Posted: 6/14/2013 3:56:08 PM EDT
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Just wondering what everyone uses that works.
I've spent more time without power at my current location (living here 2 years) than anywhere else in my entire life. After the second outage I purchased a 4kw generator. My primary concern is the refrigerator, secondary concern is heating/cooling (won't run my central air/heat pump but I keep a spare window unit and space heaters) and if I really have to I guess I could run my washer with it. But, it would be nice to fire up my computer, charge phones/batteries inside, and maybe watch tv. I've heard in the past that running your computers/tvs etc off of a UPS battery backup is a good way to go, however I tested that last night and that was a no-go, the UPS really didn't like it. Buying a $1k honda is probably a good solution, it's also a bit more than I want to spend in order to be able to watch a DVD during a 2 day outage... Any suggestions? |
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Just wondering what everyone uses that works. I've spent more time without power at my current location (living here 2 years) than anywhere else in my entire life. After the second outage I purchased a 4kw generator. My primary concern is the refrigerator, secondary concern is heating/cooling (won't run my central air/heat pump but I keep a spare window unit and space heaters) and if I really have to I guess I could run my washer with it. But, it would be nice to fire up my computer, charge phones/batteries inside, and maybe watch tv. I've heard in the past that running your computers/tvs etc off of a UPS battery backup is a good way to go, however I tested that last night and that was a no-go, the UPS really didn't like it. Buying a $1k honda is probably a good solution, it's also a bit more than I want to spend in order to be able to watch a DVD during a 2 day outage... Any suggestions? Why don't you go solar? For places that are off the grid it's expensive up front, but it'll let you do a lot of what you want to do without running the generator other than for the fridge and maybe tv (but if you go with a smaller flat screen that won't be an issue). Plus, get a wood stove for heat!! If you are able to salvage dead wood you're set. You need a LOT of it, but still, all you're going to pay for is a chimney brush and gasketing after the initial cost, and they can be had VERY cheaply on CL used. Mine was insanely expensive because princess needed one that was color coordinated with our house. If it was up to me I'd spend $100 on a barrel stove setup and be done with it! But yeah, set up a battery bank, get some solar panels and run your computer/phone/lighting(LED bulbs) off of that. -Emt1581 |
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Just wondering what everyone uses that works. I've spent more time without power at my current location (living here 2 years) than anywhere else in my entire life. After the second outage I purchased a 4kw generator. My primary concern is the refrigerator, secondary concern is heating/cooling (won't run my central air/heat pump but I keep a spare window unit and space heaters) and if I really have to I guess I could run my washer with it. But, it would be nice to fire up my computer, charge phones/batteries inside, and maybe watch tv. I've heard in the past that running your computers/tvs etc off of a UPS battery backup is a good way to go, however I tested that last night and that was a no-go, the UPS really didn't like it. Buying a $1k honda is probably a good solution, it's also a bit more than I want to spend in order to be able to watch a DVD during a 2 day outage... Any suggestions? As far as running stuff on your UPS backup...no. Think of it in terms of capacity. Given a faucet the diameter of a swizzle stick (the kind you stir a cold drink with), a 1000 gallon water tank will dribble for days before it is empty; if you turn on the faucet (1/2" pipe, let's say) it'll empty in a few hours. a 2" faucet will empty it in half an hour or so. Same thing with batteries. Your UPS battery isn't very large. But if you had an auto battery, you could have used it for a day or two, then charged it whenever you run your generator. You could also charge it for free with a photovoltaic array (a solar panel). A PVA won't run much on its own because it only delivers a small amount of power at any one time; but it delivers this trickle charge for a long time, and it can charge a bank of, say, golf cart batteries all day long, and you'll then have power to run your clothes washer for a couple of loads. This is how I lived for about a year when I moved to New Mexico. For large power loads (like your AC or such), the 1000-2000 watt generator is the way to go, else you'll draw down your batteries very quickly. I have a neighbor who has 12 or more 12-volt batteries, fed by a PVA, and he's able to run most any load he wants. He also has a generator backup for large loads. eta The usual store-bought UPS backup is only good for running your computer long enough to manage a controlled shut-down, rather than allowing everything to crash. |
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After the second outage I purchased a 4kw generator. The quality of power produced by non-inverter (or "synchronous") generators varies tremendously with brand and model. Some of 'em produce better power than you'll get out of a wall outlet, and some of 'em are really bad. A lot of 'em fall somewhere in between. What brand and model did you purchase? (Please be specific, so we can google up an internal schematic for it). |
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After the second outage I purchased a 4kw generator. The quality of power produced by non-inverter (or "synchronous") generators varies tremendously with brand and model. Some of 'em produce better power than you'll get out of a wall outlet, and some of 'em are really bad. A lot of 'em fall somewhere in between. What brand and model did you purchase? (Please be specific, so we can google up an internal schematic for it). It's a harbor freight (the only one I could find pre sandy) "predator" 4000. With no load it reads 119V and 63hz (measured with a multimeter, I don't have an oscilloscope) Under load, the voltage seems to stay the same but I kept getting frequency spikes. |
| Typically the issue is the UPS. The vast majority of electronics built in the last decade or two use switch mode power supplies that are auto ranging. They will have input specs of something like 95-240V 45-65Hz and are perfectly happy with anything that falls within that range i.e. 147V 58Hz is perfectly fine to them. The UPS on the other hand typically has factory default line sensetivity settings that mimic the utility standard tolerances and are far tighter than you actually need. Cheap UPSes may not be adjustable, but on the smarter ones you can usually adjust the setpoints so that they will accept the generator power. |
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Typically the issue is the UPS. The vast majority of electronics built in the last decade or two use switch mode power supplies that are auto ranging. They will have input specs of something like 95-240V 45-65Hz and are perfectly happy with anything that falls within that range i.e. 147V 58Hz is perfectly fine to them. The UPS on the other hand typically has factory default line sensetivity settings that mimic the utility standard tolerances and are far tighter than you actually need. Cheap UPSes may not be adjustable, but on the smarter ones you can usually adjust the setpoints so that they will accept the generator power. This. UPSes must be ready to jump to battery in a split second. So they are set to be very sensitive to anything that might indicate power is about to be lost. Most electronics will be fine on the generator. I have seen some networking and phone gear that hates noisy power. Your mileage may vary. |
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Quoted: Quoted: After the second outage I purchased a 4kw generator. The quality of power produced by non-inverter (or "synchronous") generators varies tremendously with brand and model. Some of 'em produce better power than you'll get out of a wall outlet, and some of 'em are really bad. A lot of 'em fall somewhere in between. What brand and model did you purchase? (Please be specific, so we can google up an internal schematic for it). My landlord has a cheap 10K that he hooked up to a switchbox. The first time time we powered our houses (three lots/two houses) the lights in my house were going BRIGHT...dim...BRIGHT...dim... I didn't dare turn on any electronics that I didn't want to lose. |
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After the second outage I purchased a 4kw generator. The quality of power produced by non-inverter (or "synchronous") generators varies tremendously with brand and model. Some of 'em produce better power than you'll get out of a wall outlet, and some of 'em are really bad. A lot of 'em fall somewhere in between. What brand and model did you purchase? (Please be specific, so we can google up an internal schematic for it). It's a harbor freight (the only one I could find pre sandy) "predator" 4000. With no load it reads 119V and 63hz (measured with a multimeter, I don't have an oscilloscope) Under load, the voltage seems to stay the same but I kept getting frequency spikes. Your model has an automatic voltage regulator ("AVR") circuit (item #102 on the diagram). Generators with AVR usually have pretty good power quality. Although the shape of the AC waveform they produce can vary somewhat with load, the output voltage is usually pretty constant - which you've already confirmed with your own measurements. 
"Frequency spikes" (brief fluctuations in the AC output frequency) aren't much cause for concern. They don't damage sensitive electronic devices - In fact, the vast majority of all AC loads are completely oblivious to them. |
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Pilotman, if you need a stopgap for your smaller devices until you get your power situation sorted out you could build one of my portable power stations: Build Tutorial
For 12V devices I would strongly suggest that you install a 12V accessory socket to bypass the inverter. Converting 12VDC-->110VAC-->12VDC is not very efficient. See the pics in the build thread for more info. My staff and I first built those boxes as a result of the 2008 ice storm. They were intended to give our remote employees the means to power their laptops, broadband modems, cell phone chargers etc. They worked extremely well when used within their limitations 
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I'm running a 5500W/8500W generator, 120 watts worth of solar (next to nothing), and a 12,000 W/Hr (yes 12 KW) UPS.
My generator can run during the day - it's loud and powerful - powerful enough to run my AC if I let it but I'll shrink my needs down to one downstairs room which needs about 1200W for a window AC. The solar cells do little more than power my ham radio and it's LED lighting forever. The 12 KW/Hr UPS drives a 5 KW inverter which will run my full-size freezer for 48 hours comfortably - four days push-come-to-shove. I plan on running the generator to drive the AC and recharge the UPS battery bank (over 1300 pounds of AGM batteries) using 22A and 40A chargers. I've been looking at buying a Honda EU2000 to run 1000W of quiet power after hours. Nothing like 70 dB worth of generator running on a dead nutz quiet night to draw everyone who doesn't own one from up to a half a mile away. The Honda runs at about 55 dB which is loads quieter than the big one. |
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Why don't you go solar? For places that are off the grid it's expensive up front, but it'll let you do a lot of what you want to do without running the generator other than for the fridge and maybe tv (but if you go with a smaller flat screen that won't be an issue). Plus, get a wood stove for heat!! If you are able to salvage dead wood you're set. You need a LOT of it, but still, all you're going to pay for is a chimney brush and gasketing after the initial cost, and they can be had VERY cheaply on CL used. Mine was insanely expensive because princess needed one that was color coordinated with our house. If it was up to me I'd spend $100 on a barrel stove setup and be done with it! But yeah, set up a battery bank, get some solar panels and run your computer/phone/lighting(LED bulbs) off of that. -Emt1581 I'm not really sure how well solar would work for me... have a lot of trees and even if I were to cut down every tree on my property I would still be limited Quoted:
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Typically the issue is the UPS. The vast majority of electronics built in the last decade or two use switch mode power supplies that are auto ranging. They will have input specs of something like 95-240V 45-65Hz and are perfectly happy with anything that falls within that range i.e. 147V 58Hz is perfectly fine to them. The UPS on the other hand typically has factory default line sensetivity settings that mimic the utility standard tolerances and are far tighter than you actually need. Cheap UPSes may not be adjustable, but on the smarter ones you can usually adjust the setpoints so that they will accept the generator power. This. UPSes must be ready to jump to battery in a split second. So they are set to be very sensitive to anything that might indicate power is about to be lost. Most electronics will be fine on the generator. I have seen some networking and phone gear that hates noisy power. Your mileage may vary. Interesting... I have to run the fuel out of my generator so I may run an experiment. My router and cable modem have wall warts, now that I'm thinking about it they would probably be fine. Quoted:
Your model has an automatic voltage regulator ("AVR") circuit (item #102 on the diagram). Generators with AVR usually have pretty good power quality. Although the shape of the AC waveform they produce can vary somewhat with load, the output voltage is usually pretty constant - which you've already confirmed with your own measurements. http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/3295/uhl7.jpg "Frequency spikes" (brief fluctuations in the AC output frequency) aren't much cause for concern. They don't damage sensitive electronic devices - In fact, the vast majority of all AC loads are completely oblivious to them. Cool! Thank you for this information...that makes me feel a lot better about it. I've been thinking about building one for a while now, this is the perfect excuse. I have a couple of batteries lying around, all I would need is a dedicated inverter and charger. This would be great because I could run my 12 V radio gear plus a PC independent of everything else. Quoted:
Nothing like 70 dB worth of generator running on a dead nutz quiet night to draw everyone who doesn't own one from up to a half a mile away. The Honda runs at about 55 dB which is loads quieter than the big one. I literally have an interstate running through my back yard... the generator blends in nicely with the ambient racket 
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Just wondering what everyone uses that works. I've spent more time without power at my current location (living here 2 years) than anywhere else in my entire life. After the second outage I purchased a 4kw generator. My primary concern is the refrigerator, secondary concern is heating/cooling (won't run my central air/heat pump but I keep a spare window unit and space heaters) and if I really have to I guess I could run my washer with it. But, it would be nice to fire up my computer, charge phones/batteries inside, and maybe watch tv. I've heard in the past that running your computers/tvs etc off of a UPS battery backup is a good way to go, however I tested that last night and that was a no-go, the UPS really didn't like it. Buying a $1k honda is probably a good solution, it's also a bit more than I want to spend in order to be able to watch a DVD during a 2 day outage... Any suggestions? I have a 10kw Northstar(Honda) generator and transfer switch installed by a certified electrician. Without it, a 2 day outage in the winter would mean frozen pipes and in the summer would mean enduring 100 degree heat and losing all the food in the refrigerator. |
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I didnt read everyones answers and I'm not gonna.. but I will tell you what I do. YMMV. I plug everything I want into my Champion 3500/4000 Non inverter genny. This includes my PC, modem, router, cable box, TV, refridgerator, deep freezer, cell phone chargers, furnace fan or window A/C. I have never blown out anything and everything that I have in the past that I have used with genny power is still working now. Maybee my stuff isnt very sensitive, but I really think this whole YOU MUST USE pure sine wave genny's with your electronic stuff is a marketing ploy. Perhaps the sensitive electronics they are talking about are heart difibulators and air traffic control computers, but my TV isnt all that important. Like I said, This is MY opinion |
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I'm not really sure how well solar would work for me... have a lot of trees and even if I were to cut down every tree on my property I would still be limited Quoted:
Yeah trees kinda put a damper on it. But I've seen wind turbines and panels mounted up high to phone poles and such to get around the share issue. But for wind you need a lot of it...not just a breeze every few hours. -Emt1581 |
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Typically the issue is the UPS. The vast majority of electronics built in the last decade or two use switch mode power supplies that are auto ranging. They will have input specs of something like 95-240V 45-65Hz and are perfectly happy with anything that falls within that range i.e. 147V 58Hz is perfectly fine to them. The UPS on the other hand typically has factory default line sensetivity settings that mimic the utility standard tolerances and are far tighter than you actually need. Cheap UPSes may not be adjustable, but on the smarter ones you can usually adjust the setpoints so that they will accept the generator power. This. UPSes must be ready to jump to battery in a split second. So they are set to be very sensitive to anything that might indicate power is about to be lost. Most electronics will be fine on the generator. I have seen some networking and phone gear that hates noisy power. Your mileage may vary. Depends on the design. Cheap UPS are as you say. Nicer UPSs are dual conversion, and are happy with any input that allows them to supply DC, which is converted back to AC. |
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I'm running a 5500W/8500W generator, 120 watts worth of solar (next to nothing), and a 12,000 W/Hr (yes 12 KW) UPS. My generator can run during the day - it's loud and powerful - I've been looking at buying a Honda EU2000 to run 1000W of quiet power after hours. Nothing like 70 dB worth of generator running on a dead nutz quiet night to draw everyone who doesn't own one from up to a half a mile away. The Honda runs at about 55 dB which is loads quieter than the big one. While I have no solar and and very little battery, I have adopted with success the 2 generator program. I have 5000w propane gen that makes a ton of noise that runs during the day and a Honda EU200i that runs at night. We were without power for 8 day last year after Sandy. The Honda ran the full basic load including heat/hw, fios ONT, router, DVR, 1 tv, alarm, 2 refrigerators, my CPAP machine and 1 light per room (bulbs swapped to CFLs). I used a 6 gal extended run fuel tank so I could sleep late in the morning. It was so quiet that even with the window open I couldn't hear it over the sound of the neighbors generator 2 houses away. |