Posted: 7/17/2012 5:49:06 AM EDT
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I am not sure even if this is in the right forum. But with optics getting better and better by the minute..this just got me thinking..
Ive taken a couple of classes and now participating in a couple of local 3 gun matches. On classes - Aimpoint/Eotech combinations are on top of most rifles. But - 3 gun..people prefer going the scope route. I guess this question is meant for the people who compete on a regular basis: For the rifles that are NOT your dedicated competition gun that are sitting in your safe...do you prefer a red dot optic or a variable scope? Do you find yourselves using or prefering a variable scope more than a red dot optic since your probably practice on a regular basis with your competition rifle? |
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http://www.horusvision.com/blackbird2.php Good for all rifle shooting! Quoted: I am not sure even if this is in the right forum. But with optics getting better and better by the minute..this just got me thinking.. Ive taken a couple of classes and now participating in a couple of local 3 gun matches. On classes - Aimpoint/Eotech combinations are on top of most rifles. But - 3 gun..people prefer going the scope route. I guess this question is meant for the people who compete on a regular basis: For the rifles that are NOT your dedicated competition gun that are sitting in your safe...do you prefer a red dot optic or a variable scope? Do you find yourselves using or prefering a variable scope more than a red dot optic since your probably practice on a regular basis with your competition rifle? |
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something you might consider... I do not hunt, so my rifles are basically competition rifles... if you go with something like a fixed power ACOG with fiberoptic lit reticle....the bright chevron or triangle in my case, are "kinda like" a dot...for up close fast shooting the Bindon Aiming Concept allow both eye open use....it takes a little time till you trust that the shot is "good enough"
I have a pretty bad astigmatism, and dots and holographic sights do not give me a good sight picture... the bullet drop compensation stadia lines that subtend 19" at indicated distance are a real help for a match like Ft Benning with targets at varying distance out to 400+ meters....especially with wind hold off my ACOGs are typically 1 3/4" above bore, and for targets close enough that this offset is a concern that I need to shoot top of head to not drop a shot into the neck...multiple targets give me trouble... my first target is ok, target #2 my brain starts to drop the point of aim into the middle of the head, and target #3 the shot goes below the neck into the no shoot or hard cover... having a horizontal line I can hold on the neck is a crutch that I like to use... I don't shoot long range targets but once a year... the go fast guys that shoot more matches than I, will recommend a variable.... |
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Quoted:
Use your red dot in Tac-Limited. Under 200 yards I generally find a red dot to be more versatile than anything with magnification. If you do get something with magnification long eye relief helps with being able to use it for less than ideal positions. You must be shooting at large targets down there. I find that magnificaiton helps starting at 50 yards and out depending on the target. Pat |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Use your red dot in Tac-Limited. Under 200 yards I generally find a red dot to be more versatile than anything with magnification. If you do get something with magnification long eye relief helps with being able to use it for less than ideal positions. You must be shooting at large targets down there. I find that magnificaiton helps starting at 50 yards and out depending on the target. Pat Targets are 3-4MOA at range on the small end. We shoot at R&Rs, MGMs, and LaRues. One club uses Mini-IPSC steel at 100-150 yards. Magnification helps if the targets are not well contrasted in finding them, but most of the time they're doing a better job of making it so people can actually see/locate the targets without magnification now. If there are wide arcs between targets I find magnification to actually be slower. Of course a lot of this is relative to the individual's eye sight. |
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I now have a Bushnell 1-6.5x24 SMRS with first focal plane BTR-2 reticle. I find that at 1x with the illumniation turned on, the scope works alot like my Aimpoint and is close to a true 1x as I can tell.....but I can also zoom in on targets and tag distant targets much easier using the mil subtentions built into the BTR-2 reticle. Its a bit pricey, but I intend to use this scope for coyotes, deer, and possibly prairie dogs as well.
I think the versatility of a 1-4x or 1-6x just trumps the quick shooting ability of an Aimpoint or EoTech for most shooters...especially as some of them age and their eye sight starts to deteriorate. At our semi-local outlaw matches, the distances go out to 400 yards, and most guys shooting red dots and iron sights never hit it. I have an astigmatism in my right eye (dominant/shooting eye) and have been able to use the Bushnell, my Aimpoint T1, and my Aimpoint M4s just fine.....the trick is to sight in and use your astigmatism if the reticle is affected. My Bushnell's reticle does not appear to be affected by my astigmatism for some reason, but my Aimpoint's 2 MOA dots tend to have a sharp peak at the tops of the dots.....I sight in with the peak as my POA and have accurately hit 12"x12" steel plates relatively fast at 400 yards on my private range. |
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Quoted:
I now have a Bushnell 1-6.5x24 SMRS with first focal plane BTR-2 reticle. I find that at 1x with the illumniation turned on, the scope works alot like my Aimpoint and is close to a true 1x as I can tell.....but I can also zoom in on targets and tag distant targets much easier using the mil subtentions built into the BTR-2 reticle. Its a bit pricey, but I intend to use this scope for coyotes, deer, and possibly prairie dogs as well. thanks for the tip about that new optic |
| Thanks all. I have a Aimpoint Comp ML2 with a 3x magnifier on mine now...I was just curious since I see a lot of people here practice quite regularly and I would think since they are used to a scope instead of a red dot..they might carry that over to everything they have.. |
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If I had to carry a rifle for life or death situations and it had a reticle or dot that went away with a bad battery or other electrical malfunction I'd run a set if Dueck Defense offset irons so I could seem least transition to a set of irons.
The Dueck Defense sights I have on my gun are super fast and rugged as hell. I wouldn't want anything that requires me to flip them up. I definitely wouldn't want them to be plastic either. |
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Quoted:
If I had to carry a rifle for life or death situations and it had a reticle or dot that went away with a bad battery or other electrical malfunction I'd run a set if Dueck Defense offset irons so I could seem least transition to a set of irons. The Dueck Defense sights I have on my gun are super fast and rugged as hell. I wouldn't want anything that requires me to flip them up. I definitely wouldn't want them to be plastic either. The Dueck Defense sights limit your ability to shoot off the opposite shoulder. Ambidextrous gun handling is a skill set emphasized by modern combative small arms trainers for a multitude of reasons. Conversely it is seen very little in 3 gun, unless you're left handed and stage design forces you to do it on a regular basis. When there is a stage that requires support side shooting most people complain about it (the last one I encountered was at Ironman this year). Drop testing of Magpul sights here (and aimpoint and EOTech): http://vuurwapenblog.com/2012/07/08/buisoptic-drop-test/ I don't use MBUS sights myself, but the testing shows plastic flexes and can retain functionality. I tend to agree with Kyle Defoor's thoughts in this article: http://www.kyledefoor.com/2010/12/iron-sights-for-almost-year.html Final thoughts;
Have irons that are zeroed. Never p/u a gun without back up sights. Practice irons once a year and compare your times and accuracy to your red dot ones. A red dot will get you out of alot of low light situations that irons won't. Have a quick detach for your red dot. Have your red dot mounted 1/4", so that irons are in the bottom third of the lens. If you run flip up irons, make sure you can flip and that they will! A modern, fighting carbine must have; a sling, a light, and a red dot. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
If I had to carry a rifle for life or death situations and it had a reticle or dot that went away with a bad battery or other electrical malfunction I'd run a set if Dueck Defense offset irons so I could seem least transition to a set of irons. The Dueck Defense sights I have on my gun are super fast and rugged as hell. I wouldn't want anything that requires me to flip them up. I definitely wouldn't want them to be plastic either. The Dueck Defense sights limit your ability to shoot off the opposite shoulder. Ambidextrous gun handling is a skill set emphasized by modern combative small arms trainers for a multitude of reasons. Conversely it is seen very little in 3 gun, unless you're left handed and stage design forces you to do it on a regular basis. When there is a stage that requires support side shooting most people complain about it (the last one I encountered was at Ironman this year). Drop testing of Magpul sights here (and aimpoint and EOTech): http://vuurwapenblog.com/2012/07/08/buisoptic-drop-test/ I don't use MBUS sights myself, but the testing shows plastic flexes and can retain functionality. I tend to agree with Kyle Defoor's thoughts in this article: http://www.kyledefoor.com/2010/12/iron-sights-for-almost-year.html Final thoughts;
Have irons that are zeroed. Never p/u a gun without back up sights. Practice irons once a year and compare your times and accuracy to your red dot ones. A red dot will get you out of alot of low light situations that irons won't. Have a quick detach for your red dot. Have your red dot mounted 1/4", so that irons are in the bottom third of the lens. If you run flip up irons, make sure you can flip and that they will! A modern, fighting carbine must have; a sling, a light, and a red dot. I am not sure I understand why the Dueck defense sights would limit weak side shooting unless you're referring to weak side Shooting with the offsets. That would be difficult. I would add that if I had to shoot weak side and had to transition to flipping up my backups I would be in a SHTF situation and I'd likely be retreating while spraying bullets from the hip at that point. However this being a competition forum I don't think we will ever have the need for BUIS weak side Shooting so I'll stick with my Dueck Defense sights for matches. |
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There are arguments for both. One argument for off set irons is in the cold optics fog when going from inside to outside and from outside to inside making them useless fast. Off set irons deal with this much better than conventional flip sights were you would have to remove your optic to see your sights. For a SHTF rifle I don't want a rifle with just a red dot I want a low power variable.
Pat |