Posted: 8/4/2016 12:03:53 PM EDT
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So I'm batting around which long-range caliber I want to start using. Right now I have a couple of 5.56 ARs (a 16" and a 20"),and a 1903A3 in 30-06. Looking at either a .308 or 6.5 Grendel in an AR pattern rifle. Here's where I stand thus far:
Weight - 6.5 beats .308 easily Performance - Essentially the same out to, what, 600 yards or a little more. 6.5 gets better after that. I have a place that I can shoot up to 800 yards or so. Availability - .308 is obviously more common and offers far more factory loading options. 6.5 has cheaper factory loadings available Long term someone should be set up to reload either round. Reloading - .308 has more easily obtainable components (see above), but the Grendel supposedly is easier on brass and uses about half the powder from what I've read. What else is there folks...what am I missing that I haven;t thought of yet? Also, thoughts on or reasons why you would (or did) pick one over the other. |
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First of all, those are cartridges, not calibers. 6.5 and .30 are calibers, 6.5 Grendel and .308 Winchester are cartridges.
Guys shoot competitions out to 600 yds. with the .223 cartridge and the lowly 69gr. SMK, so there's your answer there. You'll need a 1:9" twist barrel, however. Components and ammo are ubiquitous, cheaper and easier to find than either the .308 Win., or the 6.5 Grendel. Remember, while the 6.5mm bullets are slicker than snot, the Grendel doesn't shoot the heavies in the class. You're stuck down around the 123gr versions, IIRC. If you step up to a 1:8", or 1:7" twist barrel, you can get many of the .224" 75gr. bullets to work, so you'll get longer ranges and more energy, for hunting. I'm a reloader and reload the .308 Win, the .223 Rem. and I've loaded a bunch of .260 Rem. for a buddy years back, so I'm kind of familiar with the various calibers and weight classes. If you just want something to play with, sticking to either the .308 Win., or the 6.5 Grendel, the components for the Win. will be easier to source going forward. You might spend a bit more on powder and bullets, but you can find a lot of 1x pimpy brass for not a lot of cash. If you want a badass long range semi, get your AR chambered in .260 Rem. (or 6.5 Credmore) and buying an accurate barrel and you might have a 1200 yd. laser beam with the right components. Chris |
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Quoted:
Why do you feel you need a larger rifle? What are you planning on using it for? To hunt deer, hogs, coyotes. To shoot farther than my 20"AR. Just to have. Of course, I would like something that is at least somewhat practical if there is a long-term shortage of some kind. 6.5 Grendel ammo is becoming more available, but it will be a long time (if ever) before anything catches .308 in that regard. That's why I mention reloading...if you run out of components in a true SHTF scenario and you're picking up ammo off the 'battlefield" you can pick up weapons just as easily. |
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Have you considered .277 Wolverine. 6.8 pills in a .223/5.56 case. works with standard AR parts. There is a thread on here that describes it. you will have to reload your own but it is like .300 blackout in that regards.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_121/636402__277_Wolverine__6_8_in_a_5_56_Case_.html&page=18 |
| i've had quite a few builds over the years (no 6.5 grendel yet) the .308 ar definitly was easier with distance over the 5.56 but it also liked to eat componets. lately I've really grown to like my mini recce build. with 77's and a 1.5-5 leupold I have no issues banging a 2/3 ipsc at 600. even if the wind is blowing i'm sure I could send a string of fire down range and make a hit. |
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I will admit that I am very partial to anything running a 6.5mm bullet. So I am biased.
I really think that the possibility of ammo supply post SHTF is vastly over rated. Need proof? We never had a real SHTF event, but it has been near impossible to find .22 LR for the past three years. Its only now just coming back. And that is .22 LR, possibly the most manufactured round on the planet. Not a real scare, not a real SHTF, a cartridge made by the Billion, and they are impossible to find. When we hit a real shtf event, the odds of finding and buying or trading into ammo are what, near zero? Oddly enough, the odd ball calibers frequently seem 'undesired'. There aren't many of them out there, but what is on the shelf stays on the shelf. The days of cheap milsurp ammo seem over too. I think shooters have been through too many Assault Weapon Bans and other politically caused bullshit scares. As a result, we stock ammo deep. I'm not seeing Guatemalan M183 ammo at $22/battle pack anymore. And Im not seeing cheap milsurp 7.62 nato either. You can but win or rem 147 FMJ, but prices are pretty much the same as they are for wolf Grendel. No savings.... If you reload, and if you plan on stocking reloads, the grendel is the way to go. You can buy components marginally cheaper. Brass is currently $.60-.70 each on sale for each caliber. Bullets are usually a tad cheaper in 6.5mm. And it uses less powder. What you end up with is a platform that is lighter, can carry more ammo,can stock the same or more ammo for the same money, and a cartridge that has better performance with the 6.5. Quite frankly, I suspect many of us would shoot the 6.5 better. Less recoil in a light weight platform. I know we are all testosterone laden he-men here, and none of us shoot anything less than a super duper belted magnum , but I've been using a light Model Seven on whitetails for near a quarter century now. And while its only a lowly 308, its a light rifle and it thumps damned hard for such a modest caliber. And based on what I'm seeing at the range with all the fellows shooting there, I suspect most of us would shoot a 6.5 better than our heavier guns. The 6.5 is definitely back on target faster. |
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Quoted:
I will admit that I am very partial to anything running a 6.5mm bullet. So I am biased. I really think that the possibility of ammo supply post SHTF is vastly over rated. Need proof? We never had a real SHTF event, but it has been near impossible to find .22 LR for the past three years. Its only now just coming back. And that is .22 LR, possibly the most manufactured round on the planet. Not a real scare, not a real SHTF, a cartridge made by the Billion, and they are impossible to find. When we hit a real shtf event, the odds of finding and buying or trading into ammo are what, near zero? Oddly enough, the odd ball calibers frequently seem 'undesired'. There aren't many of them out there, but what is on the shelf stays on the shelf. The days of cheap milsurp ammo seem over too. I think shooters have been through too many Assault Weapon Bans and other politically caused bullshit scares. As a result, we stock ammo deep. I'm not seeing Guatemalan M183 ammo at $22/battle pack anymore. And Im not seeing cheap milsurp 7.62 nato either. You can but win or rem 147 FMJ, but prices are pretty much the same as they are for wolf Grendel. No savings.... If you reload, and if you plan on stocking reloads, the grendel is the way to go. You can buy components marginally cheaper. Brass is currently $.60-.70 each on sale for each caliber. Bullets are usually a tad cheaper in 6.5mm. And it uses less powder. What you end up with is a platform that is lighter, can carry more ammo,can stock the same or more ammo for the same money, and a cartridge that has better performance with the 6.5. Quite frankly, I suspect many of us would shoot the 6.5 better. Less recoil in a light weight platform. I know we are all testosterone laden he-men here, and none of us shoot anything less than a super duper belted magnum , but I've been using a light Model Seven on whitetails for near a quarter century now. And while its only a lowly 308, its a light rifle and it thumps damned hard for such a modest caliber. And based on what I'm seeing at the range with all the fellows shooting there, I suspect most of us would shoot a 6.5 better than our heavier guns. The 6.5 is definitely back on target faster. I agree with this, however a step lighter I guess. I myself plan to add a 6mm brx to the stable soon out of a bolt gun. i'm happy with 77's from a "accurized" AR. I rely on myself to keep ammo on hand and a 6mmbrx with 105 a-max's is impressively cheap to load for and not to mention the performance you obtain(excellent brass life, less powder, and respectable barrel life). in a pinch I would not think twice to send a 105 amax at a living creature within reasonable distance. and on paper or steel it will run with the big dogs a good ways out at .10-.15 cheaper a shot and less recoil. I'm even considering setting up a hunting rifle for the wife in the same cartridge in a 20" lightweight barrel. doing things backwards this year. stocking up on componets while I can. then i'll finish the rig/rigs. With the unknown ahead of us I would rather have my ammo situation fortified than having a safe full of starving/neglected weapons. |
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Availability for components depends on how you look at it. Everything you might want in terms of bullets, powders and brass is still out there. You may have to hunt around a bit, but it's there to buy in sufficient amounts to last quite a while. In a year that may not be true, but it will be the case for any common caliber. Enough rounds use 6.5mm to make that vanish off the shelves too in a shortage. So just like regular ammo, stock it as deeply as you can afford. Of course, the problem with that is time, you don't have that much time to build the rifle, test various loads and then stock up on what you decide are your best choices.
I started that for 300 blackout a couple months ago and even THAT was a bit late for the best deals. My upper is still in jail so I can't test ammo yet to stock up on any factory stuff, and I won't know which handloads work best. I'm not looking for long range precision so I don't have to sweat that nearly as much. One thing I found last couple times around, I could always find something in terms of decent bullets. Maybe not my usual favorites, maybe not exactly what I wanted, but if I just needed more range ammo I could get something to load with that wasn't TOO over priced. Powder, primers and cases though... those were a bit more scarce and often came at a high premium. So whichever caliber you pick, I'd make sure you have those aspects covered even if you haven't settled on particular bullet choices right away. Personally, given your stated goals and thought process, I'd do 6.5 Grendel myself. Lighter, faster, less recoil, marginally less costly reloads at the cost of fewer factory load options... I'm finding that the pounding on my shoulder and the cost per round are becoming more and more important to me as the years go on. I can shoot a lot more when both of them are reduced. Unless there's a reason for more of either, why bother? For example, I setup a Savage Model 10 in 308 Win for shooting prone or off the bench at the range. Heavy rifle that soaks up recoil well and is quite accurate, yet a year after that I bought a Remington 700 ADL in 223 and made a few minor changes and get the same fun for a LOT less impact on my shoulder and wallet. I saved enough in the first year to cover the cost of the second build. I still love that Savage, but it's not the one I go put a hundred rounds through just because it's a great day. I may build myself a 6.8 or 6.5 upper next, I'm slowly rethinking my AR setups, but no rush, it'll probably be a few years. |
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An AR-10 style .308/7.62 will handle everything that walks or crawls in the lower 48 including deer, bear, elk, moose and felons. A 223/5.56 will not handle the big stuff. Thus a .308 is far more all-around useful if you can only have one rifle. Personally I would go for a reliable mid-priced heavy duty piston AR-10 in .308 with a 1x-4x scope (lighted) for an all-around close range/long range package. A good example would be a Ruger SR-762 with Burris MTAC scope = +/- $2k.
The US military still uses 308/7.62 ammo in machine guns and some sniper rifles so no problem locating ammo if WWIII should break out. Oddball ammo? Forget about it! You will not be able to find any if the SHTF politically or militarily. 
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| I don't really have an opinion either way. I have a .308 bolt gun and have never shot the 6.5. However, I know that during the last ammo shortage, oddball calibers were easy to find but the "common" calibers were tough to find. The conventional wisdom is that it's better to have common calibers because ammo is easier to find. But, that was not true in the last ammo scare. |
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The conventional wisdom is that it's better to have common calibers because ammo is easier to find. But, that was not true in the last ammo scare. The last ammo scare's (obama round1 and 2) have tought me that the ammo (or componets is some of our cases) is what you have. and actually being a reloader it was much easier to get what you needed through the barter/trade system. it also semi forced/ opened my eyes to cast bullets, which has opened a whole new realm in the shooting sports for me. now I need only to keep powder/primers in check (for the handguns that is) anticipating the next crunch i've decided to switch gears and go for minimal powder consumption. I forsee myself shooting the .223 alot more and looking to add a 6mmbrx to the stable to fulfill the long range itch. but I need to get on the ball before it's too late. I had a 16" .308 AR with a 1.5-5 leupold mk4 and I do agree it does alot very well. just be careful they get hungry in a hurry and it costs quite a bit to feed one of those guys. The powder hopper gets emptied quite quickly and before you know it your cracking open another lb of powder and ripping open another box of bullets. its a vicious cycle. lol |