Quoted:
It kinked even when you sleeved it in the PVC?

I use supports for my bends like the pictured below.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41IcGd2XGOL._SY400_.jpg

Oh, and happy birthday!

Quoted:


you can't run power and low voltage wiring (e.g. LAN cabling) in the same conduit because of the national electrical code (NEC).  they don't care if you have crosstalk onto your data cables, they simply don't want low voltage stuff which may be exposed somewhere in the house (like on a punchdown panel) to inadvertently come in contact with AC wiring present in the same conduit.  so, separate conduit runs for power and data/alarms/etc.    

now on to the crosstalk/noise issue, i have never had a problem with running LAN cabling near power.  this post comes to you via LAN cabling which runs some 50 feet parallel with AC power, in the next conduit over, same trench.

ar-jedi

Quoted:


n.b.
you should sleeve that PEX with PVC where it passes through/under the foundation wall.

ps
also, you have a modest collection of black walnuts.  
i have AT LEAST 10,000 if you need more.
this has been a banner fucking year for them.
i am either doing something right, or something wrong.

ar-jedi

Quoted:
You can get flow guard gold in coils and there's a special sleeve for coming through a slab.

Quoted:
I would sleeve the supply continuously from about 2' outside of the foundation wall to above the slab at the interior.

Why?



It looks like you're forced to use a 2" sleeve ( that's tight ) because the footing guys appear to have used a piece of 3" PVC under the footing???  

Not necessarily.  

I gave them that pipe they put under the fitting.  Because I had it in the garage, it was otherwise useless, and I didn't know better.

I can replace the 2" pipe.  It's still lying there since it's been raining for a week.

BUT...I'm now considering running a  much longer piece of PEX through the ingress, because I'm going....a line from the stub-out inside all the way to the shutoff in the yard makes sense to me.

I've done a little reading, but not enough.   And reading never subs for actual experience with a product.  But hey....there's always a first time.

If you use two 45 bends spaced about 6~ 8" apart to make a long sweep 90 bend the Pex shouldn't crimp or  fight you... too much.   Bevel/ream the interior of the PVC  pipe ( not the fittings ) so the shoulder of the PVC pipe doesn't have a ledge to snag the PEX when you try to shove it through the PVC sleeve.  You may need to use a pull string too.

I'm a little lost.  Are you saying I should use PVC from the inside of the foundation wall all the way to where I stub it out?

The disadvantage is that the PEX will be further inside the interior of the wall.  If you try to hit the sink base then it's probably not a big deal except for storage space in the cabinet.

The big advantage is that the PEX is protected and can be replaced easily if necessary.

i don't see any such thing as "easy" replacement of PEX.  This stuff resists all manipulation.  If I try to sleeve it all the way from the ingress (probably three feet lower than the stub out.  Maybe 4 feet) I'll probably have 10-15 street elbows to make those slow bends to get "uphill.  This seems kind of stupid, and since it took two people to feed the PEX through that one simple bend, the more complex Double-S Curve I'd have to make looks damn near impossible.  But maybe I"m missing something.

ETA: Happy birthday!

Quoted:


NM conduit.

NM = non-metallic = PVC = plastic.  
bell ends, solvent weld.

the pros would say "raceway", not "conduit".

ps
National Electrical Code 2011
ARTICLE 300 Wiring Methods
I. General Requirements

300.5 Underground Installations.
(B) Wet Locations. The interior of enclosures or raceways installed underground shall be considered to be a wet location. Insulated conductors and cables installed in these enclosures or raceways in underground installations shall be listed for use in wet locations and shall comply with 310.10(C). Any connections or splices in an underground installation shall be approved for wet locations.

hence, the wire (not multi-conductor cable, but individual lengths of wire) that you pull through the conduit must be rated for wet locations.  typically that means it will be marked THWN or THWN-2 on the insulating cover.  some, but not all, of the wire on spools at HD and Lowes are dual THHN / THWN marked.  THHN is indoor only, you must use wire marked THWN or TWHN-2 in underground conduit.   ps: the reason that underground conduit is classed as a "wet location" is because ALL underground conduit eventually fills with water.  it has nothing to do with the quality of your solvent welded joints, and everything to do with physics.

ar-jedi

meanwhile, over at my sister's house...

http://ziva.losdos.dyndns.org/gallery2/d/47986-2/IMG_1004.jpg

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Quoted:
Before I go further, clarify for me.  Is the pipe that the concrete guys used at the base of the footing 2", 3" or 4"?   I may have made an assumption...

Quoted:
Turn your speakers down

This method is helpful when we need to tweak the angles that manufactured fittings can't provide.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QqVm7wsqXA

Quoted:
KwS,
got your IM, i thought i'd answer here since others might be interested, but at the same time i'm hesitant to clutter up your thread.  

"Begin at the beginning," the King said, very gravely, "and go on till you come to the end: then stop."

for any outbuilding there are a variety of utilities which may be routed in.
these might include power, water, networking, etc.
and, as you have already plumbed, for any water going in you need to handle the reverse direction as well.

in my case the outbuilding is a 1930's carriage house converted to a garage with a "bonus room" upstairs.
when i arrived on the scene it had only power and cold water supplied to it, and the latter was leaking underground due to the use of cast iron pipe and insufficient burial depth.
meanwhile, there was actually no grey or black water sewer piping anywhere to be found.  

trouble here in the northeast starts because building code for a water supply is 42" below grade.  
in practice, anything less than about 36" and you are risking not having water in February and a leaking pipe in March.

hence a supply pipe run between the house and the garage has to be pretty deep, and it has to come into the structure through the foundation and into a space which will not drop below 32'F.

meanwhile i also needed a sewer route back out, because i wanted more than just a sink upstairs in the loft room.

all of this utility work was intermingled with the pouring of a new floor area.  the way the carriage house was constructed, there was only flatwork (a slab) under 2/3'rds of the building.   the remaining 1/3 had a plank wood floor laid on 2x6 (nominal) joists which in turn supported was by hope and dreams.  i've left out the parts which had me thinking of an "accidental" structural fire --  namely, about 87 million termites.  luckily, they had drilled horizontally across the plank flooring, compromising the floor joists but leaving the studs and such in pretty good shape.

so the entirety of the wooden floor mess went into a dumpster.  the Termite Terminator man came and did his thing, with extreme prejudice.  

in the middle of the first floor of this structure, which by your mind should mean "near the back of the garage", is a mechanical room.  it houses a small natural gas furnace and that's about it.  this mechanical room was a natural place to terminate all of the piping and new wiring coming into the building.   it's tight, as it is wedged somewhat under the stairs that take you up to the loft.

there is a separate, existing 100A power feed in dedicated conduit.  i did not have to touch this, nor did i need to.  so, from the prospective of power, i was done before i started.  

but, i needed water in, conduit in, and sewer out.   the three 1" dia pieces of conduit would carry a mix of a) FIOS [coax], b) CAT6 LAN/alarm, and c) spare tbd.  

the water, the water.  i needed water, true.  i also wanted hot water.  did i mention the shower upstairs?  

so the initial plan was to bring a cold supply, and then heat it up.  there are two good ways to do that: a) natural gas fired water heater, or b) on-demand electric water heater heater (Bosch etc).  the former would require a new vent and a new hole in the roof (which was two stories up).   the latter requires a lot of current from the electrical panel in the house, and it's a ~40 foot run.  

neither of the above solutions are all that inexpensive. the more i thought about it, the more i thought that it wasn't *that* far...  ~40 feet between the house water heater and the garage mechanical room, and then another 10-12' feet up to the shower.  if my carriage house overnight guests could wait 30-45 seconds for hot water i could save at least $1000 in capital expenditures and in the case of the water heater solution i would not be keeping 30(?) gallons of water hot 24x7.  

i researched insulated PEX just for the hell of it.  people with outdoor wood-fired boilers use it all the time.  it's not cheap, in fact it's like $12/ft.   i have a brother in law who is a master plumber. i tell him my idea about running hot water from the house.  he says it will work.   i tell him there is this expensive insulated PEX.  he says that's overkill.  he says what he would do it put 1-1/2" black poly pipe in end-to-end as a "conduit", and then reeve 3/4" PEX through it.  the air gap will provide some insulation, and well if anything goes wrong you can always pull the PEX back out and put a new length in.   i liked this plan then and i like it even more now.

so, coming from the house to the garage/carriage house, in vertical order from shallowest to deepest,

grass
topsoil
backfill
red marker tape
sand
3 x 1" conduit
sand
4" sewer line
sand
2 x 1-1/2" black poly 200psi pipe  (this is down 42")
sand
trench bottom

each of these passes through the foundation wall well below grade.  in the carriage house, it comes in horizontally where the wooden floor was taken out, and was supported for the pour.  the concrete work finished, the studs for the mechanical room were stood up and the pipes magically appear stubbed up in the right place.  the furnace "latent heat" keeps the mechanical room toasty during the winter months (the garage area itself is unheated but insulated; only the living area upstairs is heated.)

a couple of notes for you:
-- aesthetics-wise, bringing the electrical conduit in through the foundation wall and up & into the structure via conduit looks much better than using conduit and an LB on an exterior wall.  this is one reason i suggested putting NM conduit in your slab.
-- always run spare conduit in a trench.  conduit is so cheap, while digging is expensive and hard and messy.  run spare conduit.  it's $2.50 per 10 feet!  even if you leave the ends sealed and buried near the house, it's always there waiting for you.  
-- if the house is reasonably close, you don't need a separate water heater in the outbuilding.  you may have to wait an extra 10 seconds for hot water.  you could also plumb a hot water circulation loop, but IMHO that is gross overkill.  
-- when you penetrate the foundation you must sleeve the penetration with a length of schedule 80 PVC.  mortar the sleeve in place, put the conduit, pipe, or whatever through, and then use plenty of silicone caulk on both ends.  

i could go on and on but only you know what you want/need/etc.

ps
i will feel better if you give me credit for a) saving the old dutch door, and b) swapping the hinge side.  
i could not save the old green door, however.  

ar-jedi

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ps

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Quoted:
That was not a street elbow, it is a drainage line elbow. Not rated for pressure, small weld surface.

Quoted:
Turn your speakers down

This method is helpful when we need to tweak the angles that manufactured fittings can't provide.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QqVm7wsqXA

Quoted:
Stole this from AR-Jedi.  His 10/12/17 post on page 2.

After going to bed last night I thought this is likely a better solution for your situation.   It protects the pipe under the slab and through the foundation wall.  If the Pex does fail in the future, under the slab, it's easily replaced.  And the polyethylene ( black well pipe ) is smooth on the interior so it would be easier to fish the Pex through it.  The polyethylene needs to be in one piece, no couplings.

Open the pics.

Quoted:

this thread is still going?  



j/k


KwS, how can we help?

Quoted:


no, would not change the way i did it.  if you can, do it the same way.  
it was simple to reeve the PEX through the poly, and well, if anything goes wrong down the road...

incidentally i noticed looking at my pictures that it doesn't show that i used some duct seal to close up the ends where the PEX egresses from the poly pipe.
duct seal has a "play-doh" consistency and you just use your fingers to form into place.  you can get it at HD/Lowes or an electrical/plumbing supply house.

ar-jedi

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/1000/1b/1bf2d242-d36d-47f4-9237-29f46551bf8d_1000.jpg

Quoted:


ok moar questions/comments, since you seem to be most stuck on the electrical...

- 200A service to an outbuilding is *a lot*.  that's like a whole house plus some.  
- what is the capacity (ampacity is the term) of the service panel in the house currently?  150A?  200A?  400A?~~ 200A  We installed it (with help from a buddy who'd done this before and knew how to wrangle that cable)I thought I needed 200A  to the outbuilding because of wanting to run HVAC and a dryer (potentially) or the equivalent.  With 100A we were throwing breakers with a freaking hair dryer and coffee maker.  That just pisses me off and I don't want that.  HOWEVER I don't know that I can afford 200A cable to the outbuilding.  I haven't looked at that yet.
- how far (roughly) from the house service panel to the proposed location of the sub-panel at your new structure?  From the nearest corner of the house to the new building is probaby 80'.  From the PANEL...add 50'.  (That's about the length of our old house.  However, we could potentially use conduit and run cable in the crawlspace that 50' without having to dig.  There is not a better option, as we would be having to dodge too much stuff.  With this "running under the crawlspace" we are crossing a water line.  To get there a few feet cheaper, we are crossing both water and propane lines.  I choose only water.
- you need a trench, at least 18" deep, for running the power.  there is no other option besides overhead and you don't want that.  don't let the backhoe leave without getting your electrical trench in.  building a structure on top of your slab is going to require some sort of planning on location and routing of electrical stuff.   That hoe is too wide. I think I would rather rent a ditch witch for that, unless AFC has a more compelling option with a narrow trench.  That's the thing.  I don't want a wide trench from house to this building.  AFC's smallest hoe is at least 18" wide.  Maybe two feet.  That's what dug our footers.  Argue with me if I'm wrong, but I'm trying to save my trees, too.  The wider the ditch, the more damage it does.
- if you are heating water in the house with propane, can you do the same at the outbuilding? heating water with electricity. All we do with propane is heat the house in winter.  We will do that with a heat pump (electrical) for the outbuilding.  I ain't runnin' propane out there.  It's stupid expensive (as compared to when we bought the house) and I am not relying on that to heat anything else.)
- what does your HVAC look like?  mini-split A/C?  no A/C?  mini-split combo A/C + heat?  window A/C?  Our HVAC is a heatpac unit (which is huge and means both heat and a/c)  that is on its last legs.  I plan for a completely separate (and more efficient and hopefully SMALLER) heat pump unit for the  outbuilding.  Fortunately I'm fine with exposed ductwork throughout, so I'm not too worried about that.  However, POWERING that unit..yeah, I'm worried about that.


ps:
put your ground rods in before you pour the slab, it's a hell of a lot easier.  the info below is NOT EXHAUSTIVE to complete your wiring, but plan for the ground rods.

Jeeezus...okay I'm gonna need two days to do this and the conduit for power.  I'm truly hoping it rains buckets tonight, cuz I've got to find time for this.

get qty 2 5/8" diameter 8' copper clad rods from HD, the grounding connectors will be right next to them.  get some #6 bare or green wire.  

drive the rods in near where your electrical box will be.  ( Is this INSIDE my building? Or outside? )  you can use a hammer drill set on hammer-only.  the rods should be about 6' apart.  connect the end of the wire (What wire?) to one rod using the connector, run the wire past the other rod and connect it, and then the wire can run vertically up though the slab during the pour.  the electrical joints at the top of the rods should be coated with anti-corrosion goop, same aisle as the rods, and the nuts should be really leaned on for a good tight fit.

Okay I don''t have a clue about these electrical joints noted above in green, because apparently I've never had to know, but honestly this surprises me, since we wired our whole house to code and beyond.  We were very particular about the rules.  However, all of our "installation" was on an existing "olde" house.  and so that may make a difference as opposed to new construction.  


http://www.homedepot.com/p/ERICO-5-8-in-x-8-ft-Copper-Ground-Rod-615880UPC/202195738
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Blackburn-Ground-Rod-Clamp-5-8-in-G5-B1-30/202907599

https://i.stack.imgur.com/8rdL5.png

https://www.justanswer.com/uploads/ElectricDoctor/2009-03-29_214408_ground_rod_requirements.JPG

https://www.justanswer.com/uploads/ElectricDoctor/2009-03-29_214427_Ground_rod_Clamp_install_info.JPG

Quoted:

here is some bedtime reading for you...

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=304658

Quoted:


Use the ufer mentioned in the garage journal post.

No hammer drill required.

And take a deep breath.

Pushing back a week isn't the end of the world if you have to.

If you can't push back, post up a floor plan so we can help you.

As far as cat 5, it can be spliced if necessary but likely you just need to tweak your low voltage plan.

Go from modem to router to a switch and run dedicated cat 5 lines o the addition.

As far as power, a 100amp sub panel is likely enough power but that's just a guess.

Running a 200amp service is a big deal if you only have a 200 amp service.

I'm winging my addition as well if that makes you feel any better.

Quoted:
Ar-jedi said it, but wanted to highlight it...

The ground wire must be contiguous from the farthest ground rod through to wherever it terminates.

If you dont know where your junction/panel/meter/etc will be, leave yourself a healthy coil of extra to insure you can reach it.

Quoted:
Prices may be slightly different where you are but up here two hundred amp feeder cable is he going to run you about $4 and change per foot. In contrast 100-amp will be about a buck-fifty per foot.

You're going to need to have your two grounding rods six feet apart minimum at your outbuilding as close to your electrical box as possible. Use the proper size clamps and one piece of 4 gauge solid copper wire to connect the ground bar in your breaker panel to both rods. The breaker panel you put in your outbuilding will have to keep the ground and neutral separate as the only place your grounds and neutrals are bonded together is your main or first to distribution panel.
If you're doing the electrical connections yourself make sure you put anti oxidizing Compound on all your aluminum connections.
Keep in mind that all conductors must have two insulators which means your feeder wire that goes underground is going to have to come up and be in conduit all the way until it gets to your breaker box. 
Make sure at the ends of all electrical conduit you put just a coupler it's to prevent sharp edges from damaging the wire and is required by code at least up here.
The only way you're going to get 200 amps out to your out building is if you have the proper panel in side that has feed through lugs. But in all seriousness 100 amps is great plenty unless you're going to have an electric hot water heater all electric heat and electric dryer and electric oven and trying to run it all the same time. And actually our old house had everything electric on a hundred amp service and we never had problems blowing the main breaker.
Make sure you run at least one CAT5 cable preferably two. 

Quoted:
would it be easier and/or feasible to just have the power company run separate service to the outbuilding? independent of the house, separate meter, service directly from the pole, etc. that way you don't have to worry about where the existing house is hooked up and may be able to dodge a few other issues.