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Posted: 11/21/2002 7:05:58 PM EDT
I'll be getting a new system soon and I'll have a chance to upgrade(my current system isn't connected to the internet - long story, my dad uses it for work - so to get files, etc, I've been using a zip drive as a file bridge from school, which absolutely sucks). Solution is simply getting a laptop so I can pick up the damn thing, go onto campus and use the lan. I'm currently running Red Hat 7.3 because it's what I happened to have on hand. I'm looking at something a bit less "refined." I'm in no way looking simply for a windows replacement. Something I can really poke around and get my hands dirty. Towards that end, I'm considering debian or slackware. I've heard interesting things about BSD but have no experience with them. What am I looking to do? Stuff I need on a daily basis is simply text editing - lots of emacs supported by latex and xpdf. Would be nice if I could get my palm to sync correctly(then I could shut off windows full-time). I'm not running a server anytime soon and I don't do any massive collaborative programming(yet!). Mostly, I just want to poke around and tinker - to learn the nuts and bolts of the system. Let's not turn this into a flame war(though this board could use some life!). I'm looking for your opinions and like assholes, everyone has one. *grin* Hmm, maybe we can make this a monthly thing - rival the ak vs. ar-15 fights.
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 7:21:31 PM EDT
I hope I never get into a gunfight over distro's [:D] Slackware is my favourite Linux distribution now. Installation is a notch or two more troublesome than RedHat's, but is hardly as complicated as Debian. Slackware gives me [by default without tweaking] a nice modern command line interface with colors for different file types, and most of the tools I use. OpenBSD is my suggestion for a BSD distro for a first timer or for a server.
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 7:30:51 PM EDT
Well, I am sure you saw my post on Redhat. But, putting that aside... OpenBSD is pretty good. However, if you've got an Intel system and really want to throw yourself to the wolves, install Solaris 8 (Intel Version) and hold on. I don't know much about slackware, but I've heard good things from others.
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 7:43:01 PM EDT
Depends on your level of skill. If you like to have everything done for you in a nice pretty configuration utilities and don't mind someone else telling you how you should compute stick with redhat. They have traditionally supported more bleeding edge hardware than anyone else. I'm a RHCE and I personally hate it. Even after taking all their classes and passing their test. I use slackware. I find slackware's init scheme to be very straight forward. I like the way there aren't alot of pretty config utilities that can break and then you have no idea how to do it under the surface. I like the way that almost all the config files are extensively commented and you seldom have to do anything but read them and uncomment stuff to make stuff work. It is a really good platform if you want to actually learn stuff. If Patrick Volkerding isn't a teacher or something, he missed his calling. There's always debian. I have a bunch of students that prefer it. Not really sure why. The guys in my Unix group that I meet with every wednesday all seem to be falling in love with some new distro in which NOTHING comes pre compiled. I can't remember what it's called though. Sounds pretty massochistic to me.
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 8:04:08 PM EDT
You want to roll up your sleeves and get your hands dirty. Try [url=http://www.gentoo.org/]Gentoo[/url] This is a distro that you build/compile as you go. Best if you can hook the unit to broadband during the build, but you can work from ISO's or tarballs building from within your existing RH install. You will learn... but it does take time.
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 10:26:23 PM EDT
mmx1, if you want to play around with Debian, the best way I found is to download the so-called mini-cd. It's at: [url]www.phy.olemiss.edu/debian-cd/[/url] It contains most things you need and is only 186 Mbytes. That's positively tiny compared to RedHat 8.0. It will even fit on a 3" CD just in case you want something really small to carry around. If there's something not on the CD, there's enough there to get you up and going so you can install it using apt-get. The best thing about Debian is that you typically only install it on a machine once. From then on, you can use apt-get to easily upgrade. I'm sure it's obvious, but the official site is at [url]www.debian.org[/url]. If you have a specific question about Debian, my e-mail is zoom@upstate.net.z
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 10:33:37 PM EDT
I recommend Mandrake for beginners to intermediate. For advanced users, I would say Slackware.
Link Posted: 11/22/2002 3:26:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ProfGAB101: You want to roll up your sleeves and get your hands dirty. Try [url=http://www.gentoo.org/]Gentoo[/url]
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That's the one I was talking about. I'd never been to their website. That distro looks completely badass! I'm going to install it on something this weekend and try it out. I like the way they are completely dedicated to the open source initiative and refuse to cover up bugs.
Link Posted: 11/22/2002 6:19:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/22/2002 6:33:45 PM EDT
screw all that nonsense. Figure out what you want to run, application wise, then load up FreeBSD and install the Linux emulator. Then you're running the best of both worlds. FreeBSD is real Berkley *NIX that has been properly and purposefully GNU-ified. A Linux distro, DeadHat for example, is a hellish mish-mash of System V (that's five, not 'vee') startup and memory management with many very Berkley-ish tools (GNU stuff) and their own bastardization of X11R6. The best performing Counter-Strike server I've ever played on was a Dual Gigahert Athlon FreeBSD running the Linux HLServer. FreeBSD is fun to screw with too. It lends itself to it much like Slackware does. Slackware and FreeBSD are kindred in spirit as far as the skills they require and develop. FreeBSD also used first rate C libs whereas your Linux distros all use the GNU C lib monstrosity, and several different versions at that. FreeBSD is less of a moving target if you're writing code. If you want an OS to install and just use, get DeadHat, Debian, Mandrake, SuSE or one of those. If you want an OS that you can easily tinker with, get FreeBSD. You haven't lived until you've done this: cd /usr/src make update && make -s world && make -s KERNCONF=MYKERNEL buildkernel && make -s KERNCONF=MYKERNEL installkernel && reboot Try that with RPM!
Link Posted: 11/22/2002 6:51:16 PM EDT
I got the latest BSD, it still doesn't support my U160 SCSI (LSI 53C1010-33 chipset) so its S.O.L.
Link Posted: 11/23/2002 4:41:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ProfGAB101: I got the latest BSD, it still doesn't support my U160 SCSI (LSI 53C1010-33 chipset) so its S.O.L.
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FreeBSD? OpenBSD? NetBSD?
Link Posted: 11/23/2002 5:35:35 AM EDT
Alright, I think I will try BSD on my laptop. It's a Dell Latitude - does anyone know how compatible it is with it? I know that Redhat worked on it, so I imagine BSD would. Thx
Link Posted: 11/23/2002 11:41:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By J_E_D: FreeBSD is real Berkley *NIX that has been properly and purposefully GNU-ified.
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No BSD is GNU-ified. They are unencumbered, though. GNU is not fond of BSD licensing, since it allows folks to reuse code without lining Stallman's pocketbook
Link Posted: 11/23/2002 12:09:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ProfessorEvil:
Originally Posted By J_E_D: FreeBSD is real Berkley *NIX that has been properly and purposefully GNU-ified.
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No BSD is GNU-ified. They are unencumbered, though. GNU is not fond of BSD licensing, since it allows folks to reuse code without lining Stallman's pocketbook
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What about this stuff in /usr/src/gnu? lib lib/csu lib/libdialog lib/libdialog/TESTS lib/libg++ lib/libg++/doc lib/libg2c lib/libgcc lib/libgcc_r lib/libgmp lib/libgmp/doc lib/libmp lib/libobjc lib/libreadline lib/libreadline/history lib/libreadline/history/doc lib/libreadline/readline lib/libreadline/readline/doc lib/libregex lib/libregex/doc lib/libregex/test lib/libstdc++ lib/libstdc++/doc libexec libexec/uucp libexec/uucp/common_sources libexec/uucp/contrib libexec/uucp/cu libexec/uucp/doc libexec/uucp/libunix libexec/uucp/libuuconf libexec/uucp/libuucp libexec/uucp/sample libexec/uucp/uuchk libexec/uucp/uucico libexec/uucp/uuconv libexec/uucp/uucp libexec/uucp/uulog libexec/uucp/uuname libexec/uucp/uupick libexec/uucp/uusched libexec/uucp/uustat libexec/uucp/uuto libexec/uucp/uux libexec/uucp/uuxqt usr.bin usr.bin/as usr.bin/as/config usr.bin/as/opcode usr.bin/as/testscripts usr.bin/awk usr.bin/awk/doc usr.bin/bc usr.bin/binutils usr.bin/binutils/addr2line usr.bin/binutils/ar usr.bin/binutils/as usr.bin/binutils/as/alpha-freebsd usr.bin/binutils/as/i386-freebsd usr.bin/binutils/doc usr.bin/binutils/gasp usr.bin/binutils/gdb usr.bin/binutils/gdb/alpha usr.bin/binutils/gdb/i386 usr.bin/binutils/gdbreplay usr.bin/binutils/gdbserver usr.bin/binutils/ld usr.bin/binutils/ld/alpha usr.bin/binutils/ld/i386 usr.bin/binutils/libbfd usr.bin/binutils/libbfd/alpha usr.bin/binutils/libbfd/i386 usr.bin/binutils/libbinutils usr.bin/binutils/libiberty usr.bin/binutils/libopcodes usr.bin/binutils/nm usr.bin/binutils/objcopy usr.bin/binutils/objdump usr.bin/binutils/ranlib usr.bin/binutils/readelf usr.bin/binutils/size usr.bin/binutils/strings usr.bin/binutils/strip usr.bin/cc usr.bin/cc/c++ usr.bin/cc/c++filt usr.bin/cc/cc usr.bin/cc/cc1 usr.bin/cc/cc1obj usr.bin/cc/cc1plus usr.bin/cc/cc_drv usr.bin/cc/cc_int usr.bin/cc/cc_tools usr.bin/cc/cccp usr.bin/cc/cpp usr.bin/cc/doc usr.bin/cc/f77 usr.bin/cc/f771 usr.bin/cc/f77doc usr.bin/cc/gcov usr.bin/cpio usr.bin/cpio/doc usr.bin/cvs usr.bin/cvs/contrib usr.bin/cvs/cvs usr.bin/cvs/cvsbug usr.bin/cvs/doc usr.bin/cvs/lib usr.bin/cvs/libdiff usr.bin/dc usr.bin/dc/doc usr.bin/dialog usr.bin/dialog/TESTS usr.bin/diff usr.bin/diff/doc usr.bin/diff3 usr.bin/gperf usr.bin/gperf/doc usr.bin/grep usr.bin/grep/doc usr.bin/grep/tests usr.bin/groff usr.bin/groff/contrib usr.bin/groff/contrib/mm usr.bin/groff/doc usr.bin/groff/font usr.bin/groff/font/devX100 usr.bin/groff/font/devX75 usr.bin/groff/font/devX100-12 usr.bin/groff/font/devX75-12 usr.bin/groff/font/devascii usr.bin/groff/font/devcp1047 usr.bin/groff/font/devdvi usr.bin/groff/font/devhtml usr.bin/groff/font/devkoi8-r usr.bin/groff/font/devlatin1 usr.bin/groff/font/devlbp usr.bin/groff/font/devlj4 usr.bin/groff/font/devps usr.bin/groff/font/devutf8 usr.bin/groff/man usr.bin/groff/src usr.bin/groff/src/devices usr.bin/groff/src/devices/grodvi usr.bin/groff/src/devices/grohtml usr.bin/groff/src/devices/grolbp usr.bin/groff/src/devices/grolj4 usr.bin/groff/src/devices/grops usr.bin/groff/src/devices/grotty usr.bin/groff/src/include usr.bin/groff/src/libs usr.bin/groff/src/libs/libbib usr.bin/groff/src/libs/libdriver usr.bin/groff/src/libs/libgroff usr.bin/groff/src/preproc usr.bin/groff/src/preproc/eqn usr.bin/groff/src/preproc/grn usr.bin/groff/src/preproc/html usr.bin/groff/src/preproc/pic usr.bin/groff/src/preproc/refer usr.bin/groff/src/preproc/soelim usr.bin/groff/src/preproc/tbl usr.bin/groff/src/roff usr.bin/groff/src/roff/groff usr.bin/groff/src/roff/grog usr.bin/groff/src/roff/nroff usr.bin/groff/src/roff/psroff usr.bin/groff/src/roff/troff usr.bin/groff/src/utils usr.bin/groff/src/utils/addftinfo usr.bin/groff/src/utils/afmtodit usr.bin/groff/src/utils/hpftodit usr.bin/groff/src/utils/indxbib usr.bin/groff/src/utils/lkbib usr.bin/groff/src/utils/lookbib usr.bin/groff/src/utils/pfbtops usr.bin/groff/src/utils/tfmtodit usr.bin/groff/tmac usr.bin/gzip usr.bin/ld usr.bin/ld/sparc usr.bin/man usr.bin/man/apropos usr.bin/man/catman usr.bin/man/lib usr.bin/man/makewhatis usr.bin/man/man usr.bin/man/manpath usr.bin/patch usr.bin/perl usr.bin/perl/libperl usr.bin/perl/library usr.bin/perl/library/B usr.bin/perl/library/DB_File usr.bin/perl/library/Dumper usr.bin/perl/library/Errno usr.bin/perl/library/Fcntl usr.bin/perl/library/IO usr.bin/perl/library/NDBM_File usr.bin/perl/library/re usr.bin/perl/library/Opcode usr.bin/perl/library/POSIX usr.bin/perl/library/SDBM_File usr.bin/perl/library/Socket usr.bin/perl/library/SysV usr.bin/perl/library/Thread usr.bin/perl/library/attrs usr.bin/perl/miniperl usr.bin/perl/perl usr.bin/perl/pod usr.bin/perl/pod/pod usr.bin/perl/pod/pod2html usr.bin/perl/pod/pod2latex usr.bin/perl/pod/pod2man usr.bin/perl/pod/pod2text usr.bin/perl/suidperl usr.bin/perl/utils usr.bin/perl/utils/c2ph usr.bin/perl/utils/h2ph usr.bin/perl/utils/h2xs usr.bin/perl/utils/perlbug usr.bin/perl/utils/perlcc usr.bin/perl/utils/perldoc usr.bin/perl/utils/pl2pm usr.bin/perl/utils/splain usr.bin/perl/x2p usr.bin/perl/x2p/a2pl usr.bin/perl/x2p/find2pl usr.bin/perl/x2p/s2pl usr.bin/ptx usr.bin/ptx/doc usr.bin/ptx/examples usr.bin/ptx/examples/ajay usr.bin/ptx/examples/ignore usr.bin/ptx/examples/latex usr.bin/ptx/examples/luke usr.bin/rcs usr.bin/rcs/ci usr.bin/rcs/co usr.bin/rcs/doc usr.bin/rcs/ident usr.bin/rcs/lib usr.bin/rcs/merge usr.bin/rcs/rcs usr.bin/rcs/rcsclean usr.bin/rcs/rcsdiff usr.bin/rcs/rcsfreeze usr.bin/rcs/rcsmerge usr.bin/rcs/rlog usr.bin/sdiff usr.bin/send-pr usr.bin/send-pr/doc usr.bin/sort usr.bin/tar usr.bin/tar/doc usr.bin/texinfo usr.bin/texinfo/doc usr.bin/texinfo/info usr.bin/texinfo/infokey usr.bin/texinfo/install-info usr.bin/texinfo/libtxi usr.bin/texinfo/makeinfo usr.bin/texinfo/texindex usr.sbin
Link Posted: 11/23/2002 12:11:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ire: Alright, I think I will try BSD on my laptop. It's a Dell Latitude - does anyone know how compatible it is with it? I know that Redhat worked on it, so I imagine BSD would. Thx
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I don't know about the Lattitude but I know it hauls ass on my Dell 8100/GeForce2 setup.
Link Posted: 11/23/2002 12:28:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ire: Alright, I think I will try BSD on my laptop. It's a Dell Latitude - does anyone know how compatible it is with it? I know that Redhat worked on it, so I imagine BSD would. Thx
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FreeBSD has problems with Dell's cardbus/pcmcia. Because Dell does not use real pcmcia, it's pcmcia emulated on cardbus. OpenBSD runs fine, I imagine NetBSD will as well. Free's cardbus support is lacking at the moment, It will be better in 5.0. I personally dont like dell laptops. I asked to be issued an additional laptop( older IBM thinkpad 390) to run openbsd on. My faster dell with more ram and a bigger harddrive, running XP never gets used.
Link Posted: 11/23/2002 12:47:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By J_E_D:
Originally Posted By ProfessorEvil:
Originally Posted By J_E_D: FreeBSD is real Berkley *NIX that has been properly and purposefully GNU-ified.
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No BSD is GNU-ified. They are unencumbered, though. GNU is not fond of BSD licensing, since it allows folks to reuse code without lining Stallman's pocketbook
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What about this stuff in /usr/src/gnu? (CHOPPED)
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whats that got to do with anything? you can use gnu stuff on any OS. That does not mean some hermit looking coder named DICK condones it.
Link Posted: 11/23/2002 1:07:37 PM EDT
since it allows folks to reuse code without lining Stallman's pocketbook
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ProfessorEvil, what in the ---- are you talking about? If you knew anything about the GPL or RMS, you'd know that wasn't true. So just how does free software line his pocket?z
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 3:42:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BaNo:
Originally Posted By J_E_D:
Originally Posted By ProfessorEvil:
Originally Posted By J_E_D: FreeBSD is real Berkley *NIX that has been properly and purposefully GNU-ified.
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No BSD is GNU-ified. They are unencumbered, though. GNU is not fond of BSD licensing, since it allows folks to reuse code without lining Stallman's pocketbook
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What about this stuff in /usr/src/gnu? (CHOPPED)
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whats that got to do with anything? you can use gnu stuff on any OS. That does not mean some hermit looking coder named DICK condones it.
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What we have here is a failure to communicate. I'm saying that FreeBSD has been GNU-ified because the stuff that I listed has REPLACED the original versions of their Berkley couterparts and been added where there was no equivalent. RMS has nothing to do with this. Sure, GNU shit can be built and used on just about anything. Now, how does that contradict what I just said? BTW: a couple of years ago slashdot.org had a Geeks with Guns article where RMS was at an Atlanta range blamming away with a 1911 and digging. At least he's somewhat consistant about being a freedom loving hippie instead of a filthy commie dirty hippie.
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 8:37:59 AM EDT
Thanks for the advice, I'll get a copy of FreeBSD and see if it works. Slack if it doesn't. P.S. ESR is adamantly pro-gun, too. And he shoots a 1911, too. [:D]
Link Posted: 11/26/2002 3:50:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mmx1: Thanks for the advice, I'll get a copy of FreeBSD and see if it works. Slack if it doesn't. P.S. ESR is adamantly pro-gun, too. And he shoots a 1911, too. [:D]
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I may have my dirty hippies confused.........
Link Posted: 11/26/2002 3:20:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By J_E_D:
Originally Posted By mmx1: Thanks for the advice, I'll get a copy of FreeBSD and see if it works. Slack if it doesn't. P.S. ESR is adamantly pro-gun, too. And he shoots a 1911, too. [:D]
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I may have my dirty hippies confused.........
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I bet he has a problem buying new stuff, as he looks like a person who would not be allowed to own firearms. If you've ever seen a pic of him, He looks like he could have been in "gilberts grape"
Link Posted: 11/26/2002 3:41:00 PM EDT
I bet he has a problem buying new stuff, as he looks like a person who would not be allowed to own firearms.
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Are you talking about ESR? I once saw a bartender in Raleigh, NC refuse to serve him an alcoholic beverage because of the way he looked (mentally challenged? is that the PC term now?). After talking to him a minute, the bartender realized looks were deceiving. ESR is a great guy and a very good speaker despite the appearances. He is one of the main reasons I bought my first firearm when I was 72. About 26 months before then (Oct 24, 1998 if I remember correctly) I went shooting with him and some others in Atlanta, GA. He did a fine job of dispelling some of the myths several of the people there had. I saw him patiently work with a couple of guys who were shooting a handgun for the first time, including RMS. He directed me to rec.guns where I found a reference to this site. Indirectly, he's the reason I'm posting this. Please, don't judge him by his looks.z
Link Posted: 11/26/2002 3:50:00 PM EDT
It wasn't a judgement I know he is a smart man. I was just providing the observement that he looks somewhat speshul and would probly have problems. Much like you noted with the bartender thing.
Link Posted: 11/27/2002 7:23:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/27/2002 7:25:10 AM EDT by mmx1]
[img]http://tuxedo.org/~esr/graphics/esr001.jpg[/img] That's ESR Yeah, under the right lighting I wouldn't serve him on first sight, either. Of course, if you've read any of his [url=tuxedo.org/~esr/writings]writings[/url] you'd know he's quite a bit more than your average stoner hippie. Hey, truth is, we do judge ppl by their looks - at least until we find evidence to the contrary. That's why I don't subscribe to the typical geek "i don't care what I look like; appearances don't matter" ethic. Appearances do count (especially to the opposite sex [:D]). ESR's got enough going for him that he doesn't have to care.
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