Posted: 10/22/2016 10:15:55 AM EDT
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Any of our experienced members here have pointers for someone new to gas gun precision rifles?
I had a lot of difficulty getting consistent groups the other day. I would fire an MOA sized group than it would open up on the next string of fire. I read something about follow through. Can anyone go more in depth on that? The benches at my range are concrete so loading the bipod is nearly impossible. Would shooting off a ruck or some sort of shooting bag help? |
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Shooting semi auto rifles capable of precision is similar to shooting double action reviolvers. The .223 and 6.5 / 6.8 varieties are easier to get bolt action like groups with, because their recoil cycle is lighter.
If you can see your heart beat in the reticle you are too much on the gun. Just get behind it and hug up on the stock. Grip the grip, but not hard. Left hand controls the squeeze bag and controls the reticle. The shooter is only there to catch recoil. Let the rifle do its thing after you provide its back stop. This shooting cycle can result in being ready to send a second precision shot in as soon as your eyes and left hand can re align the cross hairs. Your right hand on the pistol grip is just along for the ride while it provides the positioning to your trigger finger. |
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What's your rifle setup? Is it capable of good accuracy? How about your experience? Free floated Rainier Match 18" 308, Elfmann Tactical single stage trigger, UBR stock, ADM scope mount, and Razor HD 5-20 glass. Ammo is Hornady 155 AMAX and 168 FGMM. I'm very experienced on bolt guns, not so much on gassers.I could routinely shoot sub MOA with my old bolt rifle. |
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Free floated Rainier Match 18" 308, Elfmann Tactical single stage trigger, UBR stock, ADM scope mount, and Razor HD 5-20 glass. Ammo is Hornady 155 AMAX and 168 FGMM. I'm very experienced on bolt guns, not so much on gassers.I could routinely shoot sub MOA with my old bolt rifle. Quoted:
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What's your rifle setup? Is it capable of good accuracy? How about your experience? Free floated Rainier Match 18" 308, Elfmann Tactical single stage trigger, UBR stock, ADM scope mount, and Razor HD 5-20 glass. Ammo is Hornady 155 AMAX and 168 FGMM. I'm very experienced on bolt guns, not so much on gassers.I could routinely shoot sub MOA with my old bolt rifle. Why you no tell us your bipod? 
Yes, pull bipod and bag front and rear. Best to you. |
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Free floated Rainier Match 18" 308, Elfmann Tactical single stage trigger, UBR stock, ADM scope mount, and Razor HD 5-20 glass. Ammo is Hornady 155 AMAX and 168 FGMM. I'm very experienced on bolt guns, not so much on gassers.I could routinely shoot sub MOA with my old bolt rifle. Quoted:
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What's your rifle setup? Is it capable of good accuracy? How about your experience? Free floated Rainier Match 18" 308, Elfmann Tactical single stage trigger, UBR stock, ADM scope mount, and Razor HD 5-20 glass. Ammo is Hornady 155 AMAX and 168 FGMM. I'm very experienced on bolt guns, not so much on gassers.I could routinely shoot sub MOA with my old bolt rifle. You should be able to get there pretty quick then. Might I recommend the Accuracy First, by Todd Hadnett Also, how many rounds are you loading in a magazine? A good method when starting out is to load one at a time, then just enough for whatever group you are trying to shoot. Where a bolt action forces you to reset your body after every shot, a semi lets you get super sloppy fast even though it's not intentional. |
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Why you no tell us your bipod? http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/004/006/y-u-no-guy.jpg Yes, pull bipod and bag front and rear. Best to you. Quoted:
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What's your rifle setup? Is it capable of good accuracy? How about your experience? Free floated Rainier Match 18" 308, Elfmann Tactical single stage trigger, UBR stock, ADM scope mount, and Razor HD 5-20 glass. Ammo is Hornady 155 AMAX and 168 FGMM. I'm very experienced on bolt guns, not so much on gassers.I could routinely shoot sub MOA with my old bolt rifle. Why you no tell us your bipod? http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/004/006/y-u-no-guy.jpg Yes, pull bipod and bag front and rear. Best to you. I didn't think it was that important. Its a Harris BRM S. |
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You should be able to get there pretty quick then. Might I recommend the Accuracy First, by Todd Hadnett Also, how many rounds are you loading in a magazine? A good method when starting out is to load one at a time, then just enough for whatever group you are trying to shoot. Where a bolt action forces you to reset your body after every shot, a semi lets you get super sloppy fast even though it's not intentional. Quoted:
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What's your rifle setup? Is it capable of good accuracy? How about your experience? Free floated Rainier Match 18" 308, Elfmann Tactical single stage trigger, UBR stock, ADM scope mount, and Razor HD 5-20 glass. Ammo is Hornady 155 AMAX and 168 FGMM. I'm very experienced on bolt guns, not so much on gassers.I could routinely shoot sub MOA with my old bolt rifle. You should be able to get there pretty quick then. Might I recommend the Accuracy First, by Todd Hadnett Also, how many rounds are you loading in a magazine? A good method when starting out is to load one at a time, then just enough for whatever group you are trying to shoot. Where a bolt action forces you to reset your body after every shot, a semi lets you get super sloppy fast even though it's not intentional. Thanks for the suggestions. I'm loading with 5 or 10 rounds in a 10 round Pmag. Ill give the 1 round at a time thing a try next time I go out . |
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I didn't think it was that important. Its a Harris BRM S. Quoted:
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What's your rifle setup? Is it capable of good accuracy? How about your experience? Free floated Rainier Match 18" 308, Elfmann Tactical single stage trigger, UBR stock, ADM scope mount, and Razor HD 5-20 glass. Ammo is Hornady 155 AMAX and 168 FGMM. I'm very experienced on bolt guns, not so much on gassers.I could routinely shoot sub MOA with my old bolt rifle. Why you no tell us your bipod? http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/004/006/y-u-no-guy.jpg Yes, pull bipod and bag front and rear. Best to you. I didn't think it was that important. Its a Harris BRM S. Not loading a bipod correctly is one of the easiest ways to make your target look like a drawing for a sieve. |
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http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_16_4/42_Hellbenders_guides_to_Ultimate_AR15_and_or_AR10.html
A lot of the stuff recommended there will make your rifle smoother. The smoother it is the easier it will be to shoot. |
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When I shoot off a bench, I leave the bipod on, but keep it folded sometimes and place the folded legs on a front bag.
This provides more stability for me for rotational torque around the bore axis, which can be excessive with a .308 Win. The more consistent your position is shot-to-shot, the tighter the groups will be. Following the accuracy build techniques mentioned in Hellbender's Guide will eliminate a lot of variables. Make sure to use a torque wrench and balance out all your scope ring screws, with recommended torque on them, not heavy torque. I normally use about 18 inch-pounds on scope rings like you see on ADM. Also, there should be no torque on the muzzle device. Use precision shims to install if it needs to be clocked, and Rocksett or Red Loc Tite. I find that I have to man up on the large frame ARs a bit more, especially if the gas system is excessively gassed. |
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When I shoot off a bench, I leave the bipod on, but keep it folded sometimes and place the folded legs on a front bag. This provides more stability for me for rotational torque around the bore axis, which can be excessive with a .308 Win. The more consistent your position is shot-to-shot, the tighter the groups will be. Following the accuracy build techniques mentioned in Hellbender's Guide will eliminate a lot of variables. Make sure to use a torque wrench and balance out all your scope ring screws, with recommended torque on them, not heavy torque. I normally use about 18 inch-pounds on scope rings like you see on ADM. Also, there should be no torque on the muzzle device. Use precision shims to install if it needs to be clocked, and Rocksett or Red Loc Tite. I find that I have to man up on the large frame ARs a bit more, especially if the gas system is excessively gassed. That's a good idea, I like the folded legs on a bag thing. I honestly think the rifle itself is plenty accurate, its my novice form on a gas gun that's screwing things up in my opinion. |
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I love Gas Guns.
But they require some additional aspect to be consistent with over bolt action rifles. 1. Preload the Bipod (or lean into the rest). This is very important with most setups and even more so with semi auto rifles. 2. FOLLOW THRU. This is often overlooked by people who usually shoot bolt action rigs. Semi Auto rifles require consistent follow thru after each shot. Keep the trigger held to the rear throughout the recoil impulse and stay on the scope. Release only after the rifle has gone thru its recoil movement. |
| Shooting a gas gun off a bipod takes practice. I've just gotten to where I can say I'm decent/repeatable off a bipod. Try shooting off a bag in the front and using a rear bag first, then move to the bipod. Like others have said, with the grip hand, it's only there for a trigger finger. I've actually found I'm more accurate when I unwrap my thumb from around the grip and put all my fingers on one side of the grip, then just use just my trigger finger. (Saw that method on one of the videos, either Accuracy first or Magpuls precision video and tried it) |
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Look around snipershide a bit. I don't particularly like the guy that runs it, but there is a lot of good info there. Here is a start: |
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I have instructed many LR shooters on bolt and gas operation systems.
Next time you go the range set your phone up directly beside you and take a short vid of you shooting a 5 shot group and post your vid here. We will be able to tell a lot from this. Everything else is just speculation at this point. |
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Loading the bipod and trigger follow through are the two most important things to do when shooting a semi auto. Pushing slight forward on the bipod and holding the trigger back all the way through the recoil of the rifle is crucial. Once you require your target and are ready to fire another round is when you start to reset the trigger. If you do these two things you will be consistent and accurate.
One other thing that I have to do is align my right forearm directly with the stock of the rifle. This allows precise alignment of my finger on the trigger. I can get a little sloppy on a bolt gun but not on the AR-10. |
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Many years ago, I had a great shooting instructor (from Gunsite) who used to randomly place dummy rounds into my magazine. He would watch me closely while I shot and could see clearly when I flinched, pulled or did not follow through properly. It was extremely enlightening and improved my marksmanship immensely.
I started on front and rear bags, then went to a bipod and rear bag after a few years. Hope this helps.... |
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I load the bipod a little, Get half breath, and make sure the gun is mostly neutral on target. If I am holding or muscling the gun in any way I re-position. The release is key I have found, and being consistent on the trigger is important. I rest (drag?) my finger on the trigger guard into the first stage of the trigger. I do it every time I shoot.
The visual on release is almost like a blink. When the gun goes off, I should have an exact mental image of where I was on the target (I can call the shot well) If I don't have that, it means I did not concentrate, or I fatigued my eyes. I shoot gas guns for a living now, so that's a plus! ETA!!! Stage Fright! Do not worry about the group down range, focus on the mechanics of the gun, and what you are doing for each individual shot! I have done it a hundred times, I get 4 shots into a 1/2 MOA group, get tense on that 5th, and it all goes out the window as I pull one off target. Less focus on cool groups, more focus on mechanical and technique, and the groups will happen. Assuming the gun shoots good. 
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Im consistently shooting under a 1/2" with 68gr Hornady BTHP loaded over 24gr 8208 XBR. Granted, this is a 223, but the mechanics are the same, breath, consistent POA, trigger control, follow through.
That being said, the only thing I would change on the gun would be the stock. I went from a CTR stock to a PRS and immediately seen my groups improve about a 1/4" because I had a more balanced rifle (less front heavy) and the rifle tracked better (using a rabbit ear). One other thing to consider is what gas block are you using? I know that sounds like it shouldnt matter, but on the follow thru if the rifle is recoiling less, it makes your job easier. This is a point where if you really want to chase accuracy, then starting to reload will help. Factory ammo is only so good. I do not use a bipod, just a cheap Caldwell turret rest (think like $40), so I cant speak to that. Specifics on my rifle are 18" Green Mtn 8 twist barrel, 4-16x44 Vortex Diamondback scope, Aero mount, PRS stock, Aero upper and lower, and Geissele SSA-E trigger. This gun will be getting a new barrel this year, most likely a 22" 223 Wylde, made by Brux. Because saying you can shoot under a 1/2" and actually doing it are two different things. Heres a pic of the target under a 1/2" with this rifle: https://goo.gl/photos/cLF7CYV981553CJy8 Cant use Google to bring photos into a forum 
This load would actually benefit from better case prep, and using all of the same headstamp brass. Could possibly see groups around a 1/4". Too bad I had a flier on this target. |
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Loading the bipod and trigger follow through are the two most important things to do when shooting a semi auto. Pushing slight forward on the bipod and holding the trigger back all the way through the recoil of the rifle is crucial. Once you require your target and are ready to fire another round is when you start to reset the trigger. If you do these two things you will be consistent and accurate. One other thing that I have to do is align my right forearm directly with the stock of the rifle. This allows precise alignment of my finger on the trigger. I can get a little sloppy on a bolt gun but not on the AR-10. I disagree with you in that bipod loading and follow through are the "most" important aspects of shooting a precision semi auto. A semi auto requires ALL fundamentals of marksmanship to be on point, one is no more "important" than another. However, you need to have a quality and consistent cheek weld when shooting a gas gun. This is often overlooked. The gas system, itself, should be considered as well. More violent recoil impulses need to be "tamed," as those higher pressures induce a cycling time that can fuck with accuracy. Adjustable GB's need to be addressed, there is a reason they have become more popular. I can shoot my JP's off of bags, no bipods, and get excellent results. Furthermore, I don't load the bipod anymore with my gassers than I do my bolt guns. |
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Three fundamentals I find specific to the AR style semi auto. All have been mentioned but deserve mentioning again.
Pistol grip...don't grip it like a pistol. Keep your trigger finger in line with the trigger. Usually gripping the pistol grip too high will result in the trigger finger pointing down at the trigger. No bueno. Follow through. These rifles actually have three recoils and you need to hang on to that trigger till it's all done. At first you might have to exaggerate it, but learn it. If you're not hearing the reset when you release the trigger, you're not holding it long enough and not following through. Loading the biopd, if you're using one. You don't have to put a lot of weight on it, just make sure it's got a little forward pressure on it. After that, all the basic accuracy practices apply. Center of the finger pad on the trigger, squeeze don't jerk, good breathing, consistency, relax, etc. |
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I believe in a high grip, but not as firm like a pistol. The trigger tends to align just left of the first bend, or in between the first and second bend.
8:03-9:23  LaRue Tactical MBT Test | Aug 2015 HP Rifle Match |