Posted: 5/30/2009 7:51:39 PM EDT
| I've heard before that most 4 wheel drives are not true four wheel drives. While International Scouts and trucks run a real four wheel drive, that is power to all four tires, while most 4wd just get two power tires one on the front and the back? How close am I to being correct? Also If I was to build a daily driver/ occasional wheeler in the mud/snow would it be better to order one already built, as in a used one that someone has spent the money on and took depriciation on build my own, from a stock say jeep wrangler, because depricitiation doesn't really happen to specilaized cars? If it does how much can one expect to lose on a specialied jeep with say, skid plates, warn winch, sound bar speakers, several tops, lockers etc? |
| So, I am assuming that IH have limited slip, or perhaps even lockers, perhaps posi trac and quadara trac as Jeeps have? So if a typical truck with 4wd has open diffs it is essentially a 2wd, while limited slip is better perhaps 2.5-3 and lockers, either auto or manual is power to all four wheels? Am I correct? |
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Are you looking to get a Scout or just general questions? Here's a rundown that might help.There's really no 2/3.5/4WD - all wheels get power if there's a center diff (4WD) - how it is distributed matter in situations of low traction. .
Many vehicles have/had LSDs or Torsens in the center or rear axle diffs standard - some optional. A very few had fronts optional, and fewer still had lockers either at any spot. You have three diffs in a common 4wd system - center diff that accepts the power from the transmission and distributes it to two or more axles. You find some solutions in all three axles Center Diffs Part Time 4WD In many cases the Center diff is selectable - called part time 4wd. When engaged the front and rear axles are locked together - but not necessarily each whel on an axle. The issues is, speed differences fron to rear cause the drivetrain to bind - creating stress on the system like a spring - unless there's intermittent slippage to - so usable only where there slipage - wet, snow, dirt. But dry tarmac will damages the drivline if 4WD is selected. Theres variations on this - but that's what Cornbinders have - IIRC TC143 and TC145 which is a two speed. Full Time 4WD The transmission directs power to a center diff - so now you have an open diff allowing power to be moved front ot rear so there is no issue with driveline bind and 4WD operates at all times. Above both axles receive power regardless. With a center diff, axles with less traction cause issues. Most center diffs - even Audis early Quattro include a manual lock tp avoid this. Bias Differentials LSD: are basically clutches or viscous couplings (as Toyota and others have used in some apps - mainly AWD passenger cars so we'll deal with clutch types). They are active and requiring no driver input - but require resistance to both wheels. If you have a wheel in the air or create a trough with 1 wheek - it will not operate. They are not as abrupt and do not impart directional changes in use - as lockers can. Torsens: are seen in a few high end SUVs center diffs - GX470, . - and a handful of axles - often in hi-perf applications such as the Miata and Audis - and AM General H1. They are basically a gearset that performs the function of a LSD. In both cases you can sometimes activate locking by applying the brakes and accelerator simultaneously. Results vary. Active This is new - a computer sensor notes slippage and brakes that particular wheel - so power is transferred to the others. Works fairly well. MB, Toyota few others use it. Lockers This is a system that forces both wheels to "lock" as if there is not differential - just a solid axle so both wheels turn regardless of traction. This is fine for the rears - but can create steering issues up front as the tires want to turn at the same revolutions over different distances. This lead to wheels hop, chirping, induced understeer and abrupt steering movements if up front. You get this in the back in sharp turning on SWB esp - but its livable. You can avoid this if using selectable (they are on or off) or with a locker in the front if you have manual hubs - disconnect the front axle and you have no front power so no issues with control - traction is another matter. Lincoln, Fozzy Lockers and Spools - these both lock the diffs permanently - Lincolns by welding the Carrier (Lincoln Welding hence the name)
Fozzy lockers are created by locking spider and side gears with a removable piece - so its permanent- until you take it out
Spools are just a Ring and Pinion with a solid center.
Automatic Lockers - breaks down into two kinds - Lunchbox (Aussie, Lockrite) where the spider and perhaps the side gears are replaced by a locking mechanism.
Detroit NoSpin/Soft Locker, GMs Govlok - the entire carrier is replaces. It never allows the wheel to turn slower than the diff so locks in low traction across the axle
Selectable Lockers - although the method of locking is different, basically all the same. You "lock" your axles through some mechanism. So You have full lock when needed and none when you dont. Good used up front as it only actuate on your terms. Air Lockers - ARB, MacNamara, MaxiDrive - uses on board compressed air or vacuum to actuate the diff locker
Eleactric Lockers - Toyota, Eaton, Jeep - Uses and electric solenoid to lock
Cable Lockers - Ox, KAM - uses a mechanical cable that locks
Manual Housing Controls - MacNamara IIRC - you turn a bolt on the housing
Hydraulic - Pinzguaer
AFAIK Scouts were all Part time 4WD - so when you select 4WD you have locked power front to rear. IH offered 2 LSDs - PowerLok and TracLok - one was before the other. I don't recall any Scouts getting full lockers. So I dont believe any Scouts had stock "lockers". This all becomes an issue when your tries lose traction- sometimes due to surface but often due to lack of articulation, If both tires can maintain contact, its traction loss across the axle much less an issue. This truck is rarely stuck (even I haven't done so - and I can crap anything up) - although both front and rear are Lincoln'd. Regardless both fronts have some purchase, so you more traction (two contact surfaces) and power to both. Why lockers and articulation is important and work hand in hand. But to some extent you can get away with one or the other. 
Here's where a true locker is necessary - a crossaxled situation due to lack of articulation. Without one front and rear wheel having traction it receives the power - so no go.. 
There are some vehicles that have - off hand some Toyota Land Cruiser 80s have manual E-lockers for both axles and center, Steyr Pinzgauer had 6 wheeled versions - you could lock rear two seats of axles and engage the front and lock that axle as well. There's others. This isnt to denigrate the Scout - great vehicle - and easy enough to lock one up. Very easy to do this to them - and you have on hell of a crawler. 
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Awesome post Alac!
The only vehicles I know of on the market right now that have selectable lockers front and rear are: Jeep wrangler rubicon Dodge Ram 2500 powerwagon (has 12K lb warn winch also) 
Hummer H3 or H3T with offroad suspension Mercedes-Benz G class There might be more, but I don't know about them. |
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Awesome post Alac! There might be more, but I don't know about them. Landcruiser has selectable front rear and center locks. Maybe the Lexus version too? When Toyota went to a IFS I believe this option went out the window. I believe they offered a rear locker only after that along with the center diff lock. |
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Awesome post Alac! There might be more, but I don't know about them. Landcruiser has selectable front rear and center locks. Maybe the Lexus version too? Thx Saturn no idea how I missed the Rub Used - that's what id buy for a competent DD wheeler The Lexus never got triple or even dual lockers. Late LX may have Torsen somwhere can't recall Late model 80s had the optional triiple, 98-99 100s had optional rears Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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How are ford broncos for wheelers, if i was to add lockers up front and rear? How much time would it take? Does an auto vs man. have any difference in the wheeling capability? Thanks Everyone BTW great posts The better question: What are you looking to do with a daily driven 4wd? Be as specific as you can. Do you need a p/u so you can haul stuff or do you need something with 4 doors and a back seat? What about fuel economy? My '79 CJ-7 gets 10mpg if I'm lucky, my '85 Toyota 4wd p/u will pull 20mpg on the highway, my '00 Dodge CTD 4wd 3/4 ton p/u gets 16mpg. All three of my 4wds have manual transmissions because I prefer a manual - however, there are times/places an automatic would be better. Brian |
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Pretty good as long as I have tools. Well on occasion I would haul stuff, but mostly for going out camping, driving in town/freeways, perhaps a little snow driving, beach driving, mudding, and fording water perhaps 3 feet or less on occasion. Problem is, front lockers SUCK in the snow and on the road. Rear lockers suck even, if you're in a SWB vehicle, due to the "ratcheting" feeling they create. They can cause some unpredictable behavior in the snow too, if you're not familiar with driving a locked axle around in snow. Unfortunately there's no perfect truck for all tasks. I'd look into a fullsize Blazer or Bronco, from the mid-70's to '91. With a rear locker, mild lift and good tires you'll have a fairly capable rig for little money that you'd still be able to tow with. You won't start breaking the Ford 8.8/D44 or the Chevy 8.5/Corp. 10 unless you're playing hard with big tires. The Ford edges out over the Blazer IMO, the 8.8 is stronger than the 8.5, and the C6 auto seems to stand up to abuse a bit better then the 700R4 does. But if you get a Blazer with a 14-bolt SF and TH400 you'd be better off than the Bronc. I knock D44's in rear applications, but up front they're more then capable with some sense and tires under 37", depending on the weight of the vehicle they're under. |
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Pretty good as long as I have tools. Well on occasion I would haul stuff, but mostly for going out camping, driving in town/freeways, perhaps a little snow driving, beach driving, mudding, and fording water perhaps 3 feet or less on occasion. Based on that - You don't have need for much extreme. DC makes good points - esp Fullsize Blazer or Bronco, both good candidates - but everything is a compromise. Large = poor economy (figure 10/15mpg), but good space and towing. I'd do a little research on vehicles - characteristics, durability, reliability, - weigh them against your needs, skills and budget, then go from there. On lockers - why selectables make sense - there when you need them, no downside when turned off. The Rubicon has one of the best setups factory - Selectable Air Lockers and gear type LSDs when unlocked. The new Detroit Locker - SofLocker - does away with much of the issue of the previous Detroit (bangs and jolts). Plenty of people live with Detroits, even Lincoln'd rears - much has to do with driving style and wheelbase - longer =better. Need to be careful getting on throttle during turns and tight radius on tar. You also need to give attention to the axles if they are fragile - if you break an axle, most often wipes the locker as well. I like Detroits in the rear, but may not be practical for you. You may not even need locked - lockers are useful but not absolutely necessary. Before I locked something I'd get a good winch and know how to use it. As far as your original question, if the work is done correctly and you can determine the quality, buying something that's built is almost always cheaper. Better? Depends on what you want and what you find - and how much you want to put into it. Lot of Bronco/Blazer owners on here - hopefully some will chime in. |
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Soooo how is my brother's? Is it real?
As real as you can get on those little ass toyota axles!!  LMAO - DIdnt you know TZL - Bobby Long has cured all ills. They are trussed Seriously I think the new threshold for real is 54's.
TZL - can you post your Jeep - might give the OP some direction and I could use a fix. |
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I vote k5!
Pic whore time! Mine posing on the ramp. I can't see the pics from work, but I think I cut and pasted from the right thread. 
I was in between a Scout and Blazer, ended up with a Blazer because it is what I found for the right price first. When I got it, it had a 2 inch lift on 33s and the stock 10bolts. I swapped in a 12bolt and regeared to 4.10s and 35s. Lock rite in the front and welded the rear. The rear lasted two tests in the local mud hole and grenaded about 4 miles from a trail ride at URE. Swapped in some new spiders in the parking lot and took it easy all weekend. Had to weld the cover back together too. Now I'm on D60/14Bolt Detroit on 37's. The detroit is much better than welded I hurried to get these swapped in before I left and didn't get a chance to do much more than ride a friends back 40 before I left. I have plans for a lock rite in the 60, 39-40s, and a different spring set up when I get back.
The Blazers are easy to upgrade. Axle swaps are common and most bolt right up from the heavier trucks. One ton gear from M1008s is readily availble with 4.56s, Detroits and some had Trac-locks in the front. Quoted:
Richer, braver, and more skilled than I am.... 
Nice pics. Hey there is a pile of rocks! I think I'll go drive over them! That is a sick Rubi! Nice tons!! 
Saturn are you on NC4x4 or Wheelindixie? We'll have to hit URE for some mild rocks when I get back. |
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I'm going to URE in about 2 weeks.
There is supposed to be a bunch of jeeps there, and I'll be the only dumbass without one. My ZR2 did fine its first time out there, and it was fun, so I'm going again. I'm not on any of those 4x4 boards.... I think in the past when I checked them out, they were a bit too hardcore for me. |
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Figure what the intent of the 4Xing that you want to do. Full time all wheel drive locked up on the pavement is just a waste of gas and tire wear. But on the trail is FTW!
I have built up a Toy Truck that got totaled on the road that had Detroit lockers F & R, and plan on making it a trail only truck now. The best 4 wheeling trucks on the trail and also for the street seem to be the ones that are built and done by the owner. That way, the owner knows how to do repairs and usually can diagnose problems with the rig when something is wrong! as long as the owner is mechanically inclined. This does help a lot on knowing your 4 wheeling vehicle! |
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Figure what the intent of the 4Xing that you want to do. Full time all wheel drive locked up on the pavement is just a waste of gas and tire wear. But on the trail is FTW! I have built up a Toy Truck that got totaled on the road that had Detroit lockers F & R, and plan on making it a trail only truck now. The best 4 wheeling trucks on the trail and also for the street seem to be the ones that are built and done by the owner. That way, the owner knows how to do repairs and usually can diagnose problems with the rig when something is wrong! as long as the owner is mechanically inclined. This does help a lot on knowing your 4 wheeling vehicle! Very true. Hokey as it sounds, you do learn your own rig and all it's quirks when you build it up yourself. |