Posted: 7/21/2009 3:57:38 AM EDT
|
So I'm sitting on the tractor mowing our lower pasture the other night. Round and round. The more I mow, the more I think: it is positively sinful to be mowing this grass. I might as well be pouring diesel fuel on the ground.
A few conversations with Mrs. Feral later and getting some feeder cows has been elevated from the "maybe some year" list to the "do this season" list. 
I have to do a number of things to make that a reality though. (1) They'll need a shelter. For a variety of reasons our barn isn't gonna be a good choice, sadly. I'm thinking about a run-in shed........maybe 12' X 16' with an 8' opening. Will that be adequate to grow out three feeder cows? (2) Gotta fence the lower pasture. I'm thinking T-posts with three strands of hot wire. Will that be adequate for now? (3) Feed. I only have about 4 acres pasture to work with so I know that I'll be supplementing a lot. How much hay should I plan on? (4) Co-existing with my pigs. If the pig-pen is sitting right in the middle of the cow's pasture, will the cows mess with the pig-pen? Do I need to fence that off somehow? (5) What else should I be considering? Interestingly, while people seem to be somewhat ho-hum about buying pork, everybody I've talked with seems to be chomping at the bit to buy beef. I'm not doing this for profit motives, but it sure won't be hard to find buyers for this beef next year. ETA: We're pending the issue of a dairy cow for now. Got enough things going on as is and just getting some beef cows will be enough of a project. |
|
1) yes....damn few cows /calves out here have ANY kind of shelter,other than what shade they can find.
2) You might want to go with 4 strands......if a calf can get his head UNDER it he 'll be gone.....or he;'ll go between the strands or over the top.Even a 1000 lb steer is pretty agile and QUICK. 3)If you have a good quality grass and get enough rain.....4 acres MIGHT be adequate.Is there much hay for sale in your area?? 4)not likely to be problem 5)cows/calves need LOTS of water when it's really hot.I'd have at least a 100 gal tank and a way to fill it easily.(it's pretty simple too rig those with a float vale too) best Dana P.S. if they have good feed and water they are less likley to "challenge" the fences....... |
|
Quoted:
So I'm sitting on the tractor mowing our lower pasture the other night. Round and round. The more I mow, the more I think: it is positively sinful to be mowing this grass. I might as well be pouring diesel fuel on the ground. A few conversations with Mrs. Feral later and getting some feeder cows has been elevated from the "maybe some year" list to the "do this season" list.
I have to do a number of things to make that a reality though. (1) They'll need a shelter. For a variety of reasons our barn isn't gonna be a good choice, sadly. I'm thinking about a run-in shed........maybe 12' X 16' with an 8' opening. Will that be adequate to grow out three feeder cows? Sounds plenty big. Remember you will have to get in to clean it out in spring. I need to build something this summer and planned on a 3 sided building, open to the south, about 10x20, and high enough to drive the loader tractor in to clean it out. (2) Gotta fence the lower pasture. I'm thinking T-posts with three strands of hot wire. Will that be adequate for now?This is what we use. Deer run thru it at night and knock it down a few times a year. I am planning on using the white rope conductor LINK on top for better visibility. A few times a year we have to walk the fence with a weed wacker to keep the weeds of the lower wires. (3) Feed. I only have about 4 acres pasture to work with so I know that I'll be supplementing a lot. How much hay should I plan on? In winter we feed about 1/2 bale a day per cow. We had been feeding grass hay and pasture. Last one we butchered had a slight gamey taste. Nothing offensive but different than corn fed beef. This year we are trying alfalfa hay to see if it makes a difference. (4) Co-existing with my pigs. If the pig-pen is sitting right in the middle of the cow's pasture, will the cows mess with the pig-pen? Do I need to fence that off somehow?They might rub\scratch on it. If its sturdy shouldnt be an issue. (5) What else should I be considering?How are you going to move the manure in spring? We have a small spreader that we pull with an atv. Interestingly, while people seem to be somewhat ho-hum about buying pork, everybody I've talked with seems to be chomping at the bit to buy beef. I'm not doing this for profit motives, but it sure won't be hard to find buyers for this beef next year. ETA: We're pending the issue of a dairy cow for now. Got enough things going on as is and just getting some beef cows will be enough of a project. We have 8 mini-cows now(Wifes pets) and plan on getting some steers soon. Something else to consider, loading and unloading them. You will need some type of pen to steer them into the trailer. |
|
Quoted:
1) yes....damn few cows /calves out here have ANY kind of shelter,other than what shade they can find. 2) You might want to go with 4 strands......if a calf can get his head UNDER it he 'll be gone.....or he;'ll go between the strands or over the top.Even a 1000 lb steer is pretty agile and QUICK. 3)If you have a good quality grass and get enough rain.....4 acres MIGHT be adequate.Is there much hay for sale in your area?? 4)not likely to be problem 5)cows/calves need LOTS of water when it's really hot.I'd have at least a 100 gal tank and a way to fill it easily.(it's pretty simple too rig those with a float vale too) best Dana P.S. if they have good feed and water they are less likley to "challenge" the fences....... Pretty much this Worthy to add that if you have to buy alot of hay, it diminishes your savings on store bought beef fast. Beef cattle eat a ton. |
|
Feral, if you have the equipment and resources, you can always cross fence your 4 acres so that you can plant rye this winter in one, move the cattle when it starts growing, then plant on the other side. It will cut your hay cost a good bit, and the field will look better. I picked up a Holstein bull(made him a steer) for the same reason, my mother had a 1 acre pasture that she kept cutting on the lawn tractor. Bought a cheap cow and she doesn't have to cut it anymore, and come early spring I'm gonna fill a freezer with him.
1. Shelter need is minimal, a shade tree for a really hot day is plenty, in PA I doubt you'll need it. 2. IMO, electric fences are not worth the trouble, 3 strands of barbed wire will hold the cattle in and you won't have to worry about the fence shorting out and being pushed over. 3. Down here, if you don't plant rye, you can count on about 1 round bale per animal. I'm sure your winter is a bit more harsh then mine, so local advice would be better. 4. Like someone else said, unless the cow gets a bad itch and your hog pen T-Post is the only thing around, they won't mess with it unless there is better food on the inside of the hog pen. 5. Consider where you buy the cows. I'll assume these are just beef cows and you don't plan on milking. You can pick up 3 day old beef bulls at auction down here for six bucks. They will need antibiotics and special feed till they break 4 weeks old. Total cow will cost you roughly 70 bucks after 2 bags of special food and antibiotics. You could also buy a month old calf, not risk losing a baby to disease or something that was set in motion before you bought it, or have to deal with bottle feedings once or twice a day, but you'll spend $100+ on the cow. Buying the same cows, but female, will cost you 10-20 times more even at 3 days old. Lastly, if you get bulls, band them yourself, the experience is worth it. |
|
Good info, guys. Thanks.
From what I'm hearing, the hay around here has been fine. No shortages. I like the idea of using the white conductor rope. I've seen that at a few places and it looks good. I'm gonna check costs on getting fence posts set for high tensile fence, but suspect I'll be using T-posts on the portion of the land I need to fence. (The rest is already 7-strand high tensile.) I may back off on the size of the shed if I can get away with it. But everyone I've talked to around here says I need some sort of shelter.....and we do get some horrific winds where we are. Planting rye grass sounds intriguing........can I use a broadcast spreader and just overseed the existing pasture? |
|
Quoted:
As long as it gets water, rye grass will grow no matter how you spread it. Around here people either overseed, or aerate their soil then spread it. Rarely do people disk/cultivate before planting it unless they are planting where trash used to be. Sounds good to me. I don't have a 3 pt spreader but I don't think they're all that expensive. This sounds like a good reason to get one. 
|
|
Feral, be aware you may still have to bushhog or tend the pasture to some degree. Good pasture is a crop like anything else. I'm sure you know this already, but thought it was worth mentioning. Some people think they can turn cows into a field and will never have to touch it again. Not so. Three sided shed works great down here...open side away from the weather. Also better for cleaning it out. Also down here, three strands of stretched wire or barbed wire is the standard, with ONE strand of hot near the bottom to nail the bull calves when they decide to shove their way under. Sometimes they'll go over, depending on the breed, but not as often. Like others have said...you need to walk it once a week or so to check for weeds, limbs, other stuff that's lying across it and shorting it out. You'll quickly learn the sound of it when it's shorted out. Get some opinions on what's the best fence box to buy. Some are crap, others are proven for generations. I would definitely build some kind of loading chute on the side of the shed––one you can back a trailer up to easily. You can also do this by putting a gate at one end of your shed's back wall, and setting it up so you can move a section of metal gate across the shed to section it off as a chute. Assuming you have a trailer with a ramp, you don't have to have the old-fashioned elevated "chute" that way. (Okay does that make any sense? If you can't picture what I'm saying, smack me around. 
|
|
Quoted:
Feral, be aware you may still have to bushhog or tend the pasture to some degree. Good pasture is a crop like anything else. I'm sure you know this already, but thought it was worth mentioning. Some people think they can turn cows into a field and will never have to touch it again. Not so. Three sided shed works great down here...open side away from the weather. Also better for cleaning it out. Also down here, three strands of stretched wire or barbed wire is the standard, with ONE strand of hot near the bottom to nail the bull calves when they decide to shove their way under. Sometimes they'll go over, depending on the breed, but not as often. Like others have said...you need to walk it once a week or so to check for weeds, limbs, other stuff that's lying across it and shorting it out. You'll quickly learn the sound of it when it's shorted out. Get some opinions on what's the best fence box to buy. Some are crap, others are proven for generations. I would definitely build some kind of loading chute on the side of the shed––one you can back a trailer up to easily. You can also do this by putting a gate at one end of your shed's back wall, and setting it up so you can move a section of metal gate across the shed to section it off as a chute. Assuming you have a trailer with a ramp, you don't have to have the old-fashioned elevated "chute" that way. (Okay does that make any sense? If you can't picture what I'm saying, smack me around. No smacking needed, but I'm not following you here 100%.
My trailer is a bastardized stock trailer that was converted to a horse trailer. It has a ramp that drops down off the back though it still has a swing-out door that even has a half-width door as a slider. When you drop the ramp, you're still confronted with the stock trailer door––the ramp drops down but then there's still a door than swings open on hinges and that door stilll has a half-width slider door on it. Make sense? 
I'm all for figuring out loading issues before embarking on this, so any advice on that is welcome. |
|
Feral, I can't picture what you're saying about your trailer. Dang, I wish I was good with the little graphic thingies, and I'd draw what I'm talking about. Lemme see if I can say it a different way... Basically, if you have a three-sided shed, and you have uprights, say, every eight or ten feet, (by "uprights" I mean the posts that support the barn–– this is kind of a pole-barn type shed in my imagination) you can install a couple of gate sections on the last upright before the end––Just for grins let's pretend that upright/support beam is eight feet from the end, for instance. If you have a barn door on that end on the back side (this is the enclosed side,) you can back your trailer up to it, open the ramp right inside the shed's back door, herd the animals to that end (you will have to have some available gate sections for this––gotta shut them into the shed first) then close them in with those end gate sections and herd them onto the trailer. Basically you're moving them to one end of the shed, then closing them into a small chute-like space and giving them no way out. ONE gate works best for this. If you have two gates and connect them in the center, that's your weak point, and cattle tend to find a weak point and work it rather than go where you want them to go. This last part is not a deal breaker, especially if you have gentle cattle, but it's just a fact. If you want a cow to go there, the cow is gonna wanna go the other direction. The key to this system, as I've seen it done, is to plan and build your shed so that your moveable gate sections are the same length as your shed supports/posts. (I'm talking about those metal gates that come in different lengths––8, 10 and (maybe) 12 feet––) Here's an image of one kind––this kind is common down here. Scroll down to farm gate and click on it. Sorry for the stupidly long link.... http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ggweldingllc.com/products/Dsc00783.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.ggweldingllc.com/products.html&usg=__nGvu1r2d8Lb2RB9hL6TXU-oeCWk=&h=242&w=410&sz=45&hl=en&start=3&tbnid=FU34zi4eREGG3M:&tbnh=74&tbnw=125&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmetal%2Bfarm%2Bgates%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN Anyway if you have three or four of these and make your shed uprights the same distance apart as the length of your gates, it gives you a lot of options. You can then make stalls if you need to, by positioning gates at right angles and fastening them to the uprights, (say your shed is 12 feet deep, and your uprights are 12 feet apart. Two 12-foot gates and ta-da––you've got a stall.) You can also close off the shed and keep the cattle in there if you need to do so, or you can easily create a narrow stall on one end that works as a loading chute. AS LONG as your trailer has a ramp. No ramp––no chute. You COULD even set your shed up to begin with, with an extra-narrow section at one end, as narrow as six feet, for instance, just ready for a gate to be slid into place across the depth of the shed to create your chute. It's the best way I've seen of creating a cheap, modular "barn" with potential "stalls" and of using one of them for a loading chute if you don't want to fool with building a separate chute. My experience with the old fashioned loading chutes is that you have to have gate sections anyway, to funnel the cattle into them. Cattle look at those chutes and say, "uh-uh. Nope. Ain't goin' in there. gonna run right over the crazy insane 100-lb short chick (me) waving her arms. I can flatten her but I ain't goin where they're tryin' to shove me. Nope. AIN'T goin in that there little skinny slanted floor thingy." Okay, clear as mud, or still making no sense? Really...I've had a couple of glasses of cabernet (with a really good steak, btw), so I may not be at my most eloquent. Also, round bales are cheaper to feed (though you'll have to find yourself a round bale feeder to avoid waste) since you already have a tractor. You could probably pick up a round bale fork used. |
|
Quoted: My trailer is a bastardized stock trailer that was converted to a horse trailer. It has a ramp that drops down off the back though it still has a swing-out door that even has a half-width door as a slider. When you drop the ramp, you're still confronted with the stock trailer door––the ramp drops down but then there's still a door than swings open on hinges and that door stilll has a half-width slider door on it. Make sense? As long as you can get the ramp into the enclosed space (which may take an extra hand to accomplish, or tying the ramp up after the doors are open until you back up to the barn door––or something) it will work. You've loaded big hogs to take to market, so how did you manage that? The cattle will probably work the same way. Maybe even easier. God I hate loading hogs (sorry for the repeated "kitties hates hogs" redundancies in the food forum, btw) (wait. repeated redundancies...that's redundant.... Never mind...) Okay I'll tell you the truth. Your setup costs are gonna be high for this....round bale feeder, fork to move hay, barn construction, gates to make barn work (maybe), cattle, HAY AND MORE HAY plus some feed, FENCING, electricity to run the weedchopper or bulldozer fence box, watering system, with heater or plans to go out and bust the ice every morning four or five months out of the year, cost of maintaining good pasture to reduce your feeding costs.... and you still have to pay the slaughter and packing fees. The poster who said diesel is cheaper is correct. Oh, and there's salt blocks...and vet bills....the list goes on. It's kinda like keeping a horse, except you generally don't eat a horse. But you don't generally ride a steer.... Ah hell.... Run the numbers. It may be cheaper to contract an organically grown cow or three per year. If you want a dairy animal, eventually, you may wish to amend the barn plans a little to make that easier when the time comes. And if you want a dairy animal, you'll need some kind of shelter anyhow, so maybe that's playing into it. But unless you just REALLY want to raise cattle, it is often a tough jobl to make it pay on a small scale, even if you're doing it for homesteading/healthy food reasons. Oh, and I should say...the pigs will want out more than the cows will want in. The cows will rub on the fence to the hog lot. Cows like to scratch. Telephone poles are a favorite. 24th edit: You've got a barn, right? Can't you fence off a corridor to your pasture? They'll use it. Like a hallway. For real. This may be the cheapest way to go. If you've got a barn, I cannot see building another structure unless there is no possible way to get the cows from the field to the shelter. ESPECIALLY if you want to milk eventually. That barn will be the best resource you have––you can fix a milking stall in there––AND an area for the beef cattle to shelter––with just fencing costs. Fencing is cheap compared to building a shed/barn. |
|
Quoted:
So I'm sitting on the tractor mowing our lower pasture the other night. Round and round. The more I mow, the more I think: it is positively sinful to be mowing this grass. I might as well be pouring diesel fuel on the ground. A few conversations with Mrs. Feral later and getting some feeder cows has been elevated from the "maybe some year" list to the "do this season" list.
I have to do a number of things to make that a reality though. (1) They'll need a shelter. For a variety of reasons our barn isn't gonna be a good choice, sadly. I'm thinking about a run-in shed........maybe 12' X 16' with an 8' opening. Will that be adequate to grow out three feeder cows? Glad I live in TX. My calf/cow pairs have never seen any roof over their head. Might want to check out 'Salad Bar Beef' by Joel Salatin. He has some good ideas on design for rotating cows, pigs, and chickens (2) Gotta fence the lower pasture. I'm thinking T-posts with three strands of hot wire. Will that be adequate for now? I don't know. I had one cow one year and she never learned. She kept on breaking the wire and leading others out. I went with permananent this year with one hot wire at the top. (3) Feed. I only have about 4 acres pasture to work with so I know that I'll be supplementing a lot. How much hay should I plan on? I fed 1 round bales for 15 cows and 15 calves per day. (4) Co-existing with my pigs. If the pig-pen is sitting right in the middle of the cow's pasture, will the cows mess with the pig-pen? Do I need to fence that off somehow? (5) What else should I be considering? Interestingly, while people seem to be somewhat ho-hum about buying pork, everybody I've talked with seems to be chomping at the bit to buy beef. I'm not doing this for profit motives, but it sure won't be hard to find buyers for this beef next year. ETA: We're pending the issue of a dairy cow for now. Got enough things going on as is and just getting some beef cows will be enough of a project. |
|
With diary cows, keep in mind that they usually need milking twice a day. While you don't have much land, you will have to get them back to the barn or shed for milking twice daily.
Like others have mentioned, grass-fed beef tastes entirely different than grain-fed beef. However, the cows are healthy. Grain-only beef basically lives on grain and antibiotics- litterally. Without antibiotics, grain-only beef would not live to even market weight, much less slaughter weight. A grain-only diet does not support good liver health in cows, and they get very sick. Grass fed beef has none of those issues. The final product is healthier beef for the consumer, too. You'll notice that the fat and marbling is softer, and more a yellow/orange color instead of hard and white like your grocery store beef. The beef will taste different. Not bad, but different than what most are accustomed to. Somewhat like bison, which are also grass-only. And the grass or grass mixture does play a part in the beef taste, too. Stress as well. If you stress your beef, particularly right before slaughter, you get a release of lactic acid and other bodily products in the muscles of the animal. It does NOT taste good, and makes the beef tough. |
|
I'm guessing you are thinking about obtaining some beef-type calves that weigh maybe 600 pounds, feed them on grass and supplementing with grain.
For shelter, you really only need enough room for them all to stand inside. It doesn't have to be large, tall, or elaborate- most beef cattle in the US are never housed. And like your hogs, even if you allow them to have plenty of individual space they will gather together into a tight group, standing or lying against or very near each other. They prefer it that way. The shelter you mentioned would be more than adeaquate. Whether the electric fence would be adequate is a tough question to answer. It would PROBABLY suffice, but they will have to learn what it is first. Electric fences are appealing because they are affordable and easy to move. Here is an idea: Obtain four cattle panels (taller than your hog panels but the same length) and put them in a square in the middle of your grassy area, staking the corners with T-posts. This will be the "Home Base" for your calves and offers something a little more substantial than the electric fence. Keep your calves penned a couple of weeks and carry grain and water to them so that they will get used to you. You can then begin turning them out into your electric-fenced area during the day. Once they are used to it, if good grass and water is available for them (and you were lucky and didn't bring home one of those crazy, wild ones) a single strand strung between re-bar stakes is often adequate. I would not depend upon a single strand to keep them on your property, though. (If the calves are small, you can use hog panels for a while). You'll eventually need a good, substantial fence surrounding the entire cattle enclosure. Like they say, good fences make good neighbors! The quantity of hay you need is going to depend upon the size of your animals and the quality of the hay you have available. Smaller animals cannot eat as much as big ones. As long as you have plenty of good fresh grass available you should not need to feed any hay. Once your grass is gone you will need to offer hay or other suitable roughage- a ration of 100% grain is asking for trouble since they need roughage for digestion. For beef animals, your goal is for the animals to gain pounds so you'll want to offer them as much as they will eat. I'd guess that enough hay to fill a bushel basket would be plenty each day for a steer that weighs around 900 pounds. Depending upon what is available in your part of the country, the old "square" bales will be most convenient for you to handle. If they are available, I'd figure 1/2 bale per head per day for at least 4 months in your part of the country. More is better. The larger "round" bales, 4x8 bales, etc. will require handling and feeding complications. Cattle are not likely to bother the hogs, and vice-versa. You could use your hog fence for one side of your cattle fence without any problem. You can put them in the same pens or pastures. Like your hogs, cattle will happily eat many of the items in/from your garden, even large pumpkins, squashes, and turnips if you chop them to a swallowable size. Many commercial beeves are raised on pasture, hay, or silage based rations and then are grain-fed to supplement only in their last few months to "finish" them. Around here, a general rule of thumb is one cow-calf unit per acre of pasture. It can vary depending upon management and the weather. |
|
Quoted:
...can I use a broadcast spreader and just overseed the existing pasture? You CAN buy a bag of seed and carry it around, broadcasting handsfulls on top of the ground. Give your kids coffe cans full of seed to toss into the sky and let the seeds "rain" down. You can also purchase little broadcast spreaders that you wear over your shoulder that will do the same thing. I've seen them for four-wheelers and riding mowers as attachments. Just depends on what you want to spend your money on, and your time vs. tools situaltion. One thing about spreading the seed by hand is that you can soak the seeds overnight and they will sprout right away, no waiting for a rain to get started. |
|
I'm trying to figure out how to utilize our barn as shelter for these cows. I'm rather dismayed at the costs of pre-built run-in sheds and, as KWS said, building fence is cheaper than building structures. Maybe we can in fact make a corridor of some sort to get the cows from barn to pasture. Unfortunately, no matter how you slice it, the corridor will/would bisect the kids' play yard.
|
|
Quoted:
24th edit: You've got a barn, right? Can't you fence off a corridor to your pasture? They'll use it. Like a hallway. For real. This may be the cheapest way to go. If you've got a barn, I cannot see building another structure unless there is no possible way to get the cows from the field to the shelter. ESPECIALLY if you want to milk eventually. That barn will be the best resource you have––you can fix a milking stall in there––AND an area for the beef cattle to shelter––with just fencing costs. Fencing is cheap compared to building a shed/barn. See, this is where I keep getting hung up, too. The barn I remember seeing a picture of is an awesome asset and it should be used! I've heard you say that it used to be a dairy barn but now it isn't suitable because it was divided into horse stalls. Why can't you use the horse stalls for cattle, hogs, chickens? I believe you mentioned that the location of the barn isn't conducive to sheltering livestock that would still have access to the pastures. An electric fence would make a suitable lane to move cattle from the barn to the pasture area, and they will quickly learn to return to the barn at feeding time especially if they hear you shake a bucket with some feed in it. They do not have to be let outside; if the weather is threatening just leave them in the barn. Perhaps we would understand better if you could post a rough diagram of your property and noted your concerns (MS Paint)? Are there any stanchions left in the barn anywhere at all? One would be handy for restraining a steer for vet purposes, if needed. As you probably noticed with your hogs last year, the more contact you have with them the easier they will be to handle. With only three calves, it shouldn't be a major chore to break them all to lead on a halter. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
24th edit: You've got a barn, right? Can't you fence off a corridor to your pasture? They'll use it. Like a hallway. For real. This may be the cheapest way to go. If you've got a barn, I cannot see building another structure unless there is no possible way to get the cows from the field to the shelter. ESPECIALLY if you want to milk eventually. That barn will be the best resource you have––you can fix a milking stall in there––AND an area for the beef cattle to shelter––with just fencing costs. Fencing is cheap compared to building a shed/barn. See, this is where I keep getting hung up, too. The barn I remember seeing a picture of is an awesome asset and it should be used! I've heard you say that it used to be a dairy barn but now it isn't suitable because it was divided into horse stalls. Why can't you use the horse stalls for cattle, hogs, chickens? I believe you mentioned that the location of the barn isn't conducive to sheltering livestock that would still have access to the pastures. An electric fence would make a suitable lane to move cattle from the barn to the pasture area, and they will quickly learn to return to the barn at feeding time especially if they hear you shake a bucket with some feed in it. They do not have to be let outside; if the weather is threatening just leave them in the barn. Perhaps we would understand better if you could post a rough diagram of your property and noted your concerns (MS Paint)? Are there any stanchions left in the barn anywhere at all? One would be handy for restraining a steer for vet purposes, if needed. As you probably noticed with your hogs last year, the more contact you have with them the easier they will be to handle. With only three calves, it shouldn't be a major chore to break them all to lead on a halter. Don't hold your breath on that MS Paint idea.
I want the cows to be able to come and go from the barn at their leisure unless we have them closed in for some reason. 
See the smaller door on the right? If you walk through that door, you're standing in a hay storage area with concrete floor, about 16' X14'. Just beyond that there are two horse stalls with the concrete busted out in 'em. I'd like to be able to fence off the hay storage area and open it up into that first stall. Leave the door open and let 'em come and go as they wish. Turn your IMs on and I'll figure out a way to show you the property....I have some aerial photos at home. |
|
Quoted: I'm trying to figure out how to utilize our barn as shelter for these cows. I'm rather dismayed at the costs of pre-built run-in sheds and, as KWS said, building fence is cheaper than building structures. Maybe we can in fact make a corridor of some sort to get the cows from barn to pasture. Unfortunately, no matter how you slice it, the corridor will/would bisect the kids' play yard. Even if you have to fence a corridor all the way around the edges of two sides of your property, and skirt the main center of the yard/play area, it's still a good option, and the cattle will use it without a problem. You feed them inside that barn for a few days, then let them out––they'll find their way to the pasture, then they'll come back in when you rattle the feed bucket and call for them. DO plan on feeding for a few weeks––some kind of sweet feed––when you first bring the steers home. Even if you have plenty of pasture, offer them something they'll want––maybe something with molasses in it––so they get used to coming when you call. It'll make your life easier. Skunkum said: The larger "round" bales, 4x8 bales, etc. will require handling and feeding complications. But he's already got a tractor large enough to handle a round bale. The forks and round bale feeders are cheap, used, and the hay in round bales is WAY less labor-intensive to store. And cheaper. The square bales will give him better quality, usually, but I'm thinking the existing ability to move the round bales will push the economics in favor of round bales. Maybe not though. I admit that, aesthetically, I prefer the square bales, but money dictates that most farmers go with round.  |
|
Quoted:
(5) What else should I be considering? To give you an idea of how much grass you are mowing off, back in my day a good hay field produced about 100 square bales per acre per year if it wasn't pastured. That would be enough hay to winter one head. When selecting feeder calves it is often difficult to determine their breed since they are generally crossbreeds. For your purposes, I wouldn't worry too much about which breed excels at pounds of gain per pound of feed or other statistics. Choose animals that have a "beefy" look to them, as opposed to a thin, "dairy" look. If they are thin when you get them, they are probably going to stay thin. Your calves should have a straight back, deep chest, and sound legs and feet. As you drive around the country, start actually looking at the cattle you see in pastures. You'll soon have a good idea of what is normal. You'll want your calves to be about the same size unless you want to feed them separately. ETA: We're pending the issue of a dairy cow for now. Got enough things going on as is and just getting some beef cows will be enough of a project.
This issue will be worthy of a separate thread. Cheaper alternative: have you ever considered getting a milk goat? |
|
If you've never been, go to a few stock sales at the local yard if you can get there. Just watch for a while. It's a really good learning experience. Even the time of year you choose to buy your calves can be used to your advantage. Just because most farmers buy feeder calves in a given month, doesn't mean you have to do so. There are always a few available. There may not be 500 available in late February, but there will be three. And for the farmer buying 600, his objective and assets are different from yours. You don't have a lot of pasture, but you have some. So you're more like an old-fashioned small farmer feeding out calves than the modern feed lots, where the calves never really see pasture so it doesn't make much difference when they're finished. For you it can make all the difference. Let's say you buy in late February, you'll be feeding for a couple of months until the pasture gets going, but the calves will be smaller then, so they don't eat as much. You want them to do the bulk of their growing while they're on your pasture, which is in the summer, so if you buy in, say, late Feb and slaughter in September (I don't know what your poundage goals are here, but this is just hypothetical), you've got the most use out of your pasture for the year, you've fed the least amount of purchased supplement, and you have the winter to rejuvenate the pasture for the next spring's calves. |
|
Quoted:
Even if you have to fence a corridor all the way around the edges of two sides of your property, and skirt the main center of the yard/play area, it's still a good option, and the cattle will use it without a problem. You feed them inside that barn for a few days, then let them out––they'll find their way to the pasture, then they'll come back in when you rattle the feed bucket and call for them. DO plan on feeding for a few weeks––some kind of sweet feed––when you first bring the steers home. Even if you have plenty of pasture, offer them something they'll want––maybe something with molasses in it––so they get used to coming when you call. It'll make your life easier. I'm into having life be easier––life is full of enough work as it is.
I'm coming around to your corridor plan. Just don't have the bucks to go the run-in shed route. (More accurately, we have the money, I just want to hang onto it as it's sitting in our emergency fund.) |
|
Quoted:
This issue will be worthy of a separate thread. Cheaper alternative: have you ever considered getting a milk goat? We're probably gonna go that route when Mrs. Feral is ready. Even making a lot of cheese we don't really need the production of a dairy cow.......and I really don't want to get into selling gray market unpasteurized milk. |
|
You've got a barn. I'd hang onto that money. YOu can find a way to use that big red asset sitting on your property. DO be aware that they will wear out the turf in the corridor. So in the months you don't have calves on it, you'll be reseeding that. It'll be your highest-maintenance area. But it's common for this to be the way farmers move/manage cattle. You'll see feed lots with corridors going every which way off of the main area––the farmer just opens whichever gate to whatever pasture he wants to use at that time, and the cattle come and go down the corridors. If you're going to do a corridor system, you're going to need a fence box that will push more power because you're going to have more distance to push it. You're in a residential area. Make the fence on the outside of your property hot. CAVEAT: There is a learning curve for your kids here. A big fence box will knock the ever-lovin crap out of you. |
|
Quoted:
But he's already got a tractor large enough to handle a round bale. The forks and round bale feeders are cheap, used, and the hay in round bales is WAY less labor-intensive to store. And cheaper. The square bales will give him better quality, usually, but I'm thinking the existing ability to move the round bales will push the economics in favor of round bales. Maybe not though. I admit that, aesthetically, I prefer the square bales, but money dictates that most farmers go with round. Agreed, but in my experience feeding round bales to 1-3 head is not very practical. You really need to be feeding a larger number of animals to keep the hay from mostly being wasted. And he is going to create some tractor ruts in his yard next spring if he is having to stay on his 4 acres while hauling around big bales of hay. You might be able to find an old hay knife and use a pitchfork to serve appropriate quantities out from larger bales but it won't be very convenient. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
My trailer is a bastardized stock trailer that was converted to a horse trailer. It has a ramp that drops down off the back though it still has a swing-out door that even has a half-width door as a slider. When you drop the ramp, you're still confronted with the stock trailer door––the ramp drops down but then there's still a door than swings open on hinges and that door stilll has a half-width slider door on it. Make sense?
As long as you can get the ramp into the enclosed space (which may take an extra hand to accomplish, or tying the ramp up after the doors are open until you back up to the barn door––or something) it will work. You've loaded big hogs to take to market, so how did you manage that? The cattle will probably work the same way. Maybe even easier. God I hate loading hogs (sorry for the repeated "kitties hates hogs" redundancies in the food forum, btw) (wait. repeated redundancies...that's redundant.... Never mind...)
Okay I'll tell you the truth. Your setup costs are gonna be high for this....round bale feeder, fork to move hay, barn construction, gates to make barn work (maybe), cattle, HAY AND MORE HAY plus some feed, FENCING, electricity to run the weedchopper or bulldozer fence box, watering system, with heater or plans to go out and bust the ice every morning four or five months out of the year, cost of maintaining good pasture to reduce your feeding costs.... and you still have to pay the slaughter and packing fees. The poster who said diesel is cheaper is correct. Oh, and there's salt blocks...and vet bills....the list goes on. It's kinda like keeping a horse, except you generally don't eat a horse. But you don't generally ride a steer.... Ah hell.... Run the numbers. It may be cheaper to contract an organically grown cow or three per year. If you want a dairy animal, eventually, you may wish to amend the barn plans a little to make that easier when the time comes. And if you want a dairy animal, you'll need some kind of shelter anyhow, so maybe that's playing into it. But unless you just REALLY want to raise cattle, it is often a tough jobl to make it pay on a small scale, even if you're doing it for homesteading/healthy food reasons. Oh, and I should say...the pigs will want out more than the cows will want in. The cows will rub on the fence to the hog lot. Cows like to scratch. Telephone poles are a favorite. 24th edit: You've got a barn, right? Can't you fence off a corridor to your pasture? They'll use it. Like a hallway. For real. This may be the cheapest way to go. If you've got a barn, I cannot see building another structure unless there is no possible way to get the cows from the field to the shelter. ESPECIALLY if you want to milk eventually. That barn will be the best resource you have––you can fix a milking stall in there––AND an area for the beef cattle to shelter––with just fencing costs. Fencing is cheap compared to building a shed/barn. I agree...run the numbers...setup and maintenence won't be cheap. I run 200 head of cattle and it can be a soul sucking experience always dependant on weather, sickness, breakage, maintenence, yada yada yada..... Wait for a sale at the Food Lion and stock your freezer and pay someone to cut your grass. You'll sleep better and have more free time. IMHO 
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
But he's already got a tractor large enough to handle a round bale. The forks and round bale feeders are cheap, used, and the hay in round bales is WAY less labor-intensive to store. And cheaper. The square bales will give him better quality, usually, but I'm thinking the existing ability to move the round bales will push the economics in favor of round bales. Maybe not though. I admit that, aesthetically, I prefer the square bales, but money dictates that most farmers go with round. Agreed, but in my experience feeding round bales to 1-3 head is not very practical. You really need to be feeding a larger number of animals to keep the hay from mostly being wasted. And he is going to create some tractor ruts in his yard next spring if he is having to stay on his 4 acres while hauling around big bales of hay. You might be able to find an old hay knife and use a pitchfork to serve appropriate quantities out from larger bales but it won't be very convenient. My hay source owes me some favors and basically sells me hay/straw at under market rates. I don't think he does round bales, but I'll ask him. I'm OK with using square bales......I don't mind toting them and I can certainly use the FEL or forks to move them around. Haven't been down to the livestock auction yet......it's on my list to get there, but haven't done it yet. I certainly have no excuse.....the auction's less than a mile from our place. 
|
| I don't know how it is in your area, but I went to a seminar at Texas A&M on cattle. They told me, on small acreage, the best way to make money, was to buy feeder steers in the early spring, feed them all summer, and sell them in late fall. If you want to keep one for slaughter do it. |
|
Quoted:
I agree...run the numbers...setup and maintenence won't be cheap. I run 200 head of cattle and it can be a soul sucking experience always dependant on weather, sickness, breakage, maintenence, yada yada yada..... Wait for a sale at the Food Lion and stock your freezer and pay someone to cut your grass. You'll sleep better and have more free time. IMHO I know where you're coming from.....and my goal is to hang onto as much of my money as possible. But I like clean food whose origins I'm certain of, and I also like dealing with animals. So it kinda makes sense..... Besides, saying "stick to the meat sales at the supermarket" is kinda like saying "hey, you don't NEED an AR-15.....just stick to shooting .22s, they're cheaper to shoot and cheaper to buy!"
|
|
That's a good deal then if you can get the square bales cheaper than market. If not, a round bale feeder works great for a few head. Plop the bale down, turn the feeder over the top of it, and walk away. Very little waste. Quality does deteriorate over weeks, but they generally eat out of the center of it in my experience. If you have square bales, you can buy in quantity and store in the loft (I am assuming that barn has a loft). As long as your "favors" don't run out when you're buying 100 bales at a time. I have found there to be more waste feeding square bales in the field, than with round bales and a feeder, but the quality hay the cows eat is a little better in the long run. Of course, eventually you could get a square bale feeder for the field. Those are pretty easy to build, too. Hard to build a round bale feeder yourself. |
| For round bales just build you something to kelp it off the ground. The waste comes from setting them on the ground. They get trampled on and pissed and pooped on and it just lies there. I'll take a picture of ours tomorrow. It is what we use when we wean. Hay is one of the most expensive feed per head there is unless you're baling yourself. There are other options other than hay especially is you get enough rain and make enough grass for 2 or 3 head. |
|
Quoted:
For round bales just build you something to kelp it off the ground. The waste comes from setting them on the ground. They get trampled on and pissed and pooped on and it just lies there. I'll take a picture of ours tomorrow. It is what we use when we wean. Hay is one of the most expensive feed per head there is unless you're baling yourself. There are other options other than hay especially is you get enough rain and make enough grass for 2 or 3 head. Post up some info on it when you get time. |
|
Ok, I could be way off base here but are you trying to make your life harder and spend money, or easier and maybe have some home grown beef?
Why buy 3 steers? Figure on 50% yield and a 1000lb steer gives you 500lbs of meat. How much beef do you eat in a year? Even if you give some of it to friends and family thats alot of beef. As for selling the beef Buy one, fatten it up, eat it, and then buy another. Your not starting a breeding operation. A rule of thumb is at least 2 acres of good land per cow, more is better as they are hard on the ground. Three cows, all in the 800lb plus range will destroy 4 acres. In the winter it will be a mud hole and in the summer the ground will be like concrete. The only way to have 3 cows on 4 acres is to keep them penned up and feed them hay and grain, and that costs money. And why buy them now when you know that the grass is going to stop growing and your going to have to feed them over the winter? Buy one in early spring, like everyone else, and let it eat your pasture down all spring and summer. Near the end of summer start graining it up a little more and maybe get a few bales of alfalfa and give it a flake a day. If you bag your grass clippings when you mow your yard give it those too. Cows love yard clippings. As far as doing anything to help your pasture grow better, the best thing to do is fertalize it. And maybe lime it too. Just broadcasting seed is a waste of money as the % yield is low and actually working the ground up(ie. plowing, disking, seeding) is pretty expensive and once its done you really shouldn't have any animals on it for at least a year because the ground is soft. If the ground has never been limed thats probably the way to go as it will greatly increase growth for several years. What you want to do for fence doesn't matter too much, but 4 or 5 is better. Do make 1 or 2 of them hot. And if the cow figures out that all it has to do is push a little and it can go where it wants, or that the hot wire only hurts a little if you move real fast, just call the mobile butcher. That takes us into all the stuff about trailers and ramp and hallways. Have the steer delivered, it may cost 50 bucks but its cheaper than a trailer you'll use once a year. When the beef gets to your place, have a big bucket of grain in plain sight and start a routine of giving it a little grain every day, give it cut up apples or carrots once in awhile. Just cause your going to eat it doesn't mean you can't be friends  . Halter breaking will make life easier if it isn't already trained, this is better to do when its still young. Then when the time comes to butcher it, have a mobile butcher service come out. They kill it, clean it, and then take it back to the shop to be finished.
Start small, with one cow in the spring that goes away in the fall and build up to keeping 2 or 3 head over the winter. If you jump right into that you'll have more work and problems than you want. Good luck and good eating too.
|
|
You also should have an ag exstension office that might be able to help you with information specific to your location.
I agree with those that have suggest using your barn with a lane to your pasture and not building a structure. I also think splitting your pasture into four equal sections and rotating about once a week will make you grass last longer. I would try to not over stock on animals and always have grass for them to eat and not have to buy extra feed for them. If you goal is to raise some beef and keep your grass mowed the best managment of your grass will save you money in feed. It takes about 14-16 months to finish a beef give or take. I would feed them grass and free choice hay in the winter and grain them for the last 60 days before they are slaughtered. Buy a cross breed calf and they dont have to be steers you can eat heifers also. Heifers (feeders) will be a little cheaper as light weights but take a little more to finish.(not a big deal they all taste the same) If your calves are more than a month or two old when you get them, put up a portable corral and run a hot wire on the inside and crank up your fencer HOT for a day or two then turn them out in the pasture they will respect your fence. All I run on pasture is a single hot wire. I would recomend 3 strand barb and a single hot in the middle and make it HOT. If you look around you can probly find the stuff your looking for used a lot cheaper than buying it new like a bale ring, portable panels, head gate ect they add up. If you buy them castrated, vaccinated, and wormed all you should need to do is worm them a couple times. Cattle are not hard give them water, feed and they will do fine. Good luck |
|
Well, folks, thanks for all the good info.
After considering everything, we're holding off on cows in 2009. 
It'll take too much money, too quickly, to get up and running with it this year. Gotta do things in a stepwise fashion......maybe it'll come together for Spring 2010. Might try some pastured broilers this Fall instead.
|
|
Quoted: Well, folks, thanks for all the good info. After considering everything, we're holding off on cows in 2009. It'll take too much money, too quickly, to get up and running with it this year. Gotta do things in a stepwise fashion......maybe it'll come together for Spring 2010. Might try some pastured broilers this Fall instead. I think that makes the most sense anyway. It'll give you time to watch for deals on fencing and used equipment. |