Posted: 11/20/2016 10:32:27 AM EDT
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Going into our first ND winter at our new house I am looking for a generator and transfer switch. We live on 13 acres a couple of miles outside a little town of roughly 200 people. The nearest "big" (pop. 15K) town is 35 miles away. We moved into this house in April, so we only have experience with the power situation in the summer so far. It seemed like whenever the wind blew hard during a thunderstorm the power would flicker or go off. Our service line is in the air up to the pole in the yard then buried from the pole to the house, garage and shop. I am anticipating an ice storm or two and plenty of blizzards during the winter if it is anything like normal winters from the past.
Our heat for the house is a Lennox electric/propane heat pump, split system for the main floor and 2nd floor. It is off peak electric with an electric plenum heater most of the time, and a propane furnace during "peak" times or emergency backup heat. There is a 500 gallon propane tank that I just had topped off on the summer fill program a couple of months ago and hasn't been used since. We also have a large wood burning fireplace with a blower in the living room/kitchen area on the main floor. We are on rural water, so no well pump to run. The house is pretty much all electric: water heater, stove/oven, etc. I guess the main thing would be to keep the house warm, so furnace and fireplace blowers. Have hot water and be able to cook and keep the fridge running. The deep freezes are out in the garage so I think they would be fine in winter without power for a couple of days if needed. I have been looking at portable propane generators lately just for the convenience of already having propane on site and not having to store gas or try to get to the gas station to fill cans during a blizzard. This one in particular. Champion Dual Fuel. When the propane tank was installed the previous owner ran a couple of lines up to the corner of the house/deck with shutoff valves and quick couplers for his grill and smoker. It would be convenient to roll the generator out and hook up to one of those and not have to worry about refueling. Also, any particular transfer switch setups to look at or avoid? I would like to stay around $1,000 to $1,200 total if possible. For reference. 
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For what it's worth, my dad runs a wireless internet company. From time to time a storm will take down power, so he has portable generators to take out and keep the radios running. He did a LOT of research into the different brands/models and he ended up buying the Powerhorse brand from Northern Tool. He was explaining to me that for the money they are the best he found. The windings are better, and the output is smoother, so he can run all his electronics without big surges.
One time the power went out on the equipment he had on a water tank. That particular water tank also had the radio equipment for the emergency dispatch and response. The generator they were using was running but wasn't running their radios well. He hooked their stuff into his generator and said it powered everything perfectly. Did a quick search, the one that matches your specs the closest is here: http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200664810_200664810 I bought a Generac that's not quite as big. He told me that they didn't have very good reviews or stats for the windings and power output. I haven't run it and measured the output to see how much it fluctuates yet, but I trust his opinion because I know how much time he invests in researching this stuff. |
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I bought a the 7kw Champion Dual Fuel when our 15+ year old Porter Cable blew it's oil during an outage a year or so back for $650 vs. the usual $800 list (they put them on sale every so often). Although we ran gas initially, since putting in a whole house unit, I have been running it off propane out at the off grid tractor equipment storage building. Works fine that way. The unit comes with a propane regulator & hose and a twist lock extension cord with 2 20A breakers on the end (additional to the 20A breakers on the unit itself).
You should see if an on-panel interlock is code legal in your area (it wan't in NC). That would be the easiest mechanism to install. If power blips are an issue with electronics (TV, satellite receiver, etc. ), consider a UPS. The Tripp-lites we have been using are fine with the Champion & the Honeywell/Generac whole house unit. Nick |
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Champion will serve you well, and I don't even have to recommend duel fuel, as you have already discovered it. I have either the same generator or one size bigger (I think it is one size bigger, I'd have to go look to be sure  ). It has done very well for us.Anyway, as far as a transfer switch, you can do the breaker box switch for little money. You first have to have a compatible breaker box (a box that the a kit is made for, most box manufacturers have their own kit, or there are aftermarket kits available). You need the top two slots on the right open, where you install a 240 breaker (usually 30 amp). From that breaker, you run a 240 line outside to a receptacle you install. You have a cord that goes from the 240 on the genny to the receptacle you installed feeding those two breakers. The "kit" is simply a plate that prevents the main breaker from being on at the same time as those two breakers on the top right. When power is out, you turn off the main breaker, slide up the plate, turn on the two generator breakers and you are ready for generator power. The kits cost around $100 plus wiring, so cheap. You use all your original circuits, but folks typically turn off breakers they don't need powered while on generator power, being sure to turn off anything that is resistance heating (such as electric furnaces, hot water heaters, ovens, etc.) What I am doing when I get the new panel installed. Cheap, effective, simple. |
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Quoted:
Also, any particular transfer switch setups to look at or avoid? I would like to stay around $1,000 to $1,200 total if possible. still a work-in-progress, but some good info for you... http://losdos.dyndns.org/wiki/reference:generator_oracle ar-jedi |
 what?They're the opposite of less hassle! They're an insane hassle, especially if you have other implements or a backhoe to contend with when you want to use the generator. Next is where you can park it/store it / use it... sure is easy to just start up the generator and have power vs having to locate the tractor, hook up the genset, and then contend with possibly terrible weather and re-position it in a storm, removing other implements, etc... And, most likely the tractor will burn through fuel compared to a standalone smaller genset. Just my opinion, and experience going without power for prolonged periods of time :) The less hassle the better, less fuel consumption the better. I personally use: - 2x Honda EU2000i (one for house and one for office, rarely need both at once). 1 can power my entire house minus well pump. - 1x Commercial Genset w/Honda GX390 engine. 220v for the well, and any bigger tools should I need them. Some winters we go for a month+ without power (spread out in days / weeks), and other winters it may be only a week or so. If you're going to 'plan' on going without power for weeks each winter I wuold do everything you can to make sure everything operates efficiently as possible from your hot water, heat, cooking, lights, etc... I can run my entire house on 1.4G of gas in the Honda EU2ki usually only filling it up before bed to run a little more... it's amazing how long this thing lasts powering my fridge, tv, computers, lights, etc... :) |
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Just a follow-up on the 7KW dual fuel Champion. When we were using it, it could handle pretty much the whole house (~2700 sq.ft.) with the exception of the 4.5 ton heat pump. Among the usual items, we run 2 refrigerators, one fridge/freezer combo and one upright freezer. The only things left turned off were the heat pump and electric range/oven. The well pump got turned on as needed & I usually would cut off the refrigerator - freezer circuits while it was on. The air handler & backup propane furnace were also usable. The water heater stayed on all the time (it is a heat pump style and the resistance elements are turned off) as it only draws about 500w when running. I had meters on the sub-panel to track watt draw per leg & would check as new loads were tried to verify plenty of margin.
We went to a whole house unit to have something that would work safely even if the wife was home alone & that would be kosher for NC codes (my work around was not). To get a whole house transfer connection (rather than selective circuits), the installed unit had to be able to handle all house loads (using load management if necessary) and a propane 22 KW unit would just do the job with the heat pump included on the load list. Nick |
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We use a 7500 watt Generac. It has a 2-pole 30amp twist lock.
I don't like the amount of fuel consumption during extended outages but it's what we need. It will power the two mini-splits, 2 refrigerators, the freezer and some lights. If we want to make hot water (4500 watts) we just turn off the heat for a couple of hours and make hot water. Also check out the interlock as mentioned above. If your not going to purchase a standby generator it's much cheaper and gives you more options on what circuits you want to power at any given time. |
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Quoted:
For what it's worth, my dad runs a wireless internet company. From time to time a storm will take down power, so he has portable generators to take out and keep the radios running. He did a LOT of research into the different brands/models and he ended up buying the Powerhorse brand from Northern Tool. He was explaining to me that for the money they are the best he found. The windings are better, and the output is smoother, so he can run all his electronics without big surges. There's nothing special about the "windings" - They're copper, just like most other generators. That model uses an automatic voltage regulator ("AVR") circuit, just like a lot of other generators. The power quality isn't going to be any better than most other AVR-equipped models. |
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I'd buy at least a 7k gen with the Honda ohc engine.
Add an hour meter and have a muffler shop weld on a muffler. Change oil per hour recommended. We ran one of these throughout the summer in west tx. Never, hater many hundress of hours, had a problem with it. Txl |
| Lots of good info here to consider. I'll have to go down into the basement and check the panel to see if an interlock kit is an option. The house was totally rewired in 2008 so the panel is fairly new at least. The PTO driven generator is out for now. I haven't pulled the trigger on a tractor yet, and if the power is out in the winter chances are good I'll need it for moving snow anyways. I'm still pretty set on propane, the idea of having 500 gallons on site already and the co-op that fills it 2 miles up the road is a big advantage. Plus not having to always keep a bunch of gas cans around and having to remember to rotate the fuel out so it doesn't go bad. |
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Your generator is only one part of the system. The cost for transfer switch, wiring, foundation or pad to set the generator, shed or building to protect it, fuel infrastructure, will exceed the cost of the generator component. Investment and selection of these parts is more important than the generator. The generator is a time and capacity limited device. It may be changed out later. Everything else will remain.
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I suggest a diesel genset and a 55 gal drum of diesel. Normally i'd suggest an MEP-803a military surplus genset, but if i read your location, you are in North Dakota. Not to many military bases to lok for surplus gensets.
I normally shop govliquidation.com and govplanet.com. I bought mine for about $1,800 out the door with 22 hours on it. Diesel last forever, diesel gensets sip fuel, and are very quiet. Good luck. |
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Quoted: Well, minor update. After looking at interlock kit and transfer switch options the other night something in the back of my brain tickled and I remembered seeing a box with a 3 prong male plug in it out on the pole where our service line comes in at. It looked a lot like the ones in the transfer switch kit. I looked this morning before work and sure enough there is a transfer switch there on the pole and a 50A socket to plug the generator into. With all of the stuff going on with moving into the place apparently I looked at it once and then forgot about it. Looks something like this: http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac250/mh2742/Mobile%20Uploads/316400180-2_zpssy4vz0gi.jpg http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac250/mh2742/Mobile%20Uploads/50A%20plug_zpsynx5yln2.jpg I texted the former owner and he confirmed what I thought after looking at it, the switch isolates the whole property from the grid; house, garage and shop. Then I can feed it from there or one of the 50A outlets in the shop. So that saved probably $500 on the project, which is nice. I will just have to make a cord once I figure out where I want the generator to be. |
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If you have a source for those 3 position switches for under $300, LET ME KNOW!!!!! Those (anywhere I have found) are insanely expensive for some odd reason. Ever considered rolling your own? 
(also available in several other sizes and contact configurations.) |
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Quoted: Ever considered rolling your own? http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/k9MAAOSwGtNXiGSq/s-l1600.jpg (also available in several other sizes and contact configurations.) Quoted: Quoted: If you have a source for those 3 position switches for under $300, LET ME KNOW!!!!! Those (anywhere I have found) are insanely expensive for some odd reason. Ever considered rolling your own? http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/k9MAAOSwGtNXiGSq/s-l1600.jpg (also available in several other sizes and contact configurations.)  |
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Well, minor update finally. I did end up picking up the 7000w/9000w Champion dual fuel generator at Costco. After some research I was able to track down the plug that I needed for the power inlet on the transfer switch. I got 75ft of 8/4 SOOW cord and made my cord to plug into the generator and transfer switch. I finally got the spare time to try the whole setup out today. The generator starts and runs great on gas and the cord and transfer switch all work great. I ran the furnace, fridge and some lights for a little while just to make sure it all works.
However, when I try to run the generator on propane it won't stay running. It will start and surge 3 or 4 times then dies like it's not getting enough fuel. I have it hooked up to a quick connect coming from our bulk tank instead of a 20 or 30# bottle. From the bulk tank to where the quick connects are by the deck is probably 80ft. Is is possible that there just isn't enough gas flowing through that long of a run to keep an engine running? |
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Talk to your propane company about how many BTU that quick connect line can supply. Under propane, that generator is rated for around a 6kw full time load, which would be in the neighborhood of 110,000 BTU per hour. You would want that capacity at a minimum. You may need to run a new line w/new regulator at the generator end to ensure adequate supply. Drawing more propane than the supply can handle can result in freeze ups (and visible frost) on line & regulator as well as starving the motor & running it lean.
Nick (edit to mod BTU number...) |
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Quoted:
Ever considered rolling your own?
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/k9MAAOSwGtNXiGSq/s-l1600.jpg (also available in several other sizes and contact configurations.) 100 amp 3pole for $23 I might get a couple to play with. I wish they where UL but the last inspector on my property was asked to leave and never return so it's not an issue. |
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What is the pressure at the fitting? Is it 8 to 10 lbs or about 10 to 14" water column? I have a 12kw set up on propane. I ran the propane on the first cut
regulator which is about 8 pounds thru about 50' of 1/2 inch line. I then cut it down with a second regulator to what ever the gen specs called for. It was a short 3/4" flex hose supplied with the gen from 2nd regulator to gen itself. |
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Quoted:
Well, minor update finally. I did end up picking up the 7000w/9000w Champion dual fuel generator at Costco. After some research I was able to track down the plug that I needed for the power inlet on the transfer switch. I got 75ft of 8/4 SOOW cord and made my cord to plug into the generator and transfer switch. I finally got the spare time to try the whole setup out today. The generator starts and runs great on gas and the cord and transfer switch all work great. I ran the furnace, fridge and some lights for a little while just to make sure it all works. However, when I try to run the generator on propane it won't stay running. It will start and surge 3 or 4 times then dies like it's not getting enough fuel. I have it hooked up to a quick connect coming from our bulk tank instead of a 20 or 30# bottle. From the bulk tank to where the quick connects are by the deck is probably 80ft. Is is possible that there just isn't enough gas flowing through that long of a run to keep an engine running? When its running on propane and starts dying, give it a shot of starting fluid down the carb. Just to be sure something funny isn't going on with spark. You never know.. After that, I would say that 80' is a LONG run, with PLENTY of air in it to purge out. I would take the fitting off the generator and then turn the valve on from the house for a few seconds to purge everything, then try again. I would give that procedure a few attempts before contacting Costco about a possible faulty demand regulator on the generator. |