[ARCHIVED THREAD] - AR-15 Barrel Break-In (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 7/2/2016 7:43:58 PM EDT
Even an expensive, single-point cut-rifling stainless-steel Krieger barrel that has been chambered and hand-lapped by Krieger can benefit from a judicious break-in. The first bore-scope pic below is from the leade of one of my brand-new Krieger AR-15 barrels (that was purchased directly from Krieger and that was chambered and hand-lapped by Krieger) prior to firing. As you can see in the pic, there are still tooling marks on the lands in the leade running perpendicular to the bore direction. The barrel won't shoot to its potential until those tool marks have been removed.
The next bore-scope pic shows the same barrel after I conducted a short break-in procedure. The tooling marks on the lands in the leade are completely gone. 
And here’s what an AR-15 barrel that has been properly broken-in can do . . . 
.... From Krieger Barrels Inc. “With any premium barrel that has been finish lapped -- such as your Krieger Barrel --, the lay or direction of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, so fouling is minimal. This is true of any properly finish-lapped barrel regardless of how it is rifled. If it is not finish-lapped, there will be reamer marks left in the bore that are directly across the direction of the bullet travel. This occurs even in a button-rifled barrel as the button cannot completely iron out these reamer marks. Because the lay of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, very little is done to the bore during break-in, but the throat is another story. When your barrel is chambered, by necessity there are reamer marks left in the throat that are across the lands, i.e. across the direction of the bullet travel. In a new barrel they are very distinct; much like the teeth on a very fine file." Continued at: http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/Break_In__Cleaning-c1246-wp2558.htm .... |
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For anyone thinking of posting a link to the Gale McMillan article entitled: "How to Break-in a Barrel, A Dissenting Point of View," allow me to save you the trouble.
Quotes from the McMillan article are posted in black below; my replies to those excerpts are in red. "As a barrel maker I have looked in thousands of new and used barrels with a bore scope and I will tell you that if every one followed the prescribed [one shot, one clean] break-in method, a very large number would do more harm than good.” Here’s a newsflash for the famous stock-maker; neither myself, nor any straight shooter that I associate with has ever “done more harm than good” by breaking-in a barrel. The famous stock-maker thinks that he’s the only person who knows how to properly clean a barrel and that the rest of us monkeys do nothing but cause damage when we clean a barrel. “The reason you hear of the gain in accuracy is because if you chamber a barrel with a reamer that has a dull throater instead of cutting clean sharp rifling it smears a burr up on the down wind side of the rifling.” So the famous stock-maker admits that there are artifacts left in the throat of the barrel ("burrs") that need to be removed before a barrel can achieve its best accuracy, yet he fails to mention that even with a sharp reamer, there will still be reamer marks left on the lands in the leade of the barrel. “It takes from one to two hundred rounds to burn this burr out and the rifle to settle down and shoot its best.” And there it is folks, the break-in method of the famous stock-maker; fire two hundred rounds through the barrel to remove the artifacts left in the throat from the reaming process. Remember this. “Another tidbit to consider--take a 300 Win Mag that has a life expectancy of 1000 rounds. Use 10% of it up with your break-in procedure. For every 10 barrels the barrel-maker makes he has to make one more just to take care of the break-in. No wonder barrel-makers like to see this.” Now here’s where the famous stock-maker really contradicts himself. Remember from his statement above, the break-in procedure of the famous stock-maker is to just fire two hundred rounds through the barrel. His break-in procedure uses up 20% of the barrel life for the example he uses. Yet, the famous stock-maker pretends that those using a specific break-in procedure will “use 10%” of the barrel’s life “with your break-in procedure.” I’ve clearly and scientifically demonstrated with the bore-scope views that I posted above, that a specific break-in procedure can remove all the artifacts in the throat of a Krieger barrel with as little as 20 rounds being fired. This shows that the break-in procedure of the famous stock-maker, of firing two hundred rounds through the barrel, uses up TEN TIMES the amount of barrel life as a specific break-in procedure that only requires twenty rounds. “Now when you flame me on this please [explain] what you think is happening to the inside of your barrel during the break in that is helping you.” Seriously?? The famous stock-maker is unaware of what happens during a specific break-in procedure, even though he has "looked in thousands of new and used barrels with a bore scope"? Again, the famous stock-maker flat-out contradicts himself. He stated above that he was aware that artifacts of the reaming process had to be removed from the throat of the barrel for the barrel to achieve its best accuracy, but now he pretends that he is unaware of that. “Consider this: every round shot in breaking-in a barrel is one round off the life of said rifle barrel. No one has ever told me the physical reason of what happens during break-in firing.” The famous stock-maker again claims to have no idea what happens during a specific break-in procedure. I’m just a lowly member of the general population and I clearly described with bore-scope views what happens during a specific break-in procedure. The artifacts left on the lands in the leade of the barrel are removed. This same process is described in detail on the website of one of the most prominent precision barrel makers in the business, Krieger Barrels Inc. Yet, the famous stock-maker has never heard of this, nor observed it for himself since he has "looked in thousands of new and used barrels with a bore scope"? “In other words what, to the number of pounds of powder shot at any given pressure, is the life of the barrel. No one has ever explained what is being accomplished by shooting and cleaning in any prescribed method”. The delusions of the famous stock-maker continue. “Nev Maden, a friend down under that my brother taught to make barrels was the one who came up with the [one shot one clean] break-in method. He may think he has come upon something, or he has come up with another way to sell barrels.” Now the famous stock-maker is trying to rewrite history. Precision shooters were performing break-in procedures on their barrels long before the famous stock-maker or “Nev Maden” were ever born. “I feel that the first shot out of a barrel is its best and every one after that deteriorates [the bore] until the barrel is gone.” Again, the famous stock-maker flat-out contradicts himself. He clearly stated at the beginning of his article that the artifacts left in the throat form the reaming process had to be removed for a barrel to achieve its best accuracy. “If some one can explain what physically takes place during break-in to modify the barrel then I may change my mind.” Kreiger Barrels Inc. has done just that, in detail, on their website. (see below) “As the physical properties of a barrel don't change because of the break-in procedures it means it's all hog wash. I am open to any suggestions that can be documented otherwise if it is just someone's opinion--forget it.” The hypocrisy of the famous stock-maker knows no bounds. He hasn’t presented one iota of documented, factual data to support his opinion. From Krieger Barrels Inc. “With any premium barrel that has been finish lapped -- such as your Krieger Barrel --, the lay or direction of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, so fouling is minimal. This is true of any properly finish-lapped barrel regardless of how it is rifled. If it is not finish-lapped, there will be reamer marks left in the bore that are directly across the direction of the bullet travel. This occurs even in a button-rifled barrel as the button cannot completely iron out these reamer marks. Because the lay of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, very little is done to the bore during break-in, but the throat is another story. When your barrel is chambered, by necessity there are reamer marks left in the throat that are across the lands, i.e. across the direction of the bullet travel. In a new barrel they are very distinct; much like the teeth on a very fine file. When the bullet is forced into the throat, copper dust is released into the gas which at this temperature and pressure is actually a plasma. The copper dust is vaporized in this gas and is carried down the barrel. As the gas expands and cools, the copper comes out of suspension and is deposited in the bore. This makes it appear as if the source of the fouling is the bore when it is actually for the most part the new throat. If this copper is allowed to stay in the bore, and subsequent bullets and deposits are fired over it; copper which adheres well to itself, will build up quickly and may be difficult to remove later. So when we break in a barrel, our goal is to get the throat polished without allowing copper to build up in the bore. This is the reasoning for the "fire-one-shot-and-clean" procedure . . .” Continued at: http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/Break_In__Cleaning-c1246-wp2558.htm .... The bore-scope view pictured below shows the lands in the leade of one of my stainless-steel Noveske barrels. I did not conduct a specific break-in procedure on this barrel, but simply fired 150-200 rounds through it, and then cleaned it. As you can see in the pic, even after 150-200 hundred rounds have been fired from this barrel the tool marks on the lands in the leade are not completely gone. At this point this barrel was still not shooting as well as all of my other stainless-steel Noveske barrels that I had conducted a break-in procedure on. 
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Last barrel I bought was a ranier match. I loosely followed the procedure Lilja recommends.
1 shot. Wet brush once. Dry patches until clean. Wet patch once. Repeat for ten shots. Then five shots with no cleaning. Wet brush once. Dry patches until clean. Wet patch once. Then five shots with no cleaning. Wet brush once. Dry patches until clean. Wet patch once. Probably didn't do a ton, but it didn't hurt. |
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I do it, which sucks because of how monotonous and tedious it is.
Pretty sure most people just want to believe it doesn't help because they don't want to use up the cleaning supplies or take the time to do it. If they did proper break in's, they would spend more time cleaning than they would probably ever spend shooting it... And most here are buying the cheapest barrels they can find, so probably nothing to be gained. Not when your barrel extension is coming loose or the barrel isn't headspaced correctly. ETA: Broke in a stainless 7.62 barrel this weekend. Took like 3-4 hours. Luckily my sis and bro-IL stopped by and visited. Beautiful day. No other shooters at the range. Overall very nice, but still lame. |
Yea I always laugh a little when I read" my blank blank shoots MOA just fine without any break in". I think they are just easily impressed. The last barrel I put on was a rainier arms, Rock creek 8 flute varmint, 1-12 twist for the little 50s. I took it to a public pay range that went to 200 yds for its first time out. There were several other guys shooting ARs also and I was doing way more cleaning than shooting. They kept looking at me like  WTF are you doing? I don't think any of them had ever seen a bore guide before. They were just blasting at 50 and 100 and seemed to be happy with their 4-5" groups on their shoot and see tgts. Then we went to change targets and they seen my little sub 1/2 MOA groups  . If I can gain a small fraction of an inch for a couple hours of time, I'm going to try and get it. The only thing I'm out is some cleaning fluid and patches. That extra small fraction makes a big difference to me at longer ranges.
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Directly from WOA:
HOW SHOULD I BREAK IN MY BARREL? I suspect that more barrels have been damaged than helped by "breaking in". Barrel makers take a lot of care to get a uniform finish on the inside of a barrel. Barrels are lapped not so that they will be smooth, but so that the finish and dimensions will be uniform over the entire barrel. When you use an abrasive cleaning compound you will change the finish on the inside of the barrel. Since some areas of the barrel are going to be protected by copper that you are trying to remove, and others areas are not, the surface finish is no longer going to be uniform. Since I got a bore scope I have backed off on my use of abrasive bore cleaners. I use them, but not nearly as aggressively, particularly on a new barrel. My personal break in procedure is to take a new upper to the range and zero the front sight and shoot a group or two. This will take about 15-20 rounds. I then bring it back to the shop and clean it good with shooters and a good quality brush. I check it with a bore scope, but generally very little copper fouling is present. Depending on how it looks I may hit the throat lightly with some JB. That's it, it is now broken in. This is for all for good quality hand lapped barrels. I will get a little more aggressive with mass produced barrels. For general cleaning and barrel maintenance we use Hoppes #9 for cleaning, Break Free CLP for lube, and only use Dewey rods. https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/resources/faq.html#break |
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http://i.imgur.com/yGwmmwX.jpg This barrel has 300ish rds through it. Pulled this round out clearing the line. There are newbies like me reading these threads trying to learn. Please would those of you in the know describe the point of photos like this instead of assuming everyone knows what it means. |
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There are newbies like me reading these threads trying to learn. Please would those of you in the know describe the point of photos like this instead of assuming everyone knows what it means. Quoted:
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http://i.imgur.com/yGwmmwX.jpg This barrel has 300ish rds through it. Pulled this round out clearing the line. There are newbies like me reading these threads trying to learn. Please would those of you in the know describe the point of photos like this instead of assuming everyone knows what it means. Pulling a hot round from the gun when it's warm is VERY hard. After looking at one when reloading a mag, I noticed the rings in the copper jacket. I'm assuming that those are from the chamber reaming tool and they're still quite pronounced in the chamber. I was hoping Molon would chime in. |
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Last barrel I bought was a ranier match. I loosely followed the procedure Lilja recommends. 1 shot. Wet brush once. Dry patches until clean. Wet patch once. Repeat for ten shots. Then five shots with no cleaning. Wet brush once. Dry patches until clean. Wet patch once. Then five shots with no cleaning. Wet brush once. Dry patches until clean. Wet patch once. Probably didn't do a ton, but it didn't hurt. I just installed a hand lapped Lilja 16" Recce barrel and followed their advice. I'm now in load development, and may not have reached optimum. This group is typical for where I am. I can't say if the time consuming process helped, but it certainly did not hurt. Dan Lilja claims he has never seen a bore damaged from even aggressive use of bronze bore brushes and liquid solvents as long as the crown is protected and good rod guides and rods are used. I have no reason to question him. http://riflebarrels.com/support/centerfire-maintenance/ 
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Just broke in a new Savage target barrel on a F-TR in 223.
Fired 1 and cleaned, 5 and cleaned, 10 and cleaned, 10 and cleaned. never did get much in the way of copper out of it. Next trip fired 80 rounds, this thing just doesn't seem to copper up. Not what I expected. |
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I just installed a hand lapped Lilja 16" Recce barrel and followed their advice. I'm now in load development, and may not have reached optimum. This group is typical for where I am. I can't say if the time consuming process helped, but it certainly did not hurt. Dan Lilja claims he has never seen a bore damaged from even aggressive use of bronze bore brushes and liquid solvents as long as the crown is protected and good rod guides and rods are used. I have no reason to question him. http://riflebarrels.com/support/centerfire-maintenance/ http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/r772/gbloss/Mobile%20Uploads/1EE96CCF-C9B8-4812-9E50-37E4C38FC63D_zpspydly243.jpg Quoted:
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Last barrel I bought was a ranier match. I loosely followed the procedure Lilja recommends. 1 shot. Wet brush once. Dry patches until clean. Wet patch once. Repeat for ten shots. Then five shots with no cleaning. Wet brush once. Dry patches until clean. Wet patch once. Then five shots with no cleaning. Wet brush once. Dry patches until clean. Wet patch once. Probably didn't do a ton, but it didn't hurt. I just installed a hand lapped Lilja 16" Recce barrel and followed their advice. I'm now in load development, and may not have reached optimum. This group is typical for where I am. I can't say if the time consuming process helped, but it certainly did not hurt. Dan Lilja claims he has never seen a bore damaged from even aggressive use of bronze bore brushes and liquid solvents as long as the crown is protected and good rod guides and rods are used. I have no reason to question him. http://riflebarrels.com/support/centerfire-maintenance/ http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/r772/gbloss/Mobile%20Uploads/1EE96CCF-C9B8-4812-9E50-37E4C38FC63D_zpspydly243.jpg Excellent shooting!!! |
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Excellent shooting!!! Quoted:
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Last barrel I bought was a ranier match. I loosely followed the procedure Lilja recommends. 1 shot. Wet brush once. Dry patches until clean. Wet patch once. Repeat for ten shots. Then five shots with no cleaning. Wet brush once. Dry patches until clean. Wet patch once. Then five shots with no cleaning. Wet brush once. Dry patches until clean. Wet patch once. Probably didn't do a ton, but it didn't hurt. I just installed a hand lapped Lilja 16" Recce barrel and followed their advice. I'm now in load development, and may not have reached optimum. This group is typical for where I am. I can't say if the time consuming process helped, but it certainly did not hurt. Dan Lilja claims he has never seen a bore damaged from even aggressive use of bronze bore brushes and liquid solvents as long as the crown is protected and good rod guides and rods are used. I have no reason to question him. http://riflebarrels.com/support/centerfire-maintenance/ http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/r772/gbloss/Mobile%20Uploads/1EE96CCF-C9B8-4812-9E50-37E4C38FC63D_zpspydly243.jpg Excellent shooting!!! Thank you. It's the barrel and load. I just try not to break technique and screw it up. I do think that the recommended break-in helps to remove tool marks in the throat that are not affected by the hand lapping of the bore. Clearing the copper from that process seems valuable as it might be permanent otherwise and would alter tbe contour of the lands and grooves of the bore. Whether this affects absolute accuracy, I don't know. But it makes sense to eliminate variables that could degrade accuracy if the barrel is otherwise capable of match grade performance. This may be a waste on barrels that are not match grade or if ammo is not of match quality. |
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I have a WOA 16 inch Wylde 1/8 I use for 3 gun and it's been quite accurate with my loads.
I have about 300 rounds thru it so far. I never did any type of break in other than shoot it to sight in and clean it at the end of the day. I'm curious if doing the break in regimen would have any effect? I also have a brand new never fired Proof Research barrel I plan on taking the time to do a proper break in. |
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I have a WOA 16 inch Wylde 1/8 I use for 3 gun and it's been quite accurate with my loads. I have about 300 rounds thru it so far. I never did any type of break in other than shoot it to sight in and clean it at the end of the day. I'm curious if doing the break in regimen would have any effect? I also have a brand new never fired Proof Research barrel I plan on taking the time to do a proper break in. That's all you need to do......as per WOA. People like to think they have the perfect technique and the be all end all kool-aid formula for barrel break in; they will dazzle us with borescopes and charts. If you go by what the manufacturer recommends, and not overdue the cleaning with harsh chemicals and brushes, you will be GTG. As WOA suggests, people end up doing more harm than good when overthinking barrel break in. 
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Molon, would a chrome lined barrel benefit from a break in or is the chrome lining too tough to smooth out with in a reasonable round count of a breaking in process? For chrome-lined barrels, I usually put 200-300 rounds through them before doing any accuracy testing. ... |
| I would like to see two identical barrels then have one go through a break in procedure and the other one just shot. I say do whatever floats your boat but the fact that you can talk to top PRS or people that make a living behind a long gun and theres no definitive answer tells me all that I need to know. |
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I would like to see two identical barrels then have one go through a break in procedure and the other one just shot. I say do whatever floats your boat but the fact that you can talk to top PRS or people that make a living behind a long gun and theres no definitive answer tells me all that I need to know. You just answered your own question....some people just like to hear themselves talk. The folks at WOA have the reputation and respect in the precision community to be trusted, and the less is more approach they recommend is pragmatic and logical. |
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You just answered your own question....some people just like to hear themselves talk. The folks at WOA have the reputation and respect in the precision community to be trusted, and the less is more approach they recommend is pragmatic and logical. Quoted:
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I would like to see two identical barrels then have one go through a break in procedure and the other one just shot. I say do whatever floats your boat but the fact that you can talk to top PRS or people that make a living behind a long gun and theres no definitive answer tells me all that I need to know. You just answered your own question....some people just like to hear themselves talk. The folks at WOA have the reputation and respect in the precision community to be trusted, and the less is more approach they recommend is pragmatic and logical. I've never done a break in and never had a issue. Someone wants to do it I say by god have at it. |
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Directly from WOA: HOW SHOULD I BREAK IN MY BARREL? I suspect that more barrels have been damaged than helped by "breaking in". Barrel makers take a lot of care to get a uniform finish on the inside of a barrel. Barrels are lapped not so that they will be smooth, but so that the finish and dimensions will be uniform over the entire barrel. When you use an abrasive cleaning compound you will change the finish on the inside of the barrel. Since some areas of the barrel are going to be protected by copper that you are trying to remove, and others areas are not, the surface finish is no longer going to be uniform. Since I got a bore scope I have backed off on my use of abrasive bore cleaners. I use them, but not nearly as aggressively, particularly on a new barrel. My personal break in procedure is to take a new upper to the range and zero the front sight and shoot a group or two. This will take about 15-20 rounds. I then bring it back to the shop and clean it good with shooters and a good quality brush. I check it with a bore scope, but generally very little copper fouling is present. Depending on how it looks I may hit the throat lightly with some JB. That's it, it is now broken in. This is for all for good quality hand lapped barrels. I will get a little more aggressive with mass produced barrels. For general cleaning and barrel maintenance we use Hoppes #9 for cleaning, Break Free CLP for lube, and only use Dewey rods. https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/resources/faq.html#break Do you even read what you post? Your repost states it takes "about 15-20 rounds" and then "depending how it looks" some additional work "with some JB." I stated very clearly in my original posts that I can break in my Krieger barrels with as little as 20 rounds. .... |
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lmao dude thats a copy paste from WOA. Quoted:
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Directly from WOA: HOW SHOULD I BREAK IN MY BARREL? I suspect that more barrels have been damaged than helped by "breaking in". Barrel makers take a lot of care to get a uniform finish on the inside of a barrel. Barrels are lapped not so that they will be smooth, but so that the finish and dimensions will be uniform over the entire barrel. When you use an abrasive cleaning compound you will change the finish on the inside of the barrel. Since some areas of the barrel are going to be protected by copper that you are trying to remove, and others areas are not, the surface finish is no longer going to be uniform. Since I got a bore scope I have backed off on my use of abrasive bore cleaners. I use them, but not nearly as aggressively, particularly on a new barrel. My personal break in procedure is to take a new upper to the range and zero the front sight and shoot a group or two. This will take about 15-20 rounds. I then bring it back to the shop and clean it good with shooters and a good quality brush. I check it with a bore scope, but generally very little copper fouling is present. Depending on how it looks I may hit the throat lightly with some JB. That's it, it is now broken in. This is for all for good quality hand lapped barrels. I will get a little more aggressive with mass produced barrels. For general cleaning and barrel maintenance we use Hoppes #9 for cleaning, Break Free CLP for lube, and only use Dewey rods. https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/resources/faq.html#break Do you even read what you post? Your repost states it takes "about 15-20 rounds" and then "depending how it looks" some additional work with JP. I stated very clearly in my original posts that I can break in my Krieger barrels with as little as 20 rounds. .... lmao dude thats a copy paste from WOA. Ya think? What part of "repost" didn't you understand? |
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. . . they will dazzle us with borescopes and charts. Quoted:
. . . they will dazzle us with borescopes and charts. Those borescope views are what's known as factual data; something that you fail miserably at providing to support anything that you say. Quoted:
As WOA suggests, people end up doing more harm than good when overthinking barrel break in. More arrogant thinking without any data to support it; believing that no one else can clean a barrel during the break-in process without causing harm. .... Quoted:
. . . If you go by what the manufacturer recommends, Like this? From Krieger Barrels Inc. “With any premium barrel that has been finish lapped -- such as your Krieger Barrel --, the lay or direction of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, so fouling is minimal. This is true of any properly finish-lapped barrel regardless of how it is rifled. If it is not finish-lapped, there will be reamer marks left in the bore that are directly across the direction of the bullet travel. This occurs even in a button-rifled barrel as the button cannot completely iron out these reamer marks. Because the lay of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, very little is done to the bore during break-in, but the throat is another story. When your barrel is chambered, by necessity there are reamer marks left in the throat that are across the lands, i.e. across the direction of the bullet travel. In a new barrel they are very distinct; much like the teeth on a very fine file. When the bullet is forced into the throat, copper dust is released into the gas which at this temperature and pressure is actually a plasma. The copper dust is vaporized in this gas and is carried down the barrel. As the gas expands and cools, the copper comes out of suspension and is deposited in the bore. This makes it appear as if the source of the fouling is the bore when it is actually for the most part the new throat. If this copper is allowed to stay in the bore, and subsequent bullets and deposits are fired over it; copper which adheres well to itself, will build up quickly and may be difficult to remove later. So when we break in a barrel, our goal is to get the throat polished without allowing copper to build up in the bore. This is the reasoning for the "fire-one-shot-and-clean" procedure . . .” Continued at: http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/Break_In__Cleaning-c1246-wp2558.htm .... Krieger Barrel Break-In Procedure BREAK IN: The following is a guide to break-in based on our experience. This is not a hard and fast rule, only a guide. Some barrel, chamber, bullet, primer, powder, pressure, velocity etc. combinations may require more cycles some less. It is a good idea to just observe what the barrel is telling you with its fouling pattern and the patches. But once it is broken in, there is no need to continue breaking it in. Initially you should perform the shoot-one-shot-and-clean cycle for five shots. If fouling hasn't reduced, fire five more cycles and so on until fouling begins to drop off. At that point shoot three shots before cleaning and observe. If fouling is reduced, fire five shots before cleaning. Do not be alarmed if your seating depth gets longer during break in. This is typical of the “high spots in the throat being knocked down during this procedure. It is not uncommon for throat length to grow .005-.030 from a fresh unfired chamber during break in. Stainless 1) 5-10 one-shot cycles 2) 1 three-shot cycle 3) 1 five-shot cycle Chrome moly 1) 5 - 25 - one-shot cycles 2) 2 - three-shot cycles 3) 1 - five-shot cycle .... Criterion Barrel Break-In Procedure What process can I use to break-in my barrel? With the goal of gradually reducing copper fouling, we suggest beginning the break-in process with single shot groups. After each group the shooter should clean the barrel with a copper solvent. When fouling begins to diminish after each shot, group sizes can be subsequently increased to five rounds. When fouling is reduced after each five round group, the group size can be increased to ten rounds. If the barrel has no copper fouling after a ten round group, your rifle is ready for your next match. |
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I would like to see two identical barrels then have one go through a break in procedure and the other one just shot. Been there, done that, and already posted a bore-scope view from one of my several Noveske barrels to demonstrate in my original posts. ... |
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Been there, done that, and already posted a bore-scope view from one of my several Noveske barrels to demonstrate in my original posts. ... Quoted:
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I would like to see two identical barrels then have one go through a break in procedure and the other one just shot. Been there, done that, and already posted a bore-scope view from one of my several Noveske barrels to demonstrate in my original posts. ... Dude why do you freak out and take this subject so personally every time? |
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Dude why do you freak out and take this subject so personally every time? http://www.top10homeremedies.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/feat-unhealthy-vagina-277x190.jpg Quoted:
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I would like to see two identical barrels then have one go through a break in procedure and the other one just shot. Been there, done that, and already posted a bore-scope view from one of my several Noveske barrels to demonstrate in my original posts. ... Dude why do you freak out and take this subject so personally every time? http://www.top10homeremedies.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/feat-unhealthy-vagina-277x190.jpg Anyone who devotes their entire existence to shooting, just so they can have their links pinned to the tech section shouldn't be taken lightly. If you disagree with anything this guy says, he goes full derp.....
 
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Anyone who devotes their entire existence to shooting, just so they can have their links pinned to the tech section shouldn't be taken lightly. If you disagree with anything this guy says, he goes full derp.....
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I would like to see two identical barrels then have one go through a break in procedure and the other one just shot. Been there, done that, and already posted a bore-scope view from one of my several Noveske barrels to demonstrate in my original posts. ... Dude why do you freak out and take this subject so personally every time? http://www.top10homeremedies.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/feat-unhealthy-vagina-277x190.jpg Anyone who devotes their entire existence to shooting, just so they can have their links pinned to the tech section shouldn't be taken lightly. If you disagree with anything this guy says, he goes full derp.....
To me its like my rifles shooting sub moa thats plenty good. I dont care if doing some rain dance would give me a .25 moa group instead of .5 because when I'm shooting my wind calls are going to erasing all that shit. |
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Dude why do you freak out and take this subject so personally every time? Quoted:
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I would like to see two identical barrels then have one go through a break in procedure and the other one just shot. Been there, done that, and already posted a bore-scope view from one of my several Noveske barrels to demonstrate in my original posts. ... Dude why do you freak out and take this subject so personally every time? Dude why do you fail to post any data to support anything that you say every time? .. |
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Anyone who devotes their entire existence to shooting, just so they can have their links pinned to the tech section shouldn't be taken lightly. If you disagree with anything this guy says, he goes full derp.....
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I would like to see two identical barrels then have one go through a break in procedure and the other one just shot. Been there, done that, and already posted a bore-scope view from one of my several Noveske barrels to demonstrate in my original posts. ... Dude why do you freak out and take this subject so personally every time? http://www.top10homeremedies.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/feat-unhealthy-vagina-277x190.jpg Anyone who devotes their entire existence to shooting, just so they can have their links pinned to the tech section shouldn't be taken lightly. If you disagree with anything this guy says, he goes full derp.....
More running of your pie hole and still no data. Seems that's all you're capable of. .. |
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Dude why do you fail to post any data to support anything that you say every time? .. Quoted:
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I would like to see two identical barrels then have one go through a break in procedure and the other one just shot. Been there, done that, and already posted a bore-scope view from one of my several Noveske barrels to demonstrate in my original posts. ... Dude why do you freak out and take this subject so personally every time? Dude why do you fail to post any data to support anything that you say every time? .. Because its not definitive. Like I said you talk to people that use a long gun for a living or shoot PRS and the most supportive thing you'll hear about guys doing break in is that it cant hurt so I do it. So if it worked it would just be the way and everyone would do it. I'm to lazy and care to little to go pull the links talking about people not knowing what there doing are more likely to fuck a barrel up with a cleaning rod then anything. Guys doing factory tours and talking to manufacturers who say barrel break in is pointless but they will give a procedure for the guys that want to do it so they can get the warm fuzzy. Like I always say do what floats your boat but I'm more worried about shit that matters like practicing wind calls and shooting any position beside prone. |
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Good read. Thanks for posting Molon.
I've had barrels that definitely improved after a "break in". I've never done the shoot, clean, shoot, clean, etc... method, but I wouldn't think it could do any more harm than shooting 100-200 rounds. I know that the heat and pressure from firing a round does a lot more to a barrel than I do with a bore guide, coated rod, brush, and solvents. |
| I think the idea behind it is to remove cooper that's been building up in the ridges left by the reamer to give s fresh bullet a clean pass at eroding them down. I have a Criterion chrome lined barrel that is impressively accurate while cleaning up very simply. Two wet patches, a heavy brushing, then two wet patches. The fourth patch comes out almost clean each time. A fifth, dry patch certainly does. I followed Criterion's recommended break in. Anymore, Very little copper comes out after a heavy soaking when I used Hoppe's Elite. I clean regularly with Eliminator now, so I don't do the copper soaks. |
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I think the idea behind it is to remove cooper that's been building up in the ridges left by the reamer to give s fresh bullet a clean pass at eroding them down. I have a Criterion chrome lined barrel that is impressively accurate while cleaning up very simply. Two wet patches, a heavy brushing, then two wet patches. The fourth patch comes out almost clean each time. A fifth, dry patch certainly does. I followed Criterion's recommended break in. Anymore, Very little copper comes out after a heavy soaking when I used Hoppe's Elite. I clean regularly with Eliminator now, so I don't do the copper soaks. I dont remove copper on any barrel until my accuracy starts degrading at thousands of rounds. |
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I followed Criterion's recommended break in. Not too dissimilar from Krieger Barrels, Inc. recommended break-in procedure. Criterion Barrel Break-In Procedure What process can I use to break-in my barrel? With the goal of gradually reducing copper fouling, we suggest beginning the break-in process with single shot groups. After each group the shooter should clean the barrel with a copper solvent. When fouling begins to diminish after each shot, group sizes can be subsequently increased to five rounds. When fouling is reduced after each five round group, the group size can be increased to ten rounds. If the barrel has no copper fouling after a ten round group, your rifle is ready for your next match. ..... Krieger Barrel Break-In Procedure BREAK IN: The following is a guide to break-in based on our experience. This is not a hard and fast rule, only a guide. Some barrel, chamber, bullet, primer, powder, pressure, velocity etc. combinations may require more cycles some less. It is a good idea to just observe what the barrel is telling you with its fouling pattern and the patches. But once it is broken in, there is no need to continue breaking it in. Initially you should perform the shoot-one-shot-and-clean cycle for five shots. If fouling hasn't reduced, fire five more cycles and so on until fouling begins to drop off. At that point shoot three shots before cleaning and observe. If fouling is reduced, fire five shots before cleaning. Do not be alarmed if your seating depth gets longer during break in. This is typical of the “high spots in the throat being knocked down during this procedure. It is not uncommon for throat length to grow .005-.030 from a fresh unfired chamber during break in. Stainless 1) 5-10 one-shot cycles 2) 1 three-shot cycle 3) 1 five-shot cycle Chrome moly 1) 5 - 25 - one-shot cycles 2) 2 - three-shot cycles 3) 1 - five-shot cycle .... |
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Because its not definitive. Like I said you talk to people that use a long gun for a living or shoot PRS and the most supportive thing you'll hear about guys doing break in is that it cant hurt so I do it. So if it worked it would just be the way and everyone would do it. I'm to lazy and care to little to go pull the links talking about people not knowing what there doing are more likely to fuck a barrel up with a cleaning rod then anything. Guys doing factory tours and talking to manufacturers who say barrel break in is pointless but they will give a procedure for the guys that want to do it so they can get the warm fuzzy. Like I always say do what floats your boat but I'm more worried about shit that matters like practicing wind calls and shooting any position beside prone. Quoted:
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I would like to see two identical barrels then have one go through a break in procedure and the other one just shot. Been there, done that, and already posted a bore-scope view from one of my several Noveske barrels to demonstrate in my original posts. ... Dude why do you freak out and take this subject so personally every time? Dude why do you fail to post any data to support anything that you say every time? .. Because its not definitive. Like I said you talk to people that use a long gun for a living or shoot PRS and the most supportive thing you'll hear about guys doing break in is that it cant hurt so I do it. So if it worked it would just be the way and everyone would do it. I'm to lazy and care to little to go pull the links talking about people not knowing what there doing are more likely to fuck a barrel up with a cleaning rod then anything. Guys doing factory tours and talking to manufacturers who say barrel break in is pointless but they will give a procedure for the guys that want to do it so they can get the warm fuzzy. Like I always say do what floats your boat but I'm more worried about shit that matters like practicing wind calls and shooting any position beside prone. And here is the entire problem, I suggest you not come into a thread where the OP has put a huge amount of effort and care in providing as much accurate information as possible to the good people of this forum and crap on him when he defends his work. The info and methods provided by Molon are meant to be informative and practical and no where does he ever in any of his posts say "THIS IS THE DEFINITIVE ANSWER". He has contributed a vast amount of data to the benefit of every member here. He provides his data and allows the reader to decide. What have you contributed besides attacking the OP? If you have data contrary to Molon's then by all means please share, otherwise save it for GD. You don't care , so go away. |
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Molon thanks for tireless and data driven posts! pleasure to read keep up the good work! have you done any accuracy testing on Magtech 55 grain yet? the reason I ask is because 55 grain can be found all over while Magtech77 grain is like looking for a needle in a haystack. ETA if you plan on testing Magtech 55 grain in the future I am willing to help offset the cost of the ammo. |
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I ordered a krieger 'telephone' pole barrel today. I will follow the break in as posted above. I broke in my gap bolt guns as well and didn't feel I was wasting any time.
Again it blows my mind someone goes out of their way to share with others what they know and people bash saying you just want your name plastered on it. There is a reason Molon has so many tacked threads and it is because he is sharing method rather than madness. It would be interesting to see another barrel before and after over the same shot progression without the cleaning. Not to 200 round etc but one with a proper clean to 20 rounds and one with just firing 20 rounds. I unlike most others around here am not going to ask someone else to spend hard earned money to get it done. Maybe another barrel maker will supply the barrels for that specific test. |
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I will throw in some of my experience although without pictures. I used to do the whole break in process. Mostly because it was the way to do it and it was passed down as the way it should be done. I decided to test it for myself and again no pictures but I didn't see any difference in accuracy performance or ease of cleaning in my barrels that had a shoot one, clean etc break in and what I do now which is clean the barrel when I receive it from the smith, go out and shoot it to zero scope and test accuracy(usually about 20-40 rounds), come home and give it a good cleaning, another range day shooting groups(again usually about 40 rounds) and then one more cleaning and then that's it. Clean when needed or if it will be stored for months at a time. Been doing it this way for over a decade now on my match rifles and they shoot very accurately and clean fast.
The shoot one and clean method is fine as long as you use proper cleaning methods but I would rather shoot so I don't mess with it anymore. Also so you know a lot of good smiths feel the same. I know George at GAP does. GAP only put the break in method on their site because of constant questions from their customers on it. George just shoots his rifles. |
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More running of your pie hole and still no data. Seems that's all you're capable of. .. Quoted:
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I would like to see two identical barrels then have one go through a break in procedure and the other one just shot. Been there, done that, and already posted a bore-scope view from one of my several Noveske barrels to demonstrate in my original posts. ... Dude why do you freak out and take this subject so personally every time? http://www.top10homeremedies.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/feat-unhealthy-vagina-277x190.jpg Anyone who devotes their entire existence to shooting, just so they can have their links pinned to the tech section shouldn't be taken lightly. If you disagree with anything this guy says, he goes full derp.....
More running of your pie hole and still no data. Seems that's all you're capable of. .. Try reading through my recent posts on this forum........I posted up a couple of my groups from my RA 16" ultra match thus far, and what my break in/cleaning routine has been (as per WOA). Not sure exactly what more you are asking/requiring from a recreational shooter such as myself. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_16_4/53_Lets_see_your_semi_auto_precision_rifles_Pics_.html&page=42 |
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Facts are difficult things. They don't go away. The fact remains that many, many barrel makers for high precision and competition shooting are reaching the same conclusion based on hard data:
That conclusion is heavily slanted toward a formal break in procedure. Although the exact technique varies, they are recognizing that removing the reamer marks from the throat of tight throat precision rifle barrels is a good thing and failure to do it promptly makes removing resulting copper build up progressively harder with time. The bullet jacket is in contact with this throat prior to completely entering the bore. That build up of copper is both in the throat and downstream in the bore. There are lots of bore scope photos that show all of this. Irregularities in the throat from this build up and in the actual bore from this build up do not contribute to better accuracy. |
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Facts are difficult things. They don't go away. The fact remains that many, many barrel makers for high precision and competition shooting are reaching the same conclusion based on hard data: That conclusion is heavily slanted toward a formal break in procedure. Although the exact technique varies, they are recognizing that removing the reamer marks from the throat of tight throat precision rifle barrels is a good thing and failure to do it promptly makes removing resulting copper build up progressively harder with time. The bullet jacket is in contact with this throat prior to completely entering the bore. That build up of copper is both in the throat and downstream in the bore. There are lots of bore scope photos that show all of this. Irregularities in the throat from this build up and in the actual bore from this build up do not contribute to better accuracy. I am in agreement with all of this! Be that as it may, your assertions are predicated on the fact that there are large numbers of shooters in here who are actually willing to devote the time, energy to such procedures. I hate to generalize, but I would contend that the majority of shooters who frequent an AR-15 dedicated (not a precision based forum) are recreational, and just want to shoot decent groups on the weekends, instead of using borescopes, charts, graphs.....devoting countless years, ammo, time to such a cause seems incredulous for the said recreational shooter. I must concede that Molon knows his shit, and that his contributions to the community deserve praise. What I do take exception with however, is that he belittles anyone who challenges him, and professes everything he posts and proclaims as dogma. There have been several people who have commented on the exact same thing (including this thread) in regards to his self-aggrandizing. There is no end all be all procedures for barrel break in...which is exactly why you get so many contrasting view points on the topic. |
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Would it be better to break in a barrel using steel jacketed ammo? For example, you could use something like cheap Wolf or Tula in your 5.56/223 barrel.
It seems like it would help the barrel wear in faster, and also deposit less copper (because the jackets are copper plated steel jackets). I asked a AR barrel manufacturer (who recommends breaking in his barrels) about this. He said it was a bad idea. But honestly, it may have simply been because he didn't think of it first. So I'd appreciate any other thoughts and comments on this. Thanks. HighSpeedSteel |
| Steel on steel seems not such a good idea. I would think the barrel manufacturer has it right. You really don't want the barrel bore to "wear in", certainly not a hand-lapped barrel, just remove the tool marks in the throat. Even those manufacturers who recommend aftermarket abrasive paste typically reserve that as a last resort after a lot of copper fouling. |
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ETA if you plan on testing Magtech 55 grain in the future I am willing to help offset the cost of the ammo. Your generous offer is greatly appreciated, (albeit not necessary.) If I can get caught up on my test schedule for this summer, I'll try to add the Magtech 55 grain ammunition to The List. .... |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - AR-15 Barrel Break-In (Page 1 of 2)
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