[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Help choosing a handheld (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 3/16/2012 4:05:15 PM EDT
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First off I want to say that I have no experience with ham radio at all...
I'm interested in mobile hand held radio and I've just begun reading up and research on ham radios. From what I've read the FRS/GMRS radios work decently for short range recreational use, but if I'm going to invest into a radio for SHTF or just backpacking/camping I want to get something that will perform better. In everyday use I don't really care to talk to strangers, I'd mostly be using them to talk to my family or others in our group, however I would like to be able to listen to others around me(preferably being able to listen to frs/gmrs chatter, fire/police/ems chatter, other hams, ect.) I'm not concerned about passing the tests for the ham license, it seems there is plenty of info on the web to prep for the tests, and I can learn and remember information fairly well, I can also help friends or family do the same. I'm not sure if it's possible as I haven't found a straight answer but I'd also like it to be able to communicate with frs/gmrs units. I'd like to give these to the kids since their capabilities are adequate for what the kids would need. Would also be useful for hunting if others in the party had bubble pack radios. So knowing that I primarily want to use the radio during recreational activities or in case of a SHTF scenario, what kind of radio would you guys recommend? From reading online I've seen some people recommend a couple models but I'm not sure if they'd meet my needs? The two I was most interested in because of the price were the Yaesu FT-60R, and the Wouxun KG-UV6D. |
| depending on local EOC freq's you may not be able to listen to them with a amateur radio or even a hand held radio. if you just want to listen the best thing to get would be a hand held scanner. as for FRS/GMRS the FT60 is not type accepted and im not sure about the KG-UV6D but i doubt it is either so it is illegal to use them on those freq's. if you are planing on using FRS you cant use any other radio than one of the assorted bubble pack radios. if you have the GRMS license then you have a lot more options as long as the people you want to talk to all live in your house or have there own GRMS license. |
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depending on local EOC freq's you may not be able to listen to them with a amateur radio or even a hand held radio. if you just want to listen the best thing to get would be a hand held scanner. as for FRS/GMRS the FT60 is not type accepted and im not sure about the KG-UV6D but i doubt it is either so it is illegal to use them on those freq's. if you are planing on using FRS you cant use any other radio than one of the assorted bubble pack radios. if you have the GRMS license then you have a lot more options as long as the people you want to talk to all live in your house or have there own GRMS license. I didn't know that. I guess that's why I couldn't find any info on it. Out of curiosity though, how would that even be enforceable/detectable? |
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Get your Technician license, and get a good 2 meter handheld.
Check out the sticky thread in this forum on getting your license. I went to Barnes and Noble, got the ARRL Technician study book, read it every night for about a week and a half, studied the practice tests online and the question pool in the book, and passed my test later that month. Check on Radio Reference for repeaters in your local area. They will have a frequency of between 144.100 and 148.000 if they are in what is called the 2 meter band. |
as for the radio, the model goes through FCC testing and gets issued a FCC ID and is classified as whatever "part" it is being tested for. example, LMR(land mobile radios) are part 90. GMRS is part 95. if you are using the radio and it doesnt have the correct part then thats the easy tell. really the only way you would get caught is if you are doing something stupid, like txing without a call sign. the fact is its illegal and those of us that are licensed amateurs dont promote illegal activities. 
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My 2c:
Study, earn your tech license and become active on local VHF/UHF simplex nets or repeaters, possibly even become involved in local AREs. For "issued" radios to family members with no license in order to maintain communications: MURS is limited but requires no license, much like a VHF CB. GMRS is an option that only requires one license for a family group. Interoperability between Ham and MURS/GMRS will be difficult unless you either purchase ham radios that will transmit on the entire 2M or 70CM band out of the box, or mod amateur equipment. Of course, this is not legal. Doing it legally requires purchasing a commercial handheld that is type accepted to operate on the entire band range. Sorry for muddying the waters, but the base recommendation to get your technician's permit has not changed. |
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If you want to use the FRS service, you will need an FRS radio. FCC rules stipulate 500 mW max output, a permanently attached antenna, antenna height restrictions and others rules that preclude the use of ham gear. MURS allows 2 watts, forbids the use of repeaters and also has antenna height restrictions. So if you want to use an unlicensed service, just get one of the bubble pack radios and use it.
GMRS has a little more flexibility, but requires a license that is different from the amateur service. The license covers your whole family. If you expect to use the amateur frequencies and privileges, you really need to be active and get some use out of your gear. There is exponentially more flexibility with amateur radio and you really need some varied experience if you expect to use it during SHTF or even camping/hiking. Think about owning a motorcycle and keeping it stored in the garage until you need it for an emergency. Would you be able to use it then with little or no prior experience? ETA: I don't have a Yaesu FT-60, but it is a terrific amateur handheld, good for both beginner and seasoned veteran. I have a VX-5 and a VX-7 and love both of them. They're lighter and a bit more capable than the FT-60, but much more expensive. The FT-60 is just downright rugged and practical though. It also has the advantage of taking a AA battery pack that has decent power. |
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My 2c: Study, earn your tech license and become active on local VHF/UHF simplex nets or repeaters, possibly even become involved in local AREs. For "issued" radios to family members with no license in order to maintain communications: MURS is limited but requires no license, much like a VHF CB. GMRS is an option that only requires one license for a family group. Interoperability between Ham and MURS/GMRS will be difficult unless you either purchase ham radios that will transmit on the entire 2M or 70CM band out of the box, or mod amateur equipment. Of course, this is not legal. Doing it legally requires purchasing a commercial handheld that is type accepted to operate on the entire band range. Sorry for muddying the waters, but the base recommendation to get your technician's permit has not changed. GMRS license is only for family that lives in one household, NOT for your entire family. just wanted to clear that up. also, modding your equipment isnt illegal, using it on those freq;s you modded it for is. as for 2m and MURS, you can program LMR gear for both amateur and LMR freq's legally and most LMR gear is more robust than amateur gear. the down side is you cant program most of them on the fly as you can amateur gear. now, there are issues with that as well since MURS is limited to 2w and most LMR radios are 5w. there are some that have the ability to adjust the wattage but even then are usually 5/2.5/1w options so you have either .5w to much or 1w to little and with HT's 1w is a lot. i personally run both LMR and amateur and can tell you the amateur gear cant hold a candle to the LMR quality. but its not everyones cup of tea. while amateur is your best bet all around the FCC is looking at dropping the license for GMRS so keep that in mind. might be worth it to pick up a couple of good radios just for that reason. LMR radios that is. |
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My 2c: Study, earn your tech license and become active on local VHF/UHF simplex nets or repeaters, possibly even become involved in local AREs. For "issued" radios to family members with no license in order to maintain communications: MURS is limited but requires no license, much like a VHF CB. GMRS is an option that only requires one license for a family group. Interoperability between Ham and MURS/GMRS will be difficult unless you either purchase ham radios that will transmit on the entire 2M or 70CM band out of the box, or mod amateur equipment. Of course, this is not legal. Doing it legally requires purchasing a commercial handheld that is type accepted to operate on the entire band range. Sorry for muddying the waters, but the base recommendation to get your technician's permit has not changed. So to simplify, you're recommending that I get my license and a HT for SHTF type stuff or emergencies, and use more common gear like the FRS/GMRS radios for backpacking/camping/hunting? I understand that I shouldn't get the ham and pack it away until I need it, I'll need to keep proficient and up to date with it. Quoted:
If you want to use the FRS service, you will need an FRS radio. FCC rules stipulate 500 mW max output, a permanently attached antenna, antenna height restrictions and others rules that preclude the use of ham gear. MURS allows 2 watts, forbids the use of repeaters and also has antenna height restrictions. So if you want to use an unlicensed service, just get one of the bubble pack radios and use it. GMRS has a little more flexibility, but requires a license that is different from the amateur service. The license covers your whole family. If you expect to use the amateur frequencies and privileges, you really need to be active and get some use out of your gear. There is exponentially more flexibility with amateur radio and you really need some varied experience if you expect to use it during SHTF or even camping/hiking. Think about owning a motorcycle and keeping it stored in the garage until you need it for an emergency. Would you be able to use it then with little or no prior experience? ETA: I don't have a Yaesu FT-60, but it is a terrific amateur handheld, good for both beginner and seasoned veteran. I have a VX-5 and a VX-7 and love both of them. They're lighter and a bit more capable than the FT-60, but much more expensive. The FT-60 is just downright rugged and practical though. It also has the advantage of taking a AA battery pack that has decent power. You'd be surprised how well something sticks once I do/learn it You're right though, if it comes down to needing the equipment I don't want to be trying to remember what to do. Thanks for the insight on the Yaesu. From what I saw online it seemed to be a good, reliable HT that also functioned fairly well as a scanner. Does that seem to be a accurate assessment?
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GMRS license is only for family that lives in one household, NOT for your entire family. just wanted to clear that up. also, modding your equipment isnt illegal, using it on those freq;s you modded it for is. as for 2m and MURS, you can program LMR gear for both amateur and LMR freq's legally and most LMR gear is more robust than amateur gear. the down side is you cant program most of them on the fly as you can amateur gear. now, there are issues with that as well since MURS is limited to 2w and most LMR radios are 5w. there are some that have the ability to adjust the wattage but even then are usually 5/2.5/1w options so you have either .5w to much or 1w to little and with HT's 1w is a lot. i personally run both LMR and amateur and can tell you the amateur gear cant hold a candle to the LMR quality. but its not everyones cup of tea. while amateur is your best bet all around the FCC is looking at dropping the license for GMRS so keep that in mind. might be worth it to pick up a couple of good radios just for that reason. LMR radios that is. I tried a little searching on google, but I couldn't come to a clear answer on what exactly a LMR radio was. I've just begun researching and learning in this and I'm not sure what all the acronyms are quite yet. The part about the FCC possibly dropping the GMRS license sounds good though. Who knows how likely it is but I just checked and $85 for a license seems a bit steep for what most people say is a small step up in performance from FRS. |
| LMR is land mobile radios, they are the professional radios that cops, fire/ems depts use, even .gov and .mil. motorola is one of the largest makers as well as kenwood and vertex standard. they usually cost more new and can require a pro shop to program them. kenwood has there software free for most of there radios so all you need is the programming cable. i have a vertex VX-800 that i paid $200 for, $10 for the cable and got the software for free. its 200ch's, narrow band compliant, and is hands down better than the motorola HT-750 i have for work. i have also had Icom radios that i paid $100 for the radios, add in a couple of antennas for $15 each as well as the batteries and charger(cant remember the price) and another $10 cable with free programming software. those were 256ch's and not as good as the vertex but i think still better or right there with the HT750. |
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LMR is land mobile radios, they are the professional radios that cops, fire/ems depts use, even .gov and .mil. motorola is one of the largest makers as well as kenwood and vertex standard. they usually cost more new and can require a pro shop to program them. kenwood has there software free for most of there radios so all you need is the programming cable. i have a vertex VX-800 that i paid $200 for, $10 for the cable and got the software for free. its 200ch's, narrow band compliant, and is hands down better than the motorola HT-750 i have for work. i have also had Icom radios that i paid $100 for the radios, add in a couple of antennas for $15 each as well as the batteries and charger(cant remember the price) and another $10 cable with free programming software. those were 256ch's and not as good as the vertex but i think still better or right there with the HT750. So are there any licensing or regulations around these? Price wise they sound like they're in the same range as the ham HT's, but I think I remember reading somewhere that police/fire/ems sometimes have trouble with the range of their radios. Are these comparable in range to a ham HT, or more like a GMRS radio? What's the benefit of the amount of channels, just more options for private communication or the ability to communicate with other radios like ham or gmrs? |
LMR can be used on ham bands, usually 2m and 70cm depending on the model you buy. range is the same as any other 5w HT. there is no such thing as "private" on ham radio per the "rules". the more ch's the more freq's you can have programmed in, so if one freq is in use just flip the dial and go to the next. as for the GMRS thing, even though its type accepted for LMR that doesnt make it type accepted for GMRS it goes back to that whole "legal" thing. the flip side is, if you find a radio that was type 90 accepted BEFORE they came out with the GMRS you can use those on GMRS. i have seen a list of the approved radios but for the life of me i cant remember what they were but its on the net, somewhere. LOL. 
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GMRS license is only for family that lives in one household, NOT for your entire family. just wanted to clear that up. also, modding your equipment isnt illegal, using it on those freq;s you modded it for is. as for 2m and MURS, you can program LMR gear for both amateur and LMR freq's legally and most LMR gear is more robust than amateur gear. the down side is you cant program most of them on the fly as you can amateur gear. now, there are issues with that as well since MURS is limited to 2w and most LMR radios are 5w. there are some that have the ability to adjust the wattage but even then are usually 5/2.5/1w options so you have either .5w to much or 1w to little and with HT's 1w is a lot. i personally run both LMR and amateur and can tell you the amateur gear cant hold a candle to the LMR quality. but its not everyones cup of tea. while amateur is your best bet all around the FCC is looking at dropping the license for GMRS so keep that in mind. might be worth it to pick up a couple of good radios just for that reason. LMR radios that is. I understand the acceptance and usage regulations, but was trying to keep from muddying the waters too much. OP: MURS would likely be the simplest approach to handout radios that can be used without permit but are more capable than FRS. LMR gear is great, but, for the most part, it is either expensive or the older cheap equipment requires unobtanium software and obsolete DOS computers. |
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Quoted: Quoted: depending on local EOC freq's you may not be able to listen to them with a amateur radio or even a hand held radio. if you just want to listen the best thing to get would be a hand held scanner. as for FRS/GMRS the FT60 is not type accepted and im not sure about the KG-UV6D but i doubt it is either so it is illegal to use them on those freq's. if you are planing on using FRS you cant use any other radio than one of the assorted bubble pack radios. if you have the GRMS license then you have a lot more options as long as the people you want to talk to all live in your house or have there own GRMS license. I didn't know that. I guess that's why I couldn't find any info on it. Out of curiosity though, how would that even be enforceable/detectable? It's enforceable with one of these, the Wouff-Hong and the Rettysnitch:  And if them don't learn ya....there's always an Uggerumph |
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Quoted: lol, it just seems that it would be difficult to identify or locate the source if someone was doing this. Really it depends on how bad the FCC wants to talk to you. With a concerted effort to locate someone...they can 'git er did' pretty quickly. Lots of ham clubs have 'Fox Hunts' periodicly. They track down a transmitter using their radios. It's fun and good practice homing in on a signal which in the real world, might be interference or a pirate station. |
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lol, it just seems that it would be difficult to identify or locate the source if someone was doing this. ask some of the hunters in the western part of Va and even in Wv that use marine radios as there personal CB's just how long it takes for the FCC to find them. when the FCC wants to get something done, they get it done and in a hurry. |
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lol, it just seems that it would be difficult to identify or locate the source if someone was doing this. ask some of the hunters in the western part of Va and even in Wv that use marine radios as there personal CB's just how long it takes for the FCC to find them. when the FCC wants to get something done, they get it done and in a hurry. Well that makes sense... If you're picking up chatter on a frequency designated for marine use....and you're no where near water, something isn't right. What doesn't make sense to me is how anyone would even know a ham radio was transmitting on a FRS or GMRS frequency with someone else. I mean there are so many FRS/GMRS radios out there what would make you suspect the chatter you're listening to is coming from a ham? And for that matter why would a ham radio transmitting on a FRS frequency even be a problem since the FRS frequency is available to anyone without a license? I'm not saying it's right, just curious. Anyways, I think a FRS/GMRS radio like these might work out for me. The only thing I don't like is that the realistic range is shorter than I'd like. I suspect their range would be fine 90% of the time, but it would be nice if they could reach out further. What about CB though? I don't hear a lot about CB on here, but I know truckers use them and it seems like every redneck has one in their truck. Would the range be better than FRS/GMRS? It seems I'd have to put up with more people using the channels just like FRS, but does CB have more channels/frequencies? Seems like the best route would be simple FRS/GMRS for the people in our group, who will be relatively close to each other, and a ham radio capable of longer ranger for emergency stuff. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: depending on local EOC freq's you may not be able to listen to them with a amateur radio or even a hand held radio. if you just want to listen the best thing to get would be a hand held scanner. as for FRS/GMRS the FT60 is not type accepted and im not sure about the KG-UV6D but i doubt it is either so it is illegal to use them on those freq's. if you are planing on using FRS you cant use any other radio than one of the assorted bubble pack radios. if you have the GRMS license then you have a lot more options as long as the people you want to talk to all live in your house or have there own GRMS license. I didn't know that. I guess that's why I couldn't find any info on it. Out of curiosity though, how would that even be enforceable/detectable? It's enforceable with one of these, the Wouff-Hong and the Rettysnitch: http://www.netcore.us/wh/rw1wm1.jpg And if them don't learn ya....there's always an Uggerumph http://www.qrpforum.de/index.php?page=Attachment&attachmentID=2702&h=d4171bb65c0892749df54f655e99331de053619e&thumbnail=1 |
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To me, it seems altogether worthwhile to get a ticket and Ham HT.
I don't know what those bubblepack radios sound like on the air but I suspect a quality ham or LMR HT might sound "too good" on FRS and thereby "detectable". But as regards ham HTs, for a basic current production unit I really like the FT60. I have a life (sort of) and other gadgetry and technical matter I need to use to make a living. The learning required for the FT60 to perform basic functions (i.e. select frequencies and program memory channels) was easy, and a computer and programming cable are absolutely not required. It does cost a bit more than the Wouxun but that particular competitor has caused the FT60 to be priced quite reasonably in today's market and the relative ease of use was worth the difference to me. Indeed, it is easier to use than my 15 year old RS brick form HTs. |
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<snip> Anyways, I think a FRS/GMRS radio like these might work out for me. The only thing I don't like is that the realistic range is shorter than I'd like. I suspect their range would be fine 90% of the time, but it would be nice if they could reach out further. What about CB though? I don't hear a lot about CB on here, but I know truckers use them and it seems like every redneck has one in their truck. Would the range be better than FRS/GMRS? It seems I'd have to put up with more people using the channels just like FRS, but does CB have more channels/frequencies? Seems like the best route would be simple FRS/GMRS for the people in our group, who will be relatively close to each other, and a ham radio capable of longer ranger for emergency stuff. Realistic range is going to be somewhere on the order of a mile or less (most often closer to 1/4-1/2 mile) unless you have line of sight using FRS. CB functions on a lower frequency and therefore requires a much larger antenna to work effectively. This is why you see big rigs with 102" whips. It is marginal at factory power levels unless there is a band opening. An FM ~50w ham mobile is far more effective under normal use. CB is a great capability to have, but terrible in handheld use and marginal in mobile use IMO. Production CBs generally come with 40 channelized frequencies. |
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Would CB handhelds have more range than gmrs/frs radios? I understand CB isn't as good as ham but getting everyone on my group licensed for ham is unrealistic. I'd like to be able to communicate over a mile for when members are away from our camp hiking, boating, or hunting.
I was thinking if people are using CB's to talk meaningful distances on the road it might be a option for my use. |
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From what I've read the FRS/GMRS radios work decently for short range recreational use, but if I'm going to invest into a radio for SHTF or just backpacking/camping I want to get something that will perform better.
A MURS (VHF) handheld should work about as well as a 2 meter (VHF) handheld, and an FRS/GMRS (UHF) handheld should work about as well as a 70 cm (UHF) handheld. In everyday use I don't really care to talk to strangers, I'd mostly be using them to talk to my family or others in our group
Amateur radio doesn't sound like your cup of tea then. Don't underestimate the capabilities of a CB with SSB (a 12 watt SSB signal is equivalent to a 48 watt AM signal). A combination of SSB CB base/mobile units and MURS/FRS/GMRS handhelds should work pretty well for you.
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From what I've read the FRS/GMRS radios work decently for short range recreational use, but if I'm going to invest into a radio for SHTF or just backpacking/camping I want to get something that will perform better.
A MURS (VHF) handheld should work about as well as a 2 meter (VHF) handheld, and an FRS/GMRS (UHF) handheld should work about as well as a 70 cm (UHF) handheld. In everyday use I don't really care to talk to strangers, I'd mostly be using them to talk to my family or others in our group
Amateur radio doesn't sound like your cup of tea then. Don't underestimate the capabilities of a CB with SSB (a 12 watt SSB signal is equivalent to a 48 watt AM signal). A combination of SSB CB base/mobile units and MURS/FRS/GMRS handhelds should work pretty well for you.yes and no for the MURS. while amateur HT's can run 5w, MURS HT's are limited to 2w. so you can figure a mile, 2 on a good day, as with anything antenna, antenna, antenna. |
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while amateur HT's can run 5w, MURS HT's are limited to 2w. so you can figure a mile, 2 on a good day
Even a milliwatt is more than sufficient for 2 miles: 1 mW is 0 dBm The free space path loss is about 86 dB -86 dBm is 11.2 μV An FT-60 only needs 0.16 μV for 12 dB SINAD |
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while amateur HT's can run 5w, MURS HT's are limited to 2w. so you can figure a mile, 2 on a good day
Even a milliwatt is more than sufficient for 2 miles: 1 mW is 0 dBm The free space path loss is about 86 dB -86 dBm is 11.2 μV An FT-60 only needs 0.16 μV for 12 dB SINAD  I'm pretty sure that's not english
Maybe I'd just be better off asking... If I want a hand held radio that I, and my family/friends can use without having to study & take a test for a license, that can reliably cover 1-2 miles possibly more in good conditions, what should I be looking at? If GMRS fits the best, I can get rid of my no license requirement. GMRS license seems to just be a fee and not any sort of knowledge test anyways. |
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/snip If I want a hand held radio that I, and my family/friends can use without having to study & take a test for a license, that can reliably cover 1-2 miles possibly more in good conditions, what should I be looking at? not possible... maybe 1-2 miles on an open horizon. 1-2 miles + hills/ mountains/ buildings/ trees = not possible with your requirements listed above. FRS and or GMRS will do several miles mountain top to mountain top... drop down into the real world and you are lucky to get 1/4 to 1/2 mile. Myself and five of my other hunting buddies use Garmin rino/ radio+gps so i have verified distances. I once owned a hand held cb... If you could not see the other person you were trying to talk to it would not work. CB mobile works a bit better. My story: I decided to get my ham ticket for emergency communications/shtf. I had no interest in just chatting on a radio as I work for my county's 911 center as a communications officer and spend 40 hours a week on the phone and radio. Well long story short I just upgraded to my general, have my inverted dipole ready for installation tomorrow, have several HTs, a mobile in my pickup truck and now have a 2m mobile + HF radio as a base station. I joined local RACES and can't wait to try to get into the arfcom net this up coming Tuesday. I found myself a new hobby and after moving over to the "ham side" you start to learn a little about radio every other day and realize what is capable with just a chunk of wire. Back on topic there is no answer to your above question. Best of luck to you
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If I want a hand held radio that I, and my family/friends can use without having to study & take a test for a license, that can reliably cover 1-2 miles possibly more in good conditions, what should I be looking at?
MURS is your best bet. That is kinda what I was thinking after reading all the information presented here and from other sources I've been reading around the net. Was looking at this radio as it seems to have the MURS frequency covered, and can be adjusted down into the MURS required wattage. Also looked like it could do ham frequencies too if wanted to listen/get my license. What do you think? |
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Was looking at this radio as it seems to have the MURS frequency covered, and can be adjusted down into the MURS required wattage.
That's a UHF radio, MURS is VHF: Multi-Use Radio Service |
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If I want a hand held radio that I, and my family/friends can use without having to study & take a test for a license, that can reliably cover 1-2 miles possibly more in good conditions, what should I be looking at?
MURS is your best bet. That is kinda what I was thinking after reading all the information presented here and from other sources I've been reading around the net. Was looking at this radio as it seems to have the MURS frequency covered, and can be adjusted down into the MURS required wattage. Also looked like it could do ham frequencies too if wanted to listen/get my license. What do you think? you can get the 777 in a VHF. its a nice little radio but not certified for MURS. you are kind of limited to radios that can be legally used on MURS. there are a few current production radios but as with anything to get something good you are going to have to pay for it. you can try and find some of the older MURS radios on ebay. another option would be the 900mhz radios found HERE. |
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If I want a hand held radio that I, and my family/friends can use without having to study & take a test for a license, that can reliably cover 1-2 miles possibly more in good conditions, what should I be looking at?
MURS is your best bet. I disagree. GMRS- REAL GMRS is you best bet. That means real 5w LMR radios with extended length antennas, and 50 watt mobile/base units. Not bubble pack units. Licensing is as easy as an online form. |
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For the hiking-from-a-base-camp-but-some-are-too-wussy-for-ham scenario , GMRS with a vehicle-mounted repeater and a telescoping mast might be the most robust solution. Base camp should be on high ground if there is significant terrain in the area.
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while amateur HT's can run 5w, MURS HT's are limited to 2w. so you can figure a mile, 2 on a good day
Even a milliwatt is more than sufficient for 2 miles: 1 mW is 0 dBm The free space path loss is about 86 dB -86 dBm is 11.2 μV An FT-60 only needs 0.16 μV for 12 dB SINAD Dang chlorophyll-impregnated attenuators! 
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If I want a hand held radio that I, and my family/friends can use without having to study & take a test for a license, that can reliably cover 1-2 miles possibly more in good conditions, what should I be looking at?
MURS is your best bet. I disagree. GMRS- REAL GMRS is you best bet. That means real 5w LMR radios with extended length antennas, and 50 watt mobile/base units. Not bubble pack units. Licensing is as easy as an online form. I couldn't seem to find any "real" gmrs radios, at least any that were advertised as gmrs only. I found a cobra unit on amazon that was marine vhf+gmrs, but I'd rather not have the marine portion of that. Quoted:
Was looking at this radio as it seems to have the MURS frequency covered, and can be adjusted down into the MURS required wattage.
That's a UHF radio, MURS is VHF: Multi-Use Radio Service Your right. I saw this radio on the murs-radio.com site and thought that the one on amazon.com was the same. I see now there is a PX-777 and a PX-777-PLUS. This seems to be the correct version of the PX-777 from Amazon, correct me if I'm wrong please. Quoted:
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If I want a hand held radio that I, and my family/friends can use without having to study & take a test for a license, that can reliably cover 1-2 miles possibly more in good conditions, what should I be looking at?
MURS is your best bet. That is kinda what I was thinking after reading all the information presented here and from other sources I've been reading around the net. Was looking at this radio as it seems to have the MURS frequency covered, and can be adjusted down into the MURS required wattage. Also looked like it could do ham frequencies too if wanted to listen/get my license. What do you think? you can get the 777 in a VHF. its a nice little radio but not certified for MURS. you are kind of limited to radios that can be legally used on MURS. there are a few current production radios but as with anything to get something good you are going to have to pay for it. you can try and find some of the older MURS radios on ebay. another option would be the 900mhz radios found HERE. So you're saying that the Puxing PX-777-PLUS is capable of operation on the MURS frequency's but isn't legal for doing so? Kinda like using a ham radio on on gmrs frequencies, it's not the correct "type"? I looked at those trisquare radios also, they look interesting but on the companies website they said the range is comparable to frs/gmrs radios. |
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Was looking at this radio as it seems to have the MURS frequency covered, and can be adjusted down into the MURS required wattage.
That's a UHF radio, MURS is VHF: Multi-Use Radio Service I believe that radio also comes in VHF . .as others pointed out and you noticed . . but with power limited you're back to the same problem. The new 900 mhz options look good for what bubble packs are. Perhaps too new to see the technology in better gear? For any real distance you have 4 primary variables . . antenna height, antenna efficiency, antenna polarization, and power . . .there are others, but these are the basics for a group that isn't going to learn code, use sophisticated equipment, etc. Height - move to higher ground or raise external (when allowed) to legal or practical maximums . . loss of convenience at times Efficiency - use the longest, highest gain antenna you can tolerate (with counterpoise when appropriate) . . can switch if carried, but again convenience considerations apply Polarization - keep all antennas vertical (generally) Power - use radios which allow most power, when that power is needed for communications (again within legal limits for band) The FCC limits frequencies and power for those who won't learn and observe basics, so generally the bubble pack stuff keeps the average consumer out of trouble and from interfering with the other things RF can harm. Personally, without doing a GMRS repeater I'm not sure it matters a lot unless you get spendy on equipment and at that point ham just makes more sense, to me. |
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Was looking at this radio as it seems to have the MURS frequency covered, and can be adjusted down into the MURS required wattage.
That's a UHF radio, MURS is VHF: Multi-Use Radio Service I believe that radio also comes in VHF . .as others pointed out and you noticed . . but with power limited you're back to the same problem. The new 900 mhz options look good for what bubble packs are. Perhaps too new to see the technology in better gear? For any real distance you have 4 primary variables . . antenna height, antenna efficiency, antenna polarization, and power . . .there are others, but these are the basics for a group that isn't going to learn code, use sophisticated equipment, etc. Height - move to higher ground or raise external (when allowed) to legal or practical maximums . . loss of convenience at times Efficiency - use the longest, highest gain antenna you can tolerate (with counterpoise when appropriate) . . can switch if carried, but again convenience considerations apply Polarization - keep all antennas vertical (generally) Power - use radios which allow most power, when that power is needed for communications (again within legal limits for band) The FCC limits frequencies and power for those who won't learn and observe basics, so generally the bubble pack stuff keeps the average consumer out of trouble and from interfering with the other things RF can harm. Personally, without doing a GMRS repeater I'm not sure it matters a lot unless you get spendy on equipment and at that point ham just makes more sense, to me. I thought the MURS radios were able to do up to 2W? From what I've been able to find online that seemed like it was better power output than the average FRS/GMRS radio, and that the VHF signal is capable of traveling further than a CB handheld that might be using up to 4W. That's just what I understood from what I read, I could very well be wrong, which is why I'm here asking the people who really know their shit. |
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I couldn't seem to find any "real" gmrs radios, at least any that were advertised as gmrs only. I found a cobra unit on amazon that was marine vhf+gmrs, but I'd rather not have the marine portion of that. They won't be listed as GMRS. Look for commercial grade radios that cover between 460-470mhz and have them programmed for GMRS. These are the same radios that police, fire, EMS, etc use. There are some real deals to be had on used ones right now. Here is a listing for 2 HT1000's at a good price, and they will program. You can find chargers cheap on Ebay and there you go. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Motorola-HT-1000-UHF-Radios-/300677538979?pt=2_Way_Radios_FRS&hash=item4601c724a3#ht_500wt_1361 These GP380s are great little radios, and come with the programming cable and software: http://www.ebay.com/itm/255-Channel-Motorola-GP380-UHF-403-470-Mhz-4W-2-Way-Radio-Accessorie-/350494249302?pt=2_Way_Radios_FRS&hash=item519b15d156#ht_2744wt_1344 They are a good choice because they also will do 440 ham, so if you get your ham license it will do both. But replace that crappy stubby antenna with a longer one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/10x-UHF-Antenna-for-motorola-GP300-GP320-GP330-GP340-GP360-GP380-HT750-CP200-/140714584004?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20c33e27c4#ht_2565wt_1110 Any of these will be far more rugged than any of the other choices you are looking at. |
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I couldn't seem to find any "real" gmrs radios, at least any that were advertised as gmrs only. I found a cobra unit on amazon that was marine vhf+gmrs, but I'd rather not have the marine portion of that. They won't be listed as GMRS. Look for commercial grade radios that cover between 460-470mhz and have them programmed for GMRS. These are the same radios that police, fire, EMS, etc use. There are some real deals to be had on used ones right now. Here is a listing for 2 HT1000's at a good price, and they will program. You can find chargers cheap on Ebay and there you go. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Motorola-HT-1000-UHF-Radios-/300677538979?pt=2_Way_Radios_FRS&hash=item4601c724a3#ht_500wt_1361 <snip> I like /\/\ Jedis: 
Far less money in this than my VX-7, and about half of that was the MTX9000 and MT2000. All 137-174 (ETA MTX is 902-928). I also run Maxtrac 100 and 300 radios, which also broke the bank at about $30 ea. |
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From looking at that pic most of those seem to be HT-1000 models. I looked up the specs on that and it appears that these could be programmed for MURS or GMRS, am I correct? It looks like I would need a cable, and a DOS app to program the radio.
Now would these be "type accepted" legal? What could I figure on cost of picking these up? Looks like I'd be forced to buy used, which I don't really like to do with electronics, so is there anything to expect? |
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Was looking at this radio as it seems to have the MURS frequency covered, and can be adjusted down into the MURS required wattage.
That's a UHF radio, MURS is VHF: Multi-Use Radio Service I believe that radio also comes in VHF . .as others pointed out and you noticed . . but with power limited you're back to the same problem. The new 900 mhz options look good for what bubble packs are. Perhaps too new to see the technology in better gear? For any real distance you have 4 primary variables . . antenna height, antenna efficiency, antenna polarization, and power . . .there are others, but these are the basics for a group that isn't going to learn code, use sophisticated equipment, etc. Height - move to higher ground or raise external (when allowed) to legal or practical maximums . . loss of convenience at times Efficiency - use the longest, highest gain antenna you can tolerate (with counterpoise when appropriate) . . can switch if carried, but again convenience considerations apply Polarization - keep all antennas vertical (generally) Power - use radios which allow most power, when that power is needed for communications (again within legal limits for band) The FCC limits frequencies and power for those who won't learn and observe basics, so generally the bubble pack stuff keeps the average consumer out of trouble and from interfering with the other things RF can harm. Personally, without doing a GMRS repeater I'm not sure it matters a lot unless you get spendy on equipment and at that point ham just makes more sense, to me. I thought the MURS radios were able to do up to 2W? From what I've been able to find online that seemed like it was better power output than the average FRS/GMRS radio, and that the VHF signal is capable of traveling further than a CB handheld that might be using up to 4W. That's just what I understood from what I read, I could very well be wrong, which is why I'm here asking the people who really know their shit. Good way to learn is to ask. I've got some *old* bubble pack GMRS that are 2w (FRS is 0.5w on these). Better GMRS radios can go to 5W . . hence several have suggested those. The extra power doesn't get you a lot further, but it may be enough to be heard and understood at distance or when line of sight is compromised. The antenna height is a lot more valuable if you can stop and raise one that connects with your radio . . or if you can use an external on a car. Same with using higher gain antennas. If you're staying with the cheaper radios then the new band may be worth buying and testing. If you're going to mix bubble packs with better radios, then GMRS probably make more sense. You can also do better GMRS radios with better antennas and repeaters and still allow for ham, as others have explained. Or, take a day to study, test, and pass the tech exam so you can do GRMS and ham freqs. Again, the way you intend to use them should dictate ways to get more range and money you want to spend. |
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From looking at that pic most of those seem to be HT-1000 models. I looked up the specs on that and it appears that these could be programmed for MURS or GMRS, am I correct? It looks like I would need a cable, and a DOS app to program the radio. Now would these be "type accepted" legal? What could I figure on cost of picking these up? Looks like I'd be forced to buy used, which I don't really like to do with electronics, so is there anything to expect? Most pictured are 16ch HT1000s in VHF- some DTMF capable, some not. You'll want these for MURs or UHF high for GMRS. Unless you really want to get into this as a hobby, steer clear of the old motos. Many are sold on ebay as "untested" meaning there is a good chance they have been bricked through bad programming. Most will come with bad NICD batteries. Luckily new 1800mah packs are about $20. Otherwise, they will last forever and easily outperform consumer grade gear. New, these were very expensive and trusted by LE/Fire... To program HT1000s, MT/MTX, Sabers, Radios, etc., you need a computer that runs real DOS ( not the in-windows DOS) and has a real 9-pin RS232 male serial port. USB dongles and PC card serial adapters will not work in dos. After that, you need the actual software, which Motorola does not sell and does not give away. Provided you already have a computer with the serial port needed, you can get around the dos requirement by downloading a Win95 boot disk image, getting an ISO editor, and adding the Motorola RSS (Radio Service Software) to the disk image, and then burning it to a boot disk. Point your BIOS at the boot disk. Boot the computer from the win95 boot disk as it includes real DOS and will now boot in DOS for the windows install. Just type the .EXE command line for the for your RSS and you are in business. Of course, you can't save radio codeplug data to clone additional radios since you don't have a floppy drive.... You'll also need either a Motorola RIB (radio interface box) or a knockoff ribless cable from ebay that may or may not work. If you mess up while the radio is reading/writing or do this the wrong way, like in windows, you will probably corrupt the radio codeplug and brick the radio until you can flash a new codeplug into it. Newer radios use a windows based CPS- I think anything newer than an MTS series. You'll spend more than $30 a radio, but it will be worth it unless you want to go through the above. |
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That sounds like a royal pain in the ass...
I mean who has a computer with real DOS?
You're right though, I'm probably better off getting something else than those. I saw some pretty low priced ones on ebay, but not knowing anything about them I didn't know if they'd be any good. I figured if they're that cheap maybe I'd pick up a handful to hand out on trips. |
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I just ran some more numbers. I think the results are interesting.
Let's start with a FRS handheld: 500 mW (0.5 watts) is 27 dBm. The free space path loss for our mythical 2 mile clear shot is 96 dB. So we have -69 dBm at the other end. Then a GMRS handheld: 5000 mW (5 watts) is 37 dBm. The free space path loss for our mythical 2 mile clear shot is 96 dB. So we have -59 dBm at the other end. Finally a MURS handheld: 2000 mW (2 watts) is 33 dBm. The free space path loss for our mythical 2 mile clear shot is 86 dB. So we have -53 dBm at the other end. So the received signal from the 2 watt MURS handheld is 6 dB (4X) greater than the 5 watt GMRS handheld at 2 miles. I certainly wasn't expecting that. |
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I just ran some more numbers. I think the results are interesting. Let's start with a FRS handheld: 500 mW (0.5 watts) is 27 dBm. The free space path loss for our mythical 2 mile clear shot is 96 dB. So we have -69 dBm at the other end. Then a GMRS handheld: 5000 mW (5 watts) is 37 dBm. The free space path loss for our mythical 2 mile clear shot is 96 dB. So we have -59 dBm at the other end. Finally a MURS handheld: 2000 mW (2 watts) is 33 dBm. The free space path loss for our mythical 2 mile clear shot is 86 dB. So we have -53 dBm at the other end. So the received signal from the 2 watt MURS handheld is 6 dB (4X) greater than the 5 watt GMRS handheld at 2 miles. I certainly wasn't expecting that. Now adjust for the fact that your UHF HT antenna is going to be more efficient than your VHF HT antenna... |
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From looking at that pic most of those seem to be HT-1000 models. I looked up the specs on that and it appears that these could be programmed for MURS or GMRS, am I correct? It looks like I would need a cable, and a DOS app to program the radio. Now would these be "type accepted" legal? What could I figure on cost of picking these up? Looks like I'd be forced to buy used, which I don't really like to do with electronics, so is there anything to expect? Most pictured are 16ch HT1000s in VHF- some DTMF capable, some not. You'll want these for MURs or UHF high for GMRS. Unless you really want to get into this as a hobby, steer clear of the old motos. Many are sold on ebay as "untested" meaning there is a good chance they have been bricked through bad programming. Most will come with bad NICD batteries. Luckily new 1800mah packs are about $20. Otherwise, they will last forever and easily outperform consumer grade gear. New, these were very expensive and trusted by LE/Fire... To program HT1000s, MT/MTX, Sabers, Radios, etc., you need a computer that runs real DOS ( not the in-windows DOS) and has a real 9-pin RS232 male serial port. USB dongles and PC card serial adapters will not work in dos. After that, you need the actual software, which Motorola does not sell and does not give away. Provided you already have a computer with the serial port needed, you can get around the dos requirement by downloading a Win95 boot disk image, getting an ISO editor, and adding the Motorola RSS (Radio Service Software) to the disk image, and then burning it to a boot disk. Point your BIOS at the boot disk. Boot the computer from the win95 boot disk as it includes real DOS and will now boot in DOS for the windows install. Just type the .EXE command line for the for your RSS and you are in business. Of course, you can't save radio codeplug data to clone additional radios since you don't have a floppy drive.... You'll also need either a Motorola RIB (radio interface box) or a knockoff ribless cable from ebay that may or may not work. If you mess up while the radio is reading/writing or do this the wrong way, like in windows, you will probably corrupt the radio codeplug and brick the radio until you can flash a new codeplug into it. Newer radios use a windows based CPS- I think anything newer than an MTS series. You'll spend more than $30 a radio, but it will be worth it unless you want to go through the above. The programming is why I suggested that he buy from an ebay seller offering programming as part of the sale- they are ready to go when received. Most are being sold by 2 way shops that are getting them in when they upgrade customers for narrowband requirements, For his use once they are programmed for GMRS there shouldn't be any need for further programming. |
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Now adjust for the fact that your UHF HT antenna is going to be more efficient than your VHF HT antenna...
Not necessarily. But that will often be the case since wavelengths are shorter at UHF. The free space path loss is higher at UHF. Foliage loss is also higher at UHF. All other things being equal, MURS / 2 meters should do better than GMRS / 70 centimeters outdoors. |
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Now adjust for the fact that your UHF HT antenna is going to be more efficient than your VHF HT antenna...
Not necessarily. But that will often be the case since wavelengths are shorter at UHF. The free space path loss is higher at UHF. Foliage loss is also higher at UHF. All other things being equal, MURS / 2 meters should do better than GMRS / 70 centimeters outdoors. But are all other things equal? Can both go up to 50w, use repeaters, transmit from airplane, etc. Optimal configurations with the benefits and cost to achieve are important considerations that outweigh the equal scenario, IMO. |
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But are all other things equal? Can both go up to 50w
I thought Maverick52 was interested in handhelds? use repeaters
Are there repeaters where he intends to use these radios? Is he interested in setting one up? transmit from airplane, etc.
I haven't seen him mention that use case. Optimal configurations with the benefits and cost to achieve are important considerations that outweigh the equal scenario, IMO.
Are his family and friends willing to get amateur or GMRS licenses? If not, it comes down to a choice between MURS and FRS. If those are the choices, MURS is going to work better. |
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Now adjust for the fact that your UHF HT antenna is going to be more efficient than your VHF HT antenna...
Not necessarily. But that will often be the case since wavelengths are shorter at UHF. The free space path loss is higher at UHF. Foliage loss is also higher at UHF. All other things being equal, MURS / 2 meters should do better than GMRS / 70 centimeters outdoors. We did an experiment here, about 1.25 miles apart with some rolling hills between us. Dual band HT's. With the stock antenna, the UHF side came in a bit worse, but not enough to be significant. With a longer antenna that was a half wave on 440, we noticed it was significantly better than VHF. That is why I say GMRS with a full size antenna that is 1/4 wave or better. 5w+ better antenna has worked very well for me as opposed to 2w with a compromise antenna. |
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But are all other things equal? Can both go up to 50w
I thought Maverick52 was interested in handhelds? And with how to extend the distance they work at. Quoted:
use repeaters
Are there repeaters where he intends to use these radios? Is he interested in setting one up? Depends on how much does he want to extend the distance. Which is first based on knowing his options. Quoted:
transmit from airplane, etc.
I haven't seen him mention that use case. IIRC, he expressed future flexibility . . but who ever gives every detail . . we help by giving the options and limits and then they decide on which are worthwhile. Quoted:
Optimal configurations with the benefits and cost to achieve are important considerations that outweigh the equal scenario, IMO.
Are his family and friends willing to get amateur or GMRS licenses? If not, it comes down to a choice between MURS and FRS. If those are the choices, MURS is going to work better. Depends on whether the cost difference is worthwhile . . which goes back to to what other options make more money worthwhile. Otherwise, the ARFCOM tradition of choosing both applies. |