[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Hand held question. (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 10/29/2007 11:54:17 PM EDT
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I'm thinking of getting a Yaesu Vertex VX-170 as my first radio. Any opinions? Thanks in advance! |
| One of my primary concerns with HT's is the availability of AA battery packs. The 170 has, as far as I can tell, available aftermarket 6xAA (9 volt) packs, which passes that test. I'm not otherwise familiar with it, or with what it can be modded to do. If you like the features and price, and eham's reviews agree, I'd say go for it. |
great radio, great price. impossible to go wrong on this rig. losdos.dyndns.org:8080/public/ham/yaesu-vx170/pics/ ar-jedi |
| I don't have a VX-170 but I do have a FT-60R and if I had it to do over I would have bought the VX-170. (Actually two of them) It all depends on how much 440 traffic there is in your area. There is none here. I could have bought two 170's for less than one FT-60R and an extra battery costs. YMMV |
| That's a good point. There may not be a lot of 440 traffic in your local area. However, I'm of the mindset that it's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Having a dual-band also gives the added flexibility of being able to crossband if he gets a capable radio (like the 8800) in the future. |
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Gibby, we have lots of 440 stuff out this way, I would at the least get a duel bander.. Even if you have to wait a little longer, I think it would be worth it.. Im looking at the FT60R, and the VX-3R right now in a catalog that would not be that much more... Do what you have to do, but I sure would hate to see you handicapped over $50.00 +/- |
The VX3R is not a real radio, but a low power HT only. It might be good for certain users, but I'd not buy one. I like the FT60, simple, cheap enough, good radio. |
Then the FT60 sounds like a good deal to me. Still, I think the 170 will be just fine, if that is all you can swing at the moment. |
The 6r is the same way. I know AR-jedi loves his, but he does have several abilities to run external power with his to overcome the low power if needed. |
I hope you don't mind me butting in... I'm interested in getting started and want a portable unit and then to get a license. If a person were to get the FT-60R, what else is needed besides the starter pack (unit, manual, antenna, 1400mAh battery pack, and charger)? Can such units be recharged via some off-grid power source, such as solar? |
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If I wanted to solar charge a FT60, I would just stick with the AA pack and recharge the AAs in a seperate charger hooked to a solar cell. Well actually, I would run that off of a larger battery system to keep any fluctuations in the voltage from any issues recharging the batteries, but I'm not a solar expert. So solar to big battery (deep cycle), then to AA charger (say a smaller maha that runs on 12v) then use those batteries in the AA case for the radio. |
See, if he'd posted that in the HTF someone would have said "useless without pics..." But I need to show LSW this, she still doesn't really believe I can get into this without having to take out a third mortgage--she's probably thinking I want to build a Texas Tower in the backyard... |
click here ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=10&f=22&t=604477 and scroll down to the sections titled "buying a radio (VHF/UHF-centric)" "suggestions on radios and accessories" "notes on operating from batteries during SHTF" ar-jedi |
I gotta tell you. I got mine last week. I could have sworn they said a batter would RX 8 hours. I am getting 2 days, RX only. Depends on how much I TX how long they last. I just changed batteries, and I put the one I just took out in yesterday am. I wouldnt mind getting the AA case, but I am seeing the DC12v with quick charger as the best charging option, short of shtf. If there were a solar panel option, I would buy it though. Just 'cause. "TX on 2AA batteries 300 &50 mW"- Operating Manual. |
imho, a waste.
for about seven minutes. they left out that part. 
get an E-DC6 power cable. put andersen powerpoles on the blunt end. then get the following and terminate the same way: - auto cig lighter adapter. - 8xAA NiMh/NiCd/Alky holder. - a 6ah/7.2ah/12ah gel cell/AGM. if SHTF, you should be able to power your radio short term (AA batts), med term (gel cell/AGM), and long term (a car battery will last three months of twice daily radio use without needing recharging). ar-jedi    |
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Now that's a great setup, Jedi. I have very similar components laying around somewhere, but I have yet to cobble them together, and may never, as I'm not that industrious. Edit: Actually, I did cobble together the simpler one, which is the powerpole-to-VX compatible adapter, which is what I use to recharge my VX off of any 12 volt battery, but that other one is the tricky part. How'd you get those tiny wires to make solid contacts in the AA case-side powerpole? Speaking of AA ham radio, my other HT is an Icom T-7H, which is a well modding dual bander with a nice interface, and low cost, that easily fits 6xAA packs. That's a nice radio for newbies. The VX-7R is approximately 50 times more powerful in its RX capabilities, but the case design and power requirements do make emergency power for TX damned tricky. It can RX fine off of the AA's, which makes it my nicest battery powered radio, but 300 mw is a mouse fart in VHF. I think it should be mentioned, to the newbies in this thread, that a better way to start in ham radio is with a mobile rig in your vehicle. The cost is somewhat higher, as you have to get a separate antenna, mount it, and run cable to it, and power to the battery. The rigs are a tad bit more expensive than HT's, too, in general. But mobile systems are much more powerful, and many hams spend most of their time on their air chatting from their vehicles. |
 Dude, you forgot more about Ham than I will ever know. That was so thorough and (double bonus points) even in plain english where I could understand it!   Thanks!  |
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For those of you scratching your heads over the math in this thread, it's really all very simple. A radio uses a certain amount of power. In the specifications, which you can usually find online, you'll see the current drain on receive (RX), standby if available, transmit (TX), and sometimes several power levels of transmission. For instance, for the VX-7R: www.universal-radio.com/catalog/ht/0777spec.html It shows around 1.7 amps for high power VHF transmitting. You'll find that any battery has a capacity rating measured in amp-hours or milli-amp-hours (ah or mah). For instance, hit the back button on that web page to see their main page for the VX-7R, and you'll see an accessory battery listed as: Lithium Ion Battery Pack 7V 1400 mAh I think that's the factory one, or a very good copy of it. That gives us a capacity of 1.4 amp hours. I can't remember offhand if that goes by the supply voltage or the operating voltage, or if it matters, so let's just say that the drain unit is basically the same as the capacity affecting unit. So, at high power, we drain 1.7 amps when transmitting, from a battery with a capacity of 1.4 amp hours. 1.4/1.7 = (hypothetically) 0.82 hours, or about 49 minutes before the battery dies. Realistically, you'd probably burn out the radio if you left the mic keyed that long, and the radio for some reason decided not to break the tx on its own (which most of them typically do, as ham operators are required to break transmission periodically to allow other parties to get through if need be, and to give everyone else a rest from their boring-ass lumbago grumbling). So, we know that, with a fully charged battery, optimally, we have maybe 49 minutes of high power transmitting to chew our way through. But, of course, the radio also operates in receive or standby mode when we're not transmitting and it's still on. The VX has some funky options with it, but in general cases you're looking at leaving it in standby mode (waiting for something to break squelch), which the specs show as a mere 28 mA in power saver mode (which only checks for traffic so many times a second, instead of constantly). In standby, receiving no signals that break squelch, the radio could sit there for 1400/28 = (theoretically) 50 hours. In receive mode, signals breaking squelch, it figures it as 200 mA, and 1400/200 = 7 hours. So, basically, if you just did one thing, you could: Stay in standby mode for 50 hours Receive a signal for 7 hours or Transmit at high power for 50 minutes Now we're getting a much better idea of how long we can expect our little buddy to keep working. But wait! One more little tidbit is that the radio draws 200 micro-amps when it's OFF, or 0.2 milli-amps. 1400/.2 = 7000 hours, which means that, setting aside a lithium ion rechargeable battery's own inclination to self discharge over time, we also have a 291 day cap (about ten months) on the battery lifespan. So, say I leave that sucker fully charged, in that pack, in my back closet for five months without touching it. Then something happens and I need it. Now the battery's half dead, and I'm left with, hypothetically, 25 minutes of high power transmitting at my disposal, assuming I waste no time on listening. After that, the battery's completely dead, and I'm left with 300 mw transmitting through AA's. An alkaline AA can sit on a shelf for ten years and still have most of the capacity it was born with. That clever li-ion battery in the VX, that costs $65, or about 13 times as much as the equivalent power in AA's, can only sit in the radio for four months before needing to be recharged. Of course, it's nice that it can be recharged, but if you're in a power outage, you might, at this point, be pretty well screwed. This should clarify why those of us who ever think about SHTF in the same context as amateur radio get chills when we see a radio that can't accept sufficient AA's for high power TX. So, to Jedi's soldered up battery pack there, I say (Edited to correct for terrible math and use of units; all credit to ar-jedi and the rest who helped fix it up) |
check your math above. hint: (battery capacity in Ah)/(current draw in A) = operating time in h.
check your math above.  hint: pico != 10^-3. ar-jedi ETA re:
battery capacity is a non-linear function of applied load. you will get somewhat less time on TX than your math suggests above, and greater time on RX and standby than your math suggests (far greater on standby in fact). battery capacity of these "sizes" of batteries is spec'd at what is called the "20hr rate" -- that is, what the current draw would need to be to discharge the battery in 20hrs. below that current draw, operating time will be longer, and vice versa. |
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One little point that has been briefly mentioned is the idea that for someone's first radio, an HT MIGHT not be the best way to go. Just to give you an example of why I say this: I live in the city of Las Vegas. Granted, I live right on one edge of town but I can see the strip from my neighborhood. I am running a Kenwood HT with 5 watts out. Using my HT, in the house, with the factory rubber duck antenna, I can't get into the repeater that I want to use. In years past, I tried to operate mobile with an HT. I can save you the trouble; it didn't work for crap. Even with an external antenna, 5 watts is only good if you have a very good shot at the repeater. This has been proven to me in other locations besides Las Vegas. When I got my first HT: an Icom IC2AT back in the early 80s I was living in Ohio. I got about the same results as what I mention here. HTs are a lot of fun. They are certainly one of the coolest gadgets in ham radio. And the price is right for a lot of them: I can't believe how cheap you can get into ham radio these days. BUT, if I was going to be limited to one radio that was going to be dependable and work what I want to work, when I want to work it, it wouldn't be an HT. The point of this is just to give some new guys some realistic expectations of what you can do with an HT. I am not trying to discourage anyone from buying one. Pretty much every ham alive has at least one including me. As far as SHTF or operating during a power outage: the car battery has always seemed to me to be the best option. Using a VHF/UHF HT, the thing would last damn near forever. And, if it ran down you can start the car and charge it. And, you can charge your battery on the car battery for portable operation. I realize this doesn't solve all your problems andhaving more options is always better. The three pronged approach mentioned above is a very good one. Assuming you trust an HT for critical communications. But, the important thing is to have fun. Give me a call on IRLP, Western Reflector. IM for Callsign. |
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I think the decision about an HT vs mobile for the first radio depends a lot on your local area. I went the HT route and never had any problems at all. I used a mag mount on the roof of my truck and consistently got excellent reports. Nobody thought I was using a HT. I did this for a good while before I decided which mobile to get. Now granted, 5W is only 5W. When the repeaters go down you're pretty much screwed. You won't have very good range (although this might be improved if you can get an antenna up high). I think before making the decision it'd be wise to talk to members of a local club and see what type of repeater coverage there is. If there're just one or two repeaters covering a large area the mobile might be the best bet. However, if there are a number of remote stations around town you may do fine with the HT. |
| Guess in a way I'm pretty lucky. I don't have a radio yet, but all my friends from my home town forum have both mobile and HT radios. I can let them test which is best for our area for me. I plan on getting a 8800 in the future, but with the HT I should be able to reach control ops in my local area. |
Gibby, from your house, you are a stones throw to the Pilchuck Repeater. My old Radio Shack HTX-245 running only 700mW DC 4.5V ( It can be bumped up to 1.5W if you use the 6 V power supply)can hit the repeater from the trestle in everett easy with the rubber duck.... I would not tell you to go out and buy this unit, but Im just saying it can be done... We are repeater thick out our way. 
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Gibby, I made contact with Getnlwr on Pilchuck last night. Both of us at home using HT's, his with a small mag mount and mine with good quality HT antenna. Pleasant surprise for me since I'm shaded by terrain. Later on he hit Tiger Mtn and was coming in very clear. The only problem you'll have is finding freq's not already occupied by a repeater 
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I just talked with Getnlower on Pilchuck... worked just fine. |
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check your math, above.  hint: micro != 10^-3. ar-jedi |
Dear god, you're right, although I did convert the units correctly even if I called them the wrong things. 1.4 amp hour battery is a 1400 milli-amp battery, and 200 micro-amps are .2 milli-amps, so I was right up to that point. 2800, though, I'm an idiot. Started thinking 0.5 somewhere. Yes, of course, it's 7000 hours, which I should have known because I've left my battery that long before and it's been okay. To clarify my posts so far, I suck at math! (This is why I keep pencil and paper in my BOB's) |
R-32, You and I are Generals, so with three Technician WA HTF members, we would have a full house. That beats a one of a kind any day!
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