Inspired by CavScout8's own accuracy issues & not wanting to hijack his thread or cloud the solution, I've worked up enough guts to post a plea for assistance with my own turd of a rifle. I am by no means an expert on the AR platform or at long range shooting. I do not reload, yet. I enjoy the learning process & as I go thru it, so do my 2 adult sons that share a love of shooting sports.

Rifle specs:
DPMS upper & lower
24" HBAR fluted - 1/10 twist barrel from DEZ Arms (advertised as a match barrel)
Giessele 2 stage adjustable trigger (Hi-Speed Match Trigger)
JP Brake
The barrel is close to 1k round count.
Here's the setup:



I went thru a lot of different ammunition of varying grain weights & bullet types.
Shot groups with the brake installed & without which didn't make a huge difference in accuracy at least for me.
Since I went thru so many kinds of ammo, from here on out, I will only be shooting the better performing ammunition as I weed out the problems.
There was lots of good advice from CavScout8's thread & I'll be trying those out as some won't cost me anymore money.
I've ordered a set of Burris PEPR mounts.
I'm going to pull the barrel off & re-torque it.
I will shoot my next round of groups prone from the concrete slab as my folding table bench setup is not very sturdy.
I'll install the scope on my friends bolt gun & shoot it for comparison.
Confirm I have the parallax adjusted properly, LaRue posted a good video on that.
These are my short term objectives, longer term goals include buying better glass & if needed, a better barrel. I hope that I'm not implying that any of this equipment is inferior, I'm not. In some other more experienced shooters hands, It may be a 1 MOA stick, I'm following the advice of more experienced shooters that may have already gone thru this.

The Groups of some of the more popular stuff:














Here's some groups from some other stuff:






























This might seem excessive but it was fun & frustrating at the same time. Worst part was drilling 3 holes all touching in a row then blowing the group wide with a lousy shot This has been a long process for me due to time restraints & other grown up commitments but I hope to come to some resolution in the next month or two. Thanks for any advise you may have.

Not to be rude but I think you need more practice.

Different targets demonstrate different trends, it looks like solid foundations but you need to bring all the pieces together.  Focus on all the basics for every shot.  Might help to load one round at a time in a magazine and do that for a while, you'd probably notice a difference in the groups.

Ya think? I totally agree. I can tell you that my reticle fits perfectly in the white cross in those targets at 100yds. I know a lot of shots felt good. Proof tho is on the paper. When I resume practicing, I'll load 1 at a time & see how I do.

Is the scope Nikon?

Does the front scope mount straddle the joint between the upper receiver and handguard rails?

Plank:

I will have a stab at this and you and everyone else may think I am being a dick but I am trying to be honest.

Are you capable of sub MOA groups with a gas gun? Are you capable of sub MOA groups with a bolt gun...or any gun?

Your gun looks like it prefers certain loads, perhaps the Hornady Match. Overall you are shooting blaster ammo and expecting match ammo results. If you continue down this line the next 1000 rounds will frustrate you even more.

Have you tried Federal Gold Metal Match? It is the benchmark in regards to factory 308 ammo. ETA: I re-read and saw you had.

How much detail did you go into assembling the rifle? Was a torque wrench used? Did you lap the upper receiver, shim the barrel extension, bed the gas block, ......?

2 things: use good match ammo and practice. I bet those groups will shrink some more.

Scope is a 6x25 Millet. No both rings are on the upper.
I'm changing to a cantilevered one piece mount as I feel like I'm not getting a solid seat of the stock on my shoulder. I had the adjustable gas block dialed down & the cycling was all over the place with all the different types of ammunition. I opened the GB up 100% to avoid the hassle of short stroking. Without the brake installed the scope was kissing my forehead on occasion. My cheek weld seems consistent but it feels like I need the scope about .5" or .75" forward.

Don't be a dick
dag, your'e not being a dick. I stated in the OP that I'm not an expert, hell maybe not even a novice shooter. At 53 years old, my eyes are not what they used to be, heredity has brought on stigmatism which my dad suffered from, bi-focals & all that. I've gone down a road of my own choice & as stupid as it may seem by the groups I posted, I'm marginally satisfied with the results. This is a tough group on this forum but I can handle the criticism, learn from it & in the end maybe build a stick that will perform.
As mentioned above, I need to shoot more, practice, practice........
When I shot these groups, I would try to concentrate on every shot, bring the rifle back to the target without having to force the cross hairs to the POA.  I would love to have some one on one schooling with a shooter that can help me tighten these groups.

As far at the equipment, I'm going to strip the entire rifle down & re-assemble. This was my 1st home built rifle I ever put together. The only thing I did not do was install the barrel on the upper. I'm suspect of the torque of the barrel to the upper. I'm not convinced that lapping the upper is an issue, at least at this point but I have considered purchasing the tool to do this.
Bed the gas block? Gas block is a Wilson Combat Adjustable. Bed it with loctite? It has work as I would expect it to.
I will be shooting the better performing ammo to see if I can reproduce the sub MOA I got with the Barnes.

I think you're doing fine.  That rickety-ass table is doing you NO favors.

Don't touch the gun (as far as pulling stuff apart) until you shoot off a solid foundation.  Try the ammo that's shooting your best groups and see if that tightens up.

Nothing wrong with that rifle.

I actually have that table fastened to the pilaster column you see in the photo. Is doesn't move in the direction of the rifles recoil but you're right, it's not helping me.

That's acceptable for your setup. It's not really a precision rifle.

Maybe if I'm shooting hogs or yotes
Seriously, my goal would be sub MOA out to 300 yards. For me, with the right glass, my eyes, my skills, it would be an accomplishment.
I'm in the group that says it's the marksman, not the equipment but I need to verify that.

Plank, are you able to get a solid cheek weld?  

Also, try doing some dry fire practice, work on trigger control and follow through.
Concentrate on breath control.
I see quite a bit of vertical spread in most of you targets... that's often due (at least in part) to your breathing


Edit:  re-torque your scope rings too.  Quick & easy, and costs you nothing

In as much as I don't disagree with your reply, my limited knowledge & research has lead me to believe that barrel, trigger & optics are the 3 main factors in any given rifles performance of sub MOA groups, not including the shooters ability.
Assembly of the upper to the barrel would be the next critical issue on the list of developing a sub MOA rifle.
While I try to understand all the nuances of accurate rifles, how does free bore effect the POI at 100 yards?
Is my chamber cut to take advantage of some commercially produced ammo?
If I start loading my own, can I then call this rifle a precision rifle?
As I read the tech forums, the amount of information to consider in building a great shooting rifle is overwhelming to say the least for a incredibly average shooter like myself. I'm ready to take the steps necessary to assemble the most accurate rifle I can but in the end I may never be able to achieve the accuracy the rifle is capable of. Life's a real bitch but fuck it, let's do it.

Yea my breathing technique sucks. Even at 100 yards I can see my heartbeat on the target. How do I get rid of that? I've been giving myself time between shots to relax & focus. I'm not trying to force 5 rounds down range as quick as I can.
I did torque the rings to spec. I can see movement when I pull off the scope hence the purchase of a different mount.

ETA: As far as I can tell my cheek weld is consistent. I can come back to a good sight thru the glass without re-positioning the rifle much at all. It feels more like the scope is slightly to far back as I don't get a firm plant of the butt stock on my shoulder & maintain a good field of vision in the glass. I'm hoping the new scope mount will help correct that.

You want the shot to break at the same point in your breathing cycle, each and every time.
I prefer to exhale about 3/4, respiratory pause for maybe two seconds (allows everything to settle), send it.
If after three or four seconds of pause, you don't like the sight picture (for whatever reason), resume breathing normally and try again.
No need to rush it or force a bad shot.

You can break the shot at the top of your inhale, at the bottom of your exhale, right in the middle... whatever is most comfortable & natural for you.
As you breathe, you will see your reticle rise and fall over your target.
The key is to fire each round at the same point in your breath cycle.

With practice, it becomes natural and almost automatic

Let me ask this question, it feels natural to me to release the shot at the bottom as I exhale. I remember doing that. Would it be good to practice trigger release say while I'm sitting on the couch with the lower? I usually took a decent breath as I got the shot aligned, exhaled slowly & brought the reticle on target, as my breath was near the end, I went to the wall, in that moment after, I would break the shot if it looked good.

Try to find a comfortable spot for your 'respiratory pause'.
You'll see that phrase often, and for good reason.

Ideally, you want zero movement.
By pausing your breathing, you create as close to zero movement as possible.
If you try to fire at a specific point during the cycle (without doing so in the middle of your pause) your abdominal muscles will still be moving.
That's trying to 'grab' the shot, which is far from ideal.

NPA, or Natural Point of Aim is acronym you'll see often.
You and your rifle need to be dead-on-target with as little input from you as possible.
Trying to 'muscle' the rifle on target, or 'hold' it on target, is muscle movement/input.
I pull the rifle back into the pocket of my shoulder; that's the extent of the muscle input I try to achieve.
My neck is relaxed on my cheek weld, my shoulders are relaxed, whatever body support I'm using is bone support (vs muscle).

A completely neutral/relaxed shooting position isn't always practical.
For best results, try to get it as close to NPA as possible.

For what it's worth, shooting a gas-operated semi automatic is NOT easy.
In fact, sometimes it really pisses me off



Look up 'Sniper 101' on YouTube.
The guy's name is Rex, and he does a very comprehensive series on precision marksmanship.
Put on a pot of coffee and get comfortable; you can spend HOURS watching his tutorials.  
Good stuff, highly recommend

Does that table move at all when you shoot? If so, how can you expect the rounds to impact the same place if being fired from a moving platform? Try shooting from the ground.  As far as breathing (and trigger pull) goes, unload and clear your rifle, stick a pencel in the business end of the barrel, have someone balence a dime on the pencil and practice breathing / trigger pull without dropping the dime. If you pull the trigger without pausing your breath, or jerk the trigger, the dime will fall.

You're expecting WAY too much from the sum of your parts. You're expecting sub MOA out to 300? Not happening with that gear.

I see MULTIPLE groups that I'd be more than happy with considering your set up... and some were screwed by just one round going off and doing its own thing. The rest...maybe your rifle simply does not like the bullet/load.

DEZ is OK, I have a few of their barrels...

Find the loads that shoot well and continue with them... are the ones that are at 1.5" and below consistent?

Still working on determining that.
I've learned a lot from this rifle. The most frustrating thing moving on is. I may be able to put together a sub MOA rifle but I'm not sure I can shoot sub MOA. It's good to have goals at least.

That group with the Sellier & Bellot 147 FMJ are actually very good. Remember, it's not a benchrest gun.  I have never fired a 5 round group where they all touched. 3 Round groups, yes, but never a 5 round group.

I'd spend my time confirming the rifles preference for the loads that have shot well thus far all the while continuing to improve upon the basics. I'd not take the rifle apart at this point... IF there was something that was causing bad groups with ANY of the ammo it would have done it with ALL the ammo.

What was the distance you are shooting at?

100 yards

Yup, you're right. 'm gathering some more of the better performing rounds to see if I can repeat & or improve the groups. That Barnes stuff that I shot the best group is pricey at the LGS. Cheapest I've found online is $32.00 for 20. I'll try shooting prone off the slab too. I need a tutor in SWFL, anyone?

You know... if you use a small sand bag in under the stock, not sure how breathing could affect it.

Ya ya, I know... you can't overthink precision shooting. Just saying.

The rear bag is fine for me. I can pinch it slightly to align the shot. I'll shoot it off the floor this weekend to take the wobbly table out it. Try the new scope rings too. Load 1 round at a time. This is as bad as playing golf.

I'm a big believer in not testing accuracy until the weapon has seen 2-300 rounds.

That said quit shooting 10 types of Ammo. Choose one shoot 100 rds. Test the last 20 for five shot groups.

If you still feel that you are being held back try the next type and repeat.

Give those virgin surface som e time to lay into each other.

If you can see your heart beat on the reticle and you are shooting benched- guess what- you are way too "on" that rifle. Relax your grip, pull back, and cheek weld. Treat the rifle like its a delicate reed that will bend if you apply too much touch. You are there to guide, trigger, and catch recoil. Other than those three thing let that animal do its thing.

Have you had someone else shoot your rifle?  Preferably someone that is accustom to the gas gun.  If they can consistently shoot moa, then the problem is probably you.  Something to consider.

Eta:  Also, you do know how to properly adjust for parallax don't you.

The barrel is well beyond the 300 round mark. I am going back to the range with the match ammo only as you suggest.

Working on it. If I can improve the fundamentals I know I can close those groups down even more.

I shamelessly posted my skills in the OP. I'm considering everything. If my knowledge of parallax was an issue on my subsequent groups, I'll let you know.

Who is DEZ Arms? Is it an acronym, or just a company I haven't heard of? How do they rifle the barrel? Do you know if they did any type of stress relieving after cutting the flutes?

DEZ
They did not have many reviews when I selected the barrel but the few they had were above average. This barrel is button cut. Not sure on the stress relief. I put the stick together with minimal basic knowledge of what really makes a great SA sub MOA rifle. Ehh, I've learned a lot since then. I have shot a sub moa group with it, now I need to be able to repeat it.

If I can confirm the glass & mounts are not part of the problem, work on my basic shooting skills I bet I can get tighter groups. The Barnes ammo is promising. Some of the Hornady is close too.

According to their site, yes, barrels are stress relieved. A few years back I was dealing with them concerning some .223 barrels. Nice folks, not a large operation.

With all the money you've spent on commercial ammo, you could have tuned a handload to your gun and put together several hundred rounds.  Hopefully you saved all your brass.  My recommendation is to buy a starter set, read the reloading book, use some match bullets - I'd try 150's given how well your rifle shot the S&B 147's - and get to work.  Based on your OP you've got the right mindset for load development.  You just need to do the same testing with a reload ladder of different powder weights.  This way you can actually control a variable rather than picking something random off a shelf.  Read up on barrel harmonics and you'll understand the tuning process.  Based on the price of ammo, I think handloading is a must for shooting 308.

OR

Buy about five more boxes of the S&B 147's.  If you can shoot like that consistently, buy a case of it and be happy.

As far as technique, I like the magpul video on long range shooting.  I learned a lot from it and I like the host.  As others have mentioned, I really like the rear squeeze bag.  With that and a solid front rest/good bipod, there are no excuses  Make sure you're not inadvertently squeezing the other fingers on your hand when you pull the trigger.  Try and make it a surprise when it goes off.  Basically, you want your body to influence the rifle as little as possible.  And you want to be as consistent as possible.

Thanks for pointing that out lol. Don't think that I haven't considered the amount of coin I got wrapped up in commercial ammo. Fact is, I bought a good amount of the cheaper NATO stuff because it was, well, cheap. That one group of Perfecta 147gr started real nice (3 touching) then, well there it went on shots 4 & 5. I would never expect that. It gives me some hope that the tool may not be the main issue. I would have expected the FGMM to do a little better but hell, I shot 30 different types of ammo over 4 range sessions. The 1st day was a long one, I wish I would have dated them better. I'm fortunate enough to be able to step out the back door & shoot by myself without any other noise bothering me. Yes I do have all the brass saved.

ETA: Shooting at the Crooked Branch Ranch, Gun Range, Cigar Emporium & Liquor Store.


This is the bench location where we shoot rifles from.
There's a pistol backstop out at 100' we usually walk down to.
The rectangle steel hanging beyond that is 75 yards.
The 4x4 target stand to left is 100 yards & if you were to zoom in between the 75 & 100 yard targets we hit the berm at 155 yards. My neighbors love me

I just went back & reviwed this post & all the replys.
I wanted to give other incredibly average shooters, like myself, my humble learning experience.

I have not gone back & shot this .308 rifle since the last post. I think I hate it lol.
I have put together a 20" .223 that has produced some sub MOA groups.
Part of those groups are the result of advice given here in this thread.
This barrel choice on the .223 was made based on proven/posted results based on competitions found on this website. Cost was a 50% consideration in this selection.
I built a most, more better shooting bench.  
I narrowed my selection of "new production" ammo choices & stuck with them. A small sample selection of match grade ammo with know typical NATO or ball ammo thrown in for reference.
The rifle started to group better around/after 200 rounds.
I bought better glass. Good glass will give you good results.
I'm still working on my breathing, it seems to be the hill I need to conquer.


Thanks for all the reply's, even the ones that I know I didn't want to hear.
I think I gained the most from those posts.