Posted: 1/7/2014 7:35:14 AM EDT
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Long time lurker, fist time poster.
I know this is a very common question, but I would like to pole the collective wisdom. I'm a general and I'm looking to put together my first HF station. Because of space limitations I am looking at some of the "shack in a box" options. I have been running an Ft-60r with a number of different antenna's, and was able to talk the xyl into an antenna set up "that I don't notice." Which likely will mean some kind of attic installation. I have given serious thought to an FT-897D with internal power supply, likely used. Due to budget I would likely have to spring for a tuner later. (Have about $1000 for the station). The other option that recently came to light is something like a used Icom 765, the internal PSU, and antenna tuner. I would mainly be operating from home, but I would operate occasionally portable with a deep cycle battery. I can handle the menu frame work of my FT-60r, so I am not real worried about the 897D menu. I’ve operated HF on some field days with some old Kenwood rigs. The Icom set up would be less money, and from the reviews are good rigs, but old. The 897D is no spring chicken, but it’s still in production. (And it has 2m and 70cm, which would be nice, but my real purpose is to get on HF). So what’s the collective wisdom? |
| I was in your position about a year ago and went with a new FT-897d, internal PS and AT-897plus LGD tuner. It is not "shitty" at all. It's been around for a while, but as far as I'm concerned, it's well vetted and fit my needs perfectly. The way the menu system works is not an issue, once you figure out that you push and hold the buttons on the menu function to get to the sub menu of that function. It primarily sits as my base station rig, but I do take it out on the road every once and a while as it is rugged enough to do so. I really wouldn't hesitate to get another. |
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How are you going to be running your antenna line to the attic? To possibly stop some of the in-house RF problems you could have, consider putting an SG-239 at the antenna so you can feed a low-SWR 50 ohm coax line back down to the radio. If you're not afraid of used, I've seen some Icom 7200 radios for about $700 lately. If you go for an 857/897, you will need a second antenna for 2m/440. You might be able to get away with a small jpole type antenna in the same room as the radio. Don't forget to budget for a power supply. You've covered that in a few of your ideas - but not all include them. Are you going to do a DIY antenna? If so, the SG-239 has good reviews for random wire, dipole and loops.
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I have to agree with Elijah1, but remember we are "Old Hams" so our Likes may be a different.
It's like a new driver who wants a car, compared to an older driver who wants a luxury car. Both may get you there but one will be a more enjoyable ride. Selectivity in a radio will make your operating experience more enjoyable. (the same as driving in a luxury car and not hearing all the unwanted wind noise) Your antenna is at least Half (if not more) of the factor in your stations performance. You can have the best radio in the world and junk for an antenna and not make few contacts or you can have a simple radio and a great antenna and make many contacts. |
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Quoted:
Shack-in-a-box rigs have shitty selectivity. So if HF is your real goal just get an HF rig. Since you are just getting an HF rig get an Icom IC-7200 with carry handles. ^^^ This. Elijah nailed it. The handles sound like an unnecessary accessory. In fact, they serve dual purposes. They give you an easy way to pick it up, obviously. They also protect the dials and buttons on the front of the radio. I would add... get the quick reference guide, too. It will save you much digging in the manual. |
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With your budget you could afford a Icom 7200, and use the FT-60r to cover 2M with power supplied by
something like a powerwerx 30A supply (this is pretty close to my station setup now.) I love the 897 and had a couple, but can tell you there's is seriously no comparison between a modern design DSP IF rig like the 7200 and the 897, which is much older and only has audio DSP. |
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Antenna wise I will probably run an Alpha Delta DX-EE (40-20-15-10) dipole, which easily fits running straight across through the attic. I might run a DX-CC (80-40-20-15-10) but I would have to set it up as an L for one end of the 80 meter length (more of a 75 meter as I understand it). I also plan to run a Comet GP-1 vertical (about 4 foot high) also mounted inside for VHF/UHF at some point. Coax line is going to run straight up through a closet roof and into the attic. All our electronics are really in the basement at the other end of the house.
I thought about HF only rigs, like the 7200, but on the occasion I am running portable (we camp a lot and it would be fun to run the set up at our yearly family reunion) I did not really want the hassle of a Xciever, power supply, and tuner all as separate components to lug around. Hence, the all in one package like the Icom 765 or the very modular 897D. I have always been a "this is what my needs are" and lets get something that works with that, as opposed to forcing something to work, if that makes sense. |
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Quoted: I thought about HF only rigs, like the 7200, but on the occasion I am running portable (we camp a lot and it would be fun to run the set up at our yearly family reunion) I did not really want the hassle of a Xciever, power supply, and tuner all as separate components to lug around. Hence, the all in one package like the Icom 765 or the very modular 897D. I have always been a "this is what my needs are" and lets get something that works with that, as opposed to forcing something to work, if that makes sense. But what are your needs the OTHER 51 weeks of the year? Don't get me wrong, the 897 is a nice radio, but the DSP on it and the 7200 don't compare. You still need a power supply (or battery) and tuner with both so the only "extra" thing would be a mobile dual band radio. Its not that big of a deal. Plus if you out camping, UHF/VHF might not get out very far where you could contact the world with a wire hanging out of a tree with the 7200. Just food for thought. Scott |
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Quoted:
But what are your needs the OTHER 51 weeks of the year? Don't get me wrong, the 897 is a nice radio, but the DSP on it and the 7200 don't compare. You still need a power supply (or battery) and tuner with both so the only "extra" thing would be a mobile dual band radio. Its not that big of a deal. Plus if you out camping, UHF/VHF might not get out very far where you could contact the world with a wire hanging out of a tree with the 7200. Just food for thought. Scott Quoted:
Quoted:
I thought about HF only rigs, like the 7200, but on the occasion I am running portable (we camp a lot and it would be fun to run the set up at our yearly family reunion) I did not really want the hassle of a Xciever, power supply, and tuner all as separate components to lug around. Hence, the all in one package like the Icom 765 or the very modular 897D. I have always been a "this is what my needs are" and lets get something that works with that, as opposed to forcing something to work, if that makes sense. But what are your needs the OTHER 51 weeks of the year? Don't get me wrong, the 897 is a nice radio, but the DSP on it and the 7200 don't compare. You still need a power supply (or battery) and tuner with both so the only "extra" thing would be a mobile dual band radio. Its not that big of a deal. Plus if you out camping, UHF/VHF might not get out very far where you could contact the world with a wire hanging out of a tree with the 7200. Just food for thought. Scott Plus the Icom IC-7200 has optional handles.....that always always brings in the DX. 
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I can handle the menu frame work of my FT-60r, so I am not real worried about the 897D menu. The 857/897 menu is insane, bizarre, and that's the good part. But the 897 with built in FP-30 supply and LDG AT-897xxx tuner is a compact, all in one unit. The menus for 2m operation, memories and all, are very difficult. I never did get any repeaters programmed successfully. It is one thing to make all the settings, and entirely something else to get them into memory. You have to bounce around the manual from section to section. I think you'd be far better off with separate VHF and HF rigs. The 7200 is a very nice radio. I'm certainly satisfied with mine. And my club liked operating it so much another was purchased for club use, replacing older HF rigs. |
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You could consider a IC-718 $600 but to do digital you would need a signalink +$100.
Depending on your antenna solution/s you may need to add a tuner. The IC-7200 gets you into digital with only a standard USB cable. Which you could look at the cost as absorbing the expense of a signalink. The shack in a box solutions do get you into some less popular modes 2 Meter SSB, 10 Meter FM, and 6 Meter FM. The IC-718 and IC-7200 do not have the FM HF options. It really depends on what you really want to do and how you plan use your equipment. I went with the IC-7200 because of the look. You can do digital and your XYL doesn't even know your using your equipment with the speaker turned down.
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Quoted:
Depending on your antenna solution/s you may need to add a tuner. Quoted:
Depending on your antenna solution/s you may need to add a tuner. You need a tuner. The IC-718 and IC-7200 do not have the FM HF options. True, but the only place FM is used in HF is upper portion of 10 meters. That is for repeaters. The type of activity in this portion of 10 meters has been largely replace by 2 meters and 70 cm. 10 meter repeaters are a rarity in most parts of the USA now. I don't feel I am missing anything by not having FM on my IC-718, IC-7200. I also have a Ten-Tec Jupiter which is HF with FM, and I am sure I'm not missing anything. 10 meters is the highest band in HF. (HF is 3 mhz through 30 mhz) 6 meters and 2 meters is VHF (30 mhz to 300 mhz). 70 cm (aka "440") is UHF (300 mhz to 3 ghz). |
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OP, I was in your exact shoes about 6 months ago.
I bought a house and wanted to get a simple base setup. I mainly talk 2m/440 but was really itching to get into HF. I also don't have the bank to fund a mobile 2m/440, mobile HF and a base setup as well, so I was looking at all-in-ones to keep costs down, keep a tidy desk and get on the air quicker. I was looking for an FT-897D or an Icom 760MKii G Everyone's right, that the all in one radios don't do any one particular thing really well. I watched ebay and forums like a hawk and one day nabbed a mint FT-897D with FP-30 power supply AND AT-30 tuner for under $800 shipped. It's a great compact setup, built in power supply is awesome. I want to get a battery for it and take it camping. I will say that it does 2m very well, the menu is beyond complicated. I have to keep the comedic manual by me all the time. You almost have to get a programing setup like the RT Systems offerings, which is what I did and it got me going. What this rig did do, is get me interested in HF with a min. of fuss. I have a 10m dipole in my attic that I use to monitor in the evenings that was bought off ebay for $25.00. I figure when I get the money and motivation for a dedicated HF setup, I'll retire the FT-897D to a EMCOMM usage only. I have no regrets on my purchase. |
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Quoted: Long time lurker, fist time poster. I know this is a very common question, but I would like to pole the collective wisdom. I'm a general and I'm looking to put together my first HF station. Because of space limitations I am looking at some of the "shack in a box" options. I have been running an Ft-60r with a number of different antenna's, and was able to talk the xyl into an antenna set up "that I don't notice." Which likely will mean some kind of attic installation. I have given serious thought to an FT-897D with internal power supply, likely used. Due to budget I would likely have to spring for a tuner later. (Have about $1000 for the station). The other option that recently came to light is something like a used Icom 765, the internal PSU, and antenna tuner. I would mainly be operating from home, but I would operate occasionally portable with a deep cycle battery. I can handle the menu frame work of my FT-60r, so I am not real worried about the 897D menu. I’ve operated HF on some field days with some old Kenwood rigs. The Icom set up would be less money, and from the reviews are good rigs, but old. The 897D is no spring chicken, but it’s still in production. (And it has 2m and 70cm, which would be nice, but my real purpose is to get on HF). So what’s the collective wisdom? You can buy a 5W FLEX 1500, feed line, antenna and a good tuner for around 1000$ +/-. And, not used. |
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Quoted:
OP, I was in your exact shoes about 6 months ago. I bought a house and wanted to get a simple base setup. I mainly talk 2m/440 but was really itching to get into HF. I also don't have the bank to fund a mobile 2m/440, mobile HF and a base setup as well, so I was looking at all-in-ones to keep costs down, keep a tidy desk and get on the air quicker. I was looking for an FT-897D or an Icom 760MKii G Everyone's right, that the all in one radios don't do any one particular thing really well. I watched ebay and forums like a hawk and one day nabbed a mint FT-897D with FP-30 power supply AND AT-30 tuner for under $800 shipped. It's a great compact setup, built in power supply is awesome. I want to get a battery for it and take it camping. I will say that it does 2m very well, the menu is beyond complicated. I have to keep the comedic manual by me all the time. You almost have to get a programing setup like the RT Systems offerings, which is what I did and it got me going. What this rig did do, is get me interested in HF with a min. of fuss. I have a 10m dipole in my attic that I use to monitor in the evenings that was bought off ebay for $25.00. I figure when I get the money and motivation for a dedicated HF setup, I'll retire the FT-897D to a EMCOMM usage only. I have no regrets on my purchase. Having owned and operated all of these rigs mentioned below... (except the 857, which is electronically a clone to the 897) If you use the internal battery for the 897 it will automatically limit to 20 watts max output. No way to override it except to use external batteries powering through the power jack in the back. Then again, operating with small batteries at 100 w SSB, the power will not last very long. You may find a better deal on the older FT-897 or FT-857. The difference between those and the D models is that the 857D/897D have the 60 meter frequencies already programmed in. That's no real advantage and if you can get a good deal on a used 897 or 857, fine. What you can't do with these Yaesus or any other "shack in a box" is what I do all the time with my gear... I work HF while the 2m rig remains on monitoring the local repeater. I sometimes work two nets, one HF, one 2m, simultaneously, well, almost. I only speak through one mic at a time. You can't do that with the 897. The Yaesu FT-897/897D, FT-857/857D, and Icom IC-718 all have dual conversion receivers. The IC-7200 is triple conversion, and clearly the better receiver. I've swapped back and forth with an antenna switch. Signals I can hear well with the IC-7200 (or my Jupiter) cannot be heard with the dual conversion rigs. The Yaesu FT-897/897D, FT-857/857D, and Icom IC-718 all have a relatively poor DSP. The IC-7200 is far, far better in this regard. It is true that the IC-7200 does not have all the optional filters available for the other radios. It doesn't need optional filters... it has them already. There, saved you $400 more vs. a 718 with the filters to be equal to the 7200. The Yaesus have a crazy menu and are difficult to operate. I, too, had to have the manual open all the time to operate the FT-897. The Icoms, 718 and 7200 are both easy to operate, very intuitive. Most of the menu operation is "set once and forget". When I got my first IC-718 I operated from noon until after supper without ever looking at the manual. Filled a page in my log. Of all of these, the 7200 is the most ruggedly built. It has O-ring seals to make it water resistant (but not waterproof). And as much as we joke about the "tactical handles" they do provide added protection for the knobs and buttons on the front panel. They are not really carry handles at all, nor intended to be. They may look like "rack handles" but are not... they are more like a brush guard on front of a truck. All of these HF rigs are 100 w SSB, and 25-30 w or so AM. That is as much a function of available voltage as anything else. All can use proper setting of mic gain and compression. You can NOT do this yourself. You really need a friend listening and reporting back to you. They all have crappy mics. Switching to a Heil mic and properly adjusting mic gain and compression according to instructions will have you receiving very good signal and audio quality reports. So, this is what I base my recommendation of the IC-7200 over those other radios. In the end it is the bargain. You can spend more money, Icom IC-7410, for example. Up to you. For any of these you need a power supply and tuner, as well as an antenna. |
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You need a tuner. Quoted:
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Depending on your antenna solution/s you may need to add a tuner. You need a tuner. I was going along with the OP stating that later he was going to get the tuner. But one could build a single band dipole and tune it rough enough with the SWR meter on the IC-7200. At least he'd be on the air though on a single band seriously understating the capabilities of the rig. I used my IC-7200 initially with just a 10 meter dipole for a couple months before I got something better. We have a local 10 meter net weekly. |
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Quoted:
I was going along with the OP stating that later he was going to get the tuner. But one could build a single band dipole and tune it rough enough with the SWR meter on the IC-7200. At least he'd be on the air though on a single band seriously understating the capabilities of the rig. I used my IC-7200 initially with just a 10 meter dipole for a couple months before I got something better. We have a local 10 meter net weekly. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Depending on your antenna solution/s you may need to add a tuner. You need a tuner. I was going along with the OP stating that later he was going to get the tuner. But one could build a single band dipole and tune it rough enough with the SWR meter on the IC-7200. At least he'd be on the air though on a single band seriously understating the capabilities of the rig. I used my IC-7200 initially with just a 10 meter dipole for a couple months before I got something better. We have a local 10 meter net weekly. True enough. |
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About the HF antenna(s): Copper and copperweld wire quickly obtain a patina and become all but invisible against both sky and vegetation. Combine that with black Dacron cord, plastic insulators, and coax you're good to go. There are a lot of different antenna configurations available already assembled, but building them yourself will save your hard earned money. The ARRL Antenna Book is well worth the money because it contains information you will be referring to all through your ham radio career.
You will need an antenna tuner, and here you have two choices, manual and automatic. Automatic is more the more expensive of the two, whereas the manual allows you to substitute skill for money. Manual tuners are not hard to adjust and once you've found the proper settings and made a chart for each band, changing from one to the other only takes a few seconds. Shack-in-a-box rigs are compromises. Period. |
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And here's a FREE antenna book.
http://www.hamuniverse.com/n4jaantennabook.pdf Right click on this link and save it. |
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And here's a FREE antenna book. http://www.hamuniverse.com/n4jaantennabook.pdf Right click on this link and save it. Nice antenna pdf.....you IC-7200 fan boy. 
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^^^ This. Elijah nailed it. The handles sound like an unnecessary accessory. In fact, they serve dual purposes. They give you an easy way to pick it up, obviously. They also protect the dials and buttons on the front of the radio. I would add... get the quick reference guide, too. It will save you much digging in the manual. Quoted:
Quoted:
Shack-in-a-box rigs have shitty selectivity. So if HF is your real goal just get an HF rig. Since you are just getting an HF rig get an Icom IC-7200 with carry handles. ^^^ This. Elijah nailed it. The handles sound like an unnecessary accessory. In fact, they serve dual purposes. They give you an easy way to pick it up, obviously. They also protect the dials and buttons on the front of the radio. I would add... get the quick reference guide, too. It will save you much digging in the manual. And they look badass! |
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Well as a (very) new owner of the 7200 and 857D I will make a few comments.
The DSP on the IC7200 is impressive. And it *is* an order of magnitude better than the 857Ds audio DSP (which I find mostly useless for digi modes), BUT, if you get the mechanical filters for the 857D (which I got the 500Hz) then you are IF and not audio DSP and it is less of a difference between this aspect of the two. I said less, they are still not even close. But I did run the RTTY/PSKFEST contests all weekend with the 857D and the filter in and out to find signals and exclude strong ones and it worked great. Course the price of the filter pushes you closer to the IC7200. Having played with the DSP on the 7200 for just 30 minutes or so, it is waaaay easier to use. I don't mind the Yaesu menus on the 857D, thought they do slow you down, and I programmed all my local repeaters into it using CHIRP without any trouble. I am hopeful the 7200 will be equally simple to program channels for using CHIRP. Just if you do this make sure you download the stock config first and save a copy of that file before uploading anything to the radio, just so you can always go back to functional. The 7200 menus are less deep, so I already like it more than the 857D in that regard. It is closer to my FT840 that basically had NO menus...yay! But no DSP at all...boo! I have an LDG-Z100plus for the 857D, it is small and light and can be battery powered easily. I plan to get the LDG FT-meter to have a portable SWR/power meter for the 857D. Right now I am using an older MFJ-962C for the 7200, man I love those big twin needles!!! But I will probably get an auto-tuner for it at some point, unless I get an amp, which is why I bought the big 962. I plan to do some USIOTA activations with the 857D, tuner, battery, and hamsticks. Both via our cruiser and likely using the jetskis on weekend mornings to get to many of the unactivated islands on the lake. So I need to build up an ammo-can or pelican box solution for the radio. I already get looks on the ski cause of the nose art (and the fact it is an old beater that I only care that it runs well and not what it looks like) I wonder what having antenna on it will do? |
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I'm super new, but now that I worked out most of the kinks with the new radio, I like the Yaesu 875. I do mostly digital, and for some reason the DIG VOX setting was timing out, also lots of problems with the ALC. The solution was the use the CAT control cable, and it works much, MUCH better now. I also have an old Kenwood TS-440S that I like a lot, very good audio reports with that radio.
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| If you are looking for a more camping/man portable rig that you will run off batteries from time to time I would suggest the 897D as an integrated solution. With the bolt-on ATU and batteries its a bit heavy, but its quite rugged and you get much lower power consumption compared to the ICOM offerings. If you use the factory battery setup you have 9ah at 20W power output, which will last a few hours of use. You can also hombrew much cheaper/better battery packs that let you also run at higher power levels (I usually use up to 50-75W when I need). Again, I can't stress the integration of components enough for portable use especially compared to the hockmere setups I usually see when doing SOTA. |