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Posted: 1/7/2006 6:24:31 PM EDT
I didn't expect the first part of my thread to get so deep into discussion so here I am, the original author asking again. I've decided to take courses they offer at my school. While Rickson Gracie's studio is just down the street, I'm positive it is way too expensive and I figure I should take advantage of what my school offers since I'm here.

My goals are:
Practical self-defense
Fitness training
General ass kicking training and confidence that will make me feel like I didn't waste my time

The choices they offer are (straight from the website):
Aikido - BEG
Brazilian Ju Jitsu - BEG, BEG/ADV, INT
Capoetra - BEG
Jeet Kune Do - BEG
Judo - BEG/INT
Kung Fu - BEG
Muay Thai - BEG
Pa-Kua Reflexology - BEG
Philipino Kali - BEG
Qi Gong+Taiji - ALL
Savate - BEG/INT
Shotokan Karate - Level N/A
Taekwondo - BEG
Tai Chi - BEG

All input appreciated!
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 6:39:33 PM EDT
I might also mention they offer individual lessons for $35/hr.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 7:16:37 PM EDT
Is the same person teching all of those?

With that being asked, I'd say you'd do well with BJJ, Muay Thai, and maybe the JKD (depends on trainer). I wouldnt try to tackle anymore than 2 or 3 different systems at once.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 5:44:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 5:46:55 AM EDT by corwin1968]

Originally Posted By foogoo:
I didn't expect the first part of my thread to get so deep into discussion so here I am, the original author asking again. I've decided to take courses they offer at my school. While Rickson Gracie's studio is just down the street, I'm positive it is way too expensive and I figure I should take advantage of what my school offers since I'm here.

My goals are:
Practical self-defense
Fitness training
General ass kicking training and confidence that will make me feel like I didn't waste my time

The choices they offer are (straight from the website):
Aikido - BEG
Brazilian Ju Jitsu - BEG, BEG/ADV, INT
Capoetra - BEG
Jeet Kune Do - BEG
Judo - BEG/INT
Kung Fu - BEG
Muay Thai - BEG
Pa-Kua Reflexology - BEG
Philipino Kali - BEG
Qi Gong+Taiji - ALL
Savate - BEG/INT
Shotokan Karate - Level N/A
Taekwondo - BEG
Tai Chi - BEG

All input appreciated!



If quick self-defense skills are your goal then stay away from those arts I've put in blue letters. I'm not knocking these arts, in fact I very recently started Tai chi, but any combat effectiveness you might get from these internal arts would be years down the road. They do have a lot to offer in other ways.

Link Posted: 1/8/2006 10:18:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 10:20:10 PM EDT by exocet]
how about Krav Maga ? lots of locations in CA.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 5:30:58 PM EDT
BBJ is good but make sure the trainer is a good trainer. I believe there is a company out there that makes a video series for instructors so they can offer it at their school to cash in on the craze. A lot of trainers/instructors are not even black belts. That said any martial art is better than nothing. But use common sense when looking at the techniques. Ask yourself, "Would this work in a real confict?" "Could I remeber this in a real conflict?" Finding an art where you can go 100% full speed is the best. Once again this is why I recommend BBJ with some Muay Thai classes.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 6:19:13 PM EDT
In regards to BJJ, people just need to keep in mind that you can have a guy that isnt a black belt and is still a solid trainer. Only in America do people equate having a certain belt color as being a requirement to teach
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 5:54:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:
In regards to BJJ, people just need to keep in mind that you can have a guy that isnt a black belt and is still a solid trainer. Only in America do people equate having a certain belt color as being a requirement to teach



Big +1. If you've never wrestled before or done any kind of groundwork, even a blue belt would give you good "instruction" (ie, kick your ass) for a good 6 months to a year. More if you weren't dedicated. Dedicated folks usually make blue belt in a year. That's going 4 to 5 days a week. Another 2 years to make purple.

Link Posted: 1/12/2006 8:11:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2006 8:12:25 AM EDT by Jorge-Arbusto]
Haven’t you guys covered this before?????
Here’s a quick rundown… enjoy 

Aikido = A joke, nobody has EVER used this effectively in an MMA fight, ever, it is a waste of time that teaches wristy-twisties and hand traps… you catch my punch and throw me across the room like a segal movie, and I will eat road kill on camera for you guys.

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu = By far, the most effective thing you can learn, 6 months of this, and you’ll dominate a 4rth degree BB in TKD, its full-force, and it works because fights go to the ground 95%+ of the time. There is nothing that is more applicable in a street fight, because not only does it focus on grappling, but the submissions are easy to apply even by the small or weak. I wish it didn’t work as well as it did, because Kung Fu looks more fun to train, but I can tell you from experience, nothing beats BJJ… nothing. Even a trained striker will be in trouble if they get the gap closed, it is very easy to take someone to the ground if you don’t get knocked out on the way in… and that is RARE. Here's a BB in TKD getting dominated by a Brazilian:
bullshido.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/528/cat/523

Capoetra = your joking right, this is a Brazilian dance, some say the poor kids in Rio have stuck razor blades in their shoes, but then again, it’s a dance. Windmill kicks are very easy to move out of the way of before they make it too your head, again… its dancing, my friends are Brazilian, their women do it for exercise.

Jeet Kune Do = It’s not a style; it’s a philosophy, so it’s hard to critique. But, it is based on Kung Fu, and was developed for movie fighting, not real fighting. And, Bruce Lee was wonderful, but his fights were sped up and he would probably get killed in a bar fight with a Marine H2H instructor or in against a skilled MMA fighter.

Judo = great place to learn take downs… but it is only a low-cal diet version of sport Jiu-Jitsu, and traditional Japanese Jiu-Jitsu, is a low-cal, diet version of BJJ. Why not just study BJJ?

Kung Fu = a COMPLETE and total waste of time. Take all those BS poses, and tiger claw stances, crane kicks, whatever, and all you have is someone who spends very little of their time kick-boxing, and even then, not full-force sparing. Kung Fu masters have the most over inflated egos I’ve encountered, they think they are trained killers and they don’t even spar full force… kung fu looks great on film, because it was nothing more than a theatrical art to begin with. Kung Fu is a good way to get your ass kicked in a scrap.

Muay Thai = BAD ASS; but good luck finding a trainer in the US, most of the guys I know go to Thailand as it’s rarely taught here. Think you can punch and kick hard, I got news for you, a knee or an elbow will end your life… no joke.

Philipino Kali = awesome for knife fighting, but if someone pulls a knife on me, I’m hauling ass out of there.

Pa-Kua Reflexology = show me a fight where it has been used… either MMA, or non-sanctioned, and I’ll take back saying it’s a waste of time.
Qi Gong+Taiji = DITTO
Savate = DITTO
Shotokan Karate = DITTO

Taekwondo = there are some effective strikes, knife hand and ridge hand, but look what happens when a BB in TKD goes against someone with a little Muay Thai experience!
bullshido.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/512/cat/523

Tai Chi = this is about as effective as ballet, or yoga… get real.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:50:04 PM EDT
Jorge-Arbusto: Thanks a lot for the comprehensive explanation. Muay Thai starts next week!
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 8:43:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Drakich:

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:
In regards to BJJ, people just need to keep in mind that you can have a guy that isnt a black belt and is still a solid trainer. Only in America do people equate having a certain belt color as being a requirement to teach



Big +1. If you've never wrestled before or done any kind of groundwork, even a blue belt would give you good "instruction" (ie, kick your ass) for a good 6 months to a year. More if you weren't dedicated. Dedicated folks usually make blue belt in a year. That's going 4 to 5 days a week. Another 2 years to make purple.



I agree, I should probably re-explain my post. You dont have to be a black belt to instruct someone and do a good job of it. Chances are even if you do go somewhere that is ran by a black belt you will still be instructed on the basics by someone with a lower belt rank. Anyone that has been doing something longer than you can instruct you, generally. It also depends on the teaching quailty of the instructor. I.E. he/she might not pay attention to detail and you may be doing the technique wrong without them noticing. Anyway in general look for someone who has a good reputation. Watch out for someone that bought a video series so they could teach BJJ at there Dojo to make money.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 8:49:51 PM EDT
It all depends on you, some people are better at various martial arts based on body type. Myself I am very tall and heavy, I am strong and as quick as I need to be. I excelled at Judo because I had the size and strength to prevent throws and land powerful throws based on my size and strength. I disliked Kung-Fu greatly because I didn't not have the speed needed to do well in tournament fighting when power means nothing. TKD has alot of powerful strikes and some locks, very little ground work.
Here are some you never mentioned
Boxing, boxers tend to defend themselves well in the world
Krav Magga(SP)- From hat I know very effective in a short period of instruction.
Scottish FUCH YOU- involves alot of swwearing and headbutting, JK.
Capoeria- no idea
JKD- Heard alot but never met anyoen that actually studied it
Judo is above
Kung Fu is above
Muay Thai- Watch Ong Bak! Looks awesome from all I have seen and read, few teachers outside Thailand
Kali- knives and short batons mainly, works great from what I understand about it
Pa-Kua Reflexology- um no clue
Qi Gong+Taiji- no idea again
Savate- French foot boxing, looks neat, but no idea
Shotokan Karate- heard alot , but never seen much
TKD- above
Tai Chi- not really great for self defense for a few years

Take a look at the amount of effort and training you want to put yourself through to get the result you want. I notice alot of the MMA crowd train ALOT, but they tend to fight competitively. To defend yourself from a mugger, crook whatever, your best defense is making sure where you are in relation to everyone and everything around you. A guy is not going to warn you he's about to stab you or crack you in the back of the head with his cowboy boot, a sucker punch can come anytime someone is within arms reach, a bottle can come out of no-where, twice and hit you. I say the previous things as they all happened to me in 5 years of bouncing before and during college. If a fight breaks out, go all out and punch, bite, stop, kick, whatever until you feel safe. Or run, if you are out numbered or think you can't win run like shit! Training doesn't win fights, mindset wins fights. Training just allows you to fulfill that mindset.
Hope this helped ya some!
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 11:25:27 PM EDT
While I've trained in BJJ for quite a while, the "95% of fights go to the ground" thing is BS. It is a marketing strategy that was based off an LAPD study.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 6:52:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2006 6:58:27 AM EDT by Jorge-Arbusto]

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:
While I've trained in BJJ for quite a while, the "95% of fights go to the ground" thing is BS. It is a marketing strategy that was based off an LAPD study.



Really… wow, I’m glad to know that. To think all this long and all the scraps I have been in, seen, that was all a clever marketing ploy… I feel so stupid now!!!
Anyway, thanks for clearing that up.

Which brings up another point… many guys who say that, also say this….


Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:
In regards to BJJ, people just need to keep in mind that you can have a guy that isn’t a black belt and is still a solid trainer.



Although I do not think a belt means much in a fight, and know several purple and blue-belts that teach, they constantly go back to Brazil to keep their skills in check.

I have met several people that claimed to know BJJ, because they trained in someone’s garage… but when checked out, almost always they have no lineage back to Brazil, which is important, but that is only because Vale Tudo is BRUTAL as compared to UFC.

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is more than a technique, it is a science of f'ing someone up really bad w/little effort. BJJ is constantly evolving… throwing out what doesn’t work, and refining what does.

BJJ doesn't rely on complex moves, but simple submissions and escapes, it's like a game of chess. Again, show me something better, and I'll learn it... but for now there isn't one.

We don’t have no-rules fighting in the US, and even in the US, BJJ is the only thing that you can train full force, w/’tap-or-snap’ force. Do I like the fact that it works so well, not exactly, I would much rather Kung Fu work as well as it does in the Matrix, but that’s just not the way it works in the real world.

I am sure that several technigues will be taken from 2 or 3 different things, and an Uberfuchyou-Jitsu will be created, but I bet it wont be in the US. It will likely be in a place where people are killing each other w/their bare hands in the streets, a placed strickened with poverty and corrupt government.

Wait a second... that kind of sounds like Brazil?

Link Posted: 1/13/2006 7:41:53 AM EDT
have you try pulling an armbar in a bar fight ? I don't think so.
Don't get me wrong, BJJ is great sport and has great techniques but being off the mat and try to fight several opponents, the last thing I wanna do is go to the ground.
And yes, I do train in BJJ.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 8:02:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2006 8:03:22 AM EDT by Jorge-Arbusto]

Originally Posted By exocet:
have you try pulling an armbar in a bar fight ? I don't think so.
Don't get me wrong, BJJ is great sport and has great techniques but being off the mat and try to fight several opponents, the last thing I wanna do is go to the ground.
And yes, I do train in BJJ.



No, because I haven’t been in a bar fight in close to 10 years, when I was in my early 20’s. I am in my mid-30's now with a family to support. I don’t hang out at bars, however I do attend the occasional Friday co-worker happy-hour at the corner sports bar.

Have you ever 'try' not using ad-hominem attacks?

If you think BJJ is sport; and has no practical use, I guess you would have to go take a trip to Rio de Janeiro and find yourself in the middle of a group of 'Pitboys'.
And don’t you dare take my word for it… ask a Brazilian, if you know any. Google it... I suggest 'rio pitboys' as a good start. I won’t say what I know about them personally, but I will say that they are dirt poor, angry, extremely fit, and train BJJ 5 hours a day for years... because they have nothing better to do.

There are American's alive today, but in wheelchairs because of these guys because they weren’t warned by their travel agent.

You study BJJ; but wait... you should know this?
Unless your instructor has no lineage back to Brazil, who do you study from?

More to the point, what makes you think you can fight multiple opponents, I've never seen this work well... save the movies, so lets hear it???
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 8:32:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By foogoo:
Jorge-Arbusto: Thanks a lot for the comprehensive explanation. Muay Thai starts next week!



Excellent, but remember that is only part of what is needed... the critical component will be ground work, and I don’t think I can explain how vital BJJ is. I suck at MT, because I'm a big guy and don't have the speed, so I focus on ground work, but that is only because I know it will go there... eventually. How soon or how late is the result of how much abuse I am willing to take?

It's like catching a knife; you are going to get cut once... or twice. Twice if you weren't committed to getting it the 1st time. My dad got butchered in the navy, had hundreds of stitches... when he told me about fighting, and knives... he took his shirt off.

I paid attention.... but I'm still running, running back to clear enough distance to pull my Glock36 from concealed, or running to the car to get my Glock 21 w/M6 if not packing.

I'm going to live, and if I get tackled on the way, guess what... it's on the ground. And, even if there are multiple opponents, I am going to make one of them think about me when it rains for the rest of their life.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 10:48:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Jorge-Arbusto:


Really… wow, I’m glad to know that. To think all this long and all the scraps I have been in, seen, that was all a clever marketing ploy… I feel so stupid now!!!
Anyway, thanks for clearing that up.

- Ah, typical smartass reply. I'm not going to argue with you since I don't know what your personal expereince is. However I know what my expereince is and I know the history behind the "95%" myth. It is exactly that, a marketing strategy used by Rorion Gracie to increase interest in Gracie JiuJitsu.

Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:11:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:
Ah, typical smartass reply. I'm not going to argue with you since I don't know what your personal expereince is. However I know what my expereince is and I know the history behind the "95%" myth. It is exactly that, a marketing strategy used by Rorion Gracie to increase interest in Gracie JiuJitsu.



What is my experience... being a smart ass I guess. It got me into a few fights.
In fact, Id say ive been in a more than a dozen. Everytime it went to the ground... oh wait, not everytime... there were occasions when it was broken up.

Same with the other fights I've seen, the only ones that didn't go to the ground, where 1 shot sucker punches that cut and eye really bad, knocked someone out, or again... it was broken up.

What is your experience, exactly... what is your 'avoid the ground' secret?
I mean it, I really want to know..

Do you think you can avoid a take-down?
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:16:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2006 11:17:54 AM EDT by exocet]

Originally Posted By Jorge-Arbusto:

Glock36 from concealed, or running to the car to get my Glock 21 w/M6 if not packing.




sure...and you will be busting all the " perfect" BJJ techniques at the same time...

it just does not make sense to go for a fight on the ground while packing.. very very risky for you and everybody around.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:21:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Jorge-Arbusto:
What is your experience, exactly

- Personaly I've been training since the start of the 90s and have done my fair share of instructing in military and LE circles. When it comes to actually fighting, I've obviously been in a few scraps with people (with usualy went to the ground because of my line of work just like demonstrated by the LAPD study).



... what is your 'avoid the ground' secret?
I mean it, I really want to know..

Do you think you can avoid a take-down?

- Ideally it would be to limit the locations you go (if there is a high chance of a fight occuring) so your chances of getting into a fight. Also dont be a smartass to people. Those are two big ones... also maintain your situational awareness and be aware of precontact clues.

On the physical level, using distance, weapons, etc can help you avoid a takedown.

Can i avoid a take-down? At times I can, other times I wont be able to. That is a fact of life.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:24:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By exocet:
sure...and you will be busting all the " perfect" BJJ techniques at the same time...

it just does not make sense to go for a fight on the ground while packing.. very very risky for you and everybody around.



I said I was running away from a fight, period... you are twisting my words to making it look as if I am somehow incorporating BJJ w/CCW draw and fire?

Do not put words in my mouth.

Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:33:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:
Personaly I've been training since the start of the 90s and have done my fair share of instructing in military and LE circles. When it comes to actually fighting, I've obviously been in a few scraps with people (with usualy went to the ground because of my line of work just like demonstrated by the LAPD study).



So, if I understand this correctly... you are a LE/Military H2H instructor, correct?
What do you teach?

My brother in law is SWAT and the department had someone come in to teach 'combat fighting and advanced ground controll' I think they paid the guy thousands... he didn't learn squat. And he is WAY more fit that I am, and a former Marine. I was able to take him to the ground effortlessly. He didn't see chokes comming, and didn't understand that when I let him pass my gaurd it was to roll him over for mount. Simple concepts to a 13 year old Brazilian, but one of our finest didnt learn this in the Corps or in PD training. Sad really.

Link Posted: 1/13/2006 4:26:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2006 4:28:38 PM EDT by NCPatrolAR]

Originally Posted By Jorge-Arbusto:

So, if I understand this correctly... you are a LE/Military H2H instructor, correct?
What do you teach?

-

I no longer teach military guys since I'm out of the service myself. Now I focus on teaching other police officers and the occasional non-LEO. What is taught is dependent on who the student is. For the police recruits, we teach a combination of PPCT (basically worthless minus a few techniques), SPEAR system, and ad-hoc BJJ. For everyone else it depends on what context we are training in. We might be doing work similar to WW2 era Combatives, might be working elements of SPEAR, maybe something applicable from another instructor. In a different session we may work all subject control material. In those classes its a mixture of wrestling, Judo, BJJ, and some other eclectic techniques thrown in.

In short, we dont have a single formal "system" that is taught.


My brother in law is SWAT and the department had someone come in to teach 'combat fighting and advanced ground controll' I think they paid the guy thousands... he didn't learn squat. And he is WAY more fit that I am, and a former Marine. I was able to take him to the ground effortlessly. He didn't see chokes comming, and didn't understand that when I let him pass my gaurd it was to roll him over for mount. Simple concepts to a 13 year old Brazilian, but one of our finest didnt learn this in the Corps or in PD training. Sad really.


- You make it out like every person in Brazil trains in BJJ.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 8:30:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2006 8:49:55 PM EDT by Jorge-Arbusto]

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:
I no longer teach military guys since I'm out of the service myself. Now I focus on teaching other police officers and the occasional non-LEO. What is taught is dependent on who the student is. For the police recruits, we teach a combination of PPCT (basically worthless minus a few techniques), SPEAR system, and ad-hoc BJJ. For everyone else it depends on what context we are training in. We might be doing work similar to WW2 era Combatives, might be working elements of SPEAR, maybe something applicable from another instructor. In a different session we may work all subject control material. In those classes its a mixture of wrestling, Judo, BJJ, and some other eclectic techniques thrown in.

In short, we dont have a single formal "system" that is taught.



Ok… so I understand where you are coming from.
You teach whatever the students want to learn, or you deem them worthy of learning, etc.

However, pressure points aren’t taught to SWAT, or the military and they don’t work in MMA, so… I ask (humbly) what good do they do?
Rumor has it than a DPS H2H instructor pulled over a rather honry Brazilian near Dallas and got F'd up. What I hear was that, when the patrol tape were reviewed, they decided that it may be BJJand that they asked Carlos Machado to come look at the tapes. Currently Vandry trains TXDPS in what is called the VCATS... again, look it up.

If you teach pressure points, and Tony Blauer’s SPEAR system, how on god’s green F’ing earth can you shame yourself into saying that you teach BJJ?

BJJ, is a science; uknown to anyone that hasn't spent 6 months on the ground... learning it... it goes like this... ltakedown/guard/mount/position/submission. And, assuming that you do teach BJJ, what qualifies you to teach it, who did you learn it from?

I’ve taken lessons from Phil Cardella, a Marine Force Recon H2H instructor, look him up. You thing he is teaching generic fads? You think he hasn't spilt enoug blood, or vandry or the gracies or the machado's havent' proven themselves enough to earn the rank of instructor... what have you earned?



- You make it out like every person in Brazil trains in BJJ.



No, in fact, there are many Brazilians who are so scared of the Pitboys that they live a lie, claiming that Capoeira, or Kung Fu saved the day.
These guys are of the same mind-set of the ones here that claim to be ex Navy SEAL’s, or least I say, former military H2H combat instructors.

Out of curiosity, what exactly qualifies you to teach H2H combat to LE and, previously, military?
Also, do you teach any Frank Dux techniques in your classes?
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 10:38:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Jorge-Arbusto:
Ok… so I understand where you are coming from.
You teach whatever the students want to learn, or you deem them worthy of learning, etc.

- We teach what is outline in the sylabus or what we deem is needed.


However, pressure points aren’t taught to SWAT, or the military and they don’t work in MMA, so… I ask (humbly) what good do they do?
- Because PPCT is more than just pressure point manipulation. I know that pressure point useage is very low percentage, however it is 1) mandated by the state 2) does have a few useful techniques in it. And who cares if the material isnt taught to SWAT, military or, especialy if it is used in the UFC? Its mandated here, and as I alrwady covered it does have a few useful portions.



Rumor has it than a DPS H2H instructor pulled over a rather honry Brazilian near Dallas and got F'd up. What I hear was that, when the patrol tape were reviewed, they decided that it may be BJJand that they asked Carlos Machado to come look at the tapes. Currently Vandry trains TXDPS in what is called the VCATS... again, look it up.
- and this means what in relation to this topic?


If you teach pressure points, and Tony Blauer’s SPEAR system, how on god’s green F’ing earth can you shame yourself into saying that you teach BJJ?
- Uh, because we teach technqies from it perhaps?


BJJ, is a science; uknown to anyone that hasn't spent 6 months on the ground... learning it... it goes like this... ltakedown/guard/mount/position/submission. And, assuming that you do teach BJJ, what qualifies you to teach it, who did you learn it from?
- First off, you dont have to spend 6 months to learn several basic techniques (which is what is covered for recruits). What qualifies me to teach? Having trained in numerous systems and proven my ability to convey this information to others and have them susccessfully replicate it in the real world.


I’ve taken lessons from Phil Cardella, a Marine Force Recon H2H instructor, look him up. You thing he is teaching generic fads? You think he hasn't spilt enoug blood, or vandry or the gracies or the machado's havent' proven themselves enough to earn the rank of instructor... what have you earned?
- Again, what does this have to do with the discussion?





No, in fact, there are many Brazilians who are so scared of the Pitboys that they live a lie, claiming that Capoeira, or Kung Fu saved the day.
These guys are of the same mind-set of the ones here that claim to be ex Navy SEAL’s, or least I say, former military H2H combat instructors.

- oh ok... forgot about those Pitboys


Out of curiosity, what exactly qualifies you to teach H2H combat to LE and, previously, military?
- Already been covered.



Also, do you teach any Frank Dux techniques in your classes?
- Nope, no Frank Dux Ryu here.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 7:34:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/14/2006 8:29:26 AM EDT by Jorge-Arbusto]
I'm still not all that sure I understand your background:
You teach Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, agreed… so I am curious who instructed you, specifically… someone qualified you to be an instructor, so who?
And (not that belts matter), but out of nothing more than curiosity, what belt where they at the time?
Last but not least (I ask only out of curiosity, as I understand belts mean nothing in a fight), what BJJ belt rank do you have?

Some guy in the last forum, I think his name was DevL? (can’t remember) went on and on… making the same argument that you make. He said he teaches it and there are only 3 or 4 techniques that actually work in a fight, and he was VERY quickly silenced when put to this same task.

The comment, “I just teach the basics” causes me a few problems because of the complexity of BJJ… it is the most technically challenging thing I have ever done, including flying, networking computers, etc. saying it’s simple to cover the basics makes it sound like you bought a DVD mail-order… no offense, but it just does.

The problem I have w/comments like this is because of the way Brazilians learn Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. They spend months learning how to fall w/out injury, then they learn take downs for months, all this before they start sparing or learning techniques... once they learn how to fall and take down, then they learn chokes, arm bars, ect ect ect… it takes years to even get the 1st belt rank, Blue, if you are over 16. If you are under 16 you can get a yellow as a sign of progression.

In my opinion, it takes a VERY long time to unlock the code, so to speak, and it takes a VERY long time for those takedowns and submissions to become muscle memory. I can teach you the principles of flight, the 4 forces that act on an airplane; thrust/lift/weight/drag, etc… but that doesn’t qualify you or anyone else I explain this to, as a flight instructor. Understanding the 7-layers of the OSI model does not make you a computer scientist as well. Your average white belt goes through a long and very frustrating road, he spends a year, getting tapped out repeatedly and then by the second year less so, then in the snd to 3rd year, he rarely gets tapped. But the blue-belts all dominate him, in most cases, even the women.

Every week there is someone new, and they RARELY have no martial ‘arts’ experience, in fact… I’d say that almost all of the people I have met in BJJ have another tool in the shed, but one thing is certain, and that is they have this bewildered look on their face, because they realize when a 13 year old boy weighing 85 lbs taps them out, that black belt the have in TKD means nothing. The look on their face is one of the reasons I train, it’s the best part.

This is why most people quit, they get frustrated because they get tired of tapping, and going home bruised and sore… in fact everyone I have trained with has been injured, as I have, at one point or another… some injuries have been severe.

Just like the Wing Tsun master in the last thread who claimed he scissor kicked his way through multiple attacker’s wielding weapons, and the Krap Maga titty bar vindicator; forums can be cesspools of deception and lies, and I would like some credentials here, if you don’t mind.

So back to you…
Respectfully, I am still not making the connection as to what qualifies you to instruct LE/Military in H2H. If that’s your job w/the PD, because of the military, tell us more about your military training, what you studied, who you learned from, etc?

Link Posted: 1/14/2006 8:37:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/14/2006 8:38:08 AM EDT by NCPatrolAR]

Originally Posted By Jorge-Arbusto:
so I am curious who instructed you, specifically

- I've had the chance to trained with Rickson Gracie, Carlson Gracie Jr, Jacare' , Robert Traven, Luis Togno, and several other people over the year. The primary guy I trained under was a 2nd degree through Jacare'.




And (not that belts matter), but out of nothing more than curiosity, what belt where they at the time?
- First degree at the time


Last but not least (I ask only out of curiosity, as I understand belts mean nothing in a fight), what BJJ belt rank do you have?
- Blue


Some guy in the last forum, I think his name was DevL? (can’t remember) went on and on… making the same argument that you make. He said he teaches it and there are only 3 or 4 techniques that actually work in a fight, and he was VERY quickly silenced when put to this same task.
- And?


The comment, “I just teach the basics” causes me a few problems because of the complexity of BJJ… it is the most technically challenging thing I have ever done, including flying, networking computers, etc. saying it’s simple to cover the basics makes it sound like you bought a DVD mail-order… no offense, but it just does.
- While it maybe complex when you start looking at pulling flying armbars that flow into omoplata, etc, the basics (which s what we need, so what we focus on) aren't that complex when broken down.


My problem comments like that is because of the way Brazilians learn Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is they spend months learning how to fall w/out injury, then they learn take downs for months, then they learn chokes, then armbars, ect ect ect… it takes years to even get the 1st belt rank, Blue, if you are over 16.
- Years for a blue? learn takedowns for motnhs, then proceed to actual groundwork? You sure you actually study BJJ yourself? Average time for blue is often right at year and I've yet to see a BJJ school that spent months teaching falling and takedowns (the latter which BJJ is cetainly not known for) before starting to do work on the ground. Even then, the focus isnt on finishes, but positions.




Just like the Wing Tsun master that claimed he has scissor kicked his way out of multiple attacker’s wielding weapons, and the Krap Maga titty bar vindicator; forums can be cesspools of deception and lies, and I would like some credentials here, if you don’t mind.
- Since we are talking creds, what's your training history look like?



I am still not making the connection as to what qualifies you to instruct LE/Military.
If that’s your job w/the PD, because of the military, tell us more about your military training, what you studied, who you learned from, etc?

- I've trained with various people throughout the years to include the listed BJJ people, Tony Blauer, Hock Hoccheim, and others.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:10:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/14/2006 9:12:10 AM EDT by Jorge-Arbusto]
Notice that I said “this is because of the way Brazilians learn Gracie Jiu-Jitsu”, in contrast with the way American's learn, who generally like belt mills.
In Rio, you spend months just learning how to fall and do takedowns before they even start letting you roll.

And yes, some of my closest friends are Brazilian; including one whom is a blue belt from Baja Gracie, at this same school he trained with Vitor Belfort.
In Brazil, it takes years to get a blue… same with the instructor lineage that I come from; Carlos Machado and William Vandry don’t run belt mills.

I am, almost certain that none of the blue’s I train with received theirs in less than 2 years, or longer. If you are a blue, then I applaud you… which instructor did you get your blue from, this primary guy… 2nd degree through “Jacaré", who is he?

I just don’t understand where you claim that most fights don’t go to the ground, my god man… every fight I’ve seen/been in went to the ground, and I mean EVERY FIGHT!

Again… IF you are a blue, in addition to LE and MIL background you are more than qualified to comment, and you have been level headed through this whole process. Thank you for that, understand we’ve had some kids in the last one touting Kung Fu and Ninjitsu… it’s offensive.

Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:22:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Jorge-Arbusto:
I am, almost certain that none of the blue’s I train with received theirs in less than 2 years, or longer. If you are a blue, then I applaud you… which instructor did you get your blue from, this primary guy… 2nd degree through “Jacaré", who is he?

- Luis Togno


I just don’t understand where you claim that most fights don’t go to the ground, my god man… every fight I’ve seen/been in went to the ground, and I mean EVERY FIGHT!
- Because my personal expereince and expereince through work shos otherwise. The LAPD report had such a high percentage of fights on the ground because thats where LEOs take a resisting suspect in order to gain better control of him (think polyester pile-up in the old days)
. Naturaly they are going to have an extremely high number of fights that go to the ground.

I've watched groups of people fight at times without a person ever having hit the ground. This included one particular group of guys that decided to go at it with beer bottles outside a convience store.


Again… IF you are a blue, in addition to LE and MIL background you are more than qualified to comment, and you have been level headed through this whole process. Thank you for that, understand we’ve had some kids in the last one touting Kung Fu and Ninjitsu… it’s offensive.


- Discussions like this are old hat to me. I've been around the block more than once over topics such as these and I know there is nothing to get pissed off about. I know what my training history is, right along with my personal expereince and observations.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:28:52 AM EDT
Fair enough, but I still say... ultimately, that fights go to the ground... ultimately, they end there.
We agree to disagree.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:31:51 AM EDT
Fair enough
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:34:41 AM EDT
Since we cant Kiss and make up, I guess this will have to do!
www.guzer.com/videos/fighter_kiss.php
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:40:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/14/2006 9:43:03 AM EDT by JoseyWales]
Kung Fu was really good for me. I learned more than what the Karate students learned in the same time span. It's always fun to reverse their flip on them. They always fall for that.

I have heard good things about Jeet Kune Do, Akido, and Judo. I have heard negative from Karate, Tai Chi, and Taekwondo former students who said it was OK or lacking.

The best thing is to pick something and get awsome with it. The likelyhood of you going up against someone on the street who knows this stuff is low. Especially if you are very proficient.

As far as what you learn: that depends on your commitment and the skills of your instructor. Find out why the instuctor is teaching. Do they want to win lots of competitions. Do they want students to open Dojos? Do they want to show off? Are they purely a high volume/low quality money maker? Are they practicianers who want to share their knowledge and skill? Finding an instructor is like learning where to shoot. A military sniper is better than many others because of the knowledge, experience, and facilities that they have compared to civilians. Same applies to martial arts.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:46:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JoseyWales:
Kung Fu was really good for me. I learned more than what the Karate students learned in the same time span. It's always fun to reverse their flip on them. They always fall for that.

I have heard good things about Jeet Kune Do, Akido, and Judo. I have heard negative from Karate, Tai Chi, and Taekwondo former students who said it was OK or lacking.

The best thing is to pick something and get awsome with it. The likelyhood of you going up against someone on the street who knows this stuff is low. Especially if you are very proficient.

As far as what you learn: that depends on your commitment and the skills of your instructor. Find out why the instuctor is teaching. Do they want to win lots of competitions. Do they want students to open Dojos? Do they want to show off? Are they purely a high volume/low quality money maker? Are they practicianers who want to share their knowledge and skill? Finding an instructor is like learning where to shoot. A military sniper is better than many others because of the knowledge, experience, and facilities that they have compared to civilians. Same applies to martial arts.



Yeah... all that and blah blah blah.
Kung Fu is worthless, you will never use it in a fight. And as far as Aikdio goes, you will likely only benefit from your training if you get attacked by someones grandmother.

Go find an MMA tournament, and get back to us as to how well your Kung Fu did for you there Neo...
*sigh*
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 6:21:05 PM EDT
Whatever you decide, make sure the school you go to allows you to spar with the other students, thats where you learn the most, IMO.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 12:07:43 PM EDT
Does BJJ have any kicks/strikes in the system or is it just grappling?I'm looking at getting back into the martial arts and one of the schools near me (Las Vegas) is a BJJ school.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 12:12:36 PM EDT
Muay Thai hands down. BJJ is a sport. THD, Karate, Savate=Crapp. By Capopetra, I saaume you mean CAPOEIRA, not practical. You should really think twice about instructor credibility if all of these are available at one school, especially if their are few instructors. Reccomend Kali-Escrima as a second and Akido third.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 12:33:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SGT_GRUNT_USMC:
Does BJJ have any kicks/strikes in the system or is it just grappling?I'm looking at getting back into the martial arts and one of the schools near me (Las Vegas) is a BJJ school.

- It greatly depends on who is teaching it in my opinion. A lot of schools now either have some kind of striking added to the curiculum through cross-training done by the trainer or they bring in some to teach the stand-up material. In a BJJ school, you stand the greatest chance of seeing Muay Thai being taught in conjunction with it.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 12:55:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/15/2006 1:02:44 PM EDT by Jorge-Arbusto]

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:

Originally Posted By SGT_GRUNT_USMC:
Does BJJ have any kicks/strikes in the system or is it just grappling?I'm looking at getting back into the martial arts and one of the schools near me (Las Vegas) is a BJJ school.

- It greatly depends on who is teaching it in my opinion. A lot of schools now either have some kind of striking added to the curiculum through cross-training done by the trainer or they bring in some to teach the stand-up material. In a BJJ school, you stand the greatest chance of seeing Muay Thai being taught in conjunction with it.



Agreed, this is where the term MMA actually originated, MT for stand up, and BJJ for ground.
And, although many dont want to admit it, all fights go to the ground... except for knockouts, which are rare, even with the best fighters in the world.

And, speaking of BJJ alone, only the most skilled fighter’s aren’t easily taken to the ground. When I started training BJJ, even before MT... I found it effortless to take black belts in TKD and Kung Fu to the ground. MT is not as critical a component unless you are against a skilled fighter.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 1:00:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mattl:
Muay Thai hands down. BJJ is a sport. THD, Karate, Savate=Crapp. By Capopetra, I saaume you mean CAPOEIRA, not practical. You should really think twice about instructor credibility if all of these are available at one school, especially if their are few instructors. Reccomend Kali-Escrima as a second and Akido third.



BJJ is a sport; don’t you mean Judo is a sport?
And you recommend Aikido, over BJJ… are you OUT OF YOUR F'ING MIND??? Show me where was Aikido has EVER been used in NHB fighting… such as Vale Tudo, or the early days of UFC… you wont be able to!!!

You sure you’re qualified to post in here buddy....*laughs and raises the BS flag*
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 1:09:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/15/2006 1:11:34 PM EDT by Mattl]

Originally Posted By Jorge-Arbusto:

Originally Posted By Mattl:
Muay Thai hands down. BJJ is a sport. THD, Karate, Savate=Crapp. By Capopetra, I saaume you mean CAPOEIRA, not practical. You should really think twice about instructor credibility if all of these are available at one school, especially if their are few instructors. Reccomend Kali-Escrima as a second and Akido third.



BJJ is a sport; don’t you mean Judo is a sport?
And you recommend Aikido, over BJJ… are you OUT OF YOUR F'ING MIND??? Show me where was Aikido has EVER been used in NHB fighting… such as Vale Tudo, or the early days of UFC… you wont be able to!!!

You sure you’re qualified to post in here buddy....*laughs and raises the BS flag*



Brown belts in Judo and Traditional JuJutsu as well as a background in TKD and Shotokan, no qualifications at all. Go fuck yourself.

Fucking Gracie worshippers you are some irritating pricks, oddly enough the only one I have been able to stand was one of my instructors.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 5:01:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/15/2006 5:03:56 PM EDT by Jorge-Arbusto]

Originally Posted By Mattl:
Brown belts in Judo and Traditional JuJutsu as well as a background in TKD and Shotokan, no qualifications at all. Go fuck yourself.




Hey peckerwood... when you say BJJ is a sport, but recommend Aikido, you have to expect this! Aikido, just like Kung Fu, is for pussies; I guess that struck a little too close to home for you?



Fucking Gracie worshippers you are some irritating pricks, oddly enough the only one I have been able to stand was one of my instructors.



It's not Gracie worship, but more a lesson in history... show me something that works better than a well rounded fighter both trained in Boxing/Muay Thai, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and I'll stand corrected.

You guys and your little ‘wristy twisty’ faggot art… it seems like every time I meet someone that studies Aikido they’ve got a pony tail to go with it. So what the hell does this make you guys, other than Segal Worshipers? The only man in the world that can say he is as big a poser as Frank Dux!!!

Now… before everyone that trains Aikido hates me, I will say that there are SOME valid aspects, but only if you work in LE or you are a bouncer at a club. I say this because those are the only two times where you will instantly have the incumbent advantage.

But, that theory of small circles, hand-trap shit makes me want to kill myself. And the BS really gets thick when they say that they don’t have to fight because they can defend themselves. Nobody ever one a scrap by blocking… go get into a fight, tell me if you are able to catch a fist in a fight. I’d love to hear about it.


Link Posted: 1/15/2006 5:43:30 PM EDT
Judo and Muay Thai. That is what you should study to learn to kick ass.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 5:47:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Jorge-Arbusto:
Judo = great place to learn take downs… but it is only a low-cal diet version of sport Jiu-Jitsu, and traditional Japanese Jiu-Jitsu, is a low-cal, diet version of BJJ. Why not just study BJJ?



Bah, you are another BJJ nut hugger. I bet you think BJJ is the only real grapple. Why don't you go look up how Heilo Gracie got his elbow broken, ah hell I'll just tell you. Heilo Gracie got his elbow broken by a Judoka

Oh and Krap Magnum is teh suk.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 6:51:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SGT_GRUNT_USMC:
Does BJJ have any kicks/strikes in the system or is it just grappling?I'm looking at getting back into the martial arts and one of the schools near me (Las Vegas) is a BJJ school.



Check out Cobra Kai jiu-jitsu in Vegas. They have a great BJJ program and last time I was there, they had a complete cage built and were offering MMA training.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 8:39:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/15/2006 8:41:21 PM EDT by Jorge-Arbusto]

Originally Posted By ffsparky26:
Bah, you are another BJJ nut hugger. I bet you think BJJ is the only real grapple. Why don't you go look up how Heilo Gracie got his elbow broken, ah hell I'll just tell you. Heilo Gracie got his elbow broken by a Judoka.



I really don’t care to have a Judo-vs-BJJ discussion with someone using a historic fight of a 5’6”, 200lb freak of nature in his twenties breaking the arm of a middle-aged man weighing half as much. And besides, the fight was called by the Gracie family for fear of irreparable damage…. Helio was enraged by this decision as I understand it.

History almost repeated itself with the arm break Tim Silvia suffered from Frank Mir. Tim didn’t want to stop the fight, and has won more than a few fights with high leg kicks; point being that Tim Silvia could have kicked even with a broken arm. So what’s your point… it’s possible to have an injury when two trained fighters go to work on each other full force?

You’re talking to someone who has an orthopedic surgeon on his Christmas card list btw.



Oh and Krap Magnum is teh suk.



One more thing; not all of us have an idiot’s thesaurus, so you will have to explain that teh suk means.

Oh… and don’t call me nut-hugger, you wouldn’t do it too my face, so there’s no need to hurl insults from the security of the internet.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:27:02 AM EDT
imho, i would look into
aikido, BJJ, JKD, Judo, and MT.
and yes, all of them will serve you well and teach you important aspects which can be incorporated in your own style.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 1:09:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 1:11:09 PM EDT by Jorge-Arbusto]

Originally Posted By Cigolon:
imho, i would look into
aikido, BJJ, JKD, Judo, and MT.
and yes, all of them will serve you well and teach you important aspects which can be incorporated in your own style.



Don't you mean Wing Tsun?
How are those knuckles BTW?
he he he...
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 2:30:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Jorge-Arbusto:

Originally Posted By Cigolon:
imho, i would look into
aikido, BJJ, JKD, Judo, and MT.
and yes, all of them will serve you well and teach you important aspects which can be incorporated in your own style.



Don't you mean Wing Tsun?
How are those knuckles BTW?
he he he...




aw. did your old account get locked for being a jackass or what?

no, i said what i ment. learning multiple styles is great. you are too good for that.
your wisdom never ends.
my dogs wisdom never ends either.
but then again, he thinks sniffing another dogs butt is a good fun afternoon.

if he had WT up there, i would have told him to take that as well. anything that has any functional aspect to it is useful. not everyone uses one art and in fact, most people use a mixed style.

*shrugs* the fact that you think otherwise makes me smile.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 7:57:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 9:11:58 PM EDT by Jorge-Arbusto]

Originally Posted By Cigolon:
if he had WT up there, i would have told him to take that as well…



Understand, you would have recomended Wing Tsun Kung Fu as well… excellent.
I would like to know who has ever used it effectively in a fight, other than you of course?

Speaking of, can you tell us more about your Kung Fu fighting experience? I think there was once an encounter where you posted w/other users about having scissor kicked in a fight, or having defeated 3 to 4 people simultaneously while sparring? In fact, you claim to harden your knuckles by punching clay pots filled with sand, but wont post a picture of them,

Here are your comments; it went on and on and on:
www.jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=113&t=383852&page=10

You are a liar… and, just like the Krap Maga titty-bar warrior, there is no room for you hear, you posting is not welcome.
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