Posted: 12/4/2009 4:29:49 AM EDT
| Would others on this section also want a dedicated Quality Deer Management (QDM) section created? I know I would, if so how would we make it happen? |
I could see some bickering as there are many forms/theories/systems on QDM (# of points, width, class size, points+width, body aging, etc) as well as it doesn't work  . I just thought it would be nice for people that actually try to maitain a better heard by letting the little ones walk and kill does to be able to share ideas, etc.
QDM isn't for everyone, but I just hate when I hear people complain about not seeing big bucks, but they blast every young buck they see. Horn soup sucks!! I think a QDM forum could educate a lot of hunters. |
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I talked about thinning out the poor antlered bucks with bad genetics and several here thought I was wrong in taking out the screwed up bucks, that they would get bigger antlers as they got older. I guess it was bickering to some extent.
Here's a picture of a buck with one antler stub. He is a 110-130 lb buck judging from the size relationship to the feeder. 
He's still there. I didn't get him but I passed up a lot of antlerless deer just to save one bullet for him. I don't know of any other way of improving the genetics of the deer herd around my place than taking out the culls like this one. Trophy bucks are getting harder and harder to get because of so many trophy hunters. A QDM forum would be a great idea but discussing it here will probably cause a lot of arguments. |
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Quoted: crossbow/compound/recurve/traditionalQuoted: It would be interesting, but I also think it would be full of bickering. I never see bickering on here  Beans/No beans 9/45 Glock/1911 I like the idea though dog/stand hunting public land entitlements shooting fawns It's a buck, I have a tag, so I can shoot it, ragardless of how big it is. Landowners are jerks cause they won't let me hunt their land |
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crossbow/compound/recurve/traditional - Ban all of them!
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It would be interesting, but I also think it would be full of bickering. I never see bickering on here
Beans/No beans 9/45 Glock/1911 I like the idea though dog/stand hunting - Separate seasons or a $500 tax for each stand or dog! public land entitlements - Auction off the hunting rights to the highest bidder! shooting fawns - If they are about to charge, it's you or them! It's a buck, I have a tag, so I can shoot it, regardless of how big it is. - They won't hold still long enough for me to use a tape measure! Landowners are jerks cause they won't let me hunt their land - They're only jerks when they catch you trespassing. Don't get caught!  Just kidding! 
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: crossbow/compound/recurve/traditional - Ban all of them! Quoted: It would be interesting, but I also think it would be full of bickering. I never see bickering on here Beans/No beans 9/45 Glock/1911 I like the idea though dog/stand hunting - Separate seasons or a $500 tax for each stand or dog! public land entitlements - Auction off the hunting rights to the highest bidder! shooting fawns - If they are about to charge, it's you or them! It's a buck, I have a tag, so I can shoot it, regardless of how big it is. - They won't hold still long enough for me to use a tape measure! Landowners are jerks cause they won't let me hunt their land - They're only jerks when they catch you trespassing. Don't get caught! Just kidding!  Some people you just think you would like to share a hunting camp with.   |
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maybe just start a QDM thread with various discussions. Maybe some people will IM/PM each other, others will bicker, and hopefully the moderator won't close it out. I'd think it would be a good thing to do. But everyone has their own ideas, with or with out good reason. Others just don't see it any other way but their own. Now I've got to admit I'm pretty hard headed but what the heck, I think I can still learn. We'd have to categorize those with several thousand acres and deer proof fences vs those with smaller land parcels, 640 or 320 acres or less, and fences deer are able to cross. There is a huge difference in scale with some principles applicable to all, and some specific to smaller or larger properties. If that was kept in perspective, it might be one hell of a good forum for a wide variety of hunters. |
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I'm in. 5K acre lease in S. Texas w/MLDP (Managed Lands Deer Permit). We eat, sleep and breathe QDM. I would be all for it, but in honest MOST people have no idea what is really put into improving a herd and way to many people have no single idea about the reality involving herd mangement. Take the management process of any given doe numbers....... some say take doe early, some say take doe late..... but the truth to the matter is when getting doe numbers right , the only concern and guideline to be met is very simple. " time simply does not matter when they are shot and removed from the herd", only guideline is the animal standing still long enough to be shot and getting your numbers RIGHT..LOL!! |
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Ok I will start the QMD fight.
Watching QMD on TV drives me crazy. That is not hunting. That is farming with a rifle. I hunt in the woods. Not on a farm. I do not feed the deer. GOD feeds the deer. I shoot any legal deer I want. Planting crops for the deer. Watching the deer on cameras. And then acting surprised when the same deer that has been showing in the same field on the same camera is pathetic. Ok I'm done rant off. I'm sure many have a very different view. I yield the floor. MIKE. |
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Ok I will start the QMD fight. Watching QMD on TV drives me crazy. That is not hunting. That is farming with a rifle. I hunt in the woods. Not on a farm. I do not feed the deer. GOD feeds the deer. I shoot any legal deer I want. Planting crops for the deer. Watching the deer on cameras. And then acting surprised when the same deer that has been showing in the same field on the same camera is pathetic. Ok I'm done rant off. I'm sure many have a very different view. I yield the floor. MIKE. I got into a discussion with someone not too long ago over the "free chase" issue. They didn't like cattle being on the land where they deer hunted, they didn't like the fact that others fed them corn, etc. And yes, I can pretty much see why lots of hunters don't like that. As far as the TV shows, that's a joke and doesn't apply to the average hunters in this country. But I'm not in the 1830s where I'm living off the land, avoiding Indians, and trapping for a living. The deer have adapted to the way this country is now and so have the hunters. I'd like being the only one for several dozen uninhabited miles hunting a deer but that's not going to happen. Hunting cannot even begin to resemble that anymore for the average hunter. Now it's a huge commercial enterprise enabling everyone to think they are a modern day Daniel Boone. I'm not foolish enough to believe that. But learning how to maintain a healthy deer population in MODERN TIMES and MODERN PLACES can only ensure that some type of hunting tradition will remain in our society. I have a real interest in that and I know you do too. I don't intend to make a living off of being a "professional camo wearing, deer killing bubba" pushing some hunting product on TV off on a naive public. But I would like to see a lot more kids get the opportunity to hunt and score a nice buck. It would make them hunters and sportsmen for life and keep the hunting tradition alive. |
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The thing about QDM is that it is not cut and dry. What is a good strategy for one part of the state/country, is not necessarily going to work in another.
I hear all to often people caiming to be deer experts who follow it up with a statement like "You absolutley can't shoot too many does", or something along those lines. What if you don't have enough of a deer population, and you keep shooting does relentlessly? That's not going to help build a good sized herd. The point is that in all these discussions about QDM, people have to keep an open mind since there is a good chance that their own experiences are not identical to everyone else's situation. Different areas, population numbers, habitat, weather conditions, state laws, etc., will all have an effect on management. |
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The thing about QDM is that it is not cut and dry. What is a good strategy for one part of the state/country, is not necessarily going to work in another. I hear all to often people caiming to be deer experts who follow it up with a statement like "You absolutley can't shoot too many does", or something along those lines. What if you don't have enough of a deer population, and you keep shooting does relentlessly? That's not going to help build a good sized herd. The point is that in all these discussions about QDM, people have to keep an open mind since there is a good chance that their own experiences are not identical to everyone else's situation. Different areas, population numbers, habitat, weather conditions, state laws, etc., will all have an effect on management. Exactly right. And we can all learn from discussing issues from other locations. Someone might post something that doesn't apply to someone else right then but later on down the road, it may be dead on. |
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Ok I will start the QMD fight. Watching QMD on TV drives me crazy. That is not hunting. That is farming with a rifle. I hunt in the woods. Not on a farm. I do not feed the deer. GOD feeds the deer. I shoot any legal deer I want. Planting crops for the deer. Watching the deer on cameras. And then acting surprised when the same deer that has been showing in the same field on the same camera is pathetic. Ok I'm done rant off. I'm sure many have a very different view. I yield the floor. MIKE. Do you hunt on public land or private? QDM won't work on public land. Too many people with a "if it's brown it's down" mindset killing whatever they see in front of them. The state I live in is 99% private land. Access to land to hunt is paid for. Not uncommon for hunting leases to stay in the same hands for years upon years. Hunters take a sense of ownership of their animal populations. If you had any idea what little forage exists here you'd maybe understand why we plant for them and set out feeders. Deer will eat cactus if they have to. We try to alleviate some of their stress. I shoot most any deer I want to too. I don't want to shoot a buck before his prime. I don't need to rush to shoot the first thing I see. I'll see plenty. Seeing a big buck walk is tempered by the fact he'll be that much bigger next year. The deer are still wild. We're not high-fenced, so they can go away if they wish. If they smell you, see you draw your bow, or hear your safety click off, they'll bolt. I don't know anybody that acts like those guys on TV. Don't know how much of that is made-for-TV "excitement". Ultimately it may boil down to goals. We want to see our bucks live to maturity and reach their potential. We harvest with that goal in mind. We have the luxury of sufficient ground space/hunter access control we're reasonably assured our efforts are not in vain. We're also blessed with deer populations large enough we can afford to be choosy. Our primary focus is on the long-term health of the deer population, not just in filling the freezer this year. From discussions I've had with hunters up in your neck of the woods, primary focus is meat. Different strokes. |
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Yes New York has great expanses of public land. The Adirondack park is over 5 million acres and the Catskill park is over 700 thousand acres.
I hunt on both public and private land in both regions. It is illegal to feed deer in NYS. No salt licks or other attractants. I went to South Carolina once with a large group from NY. We were appalled to find out that feeders and bait were legal. We have mandatory QMD in a few wildlife areas of the southern region of New York and there are many voluntary QMD areas in NY. I do not believe sitting in a stand waiting for the deer you feed to show up for dinner is hunting. Sorry it is just how I feel. I know it is a regional thing, we have different hunting experiences. I have only shot two what I consider "good bucks", most likely not good bucks by QMD standards but I am very proud of them just the same. If you pass on a buck in the woods it might be the only buck you see that year. Sitting in a stand watching a parade of corn fed deer pass by until you see one you want just does not seem like hunting to me. We still hunt, track, drive and stand hunt. MIKE. |
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We plant food plots and I can assure you that there's no parade of deer.
Most of the activity is at night, but yes, it does up your odds, no more than hunting a productive oak ridge. QDM can be practiced on a mix of public and private land, you just have to share some of it, it's good good for the herd and I'm willing to reap what benefit I can at the expense of the possiblity that "my" deer get shot on the public land. I think QDM should be discussed here on the deer hunting board, if you want more, go to the QDMA forum - I do. |
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Sitting in a stand watching a parade of corn fed deer pass by until you see one you want just does not seem like hunting to me. It just is what it is. Two extremes - w/o QDM, it's often "OMG, a DEER!" Bang! Hunt over. You don't know what you have around you and what you may have missed. But you have meat in the freezer so that's ok. And it is ok. With QDM, you get to observe deer, sometimes dozens, and make a decision about whether any are shooters. If you seek the adrenaline rush of OMGTHERE'SADEERIGOTTAKILLITBANG then yeah, we don't have that so much. Until you know you've got a monster 170+ point buck, that only gave you a glimpse, or you've only seen on a camera, and you've been sitting on a stand all week morning and night hoping he's still in the area. There is suspense in that. They're pretty cagey by that point. They usually present as long shots down the sendero. Quoted:
We still hunt, track, drive and stand hunt. S Texas is nothing but mesquite and cactus. Not real pleasant. Mesquite is very thorny, and cactus goes right through brush pants. It all grows so thick you can't see the rattlesnakes. Not real good walking country. |
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I guess my disappointment, for a lack of a better word, in that kind of hunting is when instead of advertising rifles and boots, the only two things I was taught you need to be a good deer hunter, they advertise huge tractors, seed, fertilizer, and weed killer.
I wonder how people in Texas killed deer before feeders, metal deer stands, atv's, food plots and range finders. |
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I guess my disappointment, for a lack of a better word, in that kind of hunting is when instead of advertising rifles and boots, the only two things I was taught you need to be a good deer hunter, they advertise huge tractors, seed, fertilizer, and weed killer. I wonder how people in Texas killed deer before feeders, metal deer stands, atv's, food plots and range finders. Texas is probably leading the change of deer hunting from some of the traditional ways. As general human population increases, our natural spaces available for hunting continue to shrink away. There has been a business side of hunting that has exploded in recent years. Do I think it's all necessary? Of course not. But in a way, it thrills me to think the sport is vibrant and active. The alternative, with all the distractions available to today's youth, is a depressing thought. Seed, fertilizer, plots planted to benefit the wildlife - what's so wrong in trying to give the deer a little more to work with? Certainly that all will benefit deer that won't be harvested this year, and will carry a good effect on. Is it enough on it's own to create conditions where an artficial number of deer are sustained where the land normally wouldn't be able to support that population? Not in any instance I've seen. Without any appreciable public lands to hunt on (here), and with a culture well-ingrained with the concept of pay-to-hunt, it should be no small wonder that there has been a business-like approach creeping into the sport. It is in some ways distasteful to those closer in touch to the traditional way. I understand that, and I think a lot of QDM proponents do. It is hard to balance evolution and tradition. Paticularly in something so tradition-bound as hunting. Would our forefathers look at today's breech-loading short magnums, telescopic sights, space-age thin insulating garments, and declare us as non-hunters - because no self-respecting hunter needs anything more than a flintlock, a wool coat and rags to wrap around his feet? Maybe. I'm not asking for everyone to drop their traditions. Just that when they look at QDM, try to see the big picture. Sometimes it's too easy to put partial information into context more readily digested. As in, a northern hunter may not understand why drives aren't a common tactic in S Texas. Because it works in WI or MI or NY - why don't Texans just do it too? Things like terrain, culture, and - gasp - traditions are different. But at the end of the day we're still hunters. We need to remember that, and not allow differences about how we go about it to come between us. We have far too serious enemies to allow that to happen. |
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I guess my disappointment, for a lack of a better word, in that kind of hunting is when instead of advertising rifles and boots, the only two things I was taught you need to be a good deer hunter, they advertise huge tractors, seed, fertilizer, and weed killer. I wonder how people in Texas killed deer before feeders, metal deer stands, atv's, food plots and range finders. Texas is probably leading the change of deer hunting from some of the traditional ways. As general human population increases, our natural spaces available for hunting continue to shrink away. There has been a business side of hunting that has exploded in recent years. Do I think it's all necessary? Of course not. But in a way, it thrills me to think the sport is vibrant and active. The alternative, with all the distractions available to today's youth, is a depressing thought. Seed, fertilizer, plots planted to benefit the wildlife - what's so wrong in trying to give the deer a little more to work with? Certainly that all will benefit deer that won't be harvested this year, and will carry a good effect on. Is it enough on it's own to create conditions where an artificial number of deer are sustained where the land normally wouldn't be able to support that population? Not in any instance I've seen. Without any appreciable public lands to hunt on (here), and with a culture well-ingrained with the concept of pay-to-hunt, it should be no small wonder that there has been a business-like approach creeping into the sport. It is in some ways distasteful to those closer in touch to the traditional way. I understand that, and I think a lot of QDM proponents do. It is hard to balance evolution and tradition. Particularly in something so tradition-bound as hunting. Would our forefathers look at today's breech-loading short magnums, telescopic sights, space-age thin insulating garments, and declare us as non-hunters - because no self-respecting hunter needs anything more than a flintlock, a wool coat and rags to wrap around his feet? Maybe. I'm not asking for everyone to drop their traditions. Just that when they look at QDM, try to see the big picture. Sometimes it's too easy to put partial information into context more readily digested. As in, a northern hunter may not understand why drives aren't a common tactic in S Texas. Because it works in WI or MI or NY - why don't Texans just do it too? Things like terrain, culture, and - gasp - traditions are different. But at the end of the day we're still hunters. We need to remember that, and not allow differences about how we go about it to come between us. We have far too serious enemies to allow that to happen. Outstanding post! I would never allow any of our differences to cause a rift to be exploited by anti hunters. I will always support your right to hunt your way. I just hope that our young people don't grow up thinking that you need a tractor and a hunting lease to hunt. I hope there is always the opportunity for young people to get into the woods for free or a nominal cost and enjoy the great outdoors. I also hope that we don't become so corrupted by images on the Outdoor channel that we believe we have to shoot "world class" bucks to be a successful hunter. When I look back on my 40 years of hunting I do relish the times that I took game home but it was the experience and camaraderie with friends that I always remember. Yes it is true that many up north put a value on "putting meat in the freezer". I was taught that wild game was something to be shared with family and friends and that the cooking, eating, exchanging recipe's and enjoying putting food on the table was as important as the taking of the game. I hope that we don't loose that respect for the game we take. A co-worker took his 14 year old deer hunting for the first this year. We just lowered the age for deer hunting in NYS from 16 to 14 with the gun. It has always been 14 with the bow. We have the libtards in NYC to thank for that problem. Opening day after climbing a large mountain they hunt a spike horn showed up. His son shot it. I met his son at the Thanksgiving Day Parade a few days latter. Trust me it was a "world class buck" for his son and the only buck he saw for the remaining three weeks of the season. I hope the QDM crowd does not loose sight of a father a son hunting for the first time together and what they consider a trophy. MIKE. |
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I hope the QDM crowd does not lose sight of a father a son hunting for the first time together and what they consider a trophy. MIKE. Mike, we are on the same page. Believe me, I'm right there with you on nearly everything you've said. What we should perhaps take a look at is where we compliment each other in the fight against those that would deny us our rights and traditions. Let me expound: When I am confronted by anti hunting sentiment expressed about how hunters "only hunt for trophys, and their actions are self-defeating since they take the nicest bucks out of the gene pool every year", I point to QDM programs, where bucks and does are kept in balance via surveys, and bucks with good genes are allowed to reach maturity before harvest. When allowed time to explain, I can deflate their position handily as the hogwash it is. On the other hand, when hunting is attacked as "shooting cows in a pen", I have plenty of evidence to point to states such as yours where fair chase is above all the rule of the day. Bottom line is, we're blessed to live in a country where we can exercise our options. Perhaps the very diversity that exists within our hunting community creates the alloy stronger than the elements it's made of, and thereby stronger than anything our enemies can muster against us. If they ever get a sense they can "divide and conquer" by creating a rift between traditionals and QDMs, they'll surely try to exploit it. It sounds like we're on the same page on that score, and you can count on me to defend hunting and hunter's rights at any time, at any place. |
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I'd be up for a QDM forum but only if a mod would delete anyone's post that's against QDM and is only stopping in the forum to bitch about QDM.
Earlier someone said QDM won't work on public lands. I disagree. A friend of mine hunts a parcel of around 1500 acres. There are 3 other groups that also hunt that parcel. These are the same 3 groups that have been hunting there for the past 10 years. They do brown is down because they think the next guys will blast the fork buck if they pass it up. My 2 arguments are as following: 1. How do you know they will manage to kill the fork? Deer are very sneaky. You already have 5 forks on your wall so why not just shoot a doe instead. Maybe that fork will make it through. 2. Perhaps the other groups are thinking the same thing. Why not go over to their campsites and ask them. "Hey guys, we are tired of just shooting forks and spikes. If you guys would do the same, we'd be willing to pass up the smaller ones." What would it hurt to ask????? |
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I'd be up for a QDM forum but only if a mod would delete anyone's post that's against QDM and is only stopping in the forum to bitch about QDM. WOW! Now that's an open mind. Kind of like socialism. Disagree and your out! The forum would be for fellow QDMers so what would be the point to have it cluttered with guys constantly chimning in to complain about why QDM sucks or why they can't possibly try it???? We already have that in the regular forums. The entry to the QDM forum would have to be that you practice QDM and agree with QDM, otherwise it would be a waste of time. |
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I guess my disappointment, for a lack of a better word, in that kind of hunting is when instead of advertising rifles and boots, the only two things I was taught you need to be a good deer hunter, they advertise huge tractors, seed, fertilizer, and weed killer. I wonder how people in Texas killed deer before feeders, metal deer stands, atv's, food plots and range finders. It was easy, they just killed the first thing with a white tail that they saw. Killing a deer is easy, killing "that buck" is where the fun is. If we hunted like yall did and didn't "farm" our deer we would have shit herds. Killing a nice ten point is stupid if he is a year and a half old, let him breed for five more years and try to kill him in his prime. We manage our deer the best we can and because of that our average size is going to be a lot bigger than most. Last year I passed on a buck that ended up scoring 184 ?/8. I could have killed him with my pistol but thought he would be better this year (turns out another guy thought he was big enough  ). I could have killed a dozen "nice" deer but always wait for "the one".
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While I don't think QDM warrants its own forum, I intend to discuss it in this forum as I move forward with my current QDM project. My father and I are at the end of year one of controlling about 300 acres. We are both back in the game after being without land for the last decade. So far it is very encouraging.
The hardest part about a QDM program is the beginning. You generally have to "suffer" through a few years to begin to see the results. That being said, I have never seen anyone revert back to "if it's brown, it's down" after 3 years on even a loose QDM program. That being said, 90% of my experience has been in Mississippi and Louisiana. Environments vary greatly across this country, as do methods and traditions. Any program must be tailored to that specific area and the specific goals the hunters seek. |