posted by Grandman:
Uhhmmmm, Japle....if you think Christianity has anything to do with going to heaven because we are "deserving".... then you really don't know enuf to be telling anyone anything about Christianity. I just knew you'd pick that as a point to argue. Perhaps your daughter will receive Christ as Saviour, and inform you of what Christianity actually teaches. I certainly pray that will be the case.
No chance of that. If anything, she's studied religion in even more depth than I have. She sees all religions for what they are. |
|
Quoted:
Posted by Grandman:
It is my firm beleif athesits (and agnostics, for that matter) do in fact beleive in God. That's funny, I was just telling my daughter the other day (come to think of it, that day was Easter) that, deep in thier hearts, religious people don't really believe in an afterlife. If they did, why would they cry and grieve when a loved one dies? After all, if there's a heaven and the loved one was deserving, that's where they went. If the religious person is also deserving, they'll meet their loved one again in bliss. Just because that loved one will be missed for a few years means nothing if you'll spend eternity in heaven together. Deep down, everyone knows that death is the end. When the brain dies, the personality dissolves. Forever. People cry at funerals because they know it's over for the one going in the ground and their turn is coming all too soon. I'm guessing you equate the human personality with the soul? And yes, death is our enemy.....but it is our defeated enemy. Even Jesus wept over the death of a friend…right before he brought Him back to life! We are saddened when we see death just as we are when we see suffering. But we rejoice in the knowledge that death is not the end. Even in a wedding you can see similar emotions…while yes there is much joy there is still some sadness. When the father gives His daughter to another man there is a part of Him that greaves while at the same time he can be rejoicing. Its not such a complex thing to understand. |
|
Oh, man! You guys are completely missing my point.
My post wasn't intended to actually claim that all religious people believe that death is the end of everything, but to expose the silly logic in the OP by using it from the other side. Anyone who thinks he can know the truth about what others believe is living in a fantasy world. I'm an Athiest. I maintain that there are no supernatural beings. No gods. No goddesses. No spirits. No elves, fairies, ghosts or invisible dragons in your garage. I've been in plenty of situations where a religious person would have prayed for help. It never occurred to me to do so. I know there's nobody listening. If you want to call me somethig other than an Athiest, go ahead. Amuse yourself. 
|
|
Rom 1
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. The knowledge was there, they just didn't want it. They were dealt a measure of faith: Ro 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. They received light: Joh 1:9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. And they still have a Saviour they can trust: 1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. |
|
Quoted:
Good show, Garandman! Can a wristwatch describe the watchmaker who made it? Mighty hard even to try. That is to a degree true. We cannot in this life posess comprehensive knowledge of God. Unlike the watch, however, we posess brains, intellects, minds, spirits, consciences, and hearts that along with our mouths do know intuitively of God, and we communicate that knowledge verbally. We are made in God's image ( specifically, the ability to grasp true truth, to appreciate beauty, discern God's definition of right and wrong thru numerous means, including conscience, etc) As Calvin said "To be self aware is to be God aware" - for to beleive in our own existence necessitates beleif in our "watchmaker" - even if we cannot compeltely comprehend the "Watchmaker." To be self-aware and NOT to be God aware is irrationalism. It is to look at the watch, and deny the existence of its maker. Worse, it is the watch denyoing existence of the watchmaker. It is irrational arrogance. |
|
Bullseye, garandman! Bravo!
I think this is truly a brilliant post. You’ve just summed-up precisely what I and many Christians have been uncovering more and more frequently with regards to “unwilling theists”. Every individual is aware of God’s existence and power over His creation -I have no doubt about that at all. Most unwilling theists ––including prominent ones–– like Dawkins, Hitchens & Harris are keen in their judgments and accusations against God more than they are focused on any actual philosophical or intellectual discussion. In debates with unwilling theists about God, they routinely retreat to the self-righteousness of whatever moral standard they choose to feel least offended by and then direct their childish hostility towards God by accusing Him of being unfair, immoral and cruel. However, the humor in the irony of their accusations wears off quickly... |
|
Quoted:
I no longer beleive in atheists. As such, and in an effort to be logically consistent, I will no longer refer to "atheists" as "atheists." It is my firm beleif athesits (and agnostics, for that matter) do in fact beleive in God. The existence of the universe, the existence of life itself, the existence of mathematical constants, the existence of scientific laws, and the existence of transcendant moral stadards all make atheism logically untenable. And from what I see, those who claim to be atheist / agnostic all seem to be quite logical, intelligent people. As such. its not even possible they really hold to such an illogcal, irrational notion that God deos not exist. For me, the discussion of the existence of God is over. Its settled fact. As such, I will , in the future, refer to atheists / agnostics as "unwilling theists." They beleive in God, they just are unwilling to honor Him as God. (In fact, they speak of God all the time - they just call Him "evolution" or "random mutation." ) I will, in advance, ask for your forgiveness when I slip up and use the terms atheist / agnostic. Old habits seem to hang on and on. Note: This thread is not intended as a forum for me to debate the matter here. Its a notification of intent, and apology for the failure to follow thru I am sure to be guilty of. Any and all are free to post, but I will not reply in this thread. I may send an IM for especially cogent posts .
God bless you atheists / agnostics. i am stealing this |
|
Quoted:
I no longer beleive in atheists. As such, and in an effort to be logically consistent, I will no longer refer to "atheists" as "atheists." It is my firm beleif athesits (and agnostics, for that matter) do in fact beleive in God. The existence of the universe, the existence of life itself, the existence of mathematical constants, the existence of scientific laws, and the existence of transcendant moral stadards all make atheism logically untenable. And from what I see, those who claim to be atheist / agnostic all seem to be quite logical, intelligent people. As such. its not even possible they really hold to such an illogcal, irrational notion that God deos not exist. For me, the discussion of the existence of God is over. Its settled fact. As such, I will , in the future, refer to atheists / agnostics as "unwilling theists." They beleive in God, they just are unwilling to honor Him as God. (In fact, they speak of God all the time - they just call Him "evolution" or "random mutation." ) I will, in advance, ask for your forgiveness when I slip up and use the terms atheist / agnostic. Old habits seem to hang on and on. Note: This thread is not intended as a forum for me to debate the matter here. Its a notification of intent, and apology for the failure to follow thru I am sure to be guilty of. Any and all are free to post, but I will not reply in this thread. I may send an IM for especially cogent posts .
God bless you atheists / agnostics. Why is that? I'm gonna have to disagree with you here.
|
|
Quoted:
I no longer beleive in atheists. As such, and in an effort to be logically consistent, I will no longer refer to "atheists" as "atheists." It is my firm beleif athesits (and agnostics, for that matter) do in fact beleive in God. Which one? I'm not an atheist, but Cernunnos, The Horned God of the Hunt, and Taranis the Lord of Thunder, don't particularly want wishy-washy unwilling angry converts. Dagda and Lugh Lamhfada are more friendly. Maybe atheists believe in them. That's ok, I guess. And what about goddesses? If they believe in goddesses, they aren't atheists anymore. Danu and Brighid would welcome them with love and understanding. So Mote it Be |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I no longer beleive in atheists. As such, and in an effort to be logically consistent, I will no longer refer to "atheists" as "atheists." It is my firm beleif athesits (and agnostics, for that matter) do in fact beleive in God. Which one? I'm not an atheist, but Cernunnos, The Horned God of the Hunt, and Taranis the Lord of Thunder, don't particularly want wishy-washy unwilling angry converts. Dagda and Lugh Lamhfada are more friendly (every god fabricated by man is whatever we wish him to be...and unjust.) Maybe atheists believe (?????) in them. That's ok, I guess. And what about goddesses? If they believe in goddesses, they aren't atheists anymore. (I would think that would be a given.) Danu and Brighid would welcome them with love and understanding. (how can we be sure?) So Mote it Be |
|
Quoted:
I would like to point out that Christians are also "unwilling theists" if we're talking about Zeus, Odin, Ra, etc. Food for thought....... Oh I suspect most Christians believe in Zeus, Odin and Ra –– they're certainly not what some might think they are, though. |
|
Quoted:
I would like to point out that Christians are also "unwilling theists" if we're talking about Zeus, Odin, Ra, etc. Food for thought....... This actually raises a very salient point that I WILL address here... again, your ability to so skillfully conceptualize and engage the argument is just more evidence for the existence of God. But ultimately, you misunderstand the argument. The argument for theism is a two sided coin - each side of the coin is unique to itself, but ultimately there is no such thing as a one sided coin - the two sides are inseparable. "Heads" of the theism argument says that given the existence of (1) the universe itself (2) life itself (3) mathematical constants (4) scientific laws (5) transcendant moral standards, the ONLY rational beleif is in the exisstence of A God. Atheism, even agnosticism, are IRrational. They say the 5 things I've enumerated have no causal explanation. That A God exists is self-evident, takes no faith at all, and the denial of A God is an irrational beleif. It denies the rationality of these 5 things. The "Tails" side of the argument says that the self evident existence of A God is explained by the God of the Bible - Jehovah, the LORD, the Creator of Genesis 1:1, the Saviour of John 3:16. THAT IS a matter of faith. So NO....Christians are NOT "unwilling theists, as they see the rationality of the "Heads" side of the argument. All Christians beleive A God exists - they are all theists. Only atheists / agnostics are "Unwilling theists" - refusing to let the evidence speak. Refuisng to accept the self-evident reality, refusing NOT ONLY faith in the God of the Bible, but also the evidences of a First Cause God that created and now sustains the viability of scientific laws, mathematical constants, etc. Christians accept the evidences, and also have teh "tails" side of the coin faith. But the "Heads" and the "Tails" are the two inseparable sides of a coin. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I would like to point out that Christians are also "unwilling theists" if we're talking about Zeus, Odin, Ra, etc. Food for thought....... This actually raises a very salient point that I WILL address here... again, your ability to so skillfully conceptualize and engage the argument is just more evidence for the existence of God. But ultimately, you misunderstand the argument. The argument for theism is a two sided coin - each side of the coin is unique to itself, but ultimately there is no such thing as a one sided coin - the two sides are inseparable. "Heads" of the theism argument says that given the existence of (1) the universe itself (2) life itself (3) mathematical constants (4) scientific laws (5) transcendant moral standards, the ONLY rational beleif is in the exisstence of A God. Atheism, even agnosticism, are IRrational. They say the 5 things I've enumerated have no causal explanation. That A God exists is self-evident, takes no faith at all, and the denial of A God is an irrational beleif. It denies the rationality of these 5 things. The "Tails" side of the argument says that the self evident existence of A God is explained by the God of the Bible - Jehovah, the LORD, the Creator of Genesis 1:1, the Saviour of John 3:16. THAT IS a matter of faith. So NO....Christians are NOT "unwilling theists, as they see the rationality of the "Heads" side of the argument. All Christians beleive A God exists - they are all theists. Only atheists / agnostics are "Unwilling theists" - refusing to let the evidence speak. Refuisng to accept the self-evident reality, refusing NOT ONLY faith in the God of the Bible, but also the evidences of a First Cause God that created and now sustains the viability of scientific laws, mathematical constants, etc. Christians accept the evidences, and also have teh "tails" side of the coin faith. But the "Heads" and the "Tails" are the two inseparable sides of a coin. Incorrect. I would argue that the universe, life, morals (from evolution) and math all COME FROM scientific laws.....that is a rational thought and provable via science. What you're doing here is using God to fill gaps. Your "tails" argument is irrational because you have now IGNORED the possibility of Zeus, Odin, Ra, etc from even existing. So yes, Christians are ALSO "unwilling theist." |
|
Quoted:
Incorrect. I would argue that the universe, life, morals (from evolution) and math all COME FROM scientific laws.....that is a rational thought and provable via science. What you're doing here is using God to fill gaps. Even if that were true (its not) where do scientific laws come from? All you have done is replace "A God" with "scientific laws" and made THEM to be God. An irrational, non-sentient, animistic, non-human God, but God nonetheless, and a God you have NOT accounted for the existence of. Ergo, you are a man of faith, and a theist. Its true, dude. You are a theist. Just unwilling to admit it. (AS well as unwilling to ascribe to the God of the Bible the glory due his name, by faith ). Your "tails" argument is irrational because you have now IGNORED the possibility of Zeus, Odin, Ra, etc from even existing. So yes, Christians are ALSO "unwilling theist." OK, I see what you are saying here. I am a theist, but unwilling to exhibit faith in Zeus. That is true. I lack the faith to beleive in Zeus, et al, but have faith in the God of teh Bible. In contrast, you are a theist, but unwilling to admit you are a theist. Unwilling to let the evidence speak. Unwilling to admit what is rationally self evident. That's the sense in which I am using the term. You are a self-deceive theist. I am a self aware theist. But the point here is that you are a theist. |
|
Quoted:
Even if that were true (its not) where do scientific laws come from? All you have done is replace "A God" with "scientific laws" and made THEM to be God. An irrational, non-sentient, animistic, non-human God, but God nonetheless, and a God you have NOT accounted for the existence of. Ergo, you are a man of faith, and a theist. Its true, dude. You are a theist. Just unwilling to admit it. (AS well as unwilling to ascribe to the God of the Bible the glory due his name, by faith ). I'm not sure WHERE the scintific laws came from, but it all started with the big bang. I just I would say that they are just a property of matter.... Studying scientifc laws and scienc doesnt make me a theist for science. If you look up the definition of theist, you will see you are in error here. OK, I see what you are saying here.
I am a theist, but unwilling to exhibit faith in Zeus. That is true. I lack the faith to beleive in Zeus, et al, but have faith in the God of teh Bible. In contrast, you are a theist, but unwilling to admit you are a theist. That's the sense in which I am using the term. You are a self-deceive theist. I am a self aware theist. I dont have faith in ANY God or Gods so how, by definition, can I be a theist? |
|
Quoted:
I would argue that the universe, life, morals (from evolution) and math all COME FROM scientific laws.....that is a rational thought and provable via science. How can you even begin to claim morals exist at all, much less come from evolution? If you were serious about this drivel, then you’d be arguing that cold-blooded murder, rape, incest, coveting, cheating, stealing, lying are all VERY USEFUL FOR THRIVING in the jungle of “survival-of-the-fittest” that is life on earth -according to evolution and pure biological laws! However, the very notion that those actions are known to be DETESTABLE SINS is because of our mutual knowledge of God and His standard of righteousness and holiness. The very fact that you acknowledge morality rather than promote the acting upon every possible physical and biological advantage and circumstance to advance your DNA and offspring is the surest way to prove garandman’s point. You don’t avoid cold-blooded murder, rape, incest, coveting, cheating, stealing, lying because you perceive doing those things will be detrimental to your biological success.... you avoid those things cause in your heart you know they are WRONG. That morality comes from God, not your biology! Humans are the only beings on earth with morality, wanna guess why that is!? |
|
Quoted:
I dont have faith in ANY God or Gods so how, by definition, can I be a theist? In this thread, you exhibited theistic faith that science / Big Bang causes morality, mathematical constants and caused the existence of both life and the universe. In the other thread, you exhibited theistic faith that DNA causes morality. You do exactly what Scripture says.... Romans 1:25 They worshipped and served what was created instead of the creator, who is forever praiseworthy! Amen. You are an unwilling theist. You are not willing to admit your theism. |
|
HoodyHoo -
I was thinking.... and really, my conversations with you are very instructive for me, personally.... not only are you a theist, you are a POLYtheist, based on yesterday and today's conversations. You worship many God's. Remember, to worship = to ascribe worth to something (etymologically, "worth-ship." ). Let's count out your God's. Where I ascribe worth to the Lord God as the originator of transcendant moral standards, you ascribe worth to DNA as the creator of transcendant morals. God # 1. Where I ascribe worth to the Lord God as the originator of the universe, you ascribe worth to the Big Bang as the creator of the universe. God # 2. Where I ascribe worth to the Lord God as the originator of scientific laws and mathematical constants, you ascribe worth to science as the creator of itself, and mathematical constants. God # 3. And of course, where I ascribe worth to the Lord God as wiser and more knowledgeable than I, you ascribe worth to yourself, and your own intellect, as the more reliable voice in observing and evaluating the world we live in. God # 4. I don't know if you have other God's that do the things I ascribe to the Lord God, but the fact is. ...your theism is greater than my own. When Christians were being persecuted by Nero and the Roman emperors, its interesting to note one of the main charge against them was atheism - they beleived in ONLY ONE God, the Lord God. They were considered atheists for rejecting the panorama of Roman and Greek Gods. So if there's any atheists in the world.... its us Christians.
|
|
Quoted:
Garandman posts his typical idiocy and the usual suspects (and a few I wouldn't have suspected) form a queue to intellectually fellate him. Yup its Friday. Nice insults against me and crass sexual reference re: others , Dino. Tells me I pretty well hit the mark. I hope you and your family are doing well. |
|
Quoted:
my bad, just noticed this was the religion forum. the rules are a bit stricter here The rules of human decency are universal, Dino. Speaking for myself, I don't hold to a hypocrisy that says I act one way in this forum and another in other forums. Nor do I play keyboard commando on the 'net, but act decently in person. (Disclaimer: I get these concepts from the Bible, which is from God, and not from religion, or from DNA, or from my own wisdom) |
|
Quoted: Quoted: my bad, just noticed this was the religion forum. the rules are a bit stricter here The rules of human decency are universal, Dino. Speaking for myself, I don't hold to a hypocrisy that says I act one way in this forum and another in other forums. Nor do I play keyboard commando on the 'net, but act decently in person. (Disclaimer: I get these concepts from the Bible, which is from God, and not from religion, or from DNA, or from my own wisdom) Like your original post in this thread, that is laughable. There are things that are appropriate for the bedroom that aren't appropriate for the local McDonalds. Yet, according to the great Garandman, that is hypocritical. Our world is full of dividing lines where the rules change. Arfcom is no different. I've never said anything to you on this board I wouldn't say to your face. I'd probably be a lot less cordial face to face actually and you'd hear a lot more f-bombs if you had the nerve to tell me my own beliefs. Hope you have a nice day Gman. Off to work. |
|
Quoted:
I'd probably be a lot less cordial face to face actually and you'd hear a lot more f-bombs if you had the nerve to tell me my own beliefs. Actually, I speak to the logical consequences / outgrowths of what you beleive. That's called "discussion." This IS a discussion forum. It is very noteworthy that all you've done thus far is insult me and other posters in this thread - you've done NOTHING to address the actual topic, or refute what I claim are the logical outgrowths of your beleifs. . Far as telling peopel what they believe - earlier today you TRIED to tell me what the Bible verse about "unequal yokes" means. (You missed badly) So your indignation here seems a bit hollow. We're we face to face, I would neither use nor need f-bombs to continue the discussion. Hope work went well, and you have a good weekend. |
|
Quoted: Quoted: I'd probably be a lot less cordial face to face actually and you'd hear a lot more f-bombs if you had the nerve to tell me my own beliefs. Actually, I speak to the logical consequences / outgrowths of what you beleive. That's called "discussion." This IS a discussion forum. It is very noteworthy that all you've done thus far is insult me and other posters in this thread - you've done NOTHING to address the actual topic, or refute what I claim are the logical outgrowths of your beleifs. . Far as telling peopel what they believe - earlier today you TRIED to tell me what the Bible verse about "unequal yokes" means. (You missed badly) So your indignation here seems a bit hollow. We're we face to face, I would neither use nor need f-bombs to continue the discussion. Hope work went well, and you have a good weekend. I stated that passage on unequal yokes was used in the past to speak out against interracial marriage. That is a statement of fact. If you want to get into a discussion on the interpretation of the verse, start a new thread and I'll be happy to post the standard interpretation as well as my personal interpretation. We can also discuss the various minority interpretations (such as it disallowing interracial marriage) |
|
Quoted:
I stated that passage on unequal yokes was used in the past to speak out against interracial marriage. That is a statement of fact. And I could cite the case of a atheist / agnostic who was a racist. NEITHER has ANYTHING to do with this debate, Your citation of the MISuse of the "unequal yoke" passage is illegitimate. And you need to stop. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'd probably be a lot less cordial face to face actually and you'd hear a lot more f-bombs if you had the nerve to tell me my own beliefs. Actually, I speak to the logical consequences / outgrowths of what you beleive. That's called "discussion." This IS a discussion forum. It is very noteworthy that all you've done thus far is insult me and other posters in this thread - you've done NOTHING to address the actual topic, or refute what I claim are the logical outgrowths of your beleifs. . Far as telling peopel what they believe - earlier today you TRIED to tell me what the Bible verse about "unequal yokes" means. (You missed badly) So your indignation here seems a bit hollow. We're we face to face, I would neither use nor need f-bombs to continue the discussion. Hope work went well, and you have a good weekend. Gentlemen, it pains me to see my inter-web friends personally attacking each other. Mocking each other is unavoidable...perhaps entertaining.... but lets mock based on bad theology and beliefs not personal character. Our theology and spirituality(or lack of) may be in conflict but we have the common ground of Patriotism.....and ar15.com. |
|
Quoted:
Gentlemen, it pains me to see my inter-web friends personally attacking each other. Mocking each other is unavoidable...perhaps entertaining.... but lets mock based on bad theology and beliefs not personal character. Our theology and spirituality(or lack of) may be in conflict but we have the common ground of Patriotism.....and ar15.com. Please cite where I have personally mocked or attacked Dino. I have scrupulously avoided just that. I have always considered Dino a brother in arms. |
|
Quoted: Quoted: I stated that passage on unequal yokes was used in the past to speak out against interracial marriage. That is a statement of fact. And I could cite the case of a atheist / agnostic who was a racist. NEITHER has ANYTHING to do with this debate, Your citation of the MISuse of the "unequal yoke" passage is illegitimate. And you need to stop. So if the facts don't fit your view, we need to not mention the facts? Interesting. |
|
Quoted:
So if the facts don't fit your view, we need to not mention the facts? Interesting. The relevant "fact" here is that the misuse of the "unequal yoke" text has ZERO legitimacy in the discussion of a Biblical position on interracial marraige. It doesn't belong in this conversation. .(Any formal debating forum would rule you out of order) What's intersting is that you admit its NOT a Biblical basis for dissallowing interracial marraige, yet you still inserted it into the discussion STOP DOING THAT. |
|
Quoted: The relevant "fact" here is that the misuse of the "unequal yoke" text has ZERO legitimacy in the discussion of a Biblical position on interracial marraige. It doesn't belong in this conversation. What's intersting is that you admit its NOT a Biblical basis for dissallowing interracial marraige, yet you still inserted it into the discussion. STOP DOING THAT. At one time, it was an opinion a lot of Christians would have agreed with. Misuse of Scripture can still result in negative effects for whoever its being used against. Who knows what the opinion of Christians in 100 years will be on homosexual marriage? Its possible Christians then will be just as offended if someone brings up the fact that a lot of Christians in 2010 believed scripture supports a ban on homosexual marriage. See how some might consider them to be related? My opinion of what the Bible says on interracial marriage or homosexual marriage. The opinion of the people who feel the Bible gives them justification for their actions are a lot more important. I don't think the Bible teaches what Fred Phelps says it teaches. That doesn't change the fact that he does believe it and we all get to see his flock at the funerals of soldiers as a result. My opinion of the validity of the use of "unequally yoked" in a discussion on interracial marriage has nothing to do with answering the question "how does interacial marriage gut lumped in with gay marraige???????????" Both have been spoken against by Christians with what they viewed as scriptural support. That is an explanation of how that question might come up in a thread titled "Interracial marriages,,,what does your church say?". As far as "inserting into the discussion" I answered a question that was asked in the thread. You're the guy who drug that discussion into this thread. Not me. I'm curious. You obviously think i have some ulterior motive for answering the question. What do you think it is? |
|
Quoted:
At one time, it was an opinion a lot of Christians would have agreed with. Misuse of Scripture can still result in negative effects for whoever its being used against. Who knows what the opinion of Christians in 100 years will be on homosexual marriage? Its possible Christians then will be just as offended if someone brings up the fact that a lot of Christians in 2010 believed scripture supports a ban on homosexual marriage. Ahhhh, I'm glad you worded it that way. It is IRRELEVANT as to what Christians OPINION is on a Scriptural matter. Some held a WRONG opinion of the "unequal yoke" The Word of God has a meaning INDEPENDENT of OPINION. It means what it means. And it clearly means that homosexuality is sin - even tho SOME who claim to be Christians claim homosexuality is NOT sin. Their opinion doesn't make them right. As far as "inserting into the discussion" I answered a question that was asked in the thread. You're the guy who drug that discussion into this thread. Not me. I'm curious. You obviously think i have some ulterior motive for answering the question. What do you think it is? If I'm learning anything in life, it is to NOT attempt to divine other peoples motives. Merely to speak to their actions, and the outgrowths / consequences / destination of their reasoning / logic. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted: I would argue that the universe, life, morals (from evolution) and math all COME FROM scientific laws.....that is a rational thought and provable via science. How can you even begin to claim morals exist at all, much less come from evolution? What do you mean? Are you suggesting that I should think morals DON"T exist? If you were serious about this drivel, then you’d be arguing that cold-blooded murder, rape, incest, coveting, cheating, stealing, lying are all VERY USEFUL FOR THRIVING in the jungle of “survival-of-the-fittest” that is life on earth -according to evolution and pure biological laws!
Lets take nature for example, apes (as our closest relatives) live together perfectly fine. They do on occasion kill each other (so do humans), they do on occasion steal (so do humans), not sure about the cheating and lying stuff, but you get the point. Even with all this religion, humans still revert back to their instinct and cheat, steal, lie, etc. If you were to actually look in depth at what "survival of the fittest means, you would see that it's not the "biggest/strongest." However, the very notion that those actions are known to be DETESTABLE SINS is because of our mutual knowledge of God and His standard of righteousness and holiness.
No it's not. It's in your DNA......came from evolution. I suppose I could even say that this God or mutual knowledge you mentioned is actually knowledge gained through evolution. Think about it, why does virtually every culture ON THIS EARTH frown upon the things mentioned...even though they don't believe in your god? The very fact that you acknowledge morality rather than promote the acting upon every possible physical and biological advantage and circumstance to advance your DNA and offspring is the surest way to prove garandman’s point .
How so? You don’t avoid cold-blooded murder, rape, incest, coveting, cheating, stealing, lying because you perceive doing those things will be detrimental to your biological success.... you avoid those things cause in your heart you know they are WRONG.
True. Some of it is perceived to be wrong through instinct, and some is learned. That morality comes from God, not your biology! Humans are the only beings on earth with morality, wanna guess why that is!?
False on BOTH accounts here. |