Posted: 4/6/2015 6:09:09 PM EDT
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My experience is this:
I have a Varminter 26" heavy barrel Remington 1-12 twist. I used Berger 175's, Nosler 175's and Hornady 178's. I used 43 grain of 4064 and could not get them to group as well as the 168's with 44 grain of powder. I may try to increase to 43.5 grain and check for pressure issues to see what happens. the next thing I plan on doing is getting another rifle, this one with a 1-10 barrel. I think I will be able to make those 175's do a lot better in it. So far I have almost everything for this build, I just need the scope and the gun................ I plan on using the 1-12 twist gun for my 168 grain loads out to 800+ yards and the 1-10 twist gun for my 175 grain loads out to 1000+ yards............ |
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Sir,
I wish you the best of luck. I think that what you are going to find is that your groups are all about the same size or pretty close. What we don't see are velocity numbers and this will be critical. If you HAD a .001 10 shot group at 200 yds with a 50 FPS ES then your going to have an induced almost 12" of vertical dispersion at 1K. All of your groups look good enough so I would look for good velocity that is going to keep what ever bullet you choose supersonic at 1K, realistically you should have some room to spare and this will be tough (I don't know what length barrel you have) as your barrel is on the shorter side and it has a long throat. VLD bullets will help get you there with a little more room to spare. Accuracy wise, you need an honest 10 shot 1 MOA group, 3 MOA at 300 yds would be better then 1 MOA at 100 yds. I have said before and ill say again; Federal GM brass is soft and thick. Your primer pockets will open up fast and I don't think you will get the brass life you want and all that preparation and sorting of that brass will be for not, I would buy 100 sticks of Lapua brass and call it a day. I would load 43.5, shoot a 10 round group and crono it. You are not going to get 1/4 moa from most factory guns so I would be happy with .6 MOA or so. |
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You should try a few lighter bullets. A 175 grain bullet in a 1in12 barrel is marginal for being able to properly stabilize it. I would try something like a 168 or 165. Here is a good tool: http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/ Just used this. I understand this shouldn't be considered gospel at all, and I will only know for sure by shooting, but the Berger tool still claims that the stability is fine for the 175gr smk in a 1:12 barrel all the way down to 2300 FPS. I know I realistically need more than 2300FPS if I want to go to 1000yds, but I don't think it's unattainable, even for a 20" factory barrel. I AM new to this, so I admit I could be living a pipe dream. |
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I think that without knowing how fast you're going any load development, while fun and good practice, isn't going to be a great first step to finding a 1k load? You might get lucky and find a load that is going to get you the FPS you need but a chrony will both confirm that speed and let you know if your spread is at a long range minimum.
You may find a wonderful node for accuracy at 100 or 300 for accuracy but if it's only going 2450fps at the muzzle then 1k may be an issue. For 1K both accuracy and legs will get you there easier and consistency i.e. low ES will get you there reliably. Ditch the FGMM cases, they're not really a long term load unless you're constantly shooting commercial to get more cases. If Lapua are out of the question then you can try Lake City (the LR if you can find them). i get mine from brass bomber but there are several quality folks selling them. I've had pretty good results at 0.5 MOA with LC once fired and an ES around 11 on average with a 2630fps 178gr Amax out of a 20" 1 in 10 Savage. A DIY annealing job every 3 loads with some tempilac, a powered screwdriver and a socket should let you get a large number of loads especially if you're only neck sizing. |
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I think that without knowing how fast you're going any load development, while fun and good practice, isn't going to be a great first step to finding a 1k load? You might get lucky and find a load that is going to get you the FPS you need but a chrony will both confirm that speed and let you know if your spread is at a long range minimum. You may find a wonderful node for accuracy at 100 or 300 for accuracy but if it's only going 2450fps at the muzzle then 1k may be an issue. For 1K both accuracy and legs will get you there easier and consistency i.e. low ES will get you there reliably. Ditch the FGMM cases, they're not really a long term load unless you're constantly shooting commercial to get more cases. If Lapua are out of the question then you can try Lake City (the LR if you can find them). i get mine from brass bomber but there are several quality folks selling them. I've had pretty good results at 0.5 MOA with LC once fired and an ES around 11 on average with a 2630fps 178gr Amax out of a 20" 1 in 10 Savage. A DIY annealing job every 3 loads with some tempilac, a powered screwdriver and a socket should let you get a large number of loads especially if you're only neck sizing. Thank you. I agree completely, and am currently trying to get together with someone who owns a chrono so that I can check my velocity and ES/SD. Just can't purchase one yet until funds come in. The FGMM brass is just a necessary evil right now, since that's what I have been testing this gun with prior to getting my .308 reloading components. Now that I am set up I am absolutly going to but 1-200 Lapua cases and use the Federal for a hunting load work up. Annealing is something I am learning about now, but have never done. |
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Reading through all the posts again, I feel like I failed to make something clear. This rifle is going to be used for fun and hunting, not competions. I fully understand my barrel's limitations, and am not expecting sub-.5MOA groups out of it at ANY distance. I am happy now with 1MOA or less out to 500+- yds, and would LOVE to be able to shoot 1.5MOA or less at 1000yds.
This is my first "precision" rifle, and I'm having enough fun already that I am planning another rifle in a 6, 6.5, or 260 caliber for better precision at distance. But I'm not financially ready to do all that right now, and feel like cutting my teeth on this .308 can only help me become a better shooter in the long run. |
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The FGMM brass is just a necessary evil right now, since that's what I have been testing this gun with prior to getting my .308 reloading components. Now that I am set up I am absolutly going to but 1-200 Lapua cases and use the Federal for a hunting load work up. The load you work up in the FGMM brass will not "be all that great" in Lapua brass later on. I have seen 0.4-0.5gr differences in load changing between thee 2 case brands. In addition, I have seen as much as 0.3gr differences between different lots of the same brass (manufacture). So, when you change brass, it is back to sage 0, drop down, build back up, then tune. About the only thing that you keep from set of cases to set of cases is brass working skills. |
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About the only thing that you keep from set of cases to set of cases is brass working skills. And more time behind the gun, learning to read wind, improve my fundamentals, etc. I'm not new to reloading in general, just for precision. I know when I change any one component I'm starting over from scratch. And even if I only get two or three reloads out of the current brass, I'm still getting a baseline on where to start when I get to pick up some Lapua brass, all while practicing with ammo that is more consistent than factory. The way I take your last post is that until I have the components I'm going to load exclusively, then any reloading or shooting I do is essentially pissing in the wind. No one gets better at marksmanship unless they actually shoot, and reloading lowly FGMM once fired brass is doubling my shooting right now. |
| You can continue to use the FGGM brass. What you are going to find is that after 1-2 reloads the primer pockets are going to get big and the primers will be very easy to seat. You will fire the brass, gas will escape around the primer until it can seal and etch your bolt face. After some number of these you will just have to replace your bolt. |
QFT the only way to get better is to shoot. Trigger control, wind reads, breathing, holds. Doesn't matter what you're shooting, just shoot. The purposes of standardizing on a repeatable quality load for me is just to eliminate the variables so that bad shots are (mostly) my fault. Not variables of cases, the powder weight accuracy, seating depth etc. Although that jackass next to you who intentionally waits till you're settled in before randomly letting go with a .50 with a brake and no suppressor, can certainly be one of those random variables you can't control as well. 
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then any reloading or shooting I do is essentially pissing in the wind. No one gets better at marksmanship unless they actually shoot, and reloading lowly FGMM once fired brass is doubling my shooting right now. |
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QFT the only way to get better is to shoot. Trigger control, wind reads, breathing, holds. Doesn't matter what you're shooting, just shoot. The purposes of standardizing on a repeatable quality load for me is just to eliminate the variables so that bad shots are (mostly) my fault. Not variables of cases, the powder weight accuracy, seating depth etc. Although that jackass next to you who intentionally waits till you're settled in before randomly letting go with a .50 with a brake and no suppressor, can certainly be one of those random variables you can't control as well.
Agreed completly. I know I'm putting a lot of work into this load given the short life of the brass I'm using, but I am loading as consistently as possible so I know when something is off it's me, not the load. I sort the brass by weight, all my powder charges are exact, cases are trimmed to the same length, and COAL is the same (measure every one individually). It IS a lot of work, but it's good practice, both with reloading experience and shots fired. Sometimes I forget how lucky I am when it comes to this. On my property I can shoot up to 350yds without leaving my house, and our family farm has fields with excellent backstops all the way to 900yds. When I want to try shooting 1000, a close friend has private property with a range that reaches almost 1500. Also, to the comments on the primer pockets opening up: I have known for a while now that this was a problem with Federal brass. I am paying very close attention to how much pressure I should feel while seating and removing the primers from this brass. My plan has always been that when things feel a little "loose", that brass goes in the recycle bin. One more load is not worth it to me to have primers falling out of the brass or damage to my gun |
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I would try 43.6 with seating depth adjusted 5 thou longer. Thanks, I'll load those up in the A.M. Loaded some up at 43.5 and same COAL today for testing this weekend, along with 5 of each ranging from 43.7 up to 44.3 to test for accuracy and pressure signs. Going to shoot them @ 300yds to get a better idea of them. Edited for spelling. |
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Quoted: Finally got to start working a load up for my Rem 700 SPS Tactical. IMR 4064 was readily available locally, and I want to try and get this 20" 1:12 twist barrel to shoot well out to 1000 yds, so I'm starting with the 175gr SMK, once fired FGMM brass and Winchester WLR primers. Details on the load: Cases trimmed to 2.005" COAL @ 2.815 Chamber measured @ 2.932" to the lands ETA: Shooting done at 100 yds. Once I get it more narrowed down I will go to 300 yds. Started shooting FGMM 175gr SMKs to foul the bore and to have a benchmark. Three shots of FGMM, then began round robin shooting of the loads I put together. No cases showed pressure signs, as they shouldn't, considering the listed max load of 4064 according to Hodgdon is 45 gr. My ultimate goal is an accurate OCW load because I will be shooting in temperatures ranging from below zero up into the 90s in the summer. I will check the load I end up settling on at those temps, obviously, and make adjustments if necessary, I just want something that will work well for the bulk of the temps I see. Here are the groups: http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj519/crmiller84/Mobile%20Uploads/20150404_163728.jpg I'm thinking there is a node between 43.4 and 43.7, and also between 42.5 and 42.8. My thought, although it may be flawed, is that what happened at 43.1 may likely happen if I jump to 44. I don't have a chrono right now, so no way of knowing if I'm getting the velocity that I need for 1000 yds. Where would all you seasoned reloaders go from here? I know I need to test out the increments between 43.4 and 43.7, but should I go ahead and go higher? Play with COAL? I do want to stay within magazine length also, preferably. Thanks in advance. |
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If you have easy access to long range as you describe, then there is not much lost in just picking one of the loads you tested and seeing how far it will go. There is no shame in shooting at a really big piece of cardboard if you are worried about staying on the paper. By playing with the numbers going in to your ballistic calculator until it matches your measured drop data, you can get a pretty good feel for velocity without a chrono. The chronograph is also unnecessary when you test at long range because you will directly see the results of poor extreme spread.
Maybe the load you pick will be good enough to give you good practice at 600 yards until you have saved up enough for better brass. I would guess the 700AAC has the tighter twist to compensate for the shorter barrel. It may still not be tight enough for good performance with subsonic loads though. It is really impossible to build a rifle that is perfect for everything. I am interested in your findings because I also have a 20" 700 with 1:12. |
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Exactly. Why Remington did this I have no clue. 1:10 seems to be the better twist for a barrel this short. Quoted:
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One is the SPS tactical, the other is the SPS Tactical-AAC Exactly. Why Remington did this I have no clue. 1:10 seems to be the better twist for a barrel this short. The 700 LTR's have historically performed well. They too have a 1:12 with a 20" barrel, so there was precedence. The thought may have been for a handy rifle that could engage targets at mid range, where 168's and possibly 175's would still be effective. Just my WAG though. The AAC was obviously designed around suppressors and subsonic loads, where a fast twist would be advantageous for lobbing 200+ grain projectiles. OP, how'd the range trip go? |
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Range trip went "well". I ended up with 50 hand loads (5 each in .1 gr increments) from 43.4 to 44.3. Had a 90°crosswind from left to right and made a rookie mistake dialing my scope and trying to hit bullseye instead of letting the rounds drift slightly. Ended up dialing the wrong direction, and every one of my first rounds went onto the adjacent target. Oh well, I dialed back to zero and just used 4 shot groups instead of 5.
Groups were shot at 300 yds. Pics will be up tomorrow, but my results ended up being: everything from 43.4 up to 43.9 was sub-MOA, with 43.6 being the best at near 1/2-MOA. The rifle hated 44 gr even, with a group of 5+ inches, most of that vertical dispersion. I admit it could have been me a little, but it was the most wild group of the 10 I shot, and 44.1gr was the best at 1.4"  . 44.2 was right back to crazy, with a 4" group, which tells me that 44.1 was either a fluke or a REALLY specific node. Gonna try the MOA challenge with 44.1gr and see if it is consistent, and if it is I'll reserve it for my really long range sessions, and load up 43.6 as an OCW load.
Does this sound like the way to go? Like I said before, a lot of you guys have a lot more experience than I do, and I value your opinions. 
Oh, and no pressure signs through all ten loadings, even with my brass averaging around 172 gr each, so that is a good sign. Still need to chrono these, but at least I feel like I'm getting close. Edit for autocorrect 
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If 44.0 and 44.2 were wild, but 44.1 was good, I'd rule it as a possible fluke. In the event that it wasn't a fluke, that is a very tight node that probably isn't worth utilizing. A half grain of powder isn't going to give you a huge benefit (velocity) over a slightly slower, accurate and tolerable load, but it is enough to take you out of a promising node.
Glad to hear 43.6 did well. |
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I would try 41.5 and 42.0 grains of IMR-4064. 42.0 to 42.5 is a known accuracy load for 168 grain Sierra Match Kings, a slightly lower charge for 175's may yield great results.
1.0 grain powder charge yields approximately 60 fps change in .308 when loading 168/175 grain bullets. .1 grain increments is a waste of time. .5 grain increments will net 30 fps average difference which is plenty for load development. Federal brass is known for giving up the ghost by expanding primer pockets after only one or two reloads. You can delay this process by finding accurate loads at lower powder charges. 44.0+ grains of IMR-4064 or Varget is hard on brass. Any brass. I never exceed 2600 fps with 168's or 175's from 24" barrels, 2500 fps from 20" barrels. You don't need to and it's harder on the rifle and the brass. Excellent accuracy can be found between 2550 fps and 2600 fps with these bullets from 24" barrels. |
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I'd play around with the COAL at 43.5 and 43.6 to try and reduce the vertical/horizontal that they exhibited. Is this in the factory stock? If so, it's doing very well. Good luck. Thanks. No this is in a B&C A2 stock. I only put 15 rounds through the factory stock before I wanted to cut the damn thing in half. |