[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Solar POWER (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 4/2/2008 6:00:04 PM EDT
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Just got done building my second solar system! This one is 8 X 130 Watt Kyocera solar panels on a pole mount! I am grid tied so I got the Xantrex xw 4024 inverter, with control panel and Auto gen Starter. I have trojan bateries all wired up and made the grid meter go in reverse today for about 6 hours! Kind of a great feeling to see the meter go in reverse! |
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I would like to see pics. If you can start a thread here you are capable of posting pictures, if you can build a solar powered setup it should be a breeze for you. Go to photobucket.com and sign up for an account. (It's free) Once you're set up upload the pictures and then if you need help on how to add pictures to your post just ask - it's real simple. One thing if you do get an account - make sure you set it to private, especially if you plan on having any pictures that you don't want the entire world to be able to access. |
Ok I am on it! Thanks! |
Thanks for sharing! Always a big help to read about a real-world project and how you did it. |
Here is where I ordered my panels from and the MX60 I have. Also ordered the FLEXmax from here. http://www.thesolar.biz/Our%20Complete%20Product%20Inventory.htm |
How do we get started on doing something like this? I have asked and asked here locally and nobody in texas seems to do it, (contractor wise). How much does a system like yours cost? thanks, joe |
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I did install with only family and friend help! I even poured all the concrete for the pole mounts. Over 80 X 80lb bags of concrete. Pole mount Pipe is 6 inch 12' long and in the hole 6' down. I had a friend (who is certified electrician) do all the final wiring and instruct me on running conduit. I did the design myself and it took two months from start to finish. 10 bucks a watt final cost and I get $2000.00 back from feds. But I am totally 100% self powered now! |
| How do these panels hold up in the weather? We'll get several hail storms over the summer. Also, how do they stand up to the weight of wet snow? If I install solar panels, they will be on my garage roof. I get sunlight there all day long, so that would be the perfect spot, but I have no experience with them and I don't know how fragile they are. |
Fantastic stuff! What is the breakdown of the boxes in your picture? I see the Xantrex inverter there in the center, is that an Outback charge controller above it? |
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But I am totally 100% self powered now!" You really can't put a price on that. We have a very similar system, utilizing 14 of the 130's. Did you use L16's for batts? Is that a track rack or normal rack? We started off with the panels on our roof but we do occasionally get some hurricanes here, so we later built a pretty sturdy ground rack. |
with envy!
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I will help anyone with their project! The batteries are the Trojan T105 cost is about $125.00 each. The Xantrax XW 4024 is only around $2200 with out options. Panles are $550.00 each. I got the solar pathfinder to see where is good place to put panels! www.solarpathfinder.com I will loan it out to anyone local! There is alot of misc wire, breakers, conduit etc. but that is bulk of system. If you are on grid currently and do no want to have backup you can go with out the batteries and save some money! Basically use the grid as your battery and turn the meter backwards all day and at night use that power you "stored" on the grid! But my goal was to not ever get an electric bill again. I did already have the diesel generator so I got the Auto gen Starter with the xantrex inverter and programmed the inverter to automatically start the generator when the batteries get below a certain level and do full recharge. Unfortuntaly so far the 1040 watt solar array can not keep up with my needs so my genny has to run for about 3 hours every 48-72 hours! I had hoped to go 4 days without the genny but maybe in the summer with longer sun hours I will have better results! |
I agree and if you look at first picture behind the array you can see pole mount for next array. I think the next array will be 12 X 200 watt system. This way I probabaly will not need to run genny unless there is a week of clouds. Battery bank is around 12ooah! Their are 24 Trojans in the current system! |
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What 200 watt panel are you looking at? I originally had KC120's but had 2 of them put out erratic readings- 9volts in full sun. Kyocera replaced the ENTIRE ARRAY (14 panels) and even sent the replacements before they sent for the bad ones!!! I've been very impressed with that company. |
A little off topic, but... You guys really need to start calling it solar power or something.... Every time I go past this (and many other simmilar posts) I think, what the hell happened to Mars or they found a new comet??? Then I get all excited and click, only to find out that one of you bought some batteries and pannels . Any way, congrats on the new set up. |
Fixed it for you! Evergreen panels are made here in the States and I think I might get there 190's next! |
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From a quick Google here is a ballpark figure. $24K for a 5.2KW Grid Tie system is pretty good. www.dmsolar.com/5000w-solar-gridtie-sy.html You can always add a charge controller and battery bank later. Split configured for grid tie/battery since grid tie can't be active during power outage. $2K from the feds unless you have a home business (That would be around $5K). The State and Local incentives. Solar Panels are coming down in price nicely. |
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If they don't already exist... Someone should start a company that installs all the panels and electrical work for a house to enable it to not pay an electrical bill. They should be well-armed and well-represented by lawyers because I imagine that power companies wouldn't like it very much. This is a sweet accomplishment and in an area I have no knowledge of, i.e. I'd no idea it was this "easy" relatively speaking, for a private citizen to do this. Cheers! |
Oh to the contrary! Power companies in most states are required to get a certain percentage of there power from alternative sources IE; solar, wind, hydro, biofuel etc. SO the loacl power companies WANT you to succed and NEED you to sell power back to the grid so THEY can make their quota with the Utility Commision. |
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Are you guys planning on pulling excess need over the grid? I've looked into solar for a while but I just can't see it being feasible yet for an average house and still maintain the same standard of living. Heck, your average AC pulls 3.3-3.6KWh per ton of cooling, are you planning on not using an AC? My worries for totally of the grid usage are not the constant burns but the high spikes you have to plan for. A good example is my entertainment center will pull 400w at full burn (watching a movie) and thats without a sub (and its not a super high end EntC by any means). My PC pulls 240w at full burn and my wifes PC is close to that. Just turning watching a movie while two people are on the computers ends up nearly swamping the output of your array. Now at night power draw would be much much lower. But since she works from home one PC is always on so that right there is 1/4th - 1/5th the arrays output :( what kind of average power draw are you using at your house? I love the whole concept of solar but its just not priced where it needs to be yet. at 10$ a watt even if the solar array was 100% efficient and produced its rated output 8 hours a day and their was zero inverter loss (lots of ifs) then at my current rate of .08c per KWh it would take 33 years to pay off (counting the 2000$ government subsidy). it needs to hit 2-3$ a watt to go mainstream. Alot of people would seriously consider something with a 6-10 year payoff. Of course, it could become affordable in reverse as well. .16c a KWh and 5$ a watt would make it a 7.5 year payoff. Since coals still cheap and abundant and some 90% of our power around here is coal based I don't suspect we will see large utility hikes around here, but who expected gas to triple in 6-7 years either? Obviously none of that matters if your goal is to go totally off-grid (an awesome goal BTW). grats on the very cool setup. 
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Have you adjusted your elevation? Automatic trackers are nice, but expensive. With my dads 12kw system, we found we can get another 20% a lot of the time just adjusting the elevation (fixed azimuth) quarterly. Obviously, having it track in both axis would be nice, but doing that with 12kw was out of their price range. I'll post pictures of their system. It is a SF wet dream. They have enough juice to always spin their meter backwards while running everything, including a geothermal heat pump. They opted for the grid tie as a hedge while avoiding messing with batteries, which in the overall life of a solar system, usually have to be replaced several times. |
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In response to the two above posts! I agree with both of you! Electricity is NOT getting cheaper and its not going too imho. Solar panels last for a looooooong time (the ones from the 70's still put out power) Can I run an a/c unit for 8 hours a day 7 days a week with my system?>>>>heck no!!! I spent 6 months just learning how to conserve BEFORE i designed my system! I trained myself NOT to leave lights on.....not to leave on air compressor overnight...etc I also insulated my h2o heater, put timer on h20 heater etc.. I even have timers on my freezer so it does not run all the time. When I go in a room I turn on light when I leave I turn it off! I run all cfl's instead of incadecents. I was lucky to already have diesel genny so when my batteries are dead and there is no sun I just run the genny for 2-3 hours and charge the system. And since I make the biodiesel the fuel cost is minimal. The cool thing about the system is you can see exactly how much power you are using at any given time and you can see how much charge you are getting from the panels. I had my system usage down to 15 watts at one point just to see how low I could go. And I have spiked usage up to 3800 watts...and I could just see the batteries drain fast! When batteries are charged to full and the sun is out I can produce just enogh to run the shop and sell back to the grid! "stick it to the man" |
Hey, about how long would it be, before the system pays for itself? |
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Grid tie PV is the best solution for the average person. Once installed it just does it's thing. No battery maintenance to worry about, no replacement costs in the short run. And a grid supply of backup power when the PV is not enough. To make this really work you have to attack from both the supply and demand sides (electrically speaking). A PV system is a great investment but to maximize the benefits you have to look at power consumption. Using CFL/ LED lighting, Solar Domestic Hot Water, replacing old appliances, eliminating standby loads, etc. You'd be amazed how much power is consumed by all those wall warts that power all those electronics. Heating water is the second largest energy consumer in a house. The payoff on a SDHW system is only 3-5 years. And a PV pumped system works even when there is no power. You can upsize a SDHW system and employ it as a radiant floor heating system as well. Depending on latitude and climate the water heating portion can provide most or all of the heating needs. Solar technologies are suitable for every place in the U.S. Since the most hot water will be available at sundown, adjusting schedules is in order to maximize the benefit. Doing laundry, showering, doing dishes, in the evening for example. |
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I agree, and efficiency is something I am working on right now. Sadly the computers are one thing that can't really be cut out of the equation or really reduced on the power consumption. They can be powered off over night though and thats something I'll be doing more of (running a PC overnight actually costs a fair bit monthly). I'm very interested in the SDHW and what kind of costs go into a setup like that. I hope to be able to build a custom home designed around efficiency in the next 5-8 years and thats one area I have been looking for more info on. Do you have any good links you can share? Also (slightly on topic), I installed a motion detecting light switch in the garage but it doesn't seem to like electronicly ballasted CFLs (IE, all of them). Any suggestions? Right now I just have 2 100w bulbs in their since it only sees 20-30 mins of on time a day, but its likely to see more during the summer.
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As for solar panels, I am not sure where you are getting your numbers. I am having a 9.9 Kw system installed now. I am getting a state rebate of $4.35 a watt, with inverters, installation, and everyting. it comes out to about $8 a watt without the rebate. my time to payoff is 3 and 1/2 years. this is in a contract, signed and sealed. Also do you realize that there are some things that have to be done in the design phase to gain safety and maximium effienccy. The system with mutiple inverters, need to be balanced. I an using a company that has installed commercial and residential systems for years. To also add...my house was designed to be high efficency it has R24 walls, all Energy star includding TVs and the Stereo, I have a split HVAC system, 95% on heat and SER 21 for the cooling. The solar panels face east and are 34' in the air. The south wall is sheltered with trees for the summer sun. The north wall has one window, all windows ae Low E top of the line. It has a high efficeny fireplace that can heat the house. |
The link above to incentives has all the details. IIRC, the federal incentive is a one time tax credit, but you can get a seperate one for a PV system and another for SDHW. And a third for something like a windwill or micro-hydro IIRC. That link has a lot of info. There is a map of your state then each state is split up by city or power company. The state and local incentives are where the big rebates are. Some pay by watt of installed system, which maximizes your up front rebate, some pay production incentives per KWh generated, which pays over the longer term. So if electricity costs $0.08 per KWh (8 cents) they'll pay something like $0.15 as a production incentive. Some pay only on the net excess you pump into the grid, some pay on the absolute production. As I said it varies widely. A lot of them add up, cumulative federal, state local, power company, etc. There's even small scale things like incentives for replacing appliances with moer efficient ones, or adding a water heater blanket. It all adds up. In my opinion this is where RE will take off, when it is financially feasible for the majority of people and as hassle free as possible. The technology is there and mature. We're going to get no where with the hippie in your face "I'm saving the Earth so I'm better than You." rhetoric. (rant off). I subscribe to Home Power, which is a good read with a lot of info (you just have to ignore the single hippie do-gooder paragraph that seems to be included in every article). Tehre are a lot of do-it-yourself projects and lot's of advertising. |
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Real efficiency takes some detective work. Get a KWH meter and plug it into things. The standby loads on electronics is one I try to get rid of. I do like using the remote for the DVD and TV in the main living room, so I pay that cost. But the TV in the guest room is on a power strip. When no one is in there, which is 90 percent of the time, I kill the power to the strip. The TV sucks 1 watt in standby mode waiting for someone to hit the power button. That's 24Wh/day or 720Wh/mo. Thyat is a small amount of power, but it adds up. All the battery chargers for my tools in the garage, cell phone chargers, PCs, etc. It can amount to quite a bit. You can save power with your PC by using a laptop which are extremely power efficient by necessity. For a desktop, use an LCD screen and set it to hibernate when not in use and kill the system when you won't need it for a long time (overnight). Unless you play games you probably don't need that super 200W blazing video card, etc. either. Small gains add up. Home Power has a complete electronic library of back issues. the ones back to about issue 90 or so are the most current. The ones before that were more DIY in nature as RE was maturing. They have a searchable database of articles. I poured over the SDHW articles and learned quite a bit. Let look for some links to free articles regarding SDHW. BRB...  ETA: Installing Solar Water Heating (Also look at the other lessons here) Solar Water Heating Calculator This guy below is quite a hippie but these articles are pretty good. The first one is obvious he didn't do his homework or research, he ran in to a lot of issues that are addressed in most of the how-to articles. Solar Heating in Maine Solar Heat Upgrade Home Power Article Solar Hot Water Basics DIY Solar Heating Links That should get you started. Since I see you are in KY, the link to TVA Production Incentives for PV. $0.15/kWh is pretty good. Consider a 5kW installed system, an average solar day for most of the country is 4 hours (have to look at you particular locale). That's 20 kWh/day x 30 days = 600 kWh = $90/month incentive. You only pay for the electricty you use over and above that (average use is somewhere ~1000kWh/month unless you have a large family). But you pay for that at the regular or even a a reduced rate (I didn't look at the fine details for TVA) of ~$0.08/kWh (nationwide average) = $32 electric bill - you net $54/month back to you. If you used ~1700kWh/month you would still break even. These incentives won't be around for ever, as more systems get installed they'll go away, But I think the time is right that we'll see more a larger incentives over the next few years to get more systems online.
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I am working on a hot water system right now. It will cost me less than $200 when done. I hope it works. I am taking an old hot water tank core (mine, replaced with an instant hot gas system.) painting it black and putting it into an insulated box facing the sun. It will "pre-heat" water before it goes through the gas heater. I hope this will reduce an already lower bill from the upgrade to a negligible amount while keeping the convenience of reliable hot water. Next stop is starting a PV system once I get some cash. |
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Anone got any ideas on this sale? www.affordable-solar.com/solar-panels-by-the-pallet.htm |
Usually a good deal and sometimes they have blemishes but so what! |