[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Fighting carbine weight (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 7/17/2011 4:37:04 PM EDT
| After picking up a digital scale today,i weighed my "go to" gun(16" AR carbine).With a loaded Lancer she comes in at 9 1/4lbs.I think with spare batteries/sling i'll be at 9.5.This is with a light,eotech,iron sights,10" rail ect...Just wondering if you guy's try to keep you guns under a certain amount of pounds,or worry more about having what you need on your gun. |
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Capabilities
Weight Everything else In that order. You need to define your capabilities first and foremost. Do you want to be able to fight day or night? Close range or short? Yeah that 6.5lb KISS carbine is light, but it only has irons, and no previsions for fighting in no or low light scenarios. SHTF scenario? How would one use a KISS carbine during stand-to or when you get hit at night? Secondly, weight. With today's technology you can have full capability and lower weight. Choose the T-1 micro over the M4. Get the M600 or M300 scout over the Millenium. Choose better, lighter mounts over the cheaper ones. Lose the grip-pod and the storage compartments. Get lightweight quality rails like DD over less expensive ones like UTG. Or get FF forearms with modular scalable rails like Troy, DD MFR, or URX III. Choose good furniture. The UBR is great, but it's not the best stock for a lightweight fighting rifle. Get lightweight BUIS. Evaluate your bbl weight. Why does your "go-to" have a bull bbl? Go lightweight. Yeah, the light stuff tends to be a bit more expensive, but that's part of everything else. And it's a choice you need to make. I need to weigh my carbine. It's a DDM4 with DBAL-I2, SF Vampire scout, T-1 micro, and BUIS. It may be a bit heavier than a light weight carbine, but it's fully capable for all conditions. Wouldn't mind an ACOG down the road, but I'm saving for the PVS-14 to fill in the 2nd half of it's night-fighting capabilities. It's about as heavy as a standard M16A2 or my 20" HBAR "A4", but it's much more capable. Everything comes after those 2. Storage is great, but I don't see the reason to have a spare bolt in the pistol grip, a whole package of extra batteries in the stock, and those 4 extra rounds in the VFG. That's what your pack is for. There's no abstract weight number one can assign. "As light as capable" is the rule I try to follow. |
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Get a Magpul Moe hand guard, and use their polymer rail sections for the things you need to mount. When I first came to Arf, the thing that hit me the hardest as I hung out in the Build It Yourself forum was people putting giant, heavy, expensive quad rails on their guns, then only using 3 inches of the space, and then fixing it by adding more heavy rail covers. Lose. It. All. Fighting carbines don't need to be free floated, and you're only using 2 slots of rail. That's a lot of extra weight that isn't solving any problems for you. If it doesn't solve a problem, get rid of it. I have a neighbor who is an HPD officer and brought his new AR over to show me. He had just picked it up from the FFL, so it was totally stock, just iron sights. After talking about it for a while he asked to see my AR. When I handed it to him he said, "wow, that's really light!" My gun had a VFG, Streamlight TLR-1S, a Bushnell TRS-25 red dot, and it had a full 30-round mag in it. With all that extra stuff on it, it felt light weight to him compared to his bare bones unloaded AR. The problem with that AR of his was a monolithic quad railed upper; it was heavier than all the accessories on my gun. Looks like you have a Streamlight TLR-1 on your gun. I see a lot of people mount huge heavy flashlights that will just blind them indoors, and not give them any more advantage outdoors. I think the TLR-1 is a great choice. It's plenty bright and very light weight. Does that butt stock solve some particular problem? I don't know what kind of stock it is. If it's heavier than a MOE stock, replace it. |
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Quoted:
How would one use a KISS carbine during stand-to or when you get hit at night? The way people did for several centuries before anyone dreamed up the idea of making a profit by selling shooters a mount for a target (I mean light) which signals "SHOOT ME. I can only hope that if SHTF everyone I encounter at night conclusivley establishes their POS for me. I will be able to shoot or evade as required. 
There's not enough bandwidth to teach you the technique, but the technique is out there. The targets would tesify to the effectiveness, but dead men don't tell tales. |
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I have a couple of fancy dancy ARs. My fav is my old SP1 20" A1 stocked. It does have a knights rail , light, and a big rear sight for all of the close stuff.
It is just a good shooting rifle. The only thing I don't like it for is CQB, but I have a 10.5" LMT, if it goes that way. |
All of my AR's are 9 - 9 1/2 pounds, which is too heavy for my wifes liking. So i built her something basic and shed a little weight. I'll have to dig out the scale again but i think it was just over 7 1/2 pounds with a loaded 30 round P-Mag.
It has an Insight M3 light on it now which dropped a few ounces. |
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Quoted:
I like the TLR-1 but I wish it had the option to lockout the rocker. It can be a problem with crawling, and gets bumped easily at night giving a momentary flicker of light. Im guilty of the same. A heavy, no taper barrel, rails, eotech and a Surefire. I use it for work and do not generally have to hump with it or c arry it for extended periods. |
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Quoted: Quoted: I like the TLR-1 but I wish it had the option to lockout the rocker. It can be a problem with crawling, and gets bumped easily at night giving a momentary flicker of light. Im guilty of the same. A heavy, no taper barrel, rails, eotech and a Surefire. I use it for work and do not generally have to hump with it or c arry it for extended periods. IMO, if an accessory (light, red dot, 3Xmag, etc...) is important to you, put it on your gun. In the unlikely event that S actually does HTF, you'll be glad it's there. Lift weights if you're worried.
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I like carrying my AR SBR but I am a hell of a lot more accurate w/ my AR10 SBR when firing off hand under pressure. Its greater mass makes the gun waver way less while I pull the trigger.
Probably the best would be like a Noveskie N4 profile w/ a MOE or very light FF tube w/ rails that you put where you need them such as the JP tube or the Troy TRX. Add ur EoTec or whatever and maybe a light and a mag and it shoudl be a good balance of easy to carry and easy to shoot fast accurately. |
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I had 2 ARs that once upon a time I had made as tacticool as I could. My dad then pulled out his bare bones Carbon 15 and had me compare the weight. I have since stripped all the crap off and realized that I am better off with just having about 2" of rail on the right side to attach a light if I need it (and leave it off when I dont), BUIS, and an eotech. And that is about it. Anything else I need I can throw in a pack and reattach when I need it (magnifier or light).
Live and learn. |
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Quoted:
How would one use a KISS carbine during stand-to or when you get hit at night? The way people did for several centuries before anyone dreamed up the idea of making a profit by selling shooters a mount for a target (I mean light) which signals "SHOOT ME. I can only hope that if SHTF everyone I encounter at night conclusivley establishes their POS for me. I will be able to shoot or evade as required.
There's not enough bandwidth to teach you the technique, but the technique is out there. The targets would tesify to the effectiveness, but dead men don't tell tales. Listen, I understand the concepts and theories of using a light. Same with an IR laser. I also have used irons in low light. I'll take a proper optic over a lesser equiped AR. The fact every proffessional warrior disagrees with you is a "hint". ETA: why would one have a light for their rifle, but not mount it and learn how to run their rifle without it? If it's too heavy get a different light. |
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Quoted: I'm the opposite: If it doesn't fix a problem, get rid of it. If I can ever afford an acog, I'll probably get a low profile gas block and take the BUIS off my gun. I'm already considering taking the VFG off and working without it for a while to see if I really needed it.Quoted: Quoted: I like the TLR-1 but I wish it had the option to lockout the rocker. It can be a problem with crawling, and gets bumped easily at night giving a momentary flicker of light. Im guilty of the same. A heavy, no taper barrel, rails, eotech and a Surefire. I use it for work and do not generally have to hump with it or c arry it for extended periods. IMO, if an accessory (light, red dot, 3Xmag, etc...) is important to you, put it on your gun. In the unlikely event that S actually does HTF, you'll be glad it's there. Lift weights if you're worried. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
How would one use a KISS carbine during stand-to or when you get hit at night? The way people did for several centuries before anyone dreamed up the idea of making a profit by selling shooters a mount for a target (I mean light) which signals "SHOOT ME. I can only hope that if SHTF everyone I encounter at night conclusivley establishes their POS for me. I will be able to shoot or evade as required.
There's not enough bandwidth to teach you the technique, but the technique is out there. The targets would tesify to the effectiveness, but dead men don't tell tales. Listen, I understand the concepts and theories of using a light. Same with an IR laser. I also have used irons in low light. I'll take a proper optic over a lesser equiped AR. The fact every proffessional warrior disagrees with you is a "hint". ETA: why would one have a light for their rifle, but not mount it and learn how to run their rifle without it? If it's too heavy get a different light. Ive learned to run my rifle with it and without it. I simply choose not to have it on the rifle unless I need it, but I do keep it with within easy reach on my belt. It slips on without a second thought if I do need it. Different strokes for different folks. |
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Get a Magpul Moe hand guard, and use their polymer rail sections for the things you need to mount. When I first came to Arf, the thing that hit me the hardest as I hung out in the Build It Yourself forum was people putting giant, heavy, expensive quad rails on their guns, then only using 3 inches of the space, and then fixing it by adding more heavy rail covers. Lose. It. All. Fighting carbines don't need to be free floated, and you're only using 2 slots of rail. That's a lot of extra weight that isn't solving any problems for you. If it doesn't solve a problem, get rid of it. I have a neighbor who is an HPD officer and brought his new AR over to show me. He had just picked it up from the FFL, so it was totally stock, just iron sights. After talking about it for a while he asked to see my AR. When I handed it to him he said, "wow, that's really light!" My gun had a VFG, Streamlight TLR-1S, a Bushnell TRS-25 red dot, and it had a full 30-round mag in it. With all that extra stuff on it, it felt light weight to him compared to his bare bones unloaded AR. The problem with that AR of his was a monolithic quad railed upper; it was heavier than all the accessories on my gun. Looks like you have a Streamlight TLR-1 on your gun. I see a lot of people mount huge heavy flashlights that will just blind them indoors, and not give them any more advantage outdoors. I think the TLR-1 is a great choice. It's plenty bright and very light weight. Does that butt stock solve some particular problem? I don't know what kind of stock it is. If it's heavier than a MOE stock, replace it. My rail weighs 11.4oz and is rock solid,what does an MOE with rail sections,FSB and delta ring ect..weigh?As for the stock i really like the cheek weld,storage and strike plate(looks goo too!).As for some guys NOT running a light,i think that's just crazy! |
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9lbs is my absolute limit for a carbine. The rifle listed below was 9.5lbs with a Millet DMS-1, and that was too much to control for extended run n guns.
16" gov profile midlength Troy TRX Extreme 11" Low profile gas block CTR Stock MIAD grip Troy BUIS Eotech XPS Magpul RVG Fenix TK11 in Slot-n-mount loaded 30 round Cproducts SS mag TOTAL: 8.5lbs |
| All fighting rifles need a dedicated weapon light. Apart from that, keep the crap off it and keep it simple. Spare batteries, parts, etc, can be carried in pouches elsewhere. I mean, this is SF, right? We all have spare parts and supplies and ammo/mags in multiple bags and locations, right? |
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All fighting rifles need a dedicated weapon light. I have never been to a carbine class, read a book or watched a video on night fighting, so please bare with me here. Why? The only time I can think this would useful for me is clearing structures. Where I live, it is DARK at night and I'm afraid it would simply give away your position. Wouldn’t using a light destroy your night vision? I have been on my property for over 20 years, irrigate the fields at 0 dark thirty during new moon and pretty much can move anywhere without a light at night without hurting myself. Please elaborate on the importance. |
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Quoted:
All fighting rifles need a dedicated weapon light. I have never been to a carbine class, read a book or watched a video on night fighting, so please bare with me here. Why? The only time I can think this would useful for me is clearing structures. Where I live, it is DARK at night and I'm afraid it would simply give away your position. Wouldn’t using a light destroy your night vision? I have been on my property for over 20 years, irrigate the fields at 0 dark thirty during new moon and pretty much can move anywhere without a light at night without hurting myself. Please elaborate on the importance. Too often people are of the belief you turn it on and wave it around like a lightsaber. Example: It's dark, you hear a sound outside. You confront an intruder. Withous a light you have an equal disadvantage. Using a light, strobing it, and working to disorient the guy you have the upper hand. Not only can you see, but between the shouting and flashing light in his eyes, he's not sure how many people or what's going on. White light is for when the fight has gone loud. Even in more conventional fighting, you flash light, shoot, and move. Yeah, you might have marked where you were standing, but you should be moving to another spot. What about target ID? You can't just shoot everything moving that is "unfamiliar" to you. Is it a guy with a gun, a transient moving through, a deer, a tree? Your wife going outside to get her book at night out of the car? You need to be sure of what you're shooting at before you do. |
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if you're gonna run around with the rifle all day, a lighter gun, as in light weight barrel and not having everything in the catalog bolted on it is nice.
a white light is very nice, but chose wisely. no need for a 4D Maglite. 
the MOE handguard is one of the least expensive ways to mount a light. you can get a CAR handguard for $25 and a 2" rail for $5. works just as well as a FF rail that costs 10X as much. |
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Quoted:
if you're gonna run around with the rifle all day, a lighter gun, as in light weight barrel and not having everything in the catalog bolted on it is nice. a white light is very nice, but chose wisely. no need for a 4D Maglite.
the MOE handguard is one of the least expensive ways to mount a light. you can get a CAR handguard for $25 and a 2" rail for $5. works just as well as a FF rail that costs 10X as much. Exactly. It's all about choocing wisely. Milleniums are heavy, but don't need to be. Working on debulking my m952v right now, it's almost as light as a similar m600v. X300s, TLR-1s, mini-scouts are all popluar for a reason. Very capable, very durable, and they weight next to nothing. MOEs are nice, but I believe Troy FF tubes are even lighter considering you can do away w/ the delta-ring assy, FSB, and handguard cap. I'm all for cutting weight, but refuse to do so at the expense of capability. |
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All fighting rifles need a dedicated weapon light. I have never been to a carbine class, read a book or watched a video on night fighting, so please bare with me here. Why? The only time I can think this would useful for me is clearing structures. Where I live, it is DARK at night and I'm afraid it would simply give away your position. Wouldn’t using a light destroy your night vision? I have been on my property for over 20 years, irrigate the fields at 0 dark thirty during new moon and pretty much can move anywhere without a light at night without hurting myself. Please elaborate on the importance. Too often people are of the belief you turn it on and wave it around like a lightsaber. Example: It's dark, you hear a sound outside. You confront an intruder. Withous a light you have an equal disadvantage. Using a light, strobing it, and working to disorient the guy you have the upper hand. Not only can you see, but between the shouting and flashing light in his eyes, he's not sure how many people or what's going on. White light is for when the fight has gone loud. Even in more conventional fighting, you flash light, shoot, and move. Yeah, you might have marked where you were standing, but you should be moving to another spot. What about target ID? You can't just shoot everything moving that is "unfamiliar" to you. Is it a guy with a gun, a transient moving through, a deer, a tree? Your wife going outside to get her book at night out of the car? You need to be sure of what you're shooting at before you do. BINGO! I will wager that IF you have to use your rifle for defensive purposes it will likely be either INSIDE a building OR at night OR BOTH. Dedicated weaponlight is required. Hell, I don't leave my house without a flashlight ON me every day. Not to mention I have a spare in each car, AND spare batteries and spare light in my EDC laptop bag. Light can control a situation and put you in the advantage, resetting your adversary's OODA loop. |
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How would one use a KISS carbine during stand-to or when you get hit at night? The way people did for several centuries before anyone dreamed up the idea of making a profit by selling shooters a mount for a target (I mean light) which signals "SHOOT ME. I can only hope that if SHTF everyone I encounter at night conclusivley establishes their POS for me. I will be able to shoot or evade as required.
There's not enough bandwidth to teach you the technique, but the technique is out there. The targets would tesify to the effectiveness, but dead men don't tell tales. Meh. Your statement about the light is wrong. Period. Lights, RDS, solid sling, are essential on a long gun that will be used for combat. Not optional. |
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How would one use a KISS carbine during stand-to or when you get hit at night? The way people did for several centuries before anyone dreamed up the idea of making a profit by selling shooters a mount for a target (I mean light) which signals "SHOOT ME. I can only hope that if SHTF everyone I encounter at night conclusivley establishes their POS for me. I will be able to shoot or evade as required.
There's not enough bandwidth to teach you the technique, but the technique is out there. The targets would tesify to the effectiveness, but dead men don't tell tales. By the time you see the light, you won't even see the flash which follows... |
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My MRP piston is like 12# fully loaded.
It's heavy, but that's why I work out. I recall a quote from a military person whose name I don't remember ... went something along the lines of "We try not to strip down the weapon to compensate for the weakness of the operator, we try to build up the operator to compensate for the capability of the weapon". I would love for it to be lighter ... but it's really not that big of a deal. If I was actually in a firefight, I have no doubt the weight wouldn't even be noticed. I don't plan on carrying my rifle on 40 mile hikes, for what it's worth. To this threads credit ... my next build is going to be a lightweight 14.5 middy BCM build, no rail, MOE handguards, probably just a T1 optic ... Should be very light and still capable. 
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All fighting rifles need a dedicated weapon light. I have never been to a carbine class, read a book or watched a video on night fighting, so please bare with me here. Why? The only time I can think this would useful for me is clearing structures. Where I live, it is DARK at night and I'm afraid it would simply give away your position. Wouldn’t using a light destroy your night vision? I have been on my property for over 20 years, irrigate the fields at 0 dark thirty during new moon and pretty much can move anywhere without a light at night without hurting myself. Please elaborate on the importance. Im sure you can notice how if you are inside with the lights on, and step outside into the dark, it takes a moment for your eyes to adjust to the lower light correct? Everybody has a "built in night vision", it can take your eyes up to two hours to fully acclimate to different light situations. This is why you can walk around the woods at night and still see, Ill bet you cant immediately, but after a few minutes your good to go, your pupils adjust and become acclimated to the light (or lack of). To see what Im talking about, next dark night head outside with a family member and let your eyes adjust for a few minutes in complete darkness, and then have your family member give you a burst of light to the face (with the flashlight preferably), you will be basically blind for a few seconds after that. Your pupils close because of over absorption of light, and as soon as the light is gone, your pupils are too closed to absorb a sufficient amount of natural light, and must begin re-dialating. If you already know this, maybe a simple experience like this will help you realize the strategic and tactical advantage that can be gained Yes light from a flashlight may disrupt your artificial night vision as well as your natural, but more importantly it is a tool to mess up their whole vision and disorient them (amongst other things posted by others, for example, making sure you should be shooting at it or them in the first place). If you don't want to give away your position at night with light, you better get good at throwing knives. Last time I shot my gun at night it made "some" light, and I presume it will do it the next time too! |
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My MRP piston is like 12# fully loaded. It's heavy, but that's why I work out. I recall a quote from a military person whose name I don't remember ... went something along the lines of "We try not to strip down the weapon to compensate for the weakness of the operator, we try to build up the operator to compensate for the capability of the weapon". I would love for it to be lighter ... but it's really not that big of a deal. If I was actually in a firefight, I have no doubt the weight wouldn't even be noticed. I don't plan on carrying my rifle on 40 mile hikes, for what it's worth. To this threads credit ... my next build is going to be a lightweight 14.5 middy BCM build, no rail, MOE handguards, probably just a T1 optic ... Should be very light and still capable. http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m254/duggan12/MRP-Modern-07.jpg http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m254/duggan12/MRP-Modern-08.jpg Nice gun,and nice quote!I don't feel mine is that heavy after seeing what yours weighs!!! |
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All of the AR's are 7-9 lbs.
The AK's are 7-ish My beloved SOCOM is 10.5 loaded, and if my wallet is in my pocket, my SOCOM is within arm's reach. It already sucks that I have to go block to block, room to room, and I'm missing the Seinfeld reruns. The 5 extra pounds (rifle / mags) means that I'll use less rounds to go through the cinder block you're hiding behind, and be home (hopefully) before the wife's new boyfriend drinks all my beer. God bless Springfield Armory. |
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I agree with many above. keep it as light as possible and if you must add weight make sure it's worth it's weight in usefullness. ounce's turn into pounds, pounds=pain.
that said my goal is to keep my rifle in our around the high 8lb range(no ammo), yet I feel a balanced rifle is very important. especially if shooting off hand. my build will consist of a bushmaster orc in .308 with a leupold mr/t 1.5-5x24 scope, add fsb, magpul midlength handguards with short rail to mount tlr-1 light, hand stop, rear buis(unsure of which to run. KAC 600 if I can afford it) magpul acs, slash heavy buffer, flat spring [these the stock and buffer both help by balancing the gun, slowing the bolt and adding better cheek weld] and lastly a good sling, magpul mags and a babc break(depending how heavy the rifle is at this point) this rifle should do everything I need from 0-600yds and from large game to two legged critters. my go-to loads are 110gr v-max's and 168gr a-max's for everything else thing I like about the 110's is it has a very similar POI inside of 200 yards and a 20 round mag feels noticably lighter than a 20 round mag of 168gr a-max's my reasoning for choosing a .308 is everything out here is quite open. and it kinda comes down to the whole I'd rather have it and not need it philosophy. a 110gr v-max over 3000 ft/sec I think will smack with a little more authority than a 55gr at a equal or lesser speed. and I can hunt with it. |
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http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/541662_Here_is_my_boomstick____.html
weight is everything......every ounce counts 7.3lbs unloaded |
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All fighting rifles need a dedicated weapon light. I have never been to a carbine class, read a book or watched a video on night fighting, so please bare with me here. Why? The only time I can think this would useful for me is clearing structures. Where I live, it is DARK at night and I'm afraid it would simply give away your position. Wouldn’t using a light destroy your night vision? I have been on my property for over 20 years, irrigate the fields at 0 dark thirty during new moon and pretty much can move anywhere without a light at night without hurting myself. Please elaborate on the importance. Too often people are of the belief you turn it on and wave it around like a lightsaber. Example: It's dark, you hear a sound outside. You confront an intruder. Withous a light you have an equal disadvantage. Using a light, strobing it, and working to disorient the guy you have the upper hand. Not only can you see, but between the shouting and flashing light in his eyes, he's not sure how many people or what's going on. White light is for when the fight has gone loud. Even in more conventional fighting, you flash light, shoot, and move. Yeah, you might have marked where you were standing, but you should be moving to another spot. What about target ID? You can't just shoot everything moving that is "unfamiliar" to you. Is it a guy with a gun, a transient moving through, a deer, a tree? Your wife going outside to get her book at night out of the car? You need to be sure of what you're shooting at before you do. Yes if you leave the light on all the time like the retards on TV do, you very effectively telegraph where you are. If you flash your target (and engage or not, depending on various factors), and then frigging move to another spot, then they're very effective. And sweet Jesus, you don't shoot at anything that you haven't ID'd. That's how idiots shoot their family members thinking they are a burglar, etc. Using a light makes the ID'ing your target ALOT easier. Is the OP going to shoot at a shadowy figure walking on his property without ID'ing it first? Even if it's not a family member, is the guy armed, a disoriented drunk, someone you shouldn't maybe be shooting? There's a reason cops carry and use flashlights outside at night. Otherwise they'd be shooting shadowy unidentified persons because it's easier. 
If I was on the jury in a case where the defendant shot a person he shouldn't have because he couldn't be bothered to even have a light on his gun (or in his hand, whatever) so he could ID the target before he shot it, well...let's just say I'd not be favorably inclined to rule not guilty of negligent manslaughter, etc. Criminal stupidity to say the least. |
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Quoted: After picking up a digital scale today,i weighed my "go to" gun(16" AR carbine).With a loaded Lancer she comes in at 9 1/4lbs.I think with spare batteries/sling i'll be at 9.5.This is with a light,eotech,iron sights,10" rail ect...Just wondering if you guy's try to keep you guns under a certain amount of pounds,or worry more about having what you need on your gun. I try to work on my fitness more than fixing the weight of a carbine, saying that balance is everything |
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After picking up a digital scale today,i weighed my "go to" gun(16" AR carbine).With a loaded Lancer she comes in at 9 1/4lbs.I think with spare batteries/sling i'll be at 9.5.This is with a light,eotech,iron sights,10" rail ect...Just wondering if you guy's try to keep you guns under a certain amount of pounds,or worry more about having what you need on your gun. I try to work on my fitness more than fixing the weight of a carbine, saying that balance is everything That's what i'll be doing as soon as my AR is done!(99% there)I think the rifle and shooter need to be in top condition to be as effective as can be. |
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All fighting rifles need a dedicated weapon light. I have never been to a carbine class, read a book or watched a video on night fighting, so please bare with me here. Why? The only time I can think this would useful for me is clearing structures. Where I live, it is DARK at night and I'm afraid it would simply give away your position. Wouldn’t using a light destroy your night vision? I have been on my property for over 20 years, irrigate the fields at 0 dark thirty during new moon and pretty much can move anywhere without a light at night without hurting myself. Please elaborate on the importance. Im sure you can notice how if you are inside with the lights on, and step outside into the dark, it takes a moment for your eyes to adjust to the lower light correct? Everybody has a "built in night vision", it can take your eyes up to two hours to fully acclimate to different light situations. This is why you can walk around the woods at night and still see, Ill bet you cant immediately, but after a few minutes your good to go, your pupils adjust and become acclimated to the light (or lack of). To see what Im talking about, next dark night head outside with a family member and let your eyes adjust for a few minutes in complete darkness, and then have your family member give you a burst of light to the face (with the flashlight preferably), you will be basically blind for a few seconds after that. Your pupils close because of over absorption of light, and as soon as the light is gone, your pupils are too closed to absorb a sufficient amount of natural light, and must begin re-dialating. If you already know this, maybe a simple experience like this will help you realize the strategic and tactical advantage that can be gained Yes light from a flashlight may disrupt your artificial night vision as well as your natural, but more importantly it is a tool to mess up their whole vision and disorient them (amongst other things posted by others, for example, making sure you should be shooting at it or them in the first place). If you don't want to give away your position at night with light, you better get good at throwing knives. Last time I shot my gun at night it made "some" light, and I presume it will do it the next time too! If you think a weapon light will momentarily destroy your OWN night vision, imagine what 90 lumens will do to the guy you just pointed it at that may have a weapon pointed at you! |
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Just weighted my primary on the bath scale: 10.5lbs, and I'm none the wiser for it. I've run that gun plus gear and ammo in physically demanding classes held during the hot summer heat of the south, so I know its not beyond my capability to do so for prolonged periods of time. Besides, more than likely any skirmish in which I may be involved won't involve hiking tens of clicks or prolonged firefights with dug-in adversaries that are well versed in warfare. It'll likely be all over in under a minute. Trading the weapon light, quad rail, RDS, and after-market muzzle device in favor of weight reduction just doesn't seem to wise given the application that the tool is most likely to serve. YMMV. |
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Quoted: At longer ranges, you may have a point. Quoted: How would one use a KISS carbine during stand-to or when you get hit at night? The way people did for several centuries before anyone dreamed up the idea of making a profit by selling shooters a mount for a target (I mean light) which signals "SHOOT ME. I can only hope that if SHTF everyone I encounter at night conclusivley establishes their POS for me. I will be able to shoot or evade as required. There's not enough bandwidth to teach you the technique, but the technique is out there. The targets would tesify to the effectiveness, but dead men don't tell tales. At closer ranges, you've never tried to look into, much less shoot at one of the modern weapons lights, have you? We had a guy at the night, indoor ipsc match who put forth the same thought. I pulled my surefire and shined it in his eyes. His hands came up and he closed his eyes and turned away. I said, "Now, that was in a well lit room. Imagine if it were dark. I can see and shoot you. You can't even look at me. Care to rethink your statement?" Guys who shoot at people at night for a living use the best light they can get, or they used NVDs. I'll stick with what they use. |
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How would one use a KISS carbine during stand-to or when you get hit at night? The way people did for several centuries before anyone dreamed up the idea of making a profit by selling shooters a mount for a target (I mean light) which signals "SHOOT ME. I can only hope that if SHTF everyone I encounter at night conclusivley establishes their POS for me. I will be able to shoot or evade as required.
There's not enough bandwidth to teach you the technique, but the technique is out there. The targets would tesify to the effectiveness, but dead men don't tell tales. Being a product of Camp Pendelton and Quantico, I learned numerous night fighting techniques that did without a light, NODs or a laser. However, they are much less effective. When I use to instruct close shooting, we often did white light at night in the shoot houses with sim-munitions, the guys using high power white lights never got hit because of the light being a give away. |
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How would one use a KISS carbine during stand-to or when you get hit at night? The way people did for several centuries before anyone dreamed up the idea of making a profit by selling shooters a mount for a target (I mean light) which signals "SHOOT ME. I can only hope that if SHTF everyone I encounter at night conclusivley establishes their POS for me. I will be able to shoot or evade as required.
There's not enough bandwidth to teach you the technique, but the technique is out there. The targets would tesify to the effectiveness, but dead men don't tell tales. Being a product of Camp Pendelton and Quantico, I learned numerous night fighting techniques that did without a light, NODs or a laser. However, they are much less effective. When I use to instruct close shooting, we often did white light at night in the shoot houses with sim-munitions, the guys using high power white lights never got hit because of the light being a give away. Meh, what would you know? 
I have heard the same argument against using compensated or ported barrels during low light shootings. Side by side comparisons will show you that the muzzle flash is the same from a ported or a non-ported pistol. Myth is myth until you've tried it yourself... Back on the topic, my go-to AR is a Bushy Ultralite 16" Barrel with FT upper, Trijicon reflex I sight, Carbine grips with dedicated Gladius weaponlight and fixed Sully stock. I used it in the woods to hunt 4-leggeds last year and it was downright comfortable compared to anything anyone else had. I don't have the weight figures, but it is light and very well balanced. If you have to sling a rifle for even half a day, you'll wish it was lighter no matter how light it is. |
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My HD rifle is roughly 8.5 pounds loaded with an Aimpoint ML3, basic light and mount combo, vfg and YHM rail
MY Bug out rifle is 8.2 with an ACOG, MOE forearm, ACS stock and MOE VFG and Pistol Grip. Full pmag included. I'm a firm believer in capability over weight but I'm more than comfortable with the weight of my ARs |
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I dumped my vfg and never looked back. Now I address all my rifles the same. Much better. Same here. I took a carbine class and was shown a much better way. I am, however, adding a handstop. my hand stop is my light mount on the left side of the fore end, about 10 o clock, close to where my thumb naturally falls. 
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