Posted: 1/27/2008 8:58:30 AM EDT
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So I'm driving home and had a thought... What to do after a major event that completely disrupts the country and all the car batteries are dead. I'm thinking 2-5 years later and it's still no real progress from whatever happened. By then all the batteries in cars will have died of old age and there will not be anymore coming in to replace them... What to do? |
Yet if you live many miles from the nearest doctor or other need such as trading post or water supply you will need wheeled transport. Only way to live the 18th century is if the majority of the population dies off. |
what scenario are you envisioning here that is going to cause all batteries to go dead in 2-5 years? even absent oil, there is solar power to recharge them, hydroelectric power to recharge them, and so on. so when you say "dead", do you mean "no charge"? and, believe it or not, society existed before electrity -- there were just no PS3's on sale at the Walmart. finally, the lifespan of a lead-acid automotive battery is anywhere from 3-10 years. the lifespan of the lead-acid batteries used in other applications, such as telecomm power backup, is far longer. it is not unusual to have telephone company central office battery strings last 15 to 20 years. ar-jedi |
| I had a '67 Landrover with a crank. The starter went on me, and a new one was $250 and I was broke, so I ended up crankstarting it for almost 6 months. It was actually very easy and always started right up, with about half a crank on compression. Best truck I ever had. I would love to have a crank on my Tacoma JIC. |
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GOOGLE: The most important mechanism for Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) production from a nuclear detonation is the ionization of air molecules by gamma rays generated from the explosion. These gamma rays ionize the air molecules by interacting with the air molecules to produce positive ions and recoil electrons called Compton electrons. This pulse of energy, which produces a powerful electromagnetic field, particularly within the vicinity of the weapon burst, is called an electromagnetic pulse. EMP can also be produced from non-nuclear sources, such as electromagnetic bombs, or E-bombs. High-altitude nuclear detonations and electromagnetic bombs can generate EMP that has the potential to damage or destroy electronic devices over widespread areas. Electric power systems would also be at risk from surges produced by such weapons. However, the EMP from a kiloton-range surface nuclear explosion would not be expected to produce serious damage outside the radius of severe destruction from blast. A 1.4 Megaton bomb launched about 250 miles above Kansas would destroy most of the electronics that were not protected in the entire Continental United States. During the brief return to atmospheric testing in 1962, a 1.4 megaton nuclear weapon was detonated over Johnston Island at an altitude of about 250 miles. The effects of EMP were observed in Hawaii, 800 miles east of the detonation. Streetlights and fuses failed on Oahu and telephone service was disrupted on the Island of Kauai. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Is EMP Radioactive? EMP is not radioactive, but a pulse of energy produced as a side effect of a nuclear detonation or electromagnetic bomb. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What Are the Health Effects? EMP has no known effect on living organisms, but can temporarily or permanently disable electrical and electronic equipment. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What Are the Effects on Electronics and Cars? When "detonated," an EMP weapon produces a pulse of energy that creates a powerful electromagnetic field capable of short-circuiting a wide range of electronic equipment, particularly computers, satellites, radios, radar receivers and even civilian traffic lights. Since EMP is electromagnetic energy traveling at the speed of light, all of the vulnerable electronic equipment in the detonation zone could be affected simultaneously. Society has entered the information age and is dependent on electronic systems that work with components that are very susceptible to excessive electric currents and voltages. Many of these electronic systems are controlled in some way by semiconductors. Semiconductor devices fail when they encounter an EMP because of the local heating that occurs. Failure of semi-conductive chips could destroy industrial processes, railway networks, power and phone systems, and access to water supplies. Commercial computer equipment is particularly vulnerable to EMP effects. Computers used in data processing systems, communications systems, displays, industrial control applications, including road and rail signaling, and those embedded in military equipment, such as signal processors, electronic flight controls and digital engine control systems, are all potentially vulnerable to the EMP effect. Other electronic devices and electrical equipment may also be destroyed by the EMP effect. Telecommunications equipment can be highly vulnerable and receivers of all varieties are particularly sensitive to EMP. Therefore radar and electronic warfare equipment, satellite, microwave, UHF, VHF, HF and low band communications equipment and television equipment are all potentially vulnerable to the EMP effect. Cars with electronic ignition systems/ and ignition chips are also vulnerable. Some other notable collectors of EMP include railroad tracks, large antennas, pipes, cables, wires in buildings, and metal fencing. Although materials underground are partially shielded by the ground, they are still collectors, and these collectors deliver the EMP energy to some larger facility. This produces surges that can destroy the connected device, such as, power generators or long distance telephone systems. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What Can Be Done to Protect Electronics There are two basic ways to protect or harden items against EMP effects. The first method is metallic shielding. Shields are made of a continuous piece of metal such as steel or copper. A metal enclosure generally does not fully shield the interior because of the small holes that are likely to exist. Therefore, this type of shielding often contains additional elements to create the barrier. Commonly, only a fraction of a millimeter of a metal is needed to supply adequate protection. This shield must completely surround the item to be hardened. The second method, tailored hardening, is a more cost-effective way of hardening. In this method, only the most vulnerable elements and circuits are redesigned to be more rugged. The more rugged elements will be able to withstand much higher currents. This method has shown unpredictable failures in testing, though it is thought it may be useful to make existing systems less vulnerable. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- EMP As a Weapon The non-lethal nature of electromagnetic weapons makes their use far less politically damaging than that of conventional munitions, and therefore broadens the range of military options available. For weapons purposes EMP producing sources other than nuclear detonations have been successfully developed. Several nations, with United States at the forefront, are reported to have developed non-nuclear bombs capable of generating EMPs. Electromagnetic bombs (E-bombs) are specialized, non-nuclear tools designed to destroy information systems. These devices are primarily intended for battlefield application, and their effects would be restricted to a relatively small area. An EMP shock wave can be produced by a device small enough to fit in a briefcase. High Power Electromagnetic Pulse generation techniques and High Power Microwave technology have matured to the point where practical E-bombs are becoming technically feasible, with new applications in both Strategic and Tactical Information Warfare. Although much of this work is classified, it's believed that current efforts are based on using high-temperature superconductors to create intense magnetic fields. The development of conventional E-bomb devices allows their use in non-nuclear confrontations to defeat an enemy without causing loss of life. Regardless of the method of delivery, experts agree that EMPs can be powerful enough to cripple electronic wiring and circuitry over a geographic area as large as several square miles, posing a real threat to the nation's critical infrastructure. In addition, the Defense Department's reliance on satellites and commercial computer equipment to conduct real-time command and control of forces around the world also puts military operations at risk, experts say. It is this aspect of the EMP effect which is of military significance, as it can result in irreversible damage to a wide range of electrical and electronic equipment, particularly computers and radio or radar receivers. IF YOU LEAVE YOUR CAR BATTERY DISCONNECTED WILL THIS HAMPER EMP EFFECTS? |
it has nothing to with whether or not the car battery is connected. ps: before ANYONE posts anything about what the effects of EMP are going to be on a electrical circuit (or vehicle, or Aimpoint, or ...), please state your prior electrical engineering E&M education, industry/test lab experience in EMC/EMI mitigation, TEMPEST, ESD/EFT, and RADHARD design, what the biggest anechoic rooms and TEM/GTEM cells were that you have worked in, and what equipment (EUT) you have evaluated at E and H field strengths above 100V/m and across frequencies from 1Hz to 10GHz. ar-jedi |
Strangely enough, first hand knowledge is not needed to comment. I can read, and can interpret testing done by others. Frankly, your tone belongs more in GD than here. 
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turn down your "dickhead warning" radar -- that's not my intent. this is not GD. this is a technical forum. if this was another technical forum and the subject was different, say, actual combat effectiveness of a given mil cartridge, the folks posting "i heard from my brother's friend whose cousin's sister's boyfriend was once in an airplane over Iraq that the 5.56mm NATO round sucks" would get stomped on, and rightly so. and that's analogous to the problem with discussing EMP as well -- too many "wives tales" propagated by folks way out of their depth. i go into some detail on the subject of EMP towards the bottom of my Ham Radio 101 thread; see the bottom of page 1, the post titled "EMP and ham radio" at ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=10&f=22&t=604477&page=1 regards, ar-jedi |
Come on folks tone down a bit. No need for a lock. Anyway, why won't it work it you disconnect the battery?? Also states in the above article, that you could also use a metal barrier to hamper the effects. I'm thinking like a storage unit or shipping container. |
simplified... EMP, or more specifically NEMP, is a high energy, broadband radio frequency field radiating outward from the detonation point and also as a result of the field interacting with the ionosphere. this field, when it passes over conductors (wires, cables, antenna, gutters, guy wires, etc) induces a voltage onto these conductors. it is this induced voltage that causes damage (latent, or permanent). the fact that the equipment was powered on or not has no bearing on the extent of the damage, if any.
it's not that simple. a truly EMP-proof container (called a Faraday cage) is sealed on all 6 sides and there are no "electrical gaps" of any type along any edge nor any holes in any surface. gaps along the shipping container door create what are called "slot antennas" which re-radiate the RF field into the inside of the container. will the attenuation from the container be sufficient to prevent damage to the electrical devices within? only analysis, in-situ testing, and a thorough understanding of the failure mechanisms can tell. experiment: take a handheld AM/FM radio, and tune it to a local music station. turn it up loud. now, walk aorund the house/office, and place it inside metal filing cabinets, inside the refrigerator, oven, microwave, breadbox, etc. can you still hear the music? if so, it's not a good shielded enclosure. if not, it's a decent shielded enclosure at one frequency range of interest, 88-108MHz. that does not mean, whatsoever, that whatever is inside will withstand the potentially much higher field strengths and broadband spectra generated by an EMP event. |
Then we really have no reasonable protection in the event of an EMP attack? |
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ps: excellent thread on EMP: archive.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=123&t=521338 ar-jedi |
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Pretty hard to build a faraday cage around a vehicle - besides the fact that it isn't grounded... I asked here once if carb set-ups and distributors from old Toyota 22R engine will fit my newer Taco (They won't). First I've heard that EMP affects batteries. I thought it just fried electronics. Good info ar-jedi - but I'm an electrician and a former EE major and reading this stuff on my day off is like doing homework! As far as batteries go, there is evidence that the Sumerians built batteries, so I think we could recharge them by changing the acid. Again, I don't understand what it would be about EMP that would affect a battery at all - doesn't make sense to me. The electronics running the car would be fried or course, but I don't have the funds to build a dedicated faraday cage to store spare computers for my Taco in. Guess I'll be walking...
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OK, no prob. I spend too much time over there, but your initial post came on a little strong, a little "I am the expert, so shut up and listen". Everything you have said in relation to EMP is true as far as I know. |
Hey guys, on a softer side, I have thought and discussaed the prospect of EMP before with my friends and co-workers, and while I have worried over my Jeep a bit, my major concern has been the fact that my security safe has an electronic lock on it. While I love the fact that I can get to all my "friends" quickly, I have wondered if I would be better replacing the electronic lock with a good old fashion tumbler dial. Anyone got any thoughts on the matter?
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Easier and cheaper to buy a mid-80's CUCV if you want a vehicle that's not affected by EMP. My husband and I each have one. We bought them because they're good, reliable, cheap, no-frills transportation, not because of worries about EMP. |
Interesting. You don't own the website, but you'd like to rule it. Back on-topic: a Faraday Cage can protect electrical items from stray voltage. Build a big enough one, and park your car in it. |
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OK, Faraday Cage question: Will aluminum foil do? If I take my Russian Radiation Detectors and wrap them in heavy foil, multiple times with no gaps, will it protect them at reasonable over-voltage levels? If we come under an EMP attack, there is a good chance we will get hit at lower levels, too. |
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Don't just worry about batteries, you have to consider all the stuff on a vehicle that will age even if not used. Rubber tires and coolant and all that other fun stuff that will age. For batteries I don't worry too much. You can still find batteries that require you to add acid and charge them before using them. I figure these keep for a long while until you put them together. Even without a battery the stickshift vehicles can be roll started depending on what they are. Personally I will be out of fuel most likely and riding my mountain bike but once again I come back to tires very quickly. Personally I expect people to get things rolling pretty quickly because we like a lot of what we have and I personally like being specialized in my job instead of trying to operate a homestead where I have to do everything and don't have enough hours left over to have some fun. |
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Perhaps we should buy some spare car batteries that come dry with the electrolyte in a plastic container if they still make them that way. That would keep a long time. I am no expert in EMP (nor do I have an PHD in EE), but what I have read would lead me to believe that the short wire runs in your car would not induct that much power from an EMP event. The car is protected from it own cranking transients, which can be pretty severe in itself. The ignition coil is firing at over 30,000 volts to the plugs. The wiring inside the car is also somewhat shielded by the body panels. The battery itself should act as a low resistance load to hold the induced voltages down if the car electronics are connected to it at the time of the pulse. Long wire runs like telephone lines and power lines will bring you up close and personal with the "ZAP". Most of the damages that have been posted by others relates to power and phone line effects. The Soviets supposedly had a power station burn down due to a 2500 ampere surge getting inside after a high level EMP inducing test. It started a fire in a switching panel. I presume it went through the lightning protection without being slowed down or reduced. Ar-Jedi's rise time measurements, perhaps? This means that our ham radio repeaters and public safety repeaters will be toast. If not from the antenna side, then from the power lead side. I can remember as a child being told not to take a bath during a thunderstorm. This was due to all the plumbing in our house being cast iron or copper. It would bring a ground surge right in to the bathroom. So if your house is plumbed with copper, is there a EMP threat? Then again, the Starfish Prime tests reportedly didn't burn down any houses! I would say keep a spare ignition module, inductive pickup, and CPU module for your car in a steel ammo can to be sure. I am not sure where you would be going after a EMP strike. If the detonation was anywhere inland, the effects will extend for hundreds of miles in every direction. The power mains are going to be down, fuel will be scarce, anything like telephone/internet service gone for months, retail ordering, and banking systems will be down. Sound like a good time to start gardening. RS |
Look to data back up facilities for the long lasting batteries. I just got out of the 'battery back up power' field to go back to school. The typical acid-mat type batteries, like optimas, smaller telco, and ups batteries (think sealed, non-spillable types) were warratied for 5-10 years. I've seen those types of batteries last 2 years, and I've pulled some out that finally gave up the ghost after 16 years. The larger (much larger: like 300-700#, 2V 1400-5000AH) wet-acid filled type of cells were warrantied more in the 10-15 year range(with the AT&T round cells in the 20-25 year range). These two types of batteries last the longest if , kept at 77* year roundkept clean, and charged every year or two. I'm not too familiar with NiCd and Alkaline type batteries, as they are usually much smaller, and are there for not really worth much in larger scale power back up operations. |
Buy a ranch, and a horse 
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