Posted: 10/31/2007 8:27:31 AM EDT
|
Not a caliber or rifle debate... I have a Bushmaster DCM with a great two-stage trigger. I have never shot a "stock" AR trigger. I am building a home defense carbine. Does a match trigger compromise reliability in favor of speed/performance? What kind of triggers are people putting in their go-to AR's? I suppose the correct answer is "what works for Uncle Sam will work for you", but I don't know what is going into, say, an SPR or SAM-R versus a general-issue M16A4. (ETA: And yes, I understand that the above three weapons are examples of rifles and not carbines; I am just viewing the first two as examples of "all the best gear" while the later (may be) more of "lowest-bid components".) Thanks for any insight, WhyTanFox EATA: Answers of "STFU and buy a RRA LPK" will not be taken as insults :-) |
|
Some trigger are more prone to issues than other. It does not matter if the trigger has set screws for adjustment or not, that only effects the reliability if Billy Bob decides to screw up your trigger by "fixin it" and screws up adjustments. While many adjustbale triggers are less reliable it is not just the fact a trigger is adjustable or not that determines if it is reliable or not. In the worst case you should blue locktite adjustments so they wont loosen or be easily "adjusted" by someone if they are adjustable and that solves that issue. We do it all the time with BUIS which require locktite and never think twice about it. The military SPR/SAM and varios SR-25 variant rifles have KAC 2 stage triggers in them. I have one that I just sold used for $190 but they normally cost $275-325 new. The only time mine became misadjusted was whenI sent it off to be installed in a rifle I had built. It came back missing the first stage and needed to be readjusted. I have a Geissele high speed trigger and it is without a doubt the very best trigger you can get for an AR. It is set with minimum first stage length and reset. Much shorter than any other 2 stage trigger I have ever used. I can use it in close and fast and it feels no different than a milspec trigger (other than being lighter) and you dont even notice it being two stages shooting close and fast. With a KAC you still had noticably different trigger than a milspec single stage but I still prefered it for the added long range capability. The adjustments on the Geissele are so hard to move it almost bends the allen keys. It will not come loose even with no locktite... ever. The trigger is made of better materials and is serial numbered on every part. It is not cheap at $275 but the DMR version is IMO the best trigger you can put on an AR. The AMU has been swapping the KAC for the Geissele as the KAC units wear out. KAC and Geisssele are the only triggers used by the military that are not the normal USGI single stage units. New non adjustable 2 stage Geissele full auto triggers are going into many SF weapons in the near future. There are many non adjustable 2 stage trigger who are not made to the same standards of fit, finish or metallurgy. The two worst offenders are probably RRA and Bushmaster (soory). Both have had issues with losing the first stage and becoming mush due to wear. I have also seen multiple reports of failing to return forward after being pulled. Still it is more likely to be trouble free than have issues but you asked about "the MOST reliable and BEST" Milspec triggers are only inexpensive, surface harded, cheap triggers with plenty of slop to try to ensure reliable function at the expense of feel, weight and precision. Brouhaha, the ammo forum moderator, had a Colt semi FCG snap the hammer in half because the trigger was made of inferior parts. It is a rare occurance but only happened because of the materials used in USGI FCGs. He has switched all his triggers to Accuracy Speaks single stage units. They are very crisp and very light and have no adjustments at all to have to locktite. Since they have no adjustments they require fitting or disconnector fit issues can cause doubles. They are still very reliable and cost under $150. A best buy if you are wanting an upgrade for a SHTF rifle and are willing to do a little fitting or send it in to Accuracy Speaks to have it fit in your rifle. Geissele is coming out with a non adjustable 2 stage which will be $150. The benefit is a great, simple, drop in trigger that needs no removal of the safety or fitting or adjusting to install. The negative is it will be heavier than the high speed Geissele and have a longer take up and reset than the Geissele high speed units. Personally, I am not interested in that trigger. I like the advantages of the adjustable Geissele and that is all I will use in ANY AR I ever own from now on. It is the most reliable, best feeling, most versatile trigger you can put in an AR for SHTF use, match use, or any other use. Once it is set up correctly it will run without issue and offer a feel, reliability, and consistancy unmatched by any other trigger. If you are already used to a 2 stage you will not like shooting the single stage trigger at long ranges. It will have multiple false releases due to creep and it will be heavier. It should be reliable for the most part if all you want to due is trigger mash at close ranges. Be sure to put some rounds through it before stashing to ensure you dont have a trigger with bad metallurgy. Bad triggers will fail in the first few hundred rounds or they will last the life of the rifle for the most part. A USGI trigger... no matter what anyone tells you, is not the BEST SHTF trigger you can have. It is just the "cheapest" trigger you can have. |
|
I would stick with a STOCK, Box STOCK, NOT DICKED WITH, Perfectly normal Trigger. There is not a whole hell of a lot that the fancy ones can do that the stock one cannot. It is not a reliability issue at all to be honest. Just a better trigger for what gets you down. The Stock trigger is less accident prone, and in court won't be billed as a "Hair Trigger" |
That is interesting - I like mine, and was not aware that there were problems with the RRA triggers. I have two rifles, but both are pretty light on wear since we have only had them a year or two. I'll watch out for this, but don't think it will be a problem. I hope :) Mike |
|
Stock LPK trigger from a quality source, i.e. RRA, Sabre, Colt... Two stage triggers are really designed for match/precision rifles and should be left there in my opinion. Think about if SHTF your nerves will be up and the heavy stock trigger may be a good thing for safety reasons. |
|
If you are truly in a SHTF scenario, you are going to be under great stress and in unusual situations. All these conditions degrade fine motor skills. Cold-weather gloves don't exactly help, either. Could have both in combination. I submit that in such cases, a trigger that has too-light a pull weight can be a liability instead of an asset. Light Match triggers are fine for the range and sniper applications, but less than optimum in most other scenarios. If you can find a reliable high-quality two-stage adjustable trigger with a WIDE range of adjustments, then perhaps that would do if it was adjusted to a moderate weight of pull and a reasonable amount of first stage travel. I would shy away from single stage triggers given your intended application. I think that what you will find is that a clean, crisp two-stage trigger with a heavy to moderate weight of pull will suit your stated needs best. Even a smoothed-out, crisp, high quality OEM trigger would be suitable. I'd stay away from dedicated Match triggers, though. The OEM trigger is a compromise between cost, ND considerations, and feel/accuracy, and built to accomodate the lowest common denominator. Depending on YOUR level of training/expertise/stress handling you might be able to shade some of the OEM specs a bit. The trick is to not overestimate your capabilities. In a SHTF scenario, you probably can't get a replacement unti that will do the job better than your first guess. Personally I'd rather have a clean,crisp if somewhat heavy pull trigger than a trigger that was too light and susceptible to an ND or required it to be fiddled with. YMMV FWIW, I currently have a Krieger/Millazo trigger in my AR. It's made of genuine unobtanium, and most others are compared to it, usually unfavorably. It's a fully adjustable match trigger, and the best made so far. Some say the Giselle is equal, but I've yet to read a head-to-head unbiased comparison. If TSHTF, I might re-install my OEM Colt trigger parts. Be assured that they have been "massaged' a bit and are clean and crisp indeed. Maybe not. I know how to adjust my K-M to a 'field' status as opposed to a 'range' status. YMMV. Here's a question for you: If you cannot take your rifle and with good milsurp ball ammo shoot an inch or under at 25M from all positions, you shouldn' be thinking new trigger, but should be thinking training. Go to an Appleseed. Gear comes and goes, and there is always the lure of some magical gizmo that will somehow solve all your shooting problems. BTDT. Please take the advice of someone who's wasted time and money on BS gear solutions and get some good training NOW. Appleseed. Skill and knowledge last your lifetime, and are transferrable to any firearm you might happen to have. Appleseed. |
|
I have a tuned RRA trigger from www.whiteoakprecision.com in the AR I used for highpower competition, but I wouldn't want it in my go-to carbine. It's a great trigger for competition, never had an issue with it, but when it comes to reliability I'd stake my life on, I don't want anything in there except your basic single-stage trigger. ANY two-stage trigger can go south on you, and that can mean anything from turning into a single stage to refusing to re-set after a shot. Mr. Murphy dictates it will happen at the worst possible time. Sniper rifle? Sure, put a two-stage in there. That's why my highpower AR would be if needed; I have a scope on it now. But for home defense or SHTF use, the likelihood of needing long-range precision is real low, and the need for drop-dead reliability is real high. |
|
First, i want to thank everybody for the great responses. For this build I'm going to go with an RRA single-stage trigger, for all of the reasons listed (and can mostly be summarized as "reduced liability"). DevL, thanks for the insight into what the military is using these days. I knew that the Bushy DCM trigger wasn't well-regarded over the long term, and after it finally craps out I'll look into the Geissele NM trigger. Your point about premature failure in USGI triggers is well taken, and I'll be sure to flog the snot out of this rifle before branding it reliable. raf, an Appleseed is on my short-list of "must do's". Thanks again to everyone who took the time to post. -WhyTanFox |