Posted: 11/29/2011 5:20:17 PM EDT
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Thought I'd leave this here since many are interested in barefoot/minimalist running
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/11/barefoot-running-round-table-discussion.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+blogspot%2FcJKs+%28The+Science+of+Sport%29 |
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H46 have you seen Dan Empfields(from slowtwitch.com) articles against this? He is a believer that he and many of his peers can't run today because of the minimalist shoes they all wore in in the 70's.
I don't know what I believe yet, but he does make some good counter points to the whole minimalist fad. He also lists many of his fellow competitors from back in the day who are equally munked up and can't run. These dudes were the cream of the crop in Ca. in the 70's so some probably had some good run mechanics. Thoughts? |
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H46 have you seen Dan Empfields(from slowtwitch.com) articles against this? He is a believer that he and many of his peers can't run today because of the minimalist shoes they all wore in in the 70's. I don't know what I believe yet, but he does make some good counter points to the whole minimalist fad. He also lists many of his fellow competitors from back in the day who are equally munked up and can't run. These dudes were the cream of the crop in Ca. in the 70's so some probably had some good run mechanics. Thoughts? Can you post a link, Id love to read that. |
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H46 have you seen Dan Empfields(from slowtwitch.com) articles against this? He is a believer that he and many of his peers can't run today because of the minimalist shoes they all wore in in the 70's. I don't know what I believe yet, but he does make some good counter points to the whole minimalist fad. He also lists many of his fellow competitors from back in the day who are equally munked up and can't run. These dudes were the cream of the crop in Ca. in the 70's so some probably had some good run mechanics. Thoughts? Serious question, not trying to be a smart ass at all, can any competitive runners from the 70s or even 80s still run good today? Most marathon runners that I know didn't make it to long in the sport before some type of injury left them not running very well. |
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H46 have you seen Dan Empfields(from slowtwitch.com) articles against this? He is a believer that he and many of his peers can't run today because of the minimalist shoes they all wore in in the 70's. I don't know what I believe yet, but he does make some good counter points to the whole minimalist fad. He also lists many of his fellow competitors from back in the day who are equally munked up and can't run. These dudes were the cream of the crop in Ca. in the 70's so some probably had some good run mechanics. Thoughts? Serious question, not trying to be a smart ass at all, can any competitive runners from the 70s or even 80s still run good today? Most marathon runners that I know didn't make it to long in the sport before some type of injury left them not running very well. There have been a couple guys on Competitor radio who are still going strong - Alberto Salazar I believe is still running. I think most elite athletes lose interest a bit after competing at a high level for years. For them, exercise was a job not a hobby. A fun job, but still a job and if they aren't winning, they aren't terribly interested in racing. |
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There have been a couple guys on Competitor radio who are still going strong - Alberto Salazar I believe is still running. I think most elite athletes lose interest a bit after competing at a high level for years. For them, exercise was a job not a hobby. A fun job, but still a job and if they aren't winning, they aren't terribly interested in racing. Their pace slows because their bodies are wearing out. They just aren't physically capable of competing at the highest levels anymore. When you're not in it to win it anymore there isn't much incentive to race (at a pro level). |
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i am sorry but i need my shoes, i am not going to ruin my feet This is one thing that has always interested me. Even though there is some science backing the barefoot trend and its worked for quite a few people, there is definitely an issue of how the body will react to hard surfaces with no cushion and high impact forces. This was evident this last year when metatarsal stress fracture occurrences in runners went up 200%. No one has a done a long term study of how the body reacts to this sort of thing. If youve got any background at all in exercise science youve got to believe with some of the current issues/trends it cant be one of longevity. |
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Heavy heel striker, hyper-extended my right knee 12 years ago, still causes pain. When I run, my knee hurts. Bought some VFF's (minimalist toe shoes) about 6 months ago, and they forced my stride to change. Now, with forefoot strike, no pain. None in my knee. Growing pain issues with my calves, but that was short lived. However, this changed my outlook on running. Something I have done for 20+ years for exercise, is now something I do for fun. I don't plod along knocking out miles, I glide along now, and go until my body says to stop. Some days that's 3 miles, some days that's 10. Before, 1.5 to 3 miles on schedule, and quit if the pain told me to. Started trying to settle into a more mid-foot stride, and then pain came right back. I've been side-lined for about 2 months now because of the knee pain. I'll stick to forefoot strike because I must. Might not be for everyone, but it seems to be the only choice I have. I have no professional need to be superfast. 20min 5k is good enough for me, and I can do that barefoot, or with VFF's. So, that's what I'll do.
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Pretty interesting stuff. So much to learn about the human body, it's pretty humbing to realize how little even the smart people know sometimes. I run in these:  I like them a lot. Very little heel, but still enough protection. This is the thing though- I rarely run over 3 miles, and if I did I'd probably wear my Inov-8s that have a bit more cushion. I also don't run "Pose"...I have sort of a mid-foot strike that feels natural to me. Heel striking is uncomfortable for me as I feel like I;m trying to pound the pavement into submission. Here's another thing- I've been running in some fashion for 12 years, and I eased VERY slowly in the minimal running shoes thing, and avoided injury doing so. All in all, I like minimal running shoes- though I think they are NOT for everyone, certainly not for beginners and I suspect that certain body types may not react well to them. This is all conjecture based on observations of people who have/have not been injured so YMMV. |
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Heavy heel striker, hyper-extended my right knee 12 years ago, still causes pain. When I run, my knee hurts. Bought some VFF's (minimalist toe shoes) about 6 months ago, and they forced my stride to change. Now, with forefoot strike, no pain. None in my knee. Growing pain issues with my calves, but that was short lived. However, this changed my outlook on running. Something I have done for 20+ years for exercise, is now something I do for fun. I don't plod along knocking out miles, I glide along now, and go until my body says to stop. Some days that's 3 miles, some days that's 10. Before, 1.5 to 3 miles on schedule, and quit if the pain told me to. Started trying to settle into a more mid-foot stride, and then pain came right back. I've been side-lined for about 2 months now because of the knee pain. I'll stick to forefoot strike because I must. Might not be for everyone, but it seems to be the only choice I have. I have no professional need to be superfast. 20min 5k is good enough for me, and I can do that barefoot, or with VFF's. So, that's what I'll do. Lets get something stright. The shoes didnt force you to change your form, you had to adjust your form in order to run in them. I hate when I hear this. Its like people think the shoe will do it for them. You have to cognitively change your form in a shoe like this, or you will hurt yourself. The shoe doesnt do anything differently, your body does. |
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I can't find the original article. Here are a couple along the same topic: http://www.slowtwitch.com/Products/Running_Footwear_by_brand/The_Great_Running_Debate_1879.html
And for the shoe technolgy inclined among you: http://www.slowtwitch.com/Products/Running_Footwear_by_type/Shoe_Height_and_Ramp_Angle_1948.html |
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i am sorry but i need my shoes, i am not going to ruin my feet This is one thing that has always interested me. Even though there is some science backing the barefoot trend and its worked for quite a few people, there is definitely an issue of how the body will react to hard surfaces with no cushion and high impact forces. This was evident this last year when metatarsal stress fracture occurrences in runners went up 200%. No one has a done a long term study of how the body reacts to this sort of thing. If youve got any background at all in exercise science youve got to believe with some of the current issues/trends it cant be one of longevity. The increase in stress fractures is most likely due to runners not allowing time for their body to adapt to the new shoes and style of running. You can't spend decades running in cushioned athletic shoes and then just slip on some minimalist shoes and go run. Running on the ball of your feet has lower impact force than running on the heel. I have never been much of a runner due to back and knee issues. When I got my Vibram Five Fingers, it took about 2 weeks for my legs and feet to adjust. My calves were on fire during that time. Running on the ball of my feet has allowed me to run more than I ever have in my life. It's more about the technique than the shoes but the shoes force that technique on you. I wear my Vibrams all the time other than at work. My wife prefers her Merrell minimalist shoes over any others she owns also. My knee pain has been drastically reduced. ETA: Minimalist shoes should be a tool in the box to use when the time is right. I also have boots, and hiking/outdoor shoes for terrain and weather that does not work well for minimalist shoes. |
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i am sorry but i need my shoes, i am not going to ruin my feet This is one thing that has always interested me. Even though there is some science backing the barefoot trend and its worked for quite a few people, there is definitely an issue of how the body will react to hard surfaces with no cushion and high impact forces. This was evident this last year when metatarsal stress fracture occurrences in runners went up 200%. No one has a done a long term study of how the body reacts to this sort of thing. If youve got any background at all in exercise science youve got to believe with some of the current issues/trends it cant be one of longevity. The increase in stress fractures is most likely due to runners not allowing time for their body to adapt to the new shoes and style of running. You can't spend decades running in cushioned athletic shoes and then just slip on some minimalist shoes and go run. Running on the ball of your feet has lower impact force than running on the heel. I have never been much of a runner due to back and knee issues. When I got my Vibram Five Fingers, it took about 2 weeks for my legs and feet to adjust. My calves were on fire during that time. Running on the ball of my feet has allowed me to run more than I ever have in my life. It's more about the technique than the shoes but the shoes force that technique on you. I wear my Vibrams all the time other than at work. My wife prefers her Merrell minimalist shoes over any others she owns also. My knee pain has been drastically reduced. ETA: Minimalist shoes should be a tool in the box to use when the time is right. I also have boots, and hiking/outdoor shoes for terrain and weather that does not work well for minimalist shoes. I agree that probably to many people didnt give transition enough time, but I think the modality itself had more to with the stress fractures than the lack of adaptation time. (ie running on hard surfaces) I know guys who have been transitioning for over a year and they ended up with stress fractures. Asphalt and concrete tend to be harsh on your body regardless of running form. Where did you read what I highlighted in red? Because this is wrong. The force is exactly the same amplitude as a heel strike. The only difference is the impulse force, which is much sharper in a heel striker. This may be whats causing the issue in heel strikers, but it has nothing to do with the force being less. Its the same force in a longer period. I agree with you on it being a tool. I know many people its helped run again. Whats the purpose of walking in the minimal shoes? Do you walk on the balls of your feet? Are you accelerating when you walk like you run? If the answer is no to those questions, youre probably not gaining anything by wearing them daily. |
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I admit to getting caught up in the 'fad' and jumping right in, first with Inov-8 195's. It only took a couple short runs before instinct slapped me upside the noggin and I increased my heel thickness with a pair of Inov-8 230's. Those are still too thin for me to use on pavement, but perfect for the trail. So I went slightly thicker with Nike Free 3.0 V3. Actually, I went to the Nike ID online store and built my own, using the V3 sole and the V2 upper. The V2 upper is more supportive than the minimalist V3 upper. These are the perfect do-everything shoes for me. I can run on the road, I can jump on boxes and I can safely move barbells. The sole is considerably thinner and more free-flexing than the squishy running shoes I have worn in the past, but is just thick enough to be forgiving to a mediocre, short-distance runner like me. I can feel my foot muscles and lower leg muscles getting worked like they never did in thick running shoes, but not to the point of any pain or discomfort.
One problem I have found with minimal shoes is that they take a beating during rope climbing. Listen to your body, peeps. |
The only time I will ever be caught in that shoe is if I had to run a fast one mile. It is certainly not a shoe designed for a distance runner and anyone who claims to be able to run distance in that thing is crazy lol I luv my Asics they have gotten me through 3,000 + miles of running. 
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The only time I will ever be caught in that shoe is if I had to run a fast one mile. It is certainly not a shoe designed for a distance runner and anyone who claims to be able to run distance in that thing is crazy lol I luv my Asics they have gotten me through 3,000 + miles of running. 3,000 this year? What I got out of the article/discussion was that for some people forefoot/minimalist shoes work and may be a good thing, for others they are not, and either way there is a learning curve to find out without causing injury. Maybe four years ago I went to the vibrams for a while. I am not a heavy heal striker but I run a lot of trails and roll a lot of ankles. The vibrams are popular on the ultra trail running scene and for the most part don't seem to be causing much trouble other than some bruised up toes, but these guys tend to know what they are doing. For me they didn't really do anything and I hate pose running. Now they are my kayaking shoes. I have a hell of a lot of miles under my feet and that's a lot of muscle memory to fight. As someone at the round-table explained, consciously trying to change your form is a bad thing. I have no knee problems and for me it's just not a worth the effort for what little increase in efficiency I might see. |
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I recently got a pair of Inov-8 195s. After the first few runs my feet and hips were sore in places that have never been sore before but my knee problems have disappeared.
Initially i got them strictly for running/lifting. I wear them all the time now and will be purchasing more. |