Posted: 1/26/2015 1:26:49 PM EDT
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So I went to the range the other day to zero my spr build and was finding that my new barrel was shooting all over the place. Had a bipod and sand bag which made a very stable platform. I don't have pictures of the targets, but I would guess the groupings were, at best, 4 MOA. I was using CBC 62gr and have put about 200 rounds through the barrel prior to this trip.
I'm wondering if anyone has had this experience and what courses of action to take to tighten the group. My first plan is to run all kinds of ammo through it. I'm thinking various 77gr, 75gr, 69gr, M855, and M193. I've just heard so many good things about this barrel that I feel like a 4 MOA group with any ammo is unheard of. Hell, I've even heard Wolf does better than that. |
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You're not the first to have this problem with this barrel. Although better ammo is certainly the first recommendation. http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=541&f=5515&t=13552456&p=1 Interesting thread. I surely hope the barrel nut doesn't play that much into mine. I put it on and off 3 times then torqued to about 60 or 70 in order to time the handguard. I forgot to mention I have a silencerco specwar muzzle brake at the end. I just placed an order for Hornady, federal, ppu, and cbc match ammo (cbc was the 77gr stuff). I'll get a range report once the ammo comes in. Btw, what is that program called that measures moa? |
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I think it's called ontarget. It's really useful for measuring mean radius, which in my opinion is a better indicator of overall accuracy than extreme spread. Thanks, maybe I'll use it once I get back from the ammo test. I feel like I'm a decent shot from the bench but then again maybe I'm not... I may bring my 16" BCM upper and see how that compares as well. |
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My Noveske Afghan SS barrel shoots like shit.
I contacted Noveske and they explained to me that accuracy is subjective. Furthermore, they told me 1.3 to 1.8 inch groups at 100 yards is good. I just wanted to share my disdain for a product everyone recommends. I wish you luck, bro. Hopefully yours is better than mine. |
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My Noveske Afghan SS barrel shoots like shit. I contacted Noveske and they explained to me that accuracy is subjective. Furthermore, they told me 1.3 to 1.8 inch groups at 100 yards is good. I just wanted to share my disdain for a product everyone recommends. I wish you luck, bro. Hopefully yours is better than mine. I think I would even be happy with 1.5 at 100 yards. I'm talking like side paper plate sized groupings. Regardless, I have 4 different kinds of ammo coming from psa (hopefully soon) and I will post targets when I get a chance... Probably within two weeks. I've purchased KG Products -1, -2, -3, and -12 so I will run a quick cleaning between each type of ammo. I'll also bring my 16" AR with H-1 for a comparison. Any other suggestions? |
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I think I would even be happy with 1.5 at 100 yards. I'm talking like side paper plate sized groupings. Regardless, I have 4 different kinds of ammo coming from psa (hopefully soon) and I will post targets when I get a chance... Probably within two weeks. I've purchased KG Products -1, -2, -3, and -12 so I will run a quick cleaning between each type of ammo. I'll also bring my 16" AR with H-1 for a comparison. Any other suggestions? Quoted:
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My Noveske Afghan SS barrel shoots like shit. I contacted Noveske and they explained to me that accuracy is subjective. Furthermore, they told me 1.3 to 1.8 inch groups at 100 yards is good. I just wanted to share my disdain for a product everyone recommends. I wish you luck, bro. Hopefully yours is better than mine. I think I would even be happy with 1.5 at 100 yards. I'm talking like side paper plate sized groupings. Regardless, I have 4 different kinds of ammo coming from psa (hopefully soon) and I will post targets when I get a chance... Probably within two weeks. I've purchased KG Products -1, -2, -3, and -12 so I will run a quick cleaning between each type of ammo. I'll also bring my 16" AR with H-1 for a comparison. Any other suggestions? Not for a barrel that costs that much. The barrel should be capable of sub MOA for what the Noveskes cost. Rainier Arms and Odin Works both have barrels in the $250 area that guarantee MOA or better or your money back. |
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Well I called Noveske over lunch and they basically held no responsibility for barrel precision and claimed there were too many factors involved. I agree with that, partially. Considering I've shot better groups with a regular FN barrel, I'm willing to assume it's not entirely shooter error.
In the end, they did say that if I tried all the tricks, they would let me send it back for further inspection. So there's that... |
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I have run the "pepsi challenge" with three different Noveske barrels.
4-5 years ago, I compared a 12.5" SS Noveske barreled MSTN build in 1/7, with a 12.5" CL Noveske barreled MSTN. I used the following BH ammo (some red, some blue) as well as good-ol XM193. I was using a Trijicon 2-10 x 56 with a illuminated dot reticle. Best 5 shot group was probably just under 1" at 100 yards. Some of the ammo was up to 4" at 100 yards. 50 gn,52 gn, 60 gn, 68 gn, 69 gn, 75 gn and 77 gn, all .223 (no 5.56) Generally, both of these barrels liked the heavier bullets, but they both hated 69 gn SMK. Overall, the Stainless Barreled upper shot just a tiny bit better than the CL Barreled upper. I removed my Stainless Barrel and added a CL barrel afterwards. Just a month ago, I shot basically the same loads through another MSTN/Noveske, this time an 18" 1/8 3-groove. Interestingly, XM193 shifted about 2 inches to the left, with the other black hills loads, as well as a 5.56 77gn Black Hills red box, each hitting center of target. The 50gn, 75 gn, and 77 gn .223 were all better than the others. the 5.56 loaded 77 gn was a slight disappointment. Best 5 shot group was approximately 0.8", with a bunch at 1-1.2". All shooting was at 100 yards with a US Optics 1.8-10 x 37. All this to say, great barrels can shoot some ammo very well, and other ammo not so well. Also, I believe Noveske's goal was (is?) a balance of reliability, longevity, and accuracy, versus the all-out, push the envelope, pursuit of accuracy. They are expensive barrels, the company has (right or wrong) developed a reputation for accuracy and a loyal base. I like mine, YMMV. |
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Not for a barrel that costs that much. The barrel should be capable of sub MOA for what the Noveskes cost. Rainier Arms and Odin Works both have barrels in the $250 area that guarantee MOA or better or your money back. Quoted:
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My Noveske Afghan SS barrel shoots like shit. I contacted Noveske and they explained to me that accuracy is subjective. Furthermore, they told me 1.3 to 1.8 inch groups at 100 yards is good. I just wanted to share my disdain for a product everyone recommends. I wish you luck, bro. Hopefully yours is better than mine. I think I would even be happy with 1.5 at 100 yards. I'm talking like side paper plate sized groupings. Regardless, I have 4 different kinds of ammo coming from psa (hopefully soon) and I will post targets when I get a chance... Probably within two weeks. I've purchased KG Products -1, -2, -3, and -12 so I will run a quick cleaning between each type of ammo. I'll also bring my 16" AR with H-1 for a comparison. Any other suggestions? Not for a barrel that costs that much. The barrel should be capable of sub MOA for what the Noveskes cost. Rainier Arms and Odin Works both have barrels in the $250 area that guarantee MOA or better or your money back. Bingo. |
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Bingo. Quoted:
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My Noveske Afghan SS barrel shoots like shit. I contacted Noveske and they explained to me that accuracy is subjective. Furthermore, they told me 1.3 to 1.8 inch groups at 100 yards is good. I just wanted to share my disdain for a product everyone recommends. I wish you luck, bro. Hopefully yours is better than mine. I think I would even be happy with 1.5 at 100 yards. I'm talking like side paper plate sized groupings. Regardless, I have 4 different kinds of ammo coming from psa (hopefully soon) and I will post targets when I get a chance... Probably within two weeks. I've purchased KG Products -1, -2, -3, and -12 so I will run a quick cleaning between each type of ammo. I'll also bring my 16" AR with H-1 for a comparison. Any other suggestions? Not for a barrel that costs that much. The barrel should be capable of sub MOA for what the Noveskes cost. Rainier Arms and Odin Works both have barrels in the $250 area that guarantee MOA or better or your money back Bingo. So was it worth getting the Noveske barrel? I sure as hell hope so. 
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I sold a 18" Noveske because the best I could get from it was about 1 - 1.25 MOA with handloads. Factory match ammo was around 2 MOA. For a $500 AR barrel that was pretty sorry. I got better groups with the WOA barrel I had before and get even better groups now with the Douglas I got from CLE.
No more Noveske for me. |
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I sold a 18" Noveske because the best I could get from it was about 1 - 1.25 MOA with handloads. Factory match ammo was around 2 MOA. For a $500 AR barrel that was pretty sorry. I got better groups with the WOA barrel I had before and get even better groups now with the Douglas I got from CLE. No more Noveske for me. I think if I try all of these things and there's no improvement, I will feel the same way. As I've mentioned before, they are willing to take a look at it if all else fails so I feel a bit better in case I got a lemon. I believe someone said above that they try to balance reliability with precision, so I'd rather have a barrel last 10-20k rounds and be less accurate than a barrel that lasts half as long but only shoots marginally better. My happy place is one where I can hit a human sized target at 600 yards. Anything further or smaller I would think I'd want a bolt gun. Maybe I'm too nice, though. |
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I would not expect better than 1.5MOA from any of the Privi match ammunition. None of my barrels have shot better than that with it. 4MOA is pretty bad, so I would want to check it with another scope just to eliminate a possible problem. After that I would try handloads increasing my load by .2gr at a time. A load my 18" DPMS barrel likes is a 77gr Sierra Matchking over 23.4gr of Varget. |
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I would not expect better than 1.5MOA from any of the Privi match ammunition. None of my barrels have shot better than that with it. 4MOA is pretty bad, so I would want to check it with another scope just to eliminate a possible problem. After that I would try handloads increasing my load by .2gr at a time. A load my 18" DPMS barrel likes is a 77gr Sierra Matchking over 23.4gr of Varget I pretty much bought any match ammo I could find, I figure its worth the money for R&D haha, especially since now I get to have a brand behind the ammo in case Noveske takes it and shoots 1MOA in their testing, I can then get a brand back. I don't reload and don't plan on it for a while. I have zero supplies for reloading and just recently started my stamp collection so that's more of a "priority". |
Noveske 14.5” Afghan barrel. 10-shot group at 100 yards. Extreme spread: 0.941”.
Noveske 16” Recon barrel. 10-shot group at 100 yards. Extreme spread: 0.81”. 
Noveske 18” SPR barrel. 10-shot group at 100 yards. Exrtreme spread: 0.732”. 
Noveske 20” DCM barrel. 10-shot group at 100 yards. Extreme spread: 0.726”. 
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Noveske 14.5” Afghan barrel. 10-shot group at 100 yards. Extreme spread: 0.941”. https://app.box.com/shared/static/xnwelom2butk5uq5ak17d1677z8nnkdk.jpg Noveske 16” Recon barrel. 10-shot group at 100 yards. Extreme spread: 0.81”. http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/8924/noveskereccecontolload01ll8.jpg Noveske 18” SPR barrel. 10-shot group at 100 yards. Exrtreme spread: 0.732”. https://app.box.com/shared/static/mz86cj4wv7tqu8ouwva5f05um7h3s5yb.jpg Noveske 20” DCM barrel. 10-shot group at 100 yards. Extreme spread: 0.726”. http://www.box.net/shared/static/9p6kf1904l.jpg .... How long ago where these groups fired? I know Noveske developed a reputation for a reason, but from the reviews I've seen lately it seems maybe their performance isn't what it once was. I don't believe there are any Noveske barreled rifles any where near the top of the moa all day challenge rankings. |
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Try a bunch of loads before determining your barrel is crap. I tried at least 7 different brands, with the worst shooting ~4moa and the best right at 3/4". Some barrels just don't like some loads. I just need to get some nosler and bh and I should have a lot of the top match rounds. Still waiting on psa as always... |
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That would be 3.29 MOA; based off the average width shoulder-to-shoulder of an adult male which is 19" inches nominal. Quoted:
Quoted: My happy place is one where I can hit a human sized target at 600 yards. That would be 3.29 MOA; based off the average width shoulder-to-shoulder of an adult male which is 19" inches nominal. Okay that's a bit much. I would think 1.5moa would be acceptable to me but I would be buying another barrel shortly after... Sub moa at 100 yards is my real goal here. |
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How long ago where these groups fired? I know Noveske developed a reputation for a reason, but from the reviews I've seen lately it seems maybe their performance isn't what it once was. I don't believe there are any Noveske barreled rifles any where near the top of the moa all day challenge rankings. Quoted:
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Noveske 14.5” Afghan barrel. 10-shot group at 100 yards. Extreme spread: 0.941”. https://app.box.com/shared/static/xnwelom2butk5uq5ak17d1677z8nnkdk.jpg Noveske 16” Recon barrel. 10-shot group at 100 yards. Extreme spread: 0.81”. http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/8924/noveskereccecontolload01ll8.jpg Noveske 18” SPR barrel. 10-shot group at 100 yards. Exrtreme spread: 0.732”. https://app.box.com/shared/static/mz86cj4wv7tqu8ouwva5f05um7h3s5yb.jpg Noveske 20” DCM barrel. 10-shot group at 100 yards. Extreme spread: 0.726”. http://www.box.net/shared/static/9p6kf1904l.jpg .... How long ago where these groups fired? I know Noveske developed a reputation for a reason, but from the reviews I've seen lately it seems maybe their performance isn't what it once was. I don't believe there are any Noveske barreled rifles any where near the top of the moa all day challenge rankings. You know, I have been seeing a lot of recent complaints about barrel precision from noveske. Never had put 2 and 2 together and thought their qc may be dropping off... Dull reamers, throwing burrs, etc. After I spoke with them on the phone, the gentleman was convinced I hadn't broken in my barrel after 100 rounds. I was under the assumption that it took maybe 25-50, but I could be wrong. |
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I have a Noveske 18" barrel. It didn't shoot very well at first. It did improve and shoots very nice now. I would estimate in the 200 round area before I saw any improvement. Good to know. I'll be out on private land this weekend so no precision tests. I will try and run another 100 rounds through it, cleaning after every 20 or so... Just a basic bore snake. Hopefully after that I'll have a broken in barrel and will take it to the range and get another test in. |
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Lemon - every manufacturer can have a bad day. Unless they have extremely stringent quality control measures throughout the manufacturing process, then some junk can get made and sent out the door periodically. There is this guy named Murphy, and he likes to show up for work occasionally! If that is the case, then any quality manufacturer should recognize the issue and do whatever it takes to fix it.
Break In - it is possible that a barrel will need a certain amount of rounds put through it before it will shoot its best. Many barrels will have some kind of imperfections/tool marks from the manufacturing process and shooting can smooth these out to some degree. That doesn't mean that a barrel should go from being 2 MOA to 3/4 MOA with break in. Purchase a barrel that is quality control checked, and lapped after the manufacturing process, and you will not have these issues! It is purely speculation, though based on many recent reports of problems, it seems that since the loss of John Noveske (RIP), that there has been a drop in quality. Best of Luck, M Richardson |
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Lemon - every manufacturer can have a bad day. Unless they have extremely stringent quality control measures throughout the manufacturing process, then some junk can get made and sent out the door periodically. There is this guy named Murphy, and he likes to show up for work occasionally! If that is the case, then any quality manufacturer should recognize the issue and do whatever it takes to fix it. I can't tell you how many times he's shown up in this build. Honestly, most of it was from Noveske. Barrel was shipped sans gas block pin. Called and they sent one. Shot it for the first time, pin literally falls out. Call back, they send two. These two were bigger axially. First one wouldn't drive in and seized up. Finally got the second one in and now this. Break In - it is possible that a barrel will need a certain amount of rounds put through it before it will shoot its best. Many barrels will have some kind of imperfections/tool marks from the manufacturing process and shooting can smooth these out to some degree. That doesn't mean that a barrel should go from being 2 MOA to 3/4 MOA with break in. These were my thoughts as well. Hopefully the new ammo will be better, though. Purchase a barrel that is quality control checked, and lapped after the manufacturing process, and you will not have these issues! Any recommendations? Krieger, Douglas, etc? It is purely speculation, though based on many recent reports of problems, it seems that since the loss of John Noveske (RIP), that there has been a drop in quality. Unfortunately, this wouldn't be the first time I've heard this to be honest. Best of Luck, M Richardson |
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I have Noveske barrels going back over ten years, every one is a hammer. I haven't purchased anything since John's accident but doubt much has changed in their process or employees used. Not saying that other's haven't had issues, I just bet they'll stand behind any barrel that's sub-par.
Compass Lake Engineering and White Oak Precision make excellent barrels. Rainer Arms Ultra barrels are outstanding as well. Any of these would be my first picks for an accuracy build. I haven't purchased any .223 ammo in over 25 years. Ball ammo is hideous, the best of it usually shoots 2.5" or bigger groups at 100 yards. I routinely get 1" groups and occasionally 5/8" groups using Sierra 52/53 grain Match Kings and Sierra's 69 grain Match King bullets. The closest commercial ammo would be Federal Gold Medal Match, Hornady match or Black Hills match ammo. You are not going to get consistent results from military surplus ever. I personally am not crazy about Krieger barrels. I have 1/7.7 and 1/8 twist Krieger's and they are no better than the WOA barrels that cost $200 less. When I pay more I want more. Douglas barrels are button rifled and graded with an air gage. Wilson uses the same process, so does Criterion. Shilen makes a very good barrel, Lothar-Walther and Pac-Nor blanks can be turned by any competent gunsmith if you want to by-pass Noveske. Compass Lake Engineering will turn any blank you send them, at least they used to. White Oak Precision used to as well. That leaves the door wide open, Bartlein, Schneider, Brux, Hart, Broughton and at least a half dozen other premium barrel makers are out there. Since the great panic has mostly subsided you have all sorts of options available. |
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Personally, I experienced positive results with my 20" DCM Krieger barrel 1/7.7 twist using 75 grain red box match hills .223 and FGMM 69 grain ammo.
I shot the MOA all day challenge with a rear squeeze bag using my home built 20" DCM Kreiger barrel and factory match ammo, so my accuracy is documented somewhat. I also was impressed by the accuracy of my AR performance 6.5 Grendel barrel; as a result, I will soon be in possession of a 16" 223 ARP barrel. The 16" Rainier Match barrel I sold was more accurate than my Noveske afghan barrel. My centurion arms 14.5" CHF barrel was also more accurate than my Noveske afghan, which really surprised me. All I can say is that I think I bought a lemon; however, it appears many others on this forum and other forums have had issues with the accuracy of their SS Noveske barrels. Keep in mind, I bought this barrel before John's passing. Sample size of one, my information is statistically irrelevant, but I would recommend the barrels mentioned above before purchasing another Noveske. |
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Personally, I experienced positive results with my 20" DCM Krieger barrel 1/7.7 twist using 75 grain red box match hills .223 and FGMM 69 grain ammo. I shot the MOA all day challenge with a rear squeeze bag using my home built 20" DCM Kreiger barrel and factory match ammo, so my accuracy is documented somewhat. I also was impressed by the accuracy of my AR performance 6.5 Grendel barrel; as a result, I will soon be in possession of a 16" 223 ARP barrel. The 16" Rainier Match barrel I sold was more accurate than my Noveske afghan barrel. My centurion arms 14.5" CHF barrel was also more accurate than my Noveske afghan, which really surprised me. All I can say is that I think I bought a lemon; however, it appears many others on this forum and other forums have had issues with the accuracy of their SS Noveske barrels. Keep in mind, I bought this barrel before John's passing. Sample size of one, my information is statistically irrelevant, but I would recommend the barrels mentioned above before purchasing another Noveske. Statistically indeterminate, yes. However I feel as though people who get sub-par results from spending top dollar are the ones who speak out. If they sell 1000 barrels a year and 10 people complain about precision, then I'd say 1% isn't too bad. When you compare it to other barrel manufacturers who sell much much more and get consistent results, I believe they are doing something right. Regardless, before I make any accusations, I'm going to thoroughly run this barrel to be absolutely sure before I send it back or whatever I choose to do with it. I do appreciate the feedback from everyone. I'd love to have a sub MOA gun with match ammo, but I'd love more to have a 1-2 MOA gun with cheap plinking ammo because I feel that that is where I'll have the most fun. |
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Statistically indeterminate, yes. However I feel as though people who get sub-par results from spending top dollar are the ones who speak out. If they sell 1000 barrels a year and 10 people complain about precision, then I'd say 1% isn't too bad. When you compare it to other barrel manufacturers who sell much much more and get consistent results, I believe they are doing something right. Regardless, before I make any accusations, I'm going to thoroughly run this barrel to be absolutely sure before I send it back or whatever I choose to do with it. I do appreciate the feedback from everyone. I'd love to have a sub MOA gun with match ammo, but I'd love more to have a 1-2 MOA gun with cheap plinking ammo because I feel that that is where I'll have the most fun. Quoted:
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Personally, I experienced positive results with my 20" DCM Krieger barrel 1/7.7 twist using 75 grain red box match hills .223 and FGMM 69 grain ammo. I shot the MOA all day challenge with a rear squeeze bag using my home built 20" DCM Kreiger barrel and factory match ammo, so my accuracy is documented somewhat. I also was impressed by the accuracy of my AR performance 6.5 Grendel barrel; as a result, I will soon be in possession of a 16" 223 ARP barrel. The 16" Rainier Match barrel I sold was more accurate than my Noveske afghan barrel. My centurion arms 14.5" CHF barrel was also more accurate than my Noveske afghan, which really surprised me. All I can say is that I think I bought a lemon; however, it appears many others on this forum and other forums have had issues with the accuracy of their SS Noveske barrels. Keep in mind, I bought this barrel before John's passing. Sample size of one, my information is statistically irrelevant, but I would recommend the barrels mentioned above before purchasing another Noveske. Statistically indeterminate, yes. However I feel as though people who get sub-par results from spending top dollar are the ones who speak out. If they sell 1000 barrels a year and 10 people complain about precision, then I'd say 1% isn't too bad. When you compare it to other barrel manufacturers who sell much much more and get consistent results, I believe they are doing something right. Regardless, before I make any accusations, I'm going to thoroughly run this barrel to be absolutely sure before I send it back or whatever I choose to do with it. I do appreciate the feedback from everyone. I'd love to have a sub MOA gun with match ammo, but I'd love more to have a 1-2 MOA gun with cheap plinking ammo because I feel that that is where I'll have the most fun. Please keep us updated on your results. |
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Purchase a barrel that is quality control checked, and lapped after the manufacturing process, and you will not have these issues! Lapping does nothing to remove the tool marks from the leade. The bore-scope view pictured below is from a brand new Krieger barrel that was lapped by Krieger. As can be clearly seen, the leade still has prominent tool marks that run perpendicular to the direction of the lands (which will degrade accuracy.) 
The next bore-scope view is from the same Krieger barrel as above, only this time the picture was taken after a proper break-in procedure was conducted. As can be clearly seen, the tool marks are gone from the leade and the "grain" is running in the same direction as the lands. 
This last bore-scope view shows the leade of a Noveske Afghan barrel after I fired 200 rounds through the barrel and cleaned it; only this barrel did not have a break-in procedure performed on it. Even after 200 rounds were fired through this barrel, it still has some tool marks remaining in the leade. 
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I personally am not crazy about Krieger barrels. I have 1/7.7 and 1/8 twist Krieger's and they are no better than the WOA barrels that cost $200 less. "WOA (AR-15) barrels that cost $200 less" are not going to do this: a 10-shot group fired from a Krieger barreled AR-15 at 100 yards that has an extreme spread of 0.474". 
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I would not expect better than 1.5MOA from any of the Privi match ammunition. None of my barrels have shot better than that with it. 100 Yard Accuracy Evaluation of Prvi Partizan 75 grain Match Ammunition. 
The Prvi Partizan 75 grain match ammunition uses an open-tip-match bullet very similar in configuration to Hornady’s 75 grain BTHP bullet used in Hornady’s TAP line of ammunition and in Black Hills’ 75 grain MHP line of ammunition. The Prvi Partizan (PPU) bullet has a nominal length that runs approximately 0.010” – 0.015” shorter than the Hornady bullet. The PPU 75 grain bullet does not have a cannelure, but the case mouth on this load does have a slight collet crimp on it which puts a slight crease in the bullet. 
The PPU 75 grain match load uses Boxer primed brass cases and is charged with “ball” powder. Neither the primer nor the case mouth have sealant and the primer is not crimped. Previous chronographing of this load through multiple barrel lengths shows it to run an average of 127 fps slower than the Black Hills 75 grain MHP load. 
I have read some statements recently that claim the PPU 75 grain bullet was designed to shoot well through 1:9” twist barrels, yet none of those making these statements have provided any scientific evidence to support this claim. According to the Greenhill formula, the optimal twist for the PPU 75 grain bullet is 1:7.6”. From a 1:9” twist barrel, the PPU 75 grain match bullet has a gyroscopic stability factor (GSF) of less than 1.25 for all velocities. It is generally accepted that a rifle bullet should have a GSF of 1.5 to 2, with 1.25 being the least acceptable GSF. Gyroscopc stability factor from a 1:9" twist barrel. 
Gyroscopic stability factor from a 1:7.7" twist barrel. 
The test-vehicle for this evaluation was an AR-15 with a 24” stainless-steel Kreiger VarMatch barrel, with a 1:7.7” twist, installed on a LaRue Tactical Stealth upper receiver. A Leupold Competition Series Scope was used for sighting. No malfunctions of any kind were experienced during testing. Following my usual protocol for accuracy evaluation, shooting was done from a bench-rest at 100 yards. Three 10-shot groups were obtained using the PPU 75 grain match load. Those three groups had extreme spreads that measured: 0.66” 0.92” 1.14” for an average extreme spread of 0.91”. The best 10-shot group from 100 yards. 
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Lapping does nothing to remove the tool marks from the leade. The bore-scope view pictured below is from a brand new Krieger barrel that was lapped by Krieger. As can be clearly seen, the leade still has prominent tool marks that run perpendicular to the direction of the lands (which will degrade accuracy.) .... Quoted:
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Purchase a barrel that is quality control checked, and lapped after the manufacturing process, and you will not have these issues! Lapping does nothing to remove the tool marks from the leade. The bore-scope view pictured below is from a brand new Krieger barrel that was lapped by Krieger. As can be clearly seen, the leade still has prominent tool marks that run perpendicular to the direction of the lands (which will degrade accuracy.) .... http://www.riflebarrels.com/faq_lilja_rifle_barrels.htm#hand Q. What is hand lapping?
A. The hand lapping process, that all of our barrels undergo, ensures that you will receive a rifle barrel that has the very best and most desirable type of internal finish that we can provide. . . . . . SNIP . . . . Our process completely eliminates all tooling marks from the inside of the barrel. And very importantly the resulting finish runs parallel with the rifling. I am not trying to argue with your pictures, just throwing out that companies like Lilja would claim otherwise. All barrels will have some degree of unwanted tool marks and flaws after the manufacturing process. They can range from from major ones that have a very negative impact on accuracy, to very minor ones that will have no significant impact on accuracy. Some of the very minor tool marks can be smoothed/removed with firing/break in, and some are well beyond any hope! Per my original comments, there is no real substitute for a Borescope to really figure out where things stand. Best of Luck, M Richardson |
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100 Yard Accuracy Evaluation of Prvi Partizan 75 grain Match Ammunition. http://www.box.net/shared/static/3o4sakyz9f.jpg The Prvi Partizan 75 grain match ammunition uses an open-tip-match bullet very similar in configuration to Hornady’s 75 grain BTHP bullet used in Hornady’s TAP line of ammunition and in Black Hills’ 75 grain MHP line of ammunition. The Prvi Partizan (PPU) bullet has a nominal length that runs approximately 0.010” – 0.015” shorter than the Hornady bullet. The PPU 75 grain bullet does not have a cannelure, but the case mouth on this load does have a slight collet crimp on it which puts a slight crease in the bullet. http://www.box.net/shared/static/vu80fbl2dq.jpg http://www.box.net/shared/static/p2fj79s8ho.jpg The PPU 75 grain match load uses Boxer primed brass cases and is charged with “ball” powder. Neither the primer nor the case mouth have sealant and the primer is not crimped. Previous chronographing of this load through multiple barrel lengths shows it to run an average of 127 fps slower than the Black Hills 75 grain MHP load. http://www.box.net/shared/static/njsq0xh0sq.jpg http://www.box.net/shared/static/o515xpx4k1.jpg http://www.box.net/shared/static/d45v271mry.jpg I have read some statements recently that claim the PPU 75 grain bullet was designed to shoot well through 1:9” twist barrels, yet none of those making these statements have provided any scientific evidence to support this claim. According to the Greenhill formula, the optimal twist for the PPU 75 grain bullet is 1:7.6”. From a 1:9” twist barrel, the PPU 75 grain match bullet has a gyroscopic stability factor (GSF) of less than 1.25 for all velocities. It is generally accepted that a rifle bullet should have a GSF of 1.5 to 2, with 1.25 being the least acceptable GSF. Gyroscopc stability factor from a 1:9" twist barrel. http://www.box.net/shared/static/n5zdm1u8an.jpg Gyroscopic stability factor from a 1:7.7" twist barrel. http://www.box.net/shared/static/4dqy5u18rg.jpg The test-vehicle for this evaluation was an AR-15 with a 24” stainless-steel Kreiger VarMatch barrel, with a 1:7.7” twist, installed on a LaRue Tactical Stealth upper receiver. A Leupold Competition Series Scope was used for sighting. No malfunctions of any kind were experienced during testing. Following my usual protocol for accuracy evaluation, shooting was done from a bench-rest at 100 yards. Three 10-shot groups were obtained using the PPU 75 grain match load. Those three groups had extreme spreads that measured: 0.66” 0.92” 1.14” for an average extreme spread of 0.91”. The best 10-shot group from 100 yards. http://www.box.net/shared/static/4hfdi5ii9x.jpg .... Quoted:
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I would not expect better than 1.5MOA from any of the Privi match ammunition. None of my barrels have shot better than that with it. 100 Yard Accuracy Evaluation of Prvi Partizan 75 grain Match Ammunition. http://www.box.net/shared/static/3o4sakyz9f.jpg The Prvi Partizan 75 grain match ammunition uses an open-tip-match bullet very similar in configuration to Hornady’s 75 grain BTHP bullet used in Hornady’s TAP line of ammunition and in Black Hills’ 75 grain MHP line of ammunition. The Prvi Partizan (PPU) bullet has a nominal length that runs approximately 0.010” – 0.015” shorter than the Hornady bullet. The PPU 75 grain bullet does not have a cannelure, but the case mouth on this load does have a slight collet crimp on it which puts a slight crease in the bullet. http://www.box.net/shared/static/vu80fbl2dq.jpg http://www.box.net/shared/static/p2fj79s8ho.jpg The PPU 75 grain match load uses Boxer primed brass cases and is charged with “ball” powder. Neither the primer nor the case mouth have sealant and the primer is not crimped. Previous chronographing of this load through multiple barrel lengths shows it to run an average of 127 fps slower than the Black Hills 75 grain MHP load. http://www.box.net/shared/static/njsq0xh0sq.jpg http://www.box.net/shared/static/o515xpx4k1.jpg http://www.box.net/shared/static/d45v271mry.jpg I have read some statements recently that claim the PPU 75 grain bullet was designed to shoot well through 1:9” twist barrels, yet none of those making these statements have provided any scientific evidence to support this claim. According to the Greenhill formula, the optimal twist for the PPU 75 grain bullet is 1:7.6”. From a 1:9” twist barrel, the PPU 75 grain match bullet has a gyroscopic stability factor (GSF) of less than 1.25 for all velocities. It is generally accepted that a rifle bullet should have a GSF of 1.5 to 2, with 1.25 being the least acceptable GSF. Gyroscopc stability factor from a 1:9" twist barrel. http://www.box.net/shared/static/n5zdm1u8an.jpg Gyroscopic stability factor from a 1:7.7" twist barrel. http://www.box.net/shared/static/4dqy5u18rg.jpg The test-vehicle for this evaluation was an AR-15 with a 24” stainless-steel Kreiger VarMatch barrel, with a 1:7.7” twist, installed on a LaRue Tactical Stealth upper receiver. A Leupold Competition Series Scope was used for sighting. No malfunctions of any kind were experienced during testing. Following my usual protocol for accuracy evaluation, shooting was done from a bench-rest at 100 yards. Three 10-shot groups were obtained using the PPU 75 grain match load. Those three groups had extreme spreads that measured: 0.66” 0.92” 1.14” for an average extreme spread of 0.91”. The best 10-shot group from 100 yards. http://www.box.net/shared/static/4hfdi5ii9x.jpg .... Awesome ! Thanks for posting this Molon! |
| Yes thank you for that information Molon. Just got back from my buddies land today. I decided to go prone and shoot a group at 50 yards just to see what it was doing. Wasn't being meticulous or anything but I was shooting about 2 moa with the magtech 62gr ammo. Definitely felt better than before. We moved to a 175 yard spot and I was consistently hitting 10" steel. Still 5moa. Haven't proven anything just yet. |
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http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n121/IcatchEm/20150104_153809.jpg 100 yards. 75 grain Privi bullets under TAC. If you gun shoots that good with the bullets under the powder, I can't imagine how it will do once the bullet is over the TAC. 
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Hey OP did your or does Noveske include a test target with a barrel? Just wondering what they would shoot through it and if it had any documentation from the factory. (I'd guess nossler products bc they have some branded Noveske rounds on the website) Nope no target. I only bought the barrel so I wouldn't expect them to assemble an upper just to fire a group. Maybe on their complete uppers or rifles though. |
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Just to throw some smoke on the battlefield: I have a Noveske Afghan that absolutely hates Hornaday 68's and 75, with any load I've tried (and I've tried a bunch).... so just out of curiosity I loaded some 77 gr. Sierra MatchKings, and now have a sub-MOA gun.
My DPMS GII 308 is similar.... anything with a Hornaday bullet profile its a 4MOA gun.... Sierras = 1 MOA and Speer 125 TNT's = one MOA or less there's something about these two dissimilar rifles...maybe incompatibility between the leade and bullet profile? |
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Just to throw some smoke on the battlefield: I have a Noveske Afghan that absolutely hates Hornaday 68's and 75, with any load I've tried (and I've tried a bunch).... so just out of curiosity I loaded some 77 gr. Sierra MatchKings, and now have a sub-MOA gun. I worked hornady loads for 2 years and had decent, but not great results. I then loaded some 77gr SMK's. unbelievable the difference it made in my SPR. I was finally satisfied. |