Posted: 7/8/2010 7:05:30 AM EDT
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has technology overpriced itself?
i rarely shoot over 100 yards on whitetails. 200 on other stuff. due to this i really only shoot "old school" bullets. normally they are also the cheapest in the ammo shelves. the reality is that for 30 years that ammo type has never let me down. virtually every bullet has performed exactly as it was designed. from .22 rimfire to 7mm mag. it has consistantly worked rocked solid. i realize that the shooter has a large portion of this phenomena, but the fact remains that the ammo functioned perfectly. Today we have new age ammo at a premium price. is there anyone here who hunts solely with the cheaper ammo? |
| Nothing wrong with that, deer aren't hard to kill and so many people think they need a magical bullet or magnum to gun down a deer. I usually get 100 damage stamps on my property alone and have several other bean fields I kill deer on for other people so I kill a lot of deer. If the deer are within 500 yards they usually get a 150gr Core Lokt from a 308 or a 100gr Core Lokt from a 243, and they go down every time. I used to buy factory loads and bought them because they're the cheapest and now I buy the remington bullet's and bulk because they are still pretty cheap and they work great. Passed 500 yards or if it's really windy I go to a match type bullet (I know I know, match bullet's can't kill deer, just like 243's can't) and use Amax's in 243, 7mm, and 308, and Lapua Scenar's in 308. These bullet's also work great on deer, I tried the SMK's and while they worked they were very inconsistant in how they performed, one bullet would explode in vitals and liquify them and the next would just poke a hole a little hole strait through but the deer still usually went down right there. |
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i think the ammo companies know full well about the buying characteristics of cave men. bigger, better and have now outpaced their quarry in kill factor it is now an advertising heaven and profit, profit, profit.
we have a large farm too with alot of DMAP permits as well as depredation permits when needed. my family has used everything short of a Tinker Airforce Base airstrike. miraculously, all deer have died very quickly without the need of a $40 box of ammo. |
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Here's my take
For the guy shooting bambi with a thuty-thuty, 308 or 7mm mag inside 200yds ammo and most importantly bullet developments of the past 10yrs bring nothing new to the table. But for the guy wanting to use a .223 or some other cartridge that was at one time "marginal" it's like a veil has been lifted. For applications such as this modern bullets have transformed these cartridges into absolute deer slayers. In fact I'd go so far as to say a fellow shooting a .223 with a Barnes or other modern medium game bullet is better armed for deer inside 200 than someone shooting 30-30 or 243 who buys whatever "shells" are on sale at the box store. I think what happened is manufacturers finally figured out it's not the MV or Energy that puts game down it's the bullet stupid |
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Here's my take For the guy shooting bambi with a thuty-thuty, 308 or 7mm mag inside 200yds ammo and most importantly bullet developments of the past 10yrs bring nothing new to the table. But for the guy wanting to use a .223 or some other cartridge that was at one time "marginal" it's like a veil has been lifted. For applications such as this modern bullets have transformed these cartridges into absolute deer slayers. In fact I'd go so far as to say a fellow shooting a .223 with a Barnes or other modern medium game bullet is better armed for deer inside 200 than someone shooting 30-30 or 243 who buys whatever "shells" are on sale at the box store. I think what happened is manufacturers finally figured out it's not the MV or Energy that puts game down it's the bullet stupid I agree with this whole-heartedly. When using a .223 cal for deer/hog size game, a premium bullet is the better choice. But what do I know? 
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In my opinion for standard non magnum caliber weapons the standard cup and core ammo is fine for deer and other medium sized game. The only time I would use bonded or copper bullets is when hunting larger heavier boned game such as Elk, Moose, and large bear. If I were hunting with a magnum caliber rifle at say closer ranges I would want the bonded or other premium bullets to withstand the velocity that they produce. I recently spoke with a Ballistican from Swift bullets and he basically said the same thing.
With a small caliber such as .223 I would certainly want a bonded bullet to hold up and penetrate a deer. |
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I typically hunt with an AR in 6.8 SPC or 5.56mm. I use Federal Fusion or Winchester PowerPoint in the 5.56mm and Barnes TSX in the 6.8. Occasionally I will use a bolt action .308 that I will feed Winchester PowerPoint or Privi Partizan soft point. To the dismay of my friends and neighbors, I have never had an issue dropping a deer with a clean, human kill with the .223. This would not be the case if I used a JHP or FMJ, it all comes down to using the proper projectile. |
All of you guys are spot on  !
The is the first bullet/hunting thread I have read in a long time where the question was sincere/good and the answers are topic appropriate/correct. Up close, bonded bullet. Smaller caliber, heaviest TSX your rifle will stabilize. Trophy hunt; NAB, TSX, NP, Scirocco Shot placement PARAMOUNT P |
| Any normal hunting day for me is the old standby Remington Core-Lokt. I figure that round has killed alot of game over the 60 years or so the bullet has been with us and that is good enough for me. In my state typical shots for deer are less than 100 yards and the core-lokt has never failed me. I was lucky this year and got drawn for a moose permit. For that hunt I will buy a box of premium bullets, but I'm sure the standard Remington would do just fine. |
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Congrats on the moose permit. What caliber are you going with? Unless you're shooting something light with very high velocity that might have a problem with dense bone, I wouldn't worry too much about premium bullets for them. I've got a few Maine moose and a couple larger Alaskans. Never had a problem with basic factory ammo in anything including the old .32 Winchester special. My favorite is my Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70 with 350gr flathead handloads moving at around 1900fps.
Depending on which dates you have, my best advice is to bring numerous good quality knives (and a solid hatchet or two). My last one ended up being on an 80 degree morning on the Golden Road. In that kinda heat, you need to hack it into chunks pretty quick and get it in tons of ice as soon as possible. No time for dull knives or finesse Good luck!. |
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Here's my take For the guy shooting bambi with a thuty-thuty, 308 or 7mm mag inside 200yds ammo and most importantly bullet developments of the past 10yrs bring nothing new to the table. But for the guy wanting to use a .223 or some other cartridge that was at one time "marginal" it's like a veil has been lifted. For applications such as this modern bullets have transformed these cartridges into absolute deer slayers. In fact I'd go so far as to say a fellow shooting a .223 with a Barnes or other modern medium game bullet is better armed for deer inside 200 than someone shooting 30-30 or 243 who buys whatever "shells" are on sale at the box store. I think what happened is manufacturers finally figured out it's not the MV or Energy that puts game down it's the bullet stupid Um...you took the words right out of my mouth. |
| I wouldn't say it's the bullet that kill's, it certainly has alot to do with it but so does velocity and energy. When your talking about a .224 round that really has no ass to it bullet design is going to play a bigger roll in it's lethality than compared to a larger caliber. When you get into 243 and bigger a Core Lokt is will knock a deer as dead as you can make it, the magic bullet's bullet's aren't going to give you any sort of advantage. I've actually seen the Barne$ perform very poorly from many caliber's from them not expanding at all to just barely opening the tip up, never seen one fragment though. 110gr Vmax's from both 270's and 30's are one of my favorite bullet's to use on deer for vital shots, whether it hits the rib cage or not it goes in and turns the heart and lungs to mush and they won't take another step, also no exit as long as it isn't from a big magnum so minimal meat damage. You wouldn't want to take a shot through any sort of muscle with varmint bullets though, there's a good chance you would just wound it real bad, I haven't hit one in the shoulder to find out though. |
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I wouldn't say it's the bullet that kill's, it certainly has alot to do with it but so does velocity and energy. When your talking about a .224 round that really has no ass to it bullet design is going to play a bigger roll in it's lethality than compared to a larger caliber. When you get into 243 and bigger a Core Lokt is will knock a deer as dead as you can make it, the magic bullet's bullet's aren't going to give you any sort of advantage. I've actually seen the Barne$ perform very poorly from many caliber's from them not expanding at all to just barely opening the tip up, never seen one fragment though. 110gr Vmax's from both 270's and 30's are one of my favorite bullet's to use on deer for vital shots, whether it hits the rib cage or not it goes in and turns the heart and lungs to mush and they won't take another step, also no exit as long as it isn't from a big magnum so minimal meat damage. You wouldn't want to take a shot through any sort of muscle with varmint bullets though, there's a good chance you would just wound it real bad, I haven't hit one in the shoulder to find out though. You haven't done your homework...the bullet kills. It uses velocity to create energy which in turn causes the bullet to "work". Which calibers have you seen Barne's bullets perform poorly and which bullets? I ask because it is very rare to have a premium bullet fail under normal working scenarios. P |
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I agree...depends on the cartridge to a degree. But, I believe that the non-premium bullets work quite well. I've taken ALL of my game with the standard Remington Cor-Lokt. ALL were one shot kills. I've taken hogs and exotics, not a whitetail yet. But, an axis deer or fallow deer could be used interchangeably with a whitetail in this instance.
There is nothing wrong with standard bullets. Heck, they have been taking game for as long as the .30-30. Every industry has it's..."okay sales are slowing, we need to come up with a new widget." The new widget usually works, and works well, but probably not necessary. |
| Thanks for the tips!! Those are the type of arrangements I've been making in preparation for the hunt. The tag is for the middle of October. Hopefully it is a nice cold week. For a rifle I will have a scoped 30-06, a scoped .308, and a non scoped .308 as backup and for swamp work. |
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Quoted: In my opinion it is the close range (100 yards or less) where the bonded core / copper monolithic really earn their keep, especially if impact velocity is greater than 2700 fps. High impact velocity is what causes cup and core bullets to come apart. Yeah, but I don't care if they come apart and "fail" inside of a deer's ribs or the side of a hog's head. Having said that, every animal I've killed with my .270 in the last ten years has been with a Winchester Fail Safe bullet. I bought a case of them a long time ago.  Several years back I shot a doe that was facing me head on. She was 90 or so yards away. I hit her in the middle of the brisket. The bullet exhibited complete longitudinal penetration and exited. That was about 4 feet through flesh in a straight line. When I opened her up the individual organs in her chest were not discernible...It looked like someone had removed her organs and replaced them with 25 gallons of diarrhea. It's a really good elk and bear bullet, too. I think I paid about a buck a round for them. |
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Quoted: Quoted: In my opinion it is the close range (100 yards or less) where the bonded core / copper monolithic really earn their keep, especially if impact velocity is greater than 2700 fps. High impact velocity is what causes cup and core bullets to come apart. Yeah, but I don't care if they come apart and "fail" inside of a deer's ribs or the side of a hog's head. Most bullets work most of the time. No bullets work all of the time, but some certainly work more times than others. I was hunting with several arfcomers on a large ranch in south Texas. Just a few minutes before last legal light one arfcomer shot a nice big buck at 100 yards with a Nosler BT from his 7mm Rem Mag. The buck collapsed on the spot and stayed down for several minutes. The arfcomer and his young son took their eyes off the deer while they picked up their belongings from the blind. When they walked to where the deer was laying they discovered a large puddle of blood and deer tracks with a good blood trail leading down a sendero, but no big buck. The blood trail went into the thorn bush about 50 yards from where it was shot, but it was getting pretty dark, so our arfcomer came back to the ranch house to us know what happened and to get some help tracking the deer. We calmed him down and convinced him to eat some supper and give the buck a chance to calm down, lay up, and bleed out. About two hours after the shot the arfcomer and I with both of our sons crawled through 400 yards of thorn bush on our hands and knees following the very easy to see blood trail. In some places it looked like the blood had been poured out of a cup. The trail eventually lead out of the thorn brush and into an open field of waist tall grass. About 200 yards into the grass, the blood trail dribbled off to nothing and we lost the tracks. We never found that buck. It was as if he rubbed some dirt on the boo-boo and walked it off. Even free hunting is expensive. Why risk losing a trophy (and hours of useless "what if" mind games) by trying to save a dollar (or less if you load your own) on a bullet? Do the premiums guarantee better results? No, but they offer more consistent results. |
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Over the last 7 years I've seen him shoot enough to believe he placed the bullet where he wanted to. If he would have hit a leg, I'm pretty sure there would have been a noticeable dragging hoof or 3 legged track in the soft almost talcum powder dirt on the sendero. The tracks were normal and it appeared the deer was walking or at most trotting. |
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Until you recover several bullets from a dead deer carcass, you might not think twice about what you shoot a deer with.
I don't care if it's a cheap or expensive bullet. Just so long as it expands and holds together when it hits a deer. I get stuck in a rut sometimes and stay with the same bullet and load in the same rifle. If it shoots good and has dropped deer or elk for me, then it's good to go and I don't see much reason to change. |
| I spend over a $1000 a year to be a member of a hunting club. I drive 2 hours each way to the club every single weekend from mid september until december so I spend a ton on gas and vehicle wear and tear. I've spent thousands of dollars of guns, scopes, reloading gear, camo, stands, blinds, boots, knives, and gear of all sorts for deer hunting. So it costs me a few thousand dollars a year to deer hunt. Even the best quality bullets cost less then a dollar a piece. I see no reason not to use the best bullets you can when all you stand to save is just a few cents per shot by using the cheap stuff. Yeah the cheap stuff works great most of the time, and fancy bullets won't make you a better hunter, but why not use the best when you really don't save anything using the old school bullets? |
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.......Yeah the cheap stuff works great most of the time, and fancy bullets won't make you a better hunter, but why not use the best when you really don't save anything using the old school bullets? There is a difference between cheap bullets and expensive bullets. Sometimes the difference is performance as well as cost. And sometimes it isn't. I'm not going to pay a dollar for a bullet to reload when one that costs thirty five cents will do just as good in taking a deer or elk. My best deer hunting load is a 30/06 with 165 Hornady Interlock over 55.5 gr of IMR 4350 ignited with a Federal 215 primer. I've got several hundred more of those bullets from a batch I bought over 10 years ago. I've recovered one that went from one shoulder of a doe to the opposite rear leg. It weighed around 130 grains with 3/4" expansion. 
Why would I want to change my hunting load? |
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has technology overpriced itself? i rarely shoot over 100 yards on whitetails. 200 on other stuff. due to this i really only shoot "old school" bullets. normally they are also the cheapest in the ammo shelves. the reality is that for 30 years that ammo type has never let me down. virtually every bullet has performed exactly as it was designed. from .22 rimfire to 7mm mag. it has consistantly worked rocked solid. i realize that the shooter has a large portion of this phenomena, but the fact remains that the ammo functioned perfectly. Today we have new age ammo at a premium price. is there anyone here who hunts solely with the cheaper ammo? Until I pay for a guided hunt, I won't use premium bullets. Core-Lokt does all I need. It did for dad, and his dad too. I'm a total FUDD when it comes to bullet selection for medium sized game. Core Lokt, Super X and Power Shock all do the job. If I use a small caliber rifle like 5.56, I'll step up for quality. |
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In my opinion it is the close range (100 yards or less) where the bonded core / copper monolithic really earn their keep, especially if impact velocity is greater than 2700 fps. High impact velocity is what causes cup and core bullets to come apart. Yeah, but I don't care if they come apart and "fail" inside of a deer's ribs or the side of a hog's head. Most bullets work most of the time. No bullets work all of the time, but some certainly work more times than others. I was hunting with several arfcomers on a large ranch in south Texas. Just a few minutes before last legal light one arfcomer shot a nice big buck at 100 yards with a Nosler BT from his 7mm Rem Mag. The buck collapsed on the spot and stayed down for several minutes. The arfcomer and his young son took their eyes off the deer while they picked up their belongings from the blind. When they walked to where the deer was laying they discovered a large puddle of blood and deer tracks with a good blood trail leading down a sendero, but no big buck. The blood trail went into the thorn bush about 50 yards from where it was shot, but it was getting pretty dark, so our arfcomer came back to the ranch house to us know what happened and to get some help tracking the deer. We calmed him down and convinced him to eat some supper and give the buck a chance to calm down, lay up, and bleed out. About two hours after the shot the arfcomer and I with both of our sons crawled through 400 yards of thorn bush on our hands and knees following the very easy to see blood trail. In some places it looked like the blood had been poured out of a cup. The trail eventually lead out of the thorn brush and into an open field of waist tall grass. About 200 yards into the grass, the blood trail dribbled off to nothing and we lost the tracks. We never found that buck. It was as if he rubbed some dirt on the boo-boo and walked it off. Even free hunting is expensive. Why risk losing a trophy (and hours of useless "what if" mind games) by trying to save a dollar (or less if you load your own) on a bullet? Do the premiums guarantee better results? No, but they offer more consistent results. While I agree with you to some extent, I would say this situation probably had a lot more to do with poor shot placement over bullet construction. I won't say it's not possible that the bullet failed, but honestly, I've never seen a "regular" bullet fail to put a deer down, if it's put into the vitals. I've shot a bunch of deer, and have seen a bunch shot. Bullet construction was never an issue, as long as it was a proper weight. Using an improper bullet weight, such as a 110 grain bullet in a 30-06, or something like that, would, of course, tend to invalidate this claim. |
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In my opinion it is the close range (100 yards or less) where the bonded core / copper monolithic really earn their keep, especially if impact velocity is greater than 2700 fps. High impact velocity is what causes cup and core bullets to come apart. Yeah, but I don't care if they come apart and "fail" inside of a deer's ribs or the side of a hog's head. Most bullets work most of the time. No bullets work all of the time, but some certainly work more times than others. I was hunting with several arfcomers on a large ranch in south Texas. Just a few minutes before last legal light one arfcomer shot a nice big buck at 100 yards with a Nosler BT from his 7mm Rem Mag. The buck collapsed on the spot and stayed down for several minutes. The arfcomer and his young son took their eyes off the deer while they picked up their belongings from the blind. When they walked to where the deer was laying they discovered a large puddle of blood and deer tracks with a good blood trail leading down a sendero, but no big buck. The blood trail went into the thorn bush about 50 yards from where it was shot, but it was getting pretty dark, so our arfcomer came back to the ranch house to us know what happened and to get some help tracking the deer. We calmed him down and convinced him to eat some supper and give the buck a chance to calm down, lay up, and bleed out. About two hours after the shot the arfcomer and I with both of our sons crawled through 400 yards of thorn bush on our hands and knees following the very easy to see blood trail. In some places it looked like the blood had been poured out of a cup. The trail eventually lead out of the thorn brush and into an open field of waist tall grass. About 200 yards into the grass, the blood trail dribbled off to nothing and we lost the tracks. We never found that buck. It was as if he rubbed some dirt on the boo-boo and walked it off. Even free hunting is expensive. Why risk losing a trophy (and hours of useless "what if" mind games) by trying to save a dollar (or less if you load your own) on a bullet? Do the premiums guarantee better results? No, but they offer more consistent results. While I agree with you to some extent, I would say this situation probably had a lot more to do with poor shot placement over bullet construction. I won't say it's not possible that the bullet failed, but honestly, I've never seen a "regular" bullet fail to put a deer down, if it's put into the vitals. I've shot a bunch of deer, and have seen a bunch shot. Bullet construction was never an issue, as long as it was a proper weight. Using an improper bullet weight, such as a 110 grain bullet in a 30-06, or something like that, would, of course, tend to invalidate this claim. I've seen this arfcommer shoot this rifle/bullet combination several times over the last 6 years. He shoots a consistent 1.5 MOA with it. On this occasion he was sitting in a fiberglass two person blind, essentially a benchrest. I am confident that bullet hit the shoulder and fragmented before it reached the vitals. He has shot at least a dozen if not more deer with the same bullets (160gr IIRC), and this is the only one he didn't recover. I'd rather spend an extra 50 cents than crawl through thorns for a quarter of a mile on my hands and knees again. |
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I spend over a $1000 a year to be a member of a hunting club. I drive 2 hours each way to the club every single weekend from mid september until december so I spend a ton on gas and vehicle wear and tear. I've spent thousands of dollars of guns, scopes, reloading gear, camo, stands, blinds, boots, knives, and gear of all sorts for deer hunting. So it costs me a few thousand dollars a year to deer hunt. Even the best quality bullets cost less then a dollar a piece. I see no reason not to use the best bullets you can when all you stand to save is just a few cents per shot by using the cheap stuff. Yeah the cheap stuff works great most of the time, and fancy bullets won't make you a better hunter, but why not use the best when you really don't save anything using the old school bullets? This is an argument you can make about anything. Why not change the oil in your car every 1000 miles instead of 3000? It only costs a bit more, and it's cheap insurance, right? Premium, controlled expansion bullets are not necessary for animals like deer. Conventional bullets of the proper weight will kill deer every single time, if you put the bullet where it needs to go. Everybody has a story about the on that got away because of the bullet failing. I don't. After all the animals I have shot, and have seen get shot, I have never, not one single time, had a bullet fail to kill quickly when it was placed properly. I have also never used anything except conventional bullets such as Power-Shok, Core-Lokt, and Power Points. Now, if I go Elk or Moose hunting one day, I'll load the ol' 30'06 up with some A-Frames or Partitions, but until then, I'll stick with my "cheap" ammo. It has always worked for me. |
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I spend over a $1000 a year to be a member of a hunting club. I drive 2 hours each way to the club every single weekend from mid september until december so I spend a ton on gas and vehicle wear and tear. I've spent thousands of dollars of guns, scopes, reloading gear, camo, stands, blinds, boots, knives, and gear of all sorts for deer hunting. So it costs me a few thousand dollars a year to deer hunt. Even the best quality bullets cost less then a dollar a piece. I see no reason not to use the best bullets you can when all you stand to save is just a few cents per shot by using the cheap stuff. Yeah the cheap stuff works great most of the time, and fancy bullets won't make you a better hunter, but why not use the best when you really don't save anything using the old school bullets? This is an argument you can make about anything. Why not change the oil in your car every 1000 miles instead of 3000? It only costs a bit more, and it's cheap insurance, right? Premium, controlled expansion bullets are not necessary for animals like deer. Conventional bullets of the proper weight will kill deer every single time, if you put the bullet where it needs to go. Everybody has a story about the on that got away because of the bullet failing. I don't. After all the animals I have shot, and have seen get shot, I have never, not one single time, had a bullet fail to kill quickly when it was placed properly. I have also never used anything except conventional bullets such as Power-Shok, Core-Lokt, and Power Points. Now, if I go Elk or Moose hunting one day, I'll load the ol' 30'06 up with some A-Frames or Partitions, but until then, I'll stick with my "cheap" ammo. It has always worked for me. I agree with Vulthoom. I hunt south eastern white tailed deer that are fairly small compared to mid-western and northern deer. I use a .30-06, .300 Savage, 30-30, .44 Magnum or .41 magnum to shoot them. In those calibers a standard Powerpoint or Corelokt cup and core type bullet works just fine. They hold together well enough and punch holes all the way through the deer. A premium bullet of tougher construction that would penetrate deeper and expand less would create a smaller wound channel through the deer. Or in other words, on the deer I shoot, with the calibers I use I think a premium bullet will not work as well as the cheap ones. Now if VA changes their laws and allows me to use my .223 to deer hunt or if I ever get a chance to go hunt moose or elk then I'll start looking at the premium bullets. Until then I'll keep putting the deer down with the cheap bullets. |