Posted: 2/18/2011 7:35:17 AM EDT
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Anyone ever discussed this?
I know some load tracers as an empty mag indicator, but does anyove advocate mixing the whole mage with with fmj and soft or hp? Say I have some M855 and some HP that shoot within 1 moa of each other. Thoughts? |
| Eh, impersonally don't see the point. If I need a different round, I'll probably need more than a couple. I've got mags with 55gr fmj, some with 62 some with 69 and some with various weight v-max. Use the right tool for the job- you don't reach into a tool bag use the first screwdriver you happen to pick up- you select the right one. I view it as the same thing; swap mags. |
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I have mags loaded with different rounds, but not different rounds in each mag. In a gunfight, none of those things will be as much of a factor as simply getting hits in the first place.
was that an m855 that I just fired or was it a 55 grain TAP....
Can you picture it now??? 
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| I just loaded up 5 mags yesterday will various brands of ammo. However they were all 55 gr FMJ so not sure if that answers your question. I only put one tracer at #25, and only put 28 rounds in each mag. I know the arguments about spring life, it's just a habit that I've stuck to. |
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If 60gr SP won't get-r-done from a 223, then I don't think 55 or 62gr FMJ from the same rifle will get the job done either. If 150gr SP won't get-r-done from a 308, then I don't think 148gr FMJ from the same rifle will get the job done either. If 180gr SP won't get-r-done from a 300mag, then I don't thin....oops there really is no FMJ for this cal. If 750gr AMAX won't get-r-done from a 50BMG then I don't think 750gr FMJ from the same rifle will get the job done either. There is no soft point version of a JADAM, and really as a private civilian just how do you plan to call for air support? I think you should see by now that I think that if a quality hunting projectile will not get-r-dun, then you really need a bigger riffle, or a better plan, or both |
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While on the two-way range, I load my mags with a mix of M855 & M856 (tracer). I do this for two reasons:
1. Directing fire 2. indicating the need for a mag change. Conditions are different in that if I am shooting, so are a lot of other people vs. more of a survival situation where I may be alone. I laoded the last three & first three rounds with M856. The first three are to help direct fire to the enemy position. The last three remind me to change mags. I also carried a full mag of M856 (if needed) to direct fire. Stateside I don't use tracers for my personal security mags, but would consider it if I had a larger amount. |
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I guess I have the collective answer, but I'm not sure I made the question clear.
The question was specifically whether anyone would mix FMJ & HP/Soft Nose. I mentioned tracers because that is the only mix load I've ever heard mentioned. I'm no gunfighter yet, thank God, but I didn't know if combining FMJ with something else would make sense if an engagement involved different ranges, varied cover, etc. Not a big deal - I was just curious to hear others' thoughts. My SHTF supply is primarily M855, but I keep separate mags with different loads for range time and hunting. |
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Quoted: Anyone ever discussed this? I know some load tracers as an empty mag indicator, but does anyove advocate mixing the whole mage with with fmj and soft or hp? Say I have some M855 and some HP that shoot within 1 moa of each other. Thoughts? The tracer thing doesn't work. I would never mix mags, but I have mags loaded differently, IE 2 mags with AP and 4 with TAP |
| I do not. My everyday load is a Winchester 64 grain power point in front of 25 grains of varget. I have some fmj for practice since they are less expensive, but my everyday load is a soft point. I can not think of a situation where I would rather have a FMJ over my SP. |
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If 60gr SP won't get-r-done from a 223, then I don't think 55 or 62gr FMJ from the same rifle will get the job done either. If 150gr SP won't get-r-done from a 308, then I don't think 148gr FMJ from the same rifle will get the job done either. If 180gr SP won't get-r-done from a 300mag, then I don't thin....oops there really is no FMJ for this cal. If 750gr AMAX won't get-r-done from a 50BMG then I don't think 750gr FMJ from the same rifle will get the job done either. There is no soft point version of a JADAM, and really as a private civilian just how do you plan to call for air support? I think you should see by now that I think that if a quality hunting projectile will not get-r-dun, then you really need a bigger riffle, or a better plan, or both First let me give a  to what is said above as I could have not said it better myself!
If you need a bigger rifle then get one! Yet what would I want to hit a deer with a 55gr FMJ or some type of JSP? If your in a fight it does not matter as long as lead is being thrown down range! I have my hunting ammo in another mag then my fighting ammo. Yet if I have to pull out the hunting ammo I will even just to fight with as the rule lead going down range is key! |
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I guess I have the collective answer, but I'm not sure I made the question clear. The question was specifically whether anyone would mix FMJ & HP/Soft Nose. I mentioned tracers because that is the only mix load I've ever heard mentioned. I'm no gunfighter yet, thank God, but I didn't know if combining FMJ with something else would make sense if an engagement involved different ranges, varied cover, etc. Not a big deal - I was just curious to hear others' thoughts. My SHTF supply is primarily M855, but I keep separate mags with different loads for range time and hunting. If accuracy is not important to you then go for it. Honestly, accuracy and knowing exactly where the round is going to impact in its trajectory all the way out to the maximum range I will use it is critical. Now its accuracy might not be the best possible, but it will be consistent without rounds of various ballistic coefficients and velocities going all over the place. I think it silly. I also think it silly to have many, many different rounds loaded into magazines for the same rifle. The 55 grn V max I have my truck gun sighted in for shoots to the same point of impact at 100 yds as the xm193. I got lucky on that. The 75 grn TAP is not nearly close enough to use in that rifle for anything over 50 yds. I need to know where my round is going to hit with at least some level of precision. ETA: Try this. Try shooting at group with all those different rounds in one 30 round magazine. If you can shoot a 2 MOA group with all 30 rounds then go for it. |
I have 55 grain FMJ in most of my mags. I also have a couple of mags loaded with a 62 grain JSP. I have my FMJ in P-Mags and my JSP in C-Products mags. This way I can tell by feel which is which. I also color code my mags. My black P-Mags are my 75 grain Hornady HP for my LWRC. I am gonna spray paint another several for the 75 grain AP that I plan on getting for a bit of punch power. I know, I know, I have OCD, LOL! Spending several years as a Paratrooper, have developed that OCD. I keep my guns clean enough to eat off of and I have to polish all of my boots, most to a spit shine. 
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The magazine next to my AR is mixed 55gr FMJ and 50gr JHP. If this magazine is ever pressed into service, the engagements will most certainly be within 20 yards, so it doesn' matter if it's -6 inches or -8 inches round-to-round at 300yds. My fighting rifle is my fighting rifle. whether I need it for 10 ft or 200 yds., it better be on and consistent, period. You get into a home defense shooting, fine. The shot was only 20 ft., but we are not just preparing for a home invasion. What if the home defense shooting is during a SHTF and you don't know its happening. You shoot the intruder and go right into a real gun fight engaging people shooting into your house because you shot their buddy who was checking the place out? I think ignoring accuracy and consistent point of impact is ill advised. |
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I can see loading the top two or three with soft nose ammo if you are in an ambush position or perhaps a defensive position where you will have a moment to aim very carefully. Murphy's Laws of Combat #3: Tracers work both ways.. Outside of the above, the 5.56 in particular does not penetrate very well and it is well known that the 55 gr FMJ is capable of creating serious wounds. It would also be difficult to find FMJ and soft nosed ammo that had the same POI out to max effective range.
Ops |
| I know cops who used to have set patterns as to how they loaded buckshot and slugs into their shotguns. You really won't be able to keep track of stuff like that in a critical incident. I can see marking the mags, or maybe using different types or capacities of mags for different types of rounds (put match ammo in 20 round mags, put SS109 in 30 round P-Mags), but I suspect that most people are going to pull the trigger as fast as they can and not bother to count. |
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In a gun fight unless you have a good bit of training and are naturally a cool character ,or have a bit of experience under your belt I doubt you will be able to even remember about how many rounds you put down range . Reading through AAR CCW shoots its very common for the CCW holder not remember putting as many rounds as he or she did down range . In my go kit I just keep my best stuff loaded in the mag thats in the gun with the rifle the spares are loaded with the same but my pistol has HPs in the mag in the gun and my better FMJs in my spare just because sometimes Ill get a chance to shoot my pistol on the way home from work and dont want to burn through my good stuff practicing . I keep a couple of boxes of FMJ pistol ammo in my work van and in my DD to reload the spares with. |
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The magazine next to my AR is mixed 55gr FMJ and 50gr JHP. If this magazine is ever pressed into service, the engagements will most certainly be within 20 yards, so it doesn' matter if it's -6 inches or -8 inches round-to-round at 300yds. So, out of curiousity, WHY do you feel you need 5 grains of difference in bullet weight in every other round you fire? Please explain. most certainly
I wish I knew what range my next gunfight was going to be... |
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The magazine next to my AR is mixed 55gr FMJ and 50gr JHP. If this magazine is ever pressed into service, the engagements will most certainly be within 20 yards, so it doesn' matter if it's -6 inches or -8 inches round-to-round at 300yds. Why would you mix the rounds? And why would you choose to mix a medicre performing round with a poor performing round? |
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Anyone ever discussed this? Thoughts? We've discussed it many times, but we're due for it again. So Cudos on the timing! Now, the first question I'll ask you is what percieved need or nitch does it fill? Why would mix 2 different round, what benefit does it give you? Now my thoughts on the subject are: DON'T In a gunfight you'll never know which round is in the chamber. The rounds will shoot to different points of impact, it may not be much - but then again do you know what range the fight will take place? Get a good round and load your magazines with it. If you think you'll need another round (like one that will penetrate barriers and still perform) then load it into a different magazine. Either use colored PMAGs to tell the difference or load one type into 30s and the other into 20s. |
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In regards to tracers: we would run a couple of mags (usually last ones) with 2+1 so every 3 round burst would catch a tracer if needed. The rest of the mags were not loaded with tracers.
Mixing other rounds sounds like a bad idea to me. Shifting point of impact never sounds good to me when you don't know it's coming. |
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Listening to some people that have done CQ fighting, this combination, or similar, gets mentioned. I'm just deferring to them on the matter. Having watched a FMJ round go through the base of a deer's skull with seemingly no effect, I can see where a HP or JSP might have been more effective. For the rare deer that's wearing body armor, the FMJ seems like the obvious choice.
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Quoted: <snip></snip> In a gunfight you'll never know which round is in the chamber. The rounds will shoot to different points of impact, it may not be much - but then again do you know what range the fight will take place? What is more likely: 1) You have to engage a sniper from a long ways away who is barricaded behind material that a .223 round will not penetrate so you have to hit a small diameter hole to return effective fire or 2) you will have to defend your home/property/family from very close range 50m or less? The first scenario occurs in the US on the scale of decades, the second every few minutes. At 50m, the POI change is insignificant. If you have a 30 round magazine, who cares which of the rounds is in the chamber, I am betting you will be letting fly with quite a few of them. |
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Quoted:
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<snip></snip> In a gunfight you'll never know which round is in the chamber. The rounds will shoot to different points of impact, it may not be much - but then again do you know what range the fight will take place? What is more likely: 1) You have to engage a sniper from a long ways away who is barricaded behind material that a .223 round will not penetrate so you have to hit a small diameter hole to return effective fire or 2) you will have to defend your home/property/family from very close range 50m or less? The first scenario occurs in the US on the scale of decades, the second every few minutes. At 50m, the POI change is insignificant. If you have a 30 round magazine, who cares which of the rounds is in the chamber, I am betting you will be letting fly with quite a few of them. So you don't care about accuracy. Got it. We are not prepping for a home invasion alone, but for stuff we have not face in this country before. If I need to have one weapon ready for many different types of encounters, then why handicap myself with inaccuracy forced by my own bad choices. If I have consistency and accuracy, I can handle the home invasion as well as the long shot at a guy hiding behind a car. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: <snip></snip> In a gunfight you'll never know which round is in the chamber. The rounds will shoot to different points of impact, it may not be much - but then again do you know what range the fight will take place? What is more likely: 1) You have to engage a sniper from a long ways away who is barricaded behind material that a .223 round will not penetrate so you have to hit a small diameter hole to return effective fire or 2) you will have to defend your home/property/family from very close range 50m or less? The first scenario occurs in the US on the scale of decades, the second every few minutes. At 50m, the POI change is insignificant. If you have a 30 round magazine, who cares which of the rounds is in the chamber, I am betting you will be letting fly with quite a few of them. So you don't care about accuracy. Got it. We are not prepping for a home invasion alone, but for stuff we have not face in this country before. If I need to have one weapon ready for many different types of encounters, then why handicap myself with inaccuracy forced by my own bad choices. If I have consistency and accuracy, I can handle the home invasion as well as the long shot at a guy hiding behind a car. Who said I didn't care about accuracy? All I stated was the POI change that occurs by mixing rounds is insignificant for 99.99% of the scenarios you are likely to encounter in your lifetime. You can plan for the 0.01% if you wish, but alternating penetrating ammunition with expanding ammunition will probably be much more useful than preparing for something that would be like winning the lottery. |
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Why does everyone seem to think that I have but one lonely magazine? This is simply one magazine that's clearly marked and next to my AR; it's there for one singular purpose.
A 200 yard engagement? I can tell you with very little doubt that I probably wouldn't even pull the trigger: I have only loaded a firearm one time in my life for sole purpose of engaging a human being. A semingly serious altercation broke out between a state trooper and a motorist during a traffic stop as I was passing by. I was concerned the motorist was going to gain control of the officer's sidearm. By mere chance, I was on my way back from the range and had my rifle with me. Fortunately for me, the altercation went from a fight to a pursuit before I could get out of my car with my rifle. [Edited to add emphasis] |
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. but alternating penetrating ammunition with expanding ammunition will probably be much more useful than preparing for something that would be like winning the lottery. And NOBODY has explained why mixing ammo is useful. What do you feel FMJ gives you that premium ammo does not? Do you think OTMs, SPs and Nosler Partitions are not going to go through body armor? If so then boy do I have a suprise for you! Need to defeat a barrier before hitting the goblin? Then skip FMJ, it won't do the job nearly as well as modern expanding rounds such as the TSX, Nosler Partition, Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, and Mk318 - indeed even against glass those round perform better than M855. So I ask again, what advantage do you perceive to gain by mixing ammo in a magazine? |
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Quoted: Quoted: . but alternating penetrating ammunition with expanding ammunition will probably be much more useful than preparing for something that would be like winning the lottery. And NOBODY has explained why mixing ammo is useful. What do you feel FMJ gives you that premium ammo does not? Do you think OTMs, SPs and Nosler Partitions are not going to go through body armor? If so then boy do I have a suprise for you! Need to defeat a barrier before hitting the goblin? Then skip FMJ, it won't do the job nearly as well as modern expanding rounds such as the TSX, Nosler Partition, Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, and Mk318 - indeed even against glass those round perform better than M855. So I ask again, what advantage do you perceive to gain by mixing ammo in a magazine? Show me a study that proves that expanding ammo is superior in 90% or greater against all materials that you are likely to encounter in a fire fight at close to intermediate distances with the ballistics gelatin being protected by a variety clothing and types of armor and I will agree with you. I have seen many tests with books, plywood, and various stand alone boards, but I want to see them perform against a variety of correctly constructed sections of exterior walls (modern brick, solid brick, wood siding, aluminum siding, cement board siding), rail road ties, 12" hard and soft-wood trees, and any other common barriers that someone would be able to hide behind. Until then (with fragmentation and deflection being a separate issue) I am going to go with the logical assumption that a hard narrow pointy shape is going to have better penetration than a flat wide shape when travelling through some materials. Either round is going to work in the large majority of the situations that anyone is likely to encounter. For those where one is better than the other, I would rather be in a situation where only 50% of my rounds can penetrate a protective barrier rather than 0%. |
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Show me a study that proves that expanding ammo is superior in 90% or greater against all materials that you are likely to encounter in a fire fight at close to intermediate distances with the ballistics gelatin being protected by a variety clothing and types of armor and I will agree with you. Dude what planet have you been on for the last 20+ years? Dr Roberts has published several studies and results covering just that, as have the FBI. Some of that data is available here in the Ammo Forum and on a couple other websites where the good Dr posts. The FBI data you can get if you have the credentials. However there is also other data published online. Roberts, G.K, "Time for a Change", NDIA Dallas Tx 2008 (I know this briefing is available online) "Federal .223 RifleBook" (hint it's on their website) Roberts, G.K., "The Wounding Effects of 5.56mm/.223 Law Enforcement General Purpose Shoulder Fired Carbines Compared With 12 ga. Shtoguns and Pistol Caliber Weapons using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Stimulant," Wound Ballistics Review, 3 (4):16-28, 1998. "M16 A1/A2 Rifle .223 Caliber Penetration Tests (Average Penetration)", Gunsite carbine course handout Lt Stephen C. Robertson, Indianapolis PD, "Rifle Ammunition Performance Through Barriers", Wound Ballistics Review, vol. 2, no. 4, pp. 25-34, 1996. Roberts, GK: "Law Enforcement General Purpose Shoulder Fired Weapons –– The Wounding Effects of 5.56mm/.223 Carbines Compared With 12 Ga. Shotguns and Pistol Caliber Weapons using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant." Police Marksman, July/August 1998. |
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Until then (with fragmentation and deflection being a separate issue) I am going to go with the logical assumption that a hard narrow pointy shape is going to have better penetration than a flat wide shape when travelling through some materials. You know what they say about assumptions.... You might want to read some of the published tests above, they showed FMJ in .223 actually had penetration issues due to them breaking up - even M855. Remember M855 was designed to do 1 thing - penetrate a USGI steel pot at 600m. That's it, no gel study after penetration, just penetrate and it met the criteria. Prior to the OTMs being acknowledge as 'better', FMJ was suggested for home defense use specifically because things like drywall (and it's tendency to fragment) reduced it terminal performance to below FBI/IWBA standards after going through drywall. Modern 'barrier blind rounds' that I mentioned earleri were SPECIFICALLY designed to meet FBI (plywood, drywall, glass, sheet steel) and in some cases (ala MK318) Military barrier requirements and still make minimum penetration and expand. |
KISS 
i'm not even a fan of striped or progressive loading in a shotgun mag because it's hard to know what's next. don't see any point in doing it in a mag fed rifle either. if you have a different ammo, load it in other mags and make sure you can dell the difference without looking at the mag or ammo and stopping to think about it. i.e.: GI 20 and 30 rd mags, GI and P mags, or mags with magpuls or not. tape or paint on a mag wouldn't be so great because it's something you have to look for. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Show me a study that proves that expanding ammo is superior in 90% or greater against all materials that you are likely to encounter in a fire fight at close to intermediate distances with the ballistics gelatin being protected by a variety clothing and types of armor and I will agree with you. Dude what planet have you been on for the last 20+ years? Dr Roberts has published several studies and results covering just that, as have the FBI. Some of that data is available here in the Ammo Forum and on a couple other websites where the good Dr posts. The FBI data you can get if you have the credentials. However there is also other data published online. Roberts, G.K, "Time for a Change", NDIA Dallas Tx 2008 (I know this briefing is available online) "Federal .223 RifleBook" (hint it's on their website) Roberts, G.K., "The Wounding Effects of 5.56mm/.223 Law Enforcement General Purpose Shoulder Fired Carbines Compared With 12 ga. Shtoguns and Pistol Caliber Weapons using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Stimulant," Wound Ballistics Review, 3 (4):16-28, 1998. "M16 A1/A2 Rifle .223 Caliber Penetration Tests (Average Penetration)", Gunsite carbine course handout Lt Stephen C. Robertson, Indianapolis PD, "Rifle Ammunition Performance Through Barriers", Wound Ballistics Review, vol. 2, no. 4, pp. 25-34, 1996. Roberts, GK: "Law Enforcement General Purpose Shoulder Fired Weapons –– The Wounding Effects of 5.56mm/.223 Carbines Compared With 12 Ga. Shotguns and Pistol Caliber Weapons using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant." Police Marksman, July/August 1998. First you sniped the following paragraph with the qualifiers: "I have seen many tests with books, plywood, and various stand alone boards, but I want to see them perform against a variety of correctly constructed sections of exterior walls (modern brick, solid brick, wood siding, aluminum siding, cement board siding), rail road ties, 12" hard and soft-wood trees, and any other common barriers that someone would be able to hide behind." I have seen some of the tests performed on single sheets of material shot at close range. The most fail to combine materials, they also shoot through the material at a 90 degree angle, with a single barrel length, and a single distance. Informational but hardly an extensive test and definitely nothing you would typically find in the real world. Which one of the sources that you are citing did testing with the various types of ammo on the following real world penetration scenarios: 12" trees (both hard and softwood), windshield, home exterior (1 sheet of wall board, 3-1/2" insulation, 1/2" ply, and brick/cementboard/aluminum), interior walls (2 sheets separated to simulate a regular wall and another structure simulating an intersection corner), and through the side of a car (several layers of metal with plastic, space, and some fabric in between)? They did test shoot at several angles (say 90, 60, and 45)? At least two distances? How about the gel being covered in standard layers of clothing with and without body armor (though I could live without that one if I had to). Post a direct link to that and I not only would be be very appreciative, I will denounce my current position, edit my posts to reflect my lack of education, and even would make a financial donation to you or this site. I do not spend much time in the ammo section of the site, but I do spend a lot of time on this board; I have seen the topic come up many times, but I have never seen someone link to any thing close to comprehensive. I would be happier than you to be schooled on this, as it would save me lots of money and time doing this myself in the future. However, I am betting that the time and cost involved has prevented it from being done yet. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Until then (with fragmentation and deflection being a separate issue) I am going to go with the logical assumption that a hard narrow pointy shape is going to have better penetration than a flat wide shape when travelling through some materials. You know what they say about assumptions.... You might want to read some of the published tests above, they showed FMJ in .223 actually had penetration issues due to them breaking up - even M855. Remember M855 was designed to do 1 thing - penetrate a USGI steel pot at 600m. That's it, no gel study after penetration, just penetrate and it met the criteria. Prior to the OTMs being acknowledge as 'better', FMJ was suggested for home defense use specifically because things like drywall (and it's tendency to fragment) reduced it terminal performance to below FBI/IWBA standards after going through drywall. Modern 'barrier blind rounds' that I mentioned earleri were SPECIFICALLY designed to meet FBI (plywood, drywall, glass, sheet steel) and in some cases (ala MK318) Military barrier requirements and still make minimum penetration and expand. I am not disagreeing with the facts you post there. However, if you would re-read the first line you quoted, you will see that I acknowledge that there are fragmention and deflection issues to consider, but in cases that is not occurring, then I would make the assumption I did. |
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I mix rounds in new mags. Steel fmj, fmj different weight, otm, etc... To test the new mag to see if it feeds in adverse conditions. But I dont leave mags loaded this way for shtf.
I did when we had a rash of drive by shootings at intersections have my EDC mags loaded with fmj then HP rounds just for the occasion. But they were all factory and pistol mags. set up for the obvious threat. I know of a few bikers around here that still do that due to subjects wanting to get frisky on the interstate at night when they are riding. |