[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Jeep Engine Swap (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 2/5/2011 6:38:51 AM EDT
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New to the whole Jeep scene and I'm interested in which direction Jeepers are going with engine swaps.
My hope was I'd find a lot of people swapping in small, torque diesels. Any one here running a non-stock powerplant? |
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Small diesels are hard to do, unless you can find both a host that will accept one and donor that originally took one stock (generally late model vehicles, with domestic or European donor cars that came with the Mercedes-built 3.1 TDs). There are a few folks who've done Cummins 4/6's, but they're generally nighmares from everything I've seen.
The Jeep I6 (AMC or Chrysler) develops in excess of 300 ft.lbs at a useable RPM. While it's gas and milage suffers, there's not a whole lot of other down sides to a gas engine that will develop that kind of torque and last just as long as a small diesel (300k mi +) with care. |
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Small diesels are hard to do, unless you can find both a host that will accept one and donor that originally took one stock (generally late model vehicles, with domestic or European donor cars that came with the Mercedes-built 3.1 TDs). There are a few folks who've done Cummins 4/6's, but they're generally nighmares from everything I've seen. The Jeep I6 (AMC or Chrysler) develops in excess of 300 ft.lbs at a useable RPM. While it's gas and milage suffers, there's not a whole lot of other down sides to a gas engine that will develop that kind of torque and last just as long as a small diesel (300k mi +) with care. Neither the jeep 4.2 or 4.0 make anywhere near 300ft lbs. Both engines max out at just over 200 ftlbs This will make other fans foam at the mouth but the 4.0 is a turd in a jeep like mine with soft tires, lockers and lots of armor and recovery even with 4.10 cogs |
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It's amazing to me with all the great oil burners on the market that Chrysler hasn't just licensed the VW TDI or similar and mated it to a quality transmission.
I've seen TDI swaps, but they are running @ 16k. Too rich for my blood. http://www.hpamotorsports.com/TDI-YJ-AX5.htm DT |
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This will make other fans foam at the mouth but the 4.0 is a turd in a jeep like mine with soft tires, lockers and lots of armor and recovery even with 4.10 cogs How much does your Jeep weigh? IIRC you are running some fairly large tires - why are you running 4.10s? I have 33s on my CJ-7 and I run 4.10s.......... With curb weight of ~4000 lbs. I was a bit surprised at the weight but I have a 304 V8, T-18/D-20, Currie 9inch axles front/rear and hard doors/top. Brian |
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The 4.0 isn't a bad engine. You can definitely get a lot more performance out of it if you are willing to spend the money.
BMW has a 2.0L diesel that puts out 200/200 or so. In a TJ on 35s that would be enough power. You'd just have to be careful to keep it light. |
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This will make other fans foam at the mouth but the 4.0 is a turd in a jeep like mine with soft tires, lockers and lots of armor and recovery even with 4.10 cogs How much does your Jeep weigh? IIRC you are running some fairly large tires - why are you running 4.10s? I have 33s on my CJ-7 and I run 4.10s.......... With curb weight of ~4000 lbs. I was a bit surprised at the weight but I have a 304 V8, T-18/D-20, Currie 9inch axles front/rear and hard doors/top. Brian I'm only on 31"s right now pending 33" I've added a few things that probably puts my jeep in the 3800lb range (it last scaled for 3500) A 4.0 in a 3000lb xj will fly, but as you pile on the lbs in a wrangler the 4.0's torque shortcomings become glaringly evident |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This will make other fans foam at the mouth but the 4.0 is a turd in a jeep like mine with soft tires, lockers and lots of armor and recovery even with 4.10 cogs How much does your Jeep weigh? IIRC you are running some fairly large tires - why are you running 4.10s? I have 33s on my CJ-7 and I run 4.10s.......... With curb weight of ~4000 lbs. I was a bit surprised at the weight but I have a 304 V8, T-18/D-20, Currie 9inch axles front/rear and hard doors/top. Brian I'm only on 31"s right now pending 33" I've added a few things that probably puts my jeep in the 3800lb range (it last scaled for 3500) A 4.0 in a 3000lb xj will fly, but as you pile on the lbs in a wrangler the 4.0's torque shortcomings become glaringly evident IIRC, the 4.0 can be bored and stroked out to 4.7 or 5.0 liters. A manifold is apparently available to add a turbo. |
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Stroked 4.0's all suffer from the same fatal flaw. Really bad rod angles! So much so that I don't think I've heard if one go much more than 40k before it's absolutely drinking oil and issuing fourth huge amounts of blowby
I would SC a 4.o before I'd turbo it, but again by the time I went through all the engine management trouble to boost the 6 I could have done a complete 5.3 swap. Dont get me wrong the 4.0 is a good motor (I've owned 4) but Im tiring of folks acting like it's some powerhouse that puts out all the power a 4000lb 4x4 with gummy tires and the aerodynamics of a waffle house needs. At best I'd say that the 4.0 in a wrangler is marginally adequate, to that end I decided to keep mine......for now.... |
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I'd use a Hesco head before I did anything major... Nice http://www.hesco.us/forsale_s.asp?action=details&inventoryID=44312&catId=7755 $1,995 The stock 4.0L valve sizes have been retained but the head comes with performance valve springs. The rocker bosses will accept either the stock rocker arms and pivots, or roller rockers. The valve cover mating surface has been raised so it will not be necessary to use a valve cover spacer when installing roller rockers. The most unique feature of the cylinder head is the push rod holes have been enlarged to allow the lifters to be retrieved without removing the head. Camshaft changes will be a snap instead of a half a day ordeal. |
| Honestly, I can't see the benefit of dropping a diesel in a Jeep versus simply using a stroker I6. Most all of the stroker engines are making some very respectable torque, and dropping one in a Jeep (specifically one with an I6) is TONS easier than any diesel conversion. |
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Honestly, I can't see the benefit of dropping a diesel in a Jeep versus simply using a stroker I6. Most all of the stroker engines are making some very respectable torque, and dropping one in a Jeep (specifically one with an I6) is TONS easier than any diesel conversion. Yeah - I'm beginning to get the picture. Looks good on paper - but if it was easy or superior, the free market would be fat with them. Maybe a small block V8 with a supercharger! |
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What about the 4BT? Say it with me EIGHT HUNDRED POUNDS You'd need a big increase in torque / hp to off set the weight increase. Thanks for the 4BT suggession - lots of info here. http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/index.php |
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The 4BT is a common diesel conversion for the Jeep platform, but is labor intensive. Do a search on google, and you'll see this is not a conversion for the average Joe. The amount of fabrication involved in this conversion is unreal, but seems to be worth it for those who've accomplished it. Me, as I stated in my previous post, see no benefit to it over a stroker I6. A stroker is a drop-in conversion for any Jeep with a six cylinder, and requires little to no fabrication. The 4BT? Not so much. Plus, with diesel 25 cents higher than gas right now, I don't see the point. You'll pay more for fuel, more for the conversion, typically more for the engine, without much increase in torque and maybe minimal improvement in fuel economy. Plus, you have to consider the additional noise and vibration associated with an old-school diesel.
Even if a shop offered to drop a 4BT in my YJ for the same price as a stoker six cylinder, I'd still say no. |
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For power, reliability, and fuel economy in a Jeep Wrangler: Nothing beats a fresh 4.0L I6 or a decent Chevy 350 or 383 V8.
The 4.0 is a darn good engine. No need to stroke it and lose a ton of reliability compared to the $$$ needed for a stroked short block. The strokers are grenades and will just leave you stranded offroad. the diesels are too weak and heavy ruining any kind off mud or soft sand performance. Too expensive and labor intesnsive to swap in a diesel anyway. If you can swap in a fresh GM 350 or 383 and be road legal thats the way to go. As long as your state has no E check then just drop in a carb'd 350. Stand alone fuel injected 350's are available as crates if your laws require keeping FI if your Jeep is allready FI. There are simple bellhousings that allow you to mate the AX15 trans right to the back of the 350. 300 horsepower is plenty for a Jeep, and the big V8's don't break a sweat hauling a little Jeep uphill so your fuel economy is actually better than the 4.0L. |
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taking parts from the older jeep 4.2L inline 6 makes a pretty easy stroker out of the stock 4.0 and thats probably the most common upgrade. otherwise I see lots of people swapping in the LS series motors from GM. One guy on NAXJA is doing a toyota supra turbo 2JZGTE swap. |
(I'll check it out)
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Neither the jeep 4.2 or 4.0 make anywhere near 300ft lbs. Both engines max out at just over 200 ftlbs You're right. I probably should have added the caveat "when modified" Stock at the flywheel on the 4.0 is ~ 240 ft.lbs. With some fairly minor mods (i.e.intake, exhaust, a decent head, injectors, and a chip - no stroking or supercharging required), 280 can be done both realistically and a heluva lot cheaper than a diesel swap, while maintaining reliability. Stroked or supercharged, the numbers push over 300, but reliability/longevity will suffer. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Neither the jeep 4.2 or 4.0 make anywhere near 300ft lbs. Both engines max out at just over 200 ftlbs You're right. I probably should have added the caveat "when modified" Stock at the flywheel on the 4.0 is ~ 240 ft.lbs. With some fairly minor mods (i.e.intake, exhaust, a decent head, injectors, and a chip - no stroking or supercharging required), 280 can be done both realistically and a heluva lot cheaper than a diesel swap, while maintaining reliability. Stroked or supercharged, the numbers push over 300, but reliability/longevity will suffer. Measuring horsepower at the flywheel is so misleading, especially on a 4x4. As for supercharging a JK, that is new and relatively untested territory. So you can't make claims of reliability and reduced longevity about them. |
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Measuring horsepower at the flywheel is so misleading, especially on a 4x4. I was going off the torque numbers as I remembered them, all of which were measured at the flywheel. As for supercharging a JK, that is new and relatively untested territory. So you can't make claims of reliability and reduced
longevity about them. We were talking about AMC/Chrysler Jeep 4.2/4.0 inline six cylinder engines as an alternative to a diesel swap. AFAIK, no one mentioned the JK, and the JK was never available with a 4.0 (discontinued in 2005, IIRC). |
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Quoted: Quoted: Measuring horsepower at the flywheel is so misleading, especially on a 4x4. I was going off the numbers as I remembered them, all of which are measured at the flywheel. As for supercharging a JK, that is new and relatively untested territory. So you can't make claims of reliability and reduced longevity about them. We were talking about AMC/Chrysler Jeep 4.2/4.0 inline six cylinder engines as an alternative to a diesel swap. AFAIK, no one mentioned the JK, and the JK was never available with a 4.0 (discontinued in 2005, IIRC). Again Flywheel horsepower is misleading and should not be mentioned. That is the underhanded way auto manufactures advertise. Real world HP is measured at the wheels. It is quite lower than flywheel HP due to drive line loss. The JK has been mentioned in the thread and the OP never specified what model he was talking about. |
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Quoted: The only logical engine to put in a JK is the Hemi. The 3.8L would actually be a cool swap into a TJ. A while back I was curious about the 4bt. That thing sounds very loud in the videos. That would drive me crazy. The cost of the hemi would get me kicked out of the house, the supercharger seems to be the practical way to do it. They are starting to install them on the JK's. I am watching to see how they work. A mild boost to add about 50hp would be more than enough. The 3.6 pentastar is another possibility after they start putting them in the JK's |
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Quoted: Not trying to highjack... I have one question. I'm on the market to buy a Wrangler Unlimited 4door and noticed that they come with a V6 engine. Is it worse than the I6 that comes in some 2door models? Are there 4doors with the I6? No I6 in the JKU. The 3.8 makes a little more power than the 4.0. The dyno power curves between the 2 engines are right on top of each other until the 4.0 runs out of power and the 3.8 goes a little farther. The thing to look out for is gearing, you want to get 3.73 gears, 4.10 is better but only comes in the Rubicon. Jeep is supposed to release the 3.6 pentastar sometime the the semi near future. It has more power than the 3.8. |
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Measuring horsepower at the flywheel is so misleading, especially on a 4x4. I was going off the numbers as I remembered them, all of which are measured at the flywheel. As for supercharging a JK, that is new and relatively untested territory. So you can't make claims of reliability and reduced
longevity about them. We were talking about AMC/Chrysler Jeep 4.2/4.0 inline six cylinder engines as an alternative to a diesel swap. AFAIK, no one mentioned the JK, and the JK was never available with a 4.0 (discontinued in 2005, IIRC). Again Flywheel horsepower is misleading and should not be mentioned. That is the underhanded way auto manufactures advertise. Real world HP is measured at the wheels. It is quite lower than flywheel HP due to drive line loss. Banditman, I think I was clear. What I mentioned was torque, and the numbers that I remembered and posted happen to be measured at the flywheel. Since the subject is "Jeep engines" and there are a lot of other factors involved getting an accurate number at the wheels, flywheel numbers just might be appropriate. We all understand there's a driveline loss... or are you suggesting that dyno numbers for a single model engine across all Jeep platforms will be identical when measured at the wheels? The JK has been mentioned in the thread and the OP never specified what model he was talking about.
You are primarily the only person who's been talking about the JK (in the first response on page one, and your subsequent responses to me). You're right, the OP never specified. Drsalee mentioned a supercharger kit for the JK above, but again, the 4.0 wasn't ever an option on the JK. |
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What kind of Jeep are you looking at. There is a pretty nice supercharger kit out there for the new JKs. Check out: jkforum.com It's an excellent question. Right now I'm leaning toward a TJ with some miles - which got me thinking, if the power-plant goes, do you replace with something better (Larger, Forced Induction, Oil Burner) or a rebuild of the current engine? |
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What kind of Jeep are you looking at. There is a pretty nice supercharger kit out there for the new JKs. Check out: jkforum.com It's an excellent question. Right now I'm leaning toward a TJ with some miles - which got me thinking, if the power-plant goes, do you replace with something better (Larger, Forced Induction, Oil Burner) or a rebuild of the current engine? Now that you've specified that your looking at TJs, what are you planning on doing with it? Daily driver with some off-road? Weekend mud toy? Trailer it over to the Rubicon? Rock-crawling at Moab? It will have a profound effect on what you'll want to do with the engine. How many miles? If it isn't abused, the I6 will last as a DD with some weekend play. Mine (a 2000) is at 215k and counting, and has been neglected pretty much all of its life. ETA: I did have to change out the waterpump when the fan clutch went @ ~180k, but other than that, an oil/filter evry 10k, and one set of plugs every 50k or so kept it humming along nicely. |
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What kind of Jeep are you looking at. There is a pretty nice supercharger kit out there for the new JKs. Check out: jkforum.com It's an excellent question. Right now I'm leaning toward a TJ with some miles - which got me thinking, if the power-plant goes, do you replace with something better (Larger, Forced Induction, Oil Burner) or a rebuild of the current engine? Now that you've specified that your looking at TJs, what are you planning on doing with it? Daily driver with some off-road? Weekend mud toy? Trailer it over to the Rubicon? Rock-crawling at Moab? It will have a profound effect on what you'll want to do with the engine. How many miles? If it isn't abused, the I6 will last as a DD with some weekend play. Mine (a 2000) is at 215k and counting, and has been neglected pretty much all of its life. Some weekend hunting, snow mud. Primarily trails. Nothing too extreme (Moab) It's amazing the number of miles guys are getting our of their Jeeps (215k !!) DT |
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Some weekend hunting, snow mud. Primarily trails. Nothing too extreme (Moab) My advice would be to put a good set of tires on and run it stock. Some light armor and recovery gear wil get you though an awful lot. It's a Jeep*. If you get bitten by the bug enough to modify, you'll probably spend more time & money on suspention, driveline, armor, and recovery than you will on the engine. It's amazing the number of miles guys are getting our of their Jeeps (215k !!)
There are guys out there with 300k + on their 4.0s *crosses fingers* Sign up to ask questions or just lurk over at jeepforum.com for a bit. You'll learn more than you ever need to know if you're paying attention, and it will probably suck up just as much of your time as Arfcom. Jeeps are an awful lot like ARs; easily upgradeable/modified by someone with a modicum of mechanical ability, but quite capable bone-stock. *Then again, I use torque numbers measured at the flywheel. 
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This guy put a Cummins B3.3 in a Jeep
http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/showthread.php?t=112807 Lighter and shorter height than a 4BT. The only huge disadvantage I see is that there aren't many used ones out there, so you have to buy new from Cummins. About 5000. |
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Quoted: Banditman, I think I was clear. What I mentioned was torque, and the numbers that I remembered and posted happen to be measured at the flywheel. Since the subject is "Jeep engines" and there are a lot of other factors involved getting an accurate number at the wheels, flywheel numbers just might be appropriate. We all understand there's a driveline loss... or are you suggesting that dyno numbers for a single model engine across all Jeep platforms will be identical when measured at the wheels? Well you can pull your engine out to get it dynoed, for the rest of use that is not practical  . Yes were are talking jeep engines and I hope you realize thatis what provides the power to the drive train and wheels. I do not suggest that all drivelines have the same power loss. I have an auto JK and it has less driveline loss than an auto TJ. But remember again that were are in the real world and rear wheel HP and Torque is measured at the wheels and not at the crank. When I am going to do performance mods I get a baseline dyno figure and then get another to see how much I effected the power or power curve. Others can use this info as a reference if they have a comparable spec'd vehicle. The JK has been mentioned in the thread and the OP never specified what model he was talking about. You are primarily the only person who's been talking about the JK (in the first response on page one, and your subsequent responses to me). You're right, the OP never specified. Drsalee mentioned a supercharger kit for the JK above, but again, the 4.0 wasn't ever an option on the JK. Never said it was an option in a JK. The topic was engines, not just the 4.0. |