[ARCHIVED THREAD] - NICS Denial (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 8/19/2011 6:38:57 PM EDT
|
I'm posting this here because I'm not in a joking mood. Quite honestly, I'm mad as heck and don't want the GD riff raff.
I'm quite confident this has been addressed here before, but I'm not in a searching mood. If you have helpful links, please post them. But don't give me the "search" stuff. I'm not disqualified from owning or purchasing a firearm for any of the statutory reasons (or any other reason). I've never even been arrested or fingerprinted by a law enforcement agency. Yet, when I recently attempted to purchase a firearm, I was initially delayed, and then denied, a firearm purchase by NICS. I submitted the online (non-fingerprint) request for the reason of denial. Their written correspondence told me I was a "fugitive from justice" and therefore prohibited from owning or purchasing a firearm. What the heck? I've never even been arrested, how can I be a fugitive? So I called them. What am a fugitive from? Sorry, can't tell you until we know who you are. You must submit fingerprints so we can verify who you are. How can you possibly have my fingerprints to verify who I am when I've never been arrested and never given my fingerprints to any law enforcement agency? How does that help you to "verify" who I am when you have no basis for comparison? We just need your fingerprints. ***** What the heck is going on here? They are essentially telling me I am absconding from the law, and have committed perjury on the 4473 in the process. I did no such thing, and am ticked off, to put it mildly. And the only way to prove it is to give them my fingerprints (that they don't already have). Should I expect a law enforcement raid on my house to arrest me for being on the lamb? Should I go to local law enforcement (or local FBI) and just surrender myself, when I have done nothing wrong? Should I surrender my firearms as well, since according to them I shouldn't own any? It seems the only way out (until they break down my door) is to give them my fingerprints. But what will they use them for apart from verifying I am not whatever person they have confused me for? What will they do with the prints thereafter? And after all the NICS checks I've passed before, why am I suddenly a "prohibited person" when nothing has changed with regard to my status? |
|
"They are essentially telling me I am absconding from the law, and have committed perjury on the 4473 in the process."
I find it odd that they didn't even bother arresting you or at least alerting local law enforcement authorities that you were there. A while back somebody asked how many people had been prosecuted because of the new background check system they have, and they couldn't even name one case of it happening. Good thing we have those laws "protecting" us like that. 
|
|
Quoted:
"They are essentially telling me I am absconding from the law, and have committed perjury on the 4473 in the process." I find it odd that they didn't even bother arresting you or at least alerting local law enforcement authorities that you were there.. I find it odd as well. Not that they didn't already know it, but I gave them my current address, etc. If I am truly a "fugitive from justice" for a "prohibited reason" and allegedly perjured myself trying to buy a firearm of all things, one would expect they would be breaking down my door to arrest me. But strangely, my door is still standing and I'm still free. Not sure what to make of that. |
|
I feel your pain, I've been there for the same reason.
Went down to my local gunshop, which I had made several purchases at proir, and was denied a new Springfield 1911 under the grounds I was a Fugitive Felon. I called the number my gunshop gave me, they would not discuss anything with me until I sent in a fingerprint and identification packet. The FBI sent me the forms, I went to the local SO and got fingerprinted, and the SO sent off the forms ( cost me $50-75 ) I waited patiently and received notification from the FBI that they had received my information, they had now identified me as me, but seeing as how they were so back logged with cases it would be 1-2 years before they would even look at my case. Regardless that their records showed I was a hard core fugitive criminal trying to illegally purchase a handgun. I said BS, took a copy of everything down to my very liberal Congress critter, and demanded action. Surprisingly, my very liberal congress critter ( or his staff ) agreed, took copies, wrote up a very nice letter to the FBI and my congress critter signed it and sent it off. A couple of weeks to a month later I received a letter from the FBI stating I was cleared of the mistake, and could proceed with haste to purchase my much desired first 1911. The congress critters aid told us the background system was nothing more then a sham. I was now a statistic for anti gunners to tout around that they stopped a hard core fugitive felon from buying a handgun. See folks, gun control really works. I was concerned that my door was going to be kicked down, my dogs shot, my neighbors cat raped and my guns collected. Not that I'd care about the neighbors cat but the rest scared me to death. Nothing happened. This happened about ten years ago, It's still talked about at my local gunshop and still frosts my ass still to this day. complete bureaucratic bullshit. That's my story in a nutshell. Wish you the best BT |
| fuck sending them fingerprints and fuck sending them an "ID packet". call them and ask them if they have a good lawyer on retainer because you will be suing them for violation of constitutional rights and contact a lawyer. make as big a stink as you can. i would bet you could find a lawyer that would do it for cheap is you find the correct one. also write to your reps as well as every newspaper you can think of and even the local media. post it online everywhere you can. get names from every person you talk to. |
|
Quoted:
Still hasn't been answered, did you PROVIDE your SS number??? No. I'd never given it to them before and never had any problems. So I expected no problems this time. And yet I have obviously run into a brick wall this time around. You are probably right. All they have demanded are my fingerprints. Not such a big deal. They aren't asking for my DNA, bank accounts, etc (yet). And when they do, I should probably give that to them as well. Sheesh...in my state you don't even need an ID to vote... |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Still hasn't been answered, did you PROVIDE your SS number??? No. I'd never given it to them before and never had any problems. So I expected no problems this time. And yet I have obviously run into a brick wall this time around. You are probably right. All they have demanded are my fingerprints. Not such a big deal. They aren't asking for my DNA, bank accounts, etc (yet). And when they do, I should probably give that to them as well. Sheesh...in my state you don't even need an ID to vote... try your SSN first. there is no reason you need to send them your fingerprints. |
|
Quoted:
Simple solution, get a chl. no more nics. Not true everywhere. In Florida you still get run for every purchase, permit or not. All the permit does for you on a purchase here is no waiting period. I've heard stories where I do my transfers that they've recently had conditional denials for high volume purchasers. I get nervous now with every new transfer since I've had over 70 call-ins the last year. They told me at least 3 of their customers have had home visits from BATFE seeking information on why they were buying so many guns. Sorry about the slight hijack, If I were the OP I'd get an attorney. |
|
Quoted:
Simple solution, get a chl. no more nics. Will do that as soon as this mess is straightened out (115 days, on average, per their correspondence). But in the interim, our state CHL application inquires whether I am prohibited from purchasing a gun under federal law. The answer is, no, I am not prohibited. But those who make and enforce the law say I am. So what to do? I've got nothing to hide, and they've very obviously mistaken my identity, but why the heck must it be so hard just to exercise a Constitutional right? My angst is enhanced by the fact that the same agency that is denying my lawful purchase of a firearm is the same one that has been sending firearms across the border that ended up killing American and Mexican agents. Government sanctioned killing sucks. And it sucks even more when that same government won't let a law abiding citizen purchase a firearm. |
| Do you have a fairly common name? My wife had all sorts of problems before we were married. She had a fairly common name and to make it worse that there was someone with the same name the same age living in the same town (Chicago) that had even had worked at some of the same places with really bad credit! |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
run your credit, make sure that there is no identity theft going on. I'd go with this. Do you have a common name? I have an extremely uncommon name. There are three other people in the US with my exact name, middle name included. One is a BP officer, one is a retiree, there is me, of course, and one was in jail for a triple homocide with a hammer back in the 1970s but has been out on parole for the last few years. My checks always take a little longer, lately. The OP may be in a similar situation. I would have an attorney do the contacting, or his congresscritter, as has been suggested. Perhaps someone with his name jumped bail recently? |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Simple solution, get a chl. no more nics. Will do that as soon as this mess is straightened out (115 days, on average, per their correspondence). But in the interim, our state CHL application inquires whether I am prohibited from purchasing a gun under federal law. The answer is, no, I am not prohibited. But those who make and enforce the law say I am. So what to do? I've got nothing to hide, and they've very obviously mistaken my identity, but why the heck must it be so hard just to exercise a Constitutional right? My angst is enhanced by the fact that the same agency that is denying my lawful purchase of a firearm is the same one that has been sending firearms across the border that ended up killing American and Mexican agents. Government sanctioned killing sucks. And it sucks even more when that same government won't let a law abiding citizen purchase a firearm. You have been sucked up into the big Government bureaucratic worm hole of hell. Play ball. Send off info they are asking for, await reply, then respond accordingly. Go to your Congressman's and or Senator's office if you have to. Get them into the fight, for in the political world they have bigger balls then you do. And yes it does suck. BT |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Simple solution, get a chl. no more nics. Not true everywhere. In Florida you still get run for every purchase, permit or not. All the permit does for you on a purchase here is no waiting period. I've heard stories where I do my transfers that they've recently had conditional denials for high volume purchasers. I get nervous now with every new transfer since I've had over 70 call-ins the last year. They told me at least 3 of their customers have had home visits from BATFE seeking information on why they were buying so many guns. Sorry about the slight hijack, If I were the OP I'd get an attorney. I heard of that out in OR as well, wanted to make sure the individual was buying for personal use and not selling. ATF agent offered paperwork to get a FFL if he was going to be buying that many firearms ( 70ish transfers must trigger an alert ), guy politely declined. Oh and no dogs were reported to of been harmed during this event. sorry for the double hijack. BT |
|
Quoted:
So what to do? Apply for a UPIN. Yes, you will have to get the packet, get fingerprinted, send everything off to the FBI, and wait 6-9 months for it to be processed. Alternatively you could put your SSN on the 4473 as that helps clear things up as well. Most likely you are not a prohibited person, but someone with the same (or similar) name/alias, DOB, POB etc. is a prohibited person, and thus you are getting hit. Quoted:
My angst is enhanced by the fact that the same agency that is denying my lawful purchase of a firearm is the same one that has been sending firearms across the border that ended up killing American and Mexican agents. Not to nitpick but F&F was run by the ATF. The FBI runs NICS (thank God or it would be even more messed up). <–– FFL |
|
Quoted:
I'm posting this here because I'm not in a joking mood. Quite honestly, I'm mad as heck and don't want the GD riff raff. I'm quite confident this has been addressed here before, but I'm not in a searching mood. If you have helpful links, please post them. But don't give me the "search" stuff. I'm not disqualified from owning or purchasing a firearm for any of the statutory reasons (or any other reason). I've never even been arrested or fingerprinted by a law enforcement agency. Yet, when I recently attempted to purchase a firearm, I was initially delayed, and then denied, a firearm purchase by NICS. I submitted the online (non-fingerprint) request for the reason of denial. Their written correspondence told me I was a "fugitive from justice" and therefore prohibited from owning or purchasing a firearm. What the heck? I've never even been arrested, how can I be a fugitive? So I called them. What am a fugitive from? Sorry, can't tell you until we know who you are. You must submit fingerprints so we can verify who you are. How can you possibly have my fingerprints to verify who I am when I've never been arrested and never given my fingerprints to any law enforcement agency? How does that help you to "verify" who I am when you have no basis for comparison? We just need your fingerprints. ***** What the heck is going on here? They are essentially telling me I am absconding from the law, and have committed perjury on the 4473 in the process. I did no such thing, and am ticked off, to put it mildly. And the only way to prove it is to give them my fingerprints (that they don't already have). Should I expect a law enforcement raid on my house to arrest me for being on the lamb? Should I go to local law enforcement (or local FBI) and just surrender myself, when I have done nothing wrong? Should I surrender my firearms as well, since according to them I shouldn't own any? It seems the only way out (until they break down my door) is to give them my fingerprints. But what will they use them for apart from verifying I am not whatever person they have confused me for? What will they do with the prints thereafter? And after all the NICS checks I've passed before, why am I suddenly a "prohibited person" when nothing has changed with regard to my status? I had this happen 3 years ago from a "Failure to Appear" warrant.. Went in payed the ticket and life was good again.. |
|
Quoted:
Not to nitpick but F&F was run by the ATF. The FBI runs NICS (thank God or it would be even more messed up). <–– FFL My bad. ATF falls under the jurisdiction of the IRS. Which in turn is under the Treasury. Which of course is run by one of the few heroes of financial freedom Tim Geithner. And of course, the FBI falls under the supervision of Attorney General Eric Holder, a stalwart supporter of the Second Amendment. And of course, they are both completely independent. My bad for even hinting about this "F&F" thing that was (and still is) initiated and maintained by one or more of the following: Bush, Congress, the Tea Party, Cheney, the Japanese Earthquake, the Arab Spring, or anyone other than Obama and his loyal servants. I apologize if some you thought this thread might have political implications. Clearly, when it comes to matters as fundamental as our constitutional rights, this administration does not play politics. They always weigh in in favor of the constitution. |
|
Here's a suggestion- Call your local SO, and tell them briefly what happened and they should be able to run you with you DL number. I say call, not visit, because it is not impossable that you are a fugative from justice. If some other state has a non violent charge against you, the SO ain't going to come out and haul you away in handcuffs. If it's felony rape, all bets are off. Maybe make the call from work. If you do find you have a warrent, you will be able to work on it with out having to see the inside of a jail cell.
I've had 2 friends that had unknown charges against them, one was a federal LEO who had a warrent against him signed by an angry city official (some felony version of criminal trespass, and possession of a weapon), the other was a midlevel manager who had assault charges filed against her by someone she had the police escort off company property. The guy all but begged them to come and arrest him, the lady didn't know about it for 6 years until she was pulled over in a traffic stop. She spent 48 hrs in jail, only to be released with the charges dropped as companing party had left town and had his own warrents out for him on other charges. She got a laywer, but he said the PD acted was within their rights because she didn;t show up in court (she thought it was his trial, but she was supposed to be there too to answer charges that she assaulted a man twice her size and half her age who had to be subdued by multiple police officers.) In her defense, she was being treated by paramedics while the police gave her the summons. She had lived and worked in the same city, and had the same employeer for the 6 years. The PD never sent her a letter, never came to her house or work, she even lost and obtained another drivers liscense, until one day she was speeding going to church... Actually I can think of a third case. AL dept of child services (we allways called them Pensions and Security) had a young black kid arrested for nonpayment of child support. He actually convinced the jailer he might be innocent. Our SO went to his grandmothers house and she was able to find all of the cashed checks except for the most recent one. TYhe Grandmother didn't drive, and the SO asked me to take him home (30 minutes, but on my way). Officially, he still had a valid warrent, but P&S refused to return phone calls (they are on a 24 hr call back for at risk children.) The SO also called the local junior college to explain his missing tests. He appeared to be a perfectly innocent kid that had been named by mistake on a warrent. The major asked me to feel him out about the chances of sueing, but not to encourage or discourage him from doing so. That made me suspect that this wasn't the first time thay had signed a warrent on the wrong guy. |
|
As others have said it could be a mix up with some one with a similar name/dob etc. It could be identiity theft.
It could also be you have some piddly minor warrant for fta. I once booked in a vp for a large christian organization as a FOJ. He was on vacation and walking his dog. Did not pick up the poo. Was issued a summons for it. A while later his car was hit at his kids soccer game. Cops were called and it showed up. The chicken shit PD entered it as statewide extradition even though there was no way they were going to drive almost 300 miles through the mountains to get him for the $90 or so fine. FOJ does not mean felon. It just means fugitive of justice. |
|
Quoted:
The answer is, no, I am not prohibited. But those who make and enforce the law say I am. So what to do? I've got nothing to hide, and they've very obviously mistaken my identity, but why the heck must it be so hard just to exercise a Constitutional right? And it sucks even more when that same government won't let a law abiding citizen purchase a firearm. The system is designed to weed out the bad guys. Somehow you got on their bad guy list. So do what needs to be done to verify that you're a good guy. Its not that hard. Using the SS number would be a good start. |
|
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Still hasn't been answered, did you PROVIDE your SS number??? No. I'd never given it to them before and never had any problems. So I expected no problems this time. And yet I have obviously run into a brick wall this time around. You are probably right. All they have demanded are my fingerprints. Not such a big deal. They aren't asking for my DNA, bank accounts, etc (yet). And when they do, I should probably give that to them as well. Sheesh...in my state you don't even need an ID to vote... try your SSN first. there is no reason you need to send them your fingerprints. This!!! I know that we are breaking the law in giving it and they are by asking for it!! But I finally just gave them my SSN. The whole system is a sham!!!!!!!! |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Still hasn't been answered, did you PROVIDE your SS number??? No. I'd never given it to them before and never had any problems. So I expected no problems this time. And yet I have obviously run into a brick wall this time around. You are probably right. All they have demanded are my fingerprints. Not such a big deal. They aren't asking for my DNA, bank accounts, etc (yet). And when they do, I should probably give that to them as well. Sheesh...in my state you don't even need an ID to vote... try your SSN first. there is no reason you need to send them your fingerprints. This!!! I know that we are breaking the law in giving it and they are by asking for it!! But I finally just gave them my SSN. The whole system is a sham!!!!!!!! In the grand scheme of things putting you SSN on a 4473 unless it's for your first firearm purchase itsn't putting you on any lists that you aren't already on. |
|
Go to local PD. Ask them to run you.
If you are nice...very nice, they may give you the teletype showing "no ncic wants". Send a copy to whoever the appeal goes through. More than likely, you have a warrant somewhere. Probably a FTA or Failure to plead or pay from some traffic infraction that wasn't paid or didn't get processed. That is all. |
|
Quoted:
This is not an SF topic. bah he's a fugitive needs to know how to survive on the lamb.... OP i feel for you... but not putting your SS down is what "caused" this unless you really are wanted 
I'm not saying your wrong (i personally think all gun laws are bullshit) i'm just telling you what most likely caused your situation. This is why i buy used 98% of the time not only cheaper less time spent dealing with the man. |
| where i am from i can go to the county Sheriff's office and get a permit to buy for about $15. They do the background check and 10 days later you get your permit. Each permit is good for a year. Then you can go buy your gun no NCIS check. Around here ccw permit is sufficient to buy as well. |
|
Quoted: Oh well. Someone with your same name is a fugitive from justice. It was never a problem before, because every Bear A. Cuda in the USA was an eligible gun buyer. But now there is a Bear A. Cuda who robbed a bank in Florida and is wanted by the FBI. When they get a NICS check for Bear A. Cuda, they have nothing to differentiate you from the other 37 Bear A. Cudas across the country, including the one who is on the wanted list. If you give them a SSN that matches up to a Bear A. Cuda that is not the Bear A. Cuda that robbed the bank, then they can identify you as not him.Quoted: Still hasn't been answered, did you PROVIDE your SS number??? No. I'd never given it to them before and never had any problems. So I expected no problems this time. Run it again, with your SSN. You'll get your gun right away, no fingerprints will be needed, and no dogs will be shot. |
|
Quoted: where i am from i can go to the county Sheriff's office and get a permit to buy for about $15. They do the background check and 10 days later you get your permit. Each permit is good for a year. Then you can go buy your gun no NCIS check. Around here ccw permit is sufficient to buy as well. You sure about that? They still have to get the approval number for the 4473. We have permit to purchase here in MN, but it doesn't bypass the phone call. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
where i am from i can go to the county Sheriff's office and get a permit to buy for about $15. They do the background check and 10 days later you get your permit. Each permit is good for a year. Then you can go buy your gun no NCIS check. Around here ccw permit is sufficient to buy as well. You sure about that? They still have to get the approval number for the 4473. We have permit to purchase here in MN, but it doesn't bypass the phone call. when my state had NICS exemption for CCW holders there was no phone call needed. then some sherrifs in the rural counties jacked it up for everyone in the state by not actually doing background checks before issuing CCWs. we recently got things revieed and we're just waiting for F Troop to tell the FFLs that CCW holders are exempt again. |
|
buy from private parties and you won't have this problem, unless you're in a state that requires all transfers to go thru a FFL.
the only problem is that your selection is reduced, and some companies only extend the warranty to the original purchaser (Kel-Tec) there's also a chance on some sales that the item may have been reported stolen, or may actually be stolen. and it's harder, but not impossible to get something that's actually "NIB" if that's important to you. if you're looking for a specific model it may be a challenge. |
|
If they are asking for FPs then send them FPs. What's the big deal? Go to the local police and get your prints taken. If they are asking for prints, that is all they will accept to clear your name.
Just like the IRS telling you you owe $100. You say you don't right up to the point they slap a lien on your house. |
|
Quoted: Quoted: Oh well. Someone with your same name is a fugitive from justice. It was never a problem before, because every Bear A. Cuda in the USA was an eligible gun buyer. But now there is a Bear A. Cuda who robbed a bank in Florida and is wanted by the FBI. When they get a NICS check for Bear A. Cuda, they have nothing to differentiate you from the other 37 Bear A. Cudas across the country, including the one who is on the wanted list. If you give them a SSN that matches up to a Bear A. Cuda that is not the Bear A. Cuda that robbed the bank, then they can identify you as not him.Quoted: Still hasn't been answered, did you PROVIDE your SS number??? No. I'd never given it to them before and never had any problems. So I expected no problems this time. Run it again, with your SSN. You'll get your gun right away, no fingerprints will be needed, and no dogs will be shot. This. |
|
That yellow form is what it is. I consider it registration and during the shootings in the d.c. area when they went checking out folks who bought bushy ar15s I learned all I needed to learn. Anyway, I figure there is a chance people with the same name as mine will also buy firearms. While they live at different addresses I decided that if for some reason someone went looking at forms and noting who with my name bought firearms I wanted my very own stack. I have moved here and there so the addresses have changed, but I put my social security number down and expect I will have my own pile. With today's economy crime is on the increase. There are more felons getting out on parole or just being released early if they are close to flattening their sentance. I work a job where I am fingerprinted and background checked each year. Had other jobs with the same thing happening as well. I decided that if possable I did not want to be confused with people that have the same name as me. If they use the forms to do something I personally don't think that social security number is going to matter other than making sure I have my own personal pile and am seperated from folks who have the same name I have. I am not hard to find. From a driver's license to a ccw permit to the job I work and the taxes I pay, it is easy to find me. I decided early on I would either fill out that yellow form or I would not fill it out. I did give thought to the social security number part but when I started playing with google to see how many people had some form of my name I decided I wanted my own stack. |
|
Quoted:
This is not an SF topic. A "NICS denial" is topical enough that it can stay, IMO. If it goes sideways, it gets the boot. Folks should check out this page, particularly points #3 and #4, as that may help keep this on track.
As an aside, best advice thus far IMO is to resubmit the paperwork with a SSN. |