[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Mag Retention (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 10/8/2010 7:50:11 PM EDT
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I figured this belonged here due to the problem of running out of magazines long term.
So I am NOT talking about a tactical reload where you are just topping off the gun. So in a conflict do you retain the mag or not when your mag runs dry. Do you always use the dump pouch so you have those mags, or are their times you do or don't use it etc? |
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Mags are (relatively) cheap and I have more than a lifetime supply. Assuming I'm in a mobile firefight I could care less about taking the time to retain mags. For soldiers who have other soldiers around to keep up the fire it makes some sense to retain mags. For me not so much. |
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Quoted: Go back and pick them up after you win. And if you don't win, it doesn't much matter that you dropped them. This I've always thought trying to retain a empty mag during a gunfight is stupid. Even if your having to break contact and run is taking the time fiddling with an empty mag worth risking your life.... |
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When in a firefight, win first.
When your weapon runs dry, it's a pretty good bet that there are other people out there actively trying to kill you. So reload your weapon first. Pick up your magazines once there is a lull in the action. If you lose a magazine....oh wel. And, if you are in a survival situation, you should be avoiding firefights not looking for them. If you know you will be in a gunfight tomorrow....don't get out of bed. |
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If I am defending my home, why bother?
If I am running and gunning with my bug out gear, trying to get away from a fight, why bother? I am not risking my life for something I have 150 copies of. I carry all my ammo in magazines so I have no reason at all to retain them. In short, buy more magazines now, when they are super cheap. I might have to pick up another case of P mags in the next year or so. |
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I'm going against the grain with some of the replies. I train to retain my magazines because I won't have a supply warehouse to resupply me if I just dump my mags when they are empty come TSHTF. BugOut from point A to point B and get into a firefight, I'll fight to win but not every time you'll be in one spot to recover mags. Defending a convoy, neighborhood or acreage while running/moving through it are you really going to remember exactly where you dumped a empty or half full magazine at then spend a couple hours looking for it?
#1 rule, don't GET INTO a firefight then if you do get into one, do you stand and fight it out, or disengage to fight another day, or ambush the SOB later in the day. I carry a Maxpedition dump pouch on my gear for two reasons, to have a place to put empty magazines and a place to dump something I don't have time to open up and put into a pouch or pack that I find along the way. Just like with every thing, different strokes for different folks. |
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I'm going against the grain with some of the replies. I train to retain my magazines because I won't have a supply warehouse to resupply me if I just dump my mags when they are empty come TSHTF. BugOut from point A to point B and get into a firefight, I'll fight to win but not every time you'll be in one spot to recover mags. Defending a convoy, neighborhood or acreage while running/moving through it are you really going to remember exactly where you dumped a empty or half full magazine at then spend a couple hours looking for it? #1 rule, don't GET INTO a firefight then if you do get into one, do you stand and fight it out, or disengage to fight another day, or ambush the SOB later in the day. I carry a Maxpedition dump pouch on my gear for two reasons, to have a place to put empty magazines and a place to dump something I don't have time to open up and put into a pouch or pack that I find along the way. Just like with every thing, different strokes for different folks. I will address this one situation at a time. You are bugging out. Are you on foot and going to a place where you have no supplies at all? Bad idea. You cannot carry a lifetime supply of ammo in your pack. Don't even try. It will weigh you down and kill you. You are bugging out and defending a convoy, neighborhood, or acreage. You don't have more mags in the vehicles? Why not? If you are defending a static position, then you can pick them up as you find them again. You should have plenty that the few fire fights you get into are not going to deplete your reserves. When I bug out, I am going somewhere that I have prepositioned magazines and ammo. When I bug out via vehicle, I will have 30 or 40 magazines with me and twice that many at my BOL. That is because I have the ability to buy and plan ahead now, instead of going into the wilderness with what I have on my back. If I ever bug out on foot, all of my ammo will be in magazines. That way retaining mags would be pointless. I will be too busy running my ass off and hiding to sit around a camp fire loading mags and chopping at trees with my rambo knife. None of this is meant as a flame. You are going against the grain for a reason. Just trying to show you the mindset that makes me not give a hoot about my magazines once they have served the purpose of saving my bacon. After reading this thread, I may pick up another 50 mags just to round me up to around 200 mags. I have 4, soon to be 5 AR's. I have 4, soon to be 5 friends who have AR's. I agree with TJ about knowing the right thing to do when the time comes. I just plan ahead on not caring because I can afford to stock up ahead of time. |
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Quoted: I'm not trying to be flippant with my answer but this one of those things you will know what to do when the time comes. Train to retain but you'll dump it when its prudent. Tj I disagree with this. Train exactly how you plan to fight. Some of the changes in tactics resulting from the Newhall CHP massacre can be applied here. One of the patrolmen killed was reported to have pocketed his brass while reloading as he had been instructed to do while training on the range. If you're lucky the best you'll do in a gunfight is revert to your training. Whether this lead to his death or not is impossible to know, but anyone can agree retaining brass or mags is not the fastest way to get back in the fight. |
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Mag retention reminds me of the story's i've heard by at least two different trainers who've told stories of police officers being found dead after gunfights with either empty brass in their pockets or in their hands from revolvers because they were trained to put it in their pocket. I have no idea if those stories are true urban legend plain out fabrication or not..... or if that fact made any difference in the fight. I just know i see no value in wasting time messing with anything that isn't going to help me win during a life and death confrontation. |
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Empty mags go on the ground. So do those trying to carry on armed conflict with no more magazines for their weapons. Or in the ground, if someone is feeling generous. Mags don't grow on trees. Neither do weapons. Does anyone seriously advocate tossing weapons on the ground when you're out of ammunition, as well? Of course not, though sometimes that might be the right thing to do. If you CAN retain the mag, do so. No one is telling you to die just so you can stick it in a pocket or something. This isn't rocket science. |
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Empty mags go on the ground. So do those trying to carry on armed conflict with no more magazines for their weapons. Or in the ground, if someone is feeling generous. Mags don't grow on trees. Neither do weapons. Does anyone seriously advocate tossing weapons on the ground when you're out of ammunition, as well? Of course not, though sometimes that might be the right thing to do. If you CAN retain the mag, do so. No one is telling you to die just so you can stick it in a pocket or something. This isn't rocket science. You're right it isn't. If your magazine is empty, that means that you have been shooting at someone. If you aren't doing a tactical reload that means that in the process of shooting at someone, your bolt locked back. That's a problem. A BIG problem. You better find some cover, if you haven't already, and get that weapon reloaded. Reloading your weapon is critical to winning today's gunfight. Retaining your mags will be necessary if you plan to get in future gunfights. Since we all should avoid gunfights if at all possible, I'll focus on getting my weapon reloaded in TODAYS gunfight and if I lose magazines, I'll worry about that AFTER I win todays fight. |
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one thing many need to think about is- we are survivalist we dont have a supply/logistics train to bring parts.ammo,food,mags. if you have already went through 1 30 round mag "fighting" during shtf,then dropping your mags in the dirt or in your dump pouch,pocket what have you is gonna be the least of your worries.If you de ass you should have extras stowed in your ruck,or BOL. If you win, you get your stuff and someone elses stuff....  IMHO like others have said... train to retain,,, but also train to toss em down........ |
| This may sound dumb but... As an LEO I have constantly trained to retain my pistol mags. Consequently I tactical reload faster than most of my peers speed reload. If i accidently drop it... so what I leae it and go. In the rifle/carbine world there is no fast tactical reload since your mags are not as accessible and putting the empty in a bag exposes you too much to incoming fire. While I dont have 150 mags (GOOD GRIEF!!!) I would try to retain mags in a survival situation (EOTWAWKI). But in a SHTF situation where (civil unrest, active shooter etc... and the problem is limited to my general AO) I would dump it and go. like has been said before if you win go back and get it, if not it doesnt matter. |
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Empty mags go on the ground. So do those trying to carry on armed conflict with no more magazines for their weapons. Or in the ground, if someone is feeling generous. Mags don't grow on trees. Neither do weapons. Does anyone seriously advocate tossing weapons on the ground when you're out of ammunition, as well? Of course not, though sometimes that might be the right thing to do. If you CAN retain the mag, do so. No one is telling you to die just so you can stick it in a pocket or something. This isn't rocket science. I didn't say you couldn't pick them up later. If fact, if I won, all the mags on the ground belong to me! |
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I'm not trying to be flippant with my answer but this one of those things you will know what to do when the time comes. Train to retain but you'll dump it when its prudent. Tj I disagree with this. Train exactly how you plan to fight. Some of the changes in tactics resulting from the Newhall CHP massacre can be applied here. One of the patrolmen killed was reported to have pocketed his brass while reloading as he had been instructed to do while training on the range. If you're lucky the best you'll do in a gunfight is revert to your training. Whether this lead to his death or not is impossible to know, but anyone can agree retaining brass or mags is not the fastest way to get back in the fight. I don't care how you train, if you don't think you are in trouble because this one round peg fits every hole thinking is the downfall. Shooting at someone from cover hundreds of yards away is totally different than shooting at someone point blank and a crime scenario and war time scenario totally different. Personally, in a wartime with no logistical support, I'd wait for the guys to go back and pick up their mags to waste them. 
In the Newhall CHP shootout, it was passerby who lived because he took cover in a ditch. Sounds like a hell of a lot of training didn't work that day. Tj |
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I'm one more who trains and has always trained to retain mags. I'd only drop one instead of sticking it in an empty spot in my pouch if I was stupid enough to put myself in a situation in the open, on the fly, not doing a tactical mag change before moving. Looking at mags other than to be saved as best as possible is foolish to me. They don't last forever in my experience and you can't always come back to the spot you dropped them. Even to think you will remember exactly where you dropped each one if you're under that much fire is foolish. If I'm under that much fire too without support, I better get my ass out of there fast and I'm certainly not coming back to look for mags. Which means I lost a bunch of mags having dropped them instead of retaining them if I could have. When buggin out too I'll be carrying more ammo cans with boxed ammo since I can carry more spare rounds per space and weight than loaded mags. If I'm not buggin out and fighting from home that's different as than those dropped mags will be better contained, but otherwise no. To each his own though. Do what you feel is best for you, but I learned a long time ago what other people do isn't always what's best to/for me. |
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I asked a co-worker who served in raq about this once.He replied that most guys would try to retain their mags in a firefight,only leaving them on the ground if things got really hairy.Afterwards, if possible, they would go and retrieve them.His personal method of retention was paracord(think Magpul) and a carabiner,I tried and and did not care for it,YMMV.
Andy McNab in his book Bravo Two Zero mentions throwing mags down his shirt to retain them;this in the middle of a firefight while being heavily outnumbered.Also, both Mc Nab and John Plaster(Ultimate Sniper author and SOG member) have said that spare ammo was carried to refill magazines later,unless they went out with empty mags they could only be referring to mags expended in a fight.Gunwriter Patrick Sweeney wrote in an article that his father in WW2 threw his empties down his shirt. There may be no "right" answer on this.If I'm behind cover or in a good position I will try to retain them.If things are so dire I can't, I'm not going to lose sleep over losing a mag or two.My solution is to train for both situations. The example of the LEOs who died putting their brass in their pockets is tragic, but proper training can overcome this.Think about it: elite military units and law enforcement have shoot/no shoot drills and hostage scenarios that require you to evaluate the situation not respond like a robot.No reason this couldn't carry over to mag retention. |
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I'm one more who trains and has always trained to retain mags. I'd only drop one instead of sticking it in an empty spot in my pouch if I was stupid enough to put myself in a situation in the open, on the fly, not doing a tactical mag change before moving. Looking at mags other than to be saved as best as possible is foolish to me. They don't last forever in my experience and you can't always come back to the spot you dropped them. Even to think you will remember exactly where you dropped each one if you're under that much fire is foolish. If I'm under that much fire too without support, I better get my ass out of there fast and I'm certainly not coming back to look for mags. Which means I lost a bunch of mags having dropped them instead of retaining them if I could have. When buggin out too I'll be carrying more ammo cans with boxed ammo since I can carry more spare rounds per space and weight than loaded mags. If I'm not buggin out and fighting from home that's different as than those dropped mags will be better contained, but otherwise no. To each his own though. Do what you feel is best for you, but I learned a long time ago what other people do isn't always what's best to/for me. When you are bugging out, you have time to load magazines? Even when bugging out by vehicle? Why would more ammo matter when quick access to ammo is absolutely critical? Why does the actual number of rounds trump you getting to what you have instantly? If you empty magazine after magazine while trying to defend your convoy or family BOV, are you really going to stop shooting and reload mags? I cannot understand why my large ammo can with 30 loaded P mags, loaded with 900 rounds of M855 ball is not as good as an ammo can with 1200 rounds of boxed ammo, and 6 or 8 mags in my chest rig. None of this is intended to flame, but maybe show my reasoning and possibly change yours. I am aware its different strokes for different folks, but I would be doing you a disservice if I did not point you in what I consider the right direction. That is why we are here. Its has been my turn to have my mind changed many, many times. The money I spend now on what you may consider a ridiculous number of magazines allows me the luxury of not taking a couple seconds to retain them in a fire fight. I have many cans of magazines loaded and ready to go all the time. I may have to put another can of mags together in the next few months, just for the hell of it. |
I have always trained not to retain empty mags, with one exception. My line of thinking is to retain my last mag, as I will still be capable of having a fully loaded, functional weapon in the the event that I acquire more loose ammo. Of course, this doesn't cut into reload time, as there is nothing more to reload 
This thread reminds me of some of the experiences I've heard from remote, desolate parts of the world, where some individuals favor the sks over ak-type rifles for the very reason that the sks can run without the use of detachable, easy to lose magazines. |
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quote/This thread reminds me of some of the experiences I've heard from remote, desolate parts of the world, where some individuals favor the sks over ak-type rifles for the very reason that the sks can run without the use of detachable, easy to lose magazines/end quote
Thus the reason to train how not to "lose" your mags. There will be no 24hr. constant exchange in a civilian context (if so, many will die no matter how high speed.) Downtime is for cleaning wapons, reload empties/replace lost mags, eat, & sleep. Of course, self preservation should kick in if you aren't aware enough to top off before engaging again (there is a rythym to this), then the mag goes to ground. My .01 w/no prior .mil expierience. |
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If you train, you can drop an empty mag from your weapon, retain it, get in a fresh mag, and get your weapon back in action much faster than you think. Do it a few hundred times and you'd be surprised how little time it takes to stow that empty. And with a modest amount of training you will be faster than 99.9% of the people you may end up fighting.
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Quoted: If you train, you can drop an empty mag from your weapon, retain it, get in a fresh mag, and get your weapon back in action much faster than you think. Do it a few hundred times and you'd be surprised how little time it takes to stow that empty. And with a modest amount of training you will be faster than 99.9% of the people you may end up fighting. And you will still be faster if you let it hit the ground if you invest that same amount of training........ I reload slow so i don't have time to fuck around with empty mags I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut a bean counter came up with mag retention in the army to help save money on mags. |
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Quoted: Quoted: If you train, you can drop an empty mag from your weapon, retain it, get in a fresh mag, and get your weapon back in action much faster than you think. Do it a few hundred times and you'd be surprised how little time it takes to stow that empty. And with a modest amount of training you will be faster than 99.9% of the people you may end up fighting. And you will still be faster if you let it hit the ground if you invest that same amount of training........ I reload slow so i don't have time to fuck around with empty mags I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut a bean counter came up with mag retention in the army to help save money on mags. Yep, rule number one of gunfighting is have a gun, corollary to rule number one is have a loaded gun. The second or so that you are stowing empty mags you are violating the most basic tenet. Yeah it's only a small amount of time, but I feel it's more important to get back into action than it is to worry about mags. Now from a military perspective where you have a large group of freinds who can shoot if needed it's a different story, but your average SFer probably doesn't have a fire team with him. Win the fight and pick up the pieces after if safe to do so. |
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If you train, you can drop an empty mag from your weapon, retain it, get in a fresh mag, and get your weapon back in action much faster than you think. Do it a few hundred times and you'd be surprised how little time it takes to stow that empty. And with a modest amount of training you will be faster than 99.9% of the people you may end up fighting. And you will still be faster if you let it hit the ground if you invest that same amount of training........ I reload slow so i don't have time to fuck around with empty mags
I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut a bean counter came up with mag retention in the army to help save money on mags. I'm not gonna take that bet because: I know that detachable magazines were nixed at least once because the soldier might loose his magazine. |
| The answer it that it all depends on the nature of the fight. If you have time to manage ammo, by all means, keep your empty mags. If it is a run and gun, keep the gun running, to hell with the empties. The situation dictates the tactics, techniques,and procedures, not the other way around! |
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I'm one more who trains and has always trained to retain mags. I'd only drop one instead of sticking it in an empty spot in my pouch if I was stupid enough to put myself in a situation in the open, on the fly, not doing a tactical mag change before moving. Looking at mags other than to be saved as best as possible is foolish to me. They don't last forever in my experience and you can't always come back to the spot you dropped them. Even to think you will remember exactly where you dropped each one if you're under that much fire is foolish. If I'm under that much fire too without support, I better get my ass out of there fast and I'm certainly not coming back to look for mags. Which means I lost a bunch of mags having dropped them instead of retaining them if I could have. When buggin out too I'll be carrying more ammo cans with boxed ammo since I can carry more spare rounds per space and weight than loaded mags. If I'm not buggin out and fighting from home that's different as than those dropped mags will be better contained, but otherwise no. To each his own though. Do what you feel is best for you, but I learned a long time ago what other people do isn't always what's best to/for me. When you are bugging out, you have time to load magazines? Even when bugging out by vehicle? Why would more ammo matter when quick access to ammo is absolutely critical? Why does the actual number of rounds trump you getting to what you have instantly? If you empty magazine after magazine while trying to defend your convoy or family BOV, are you really going to stop shooting and reload mags? I cannot understand why my large ammo can with 30 loaded P mags, loaded with 900 rounds of M855 ball is not as good as an ammo can with 1200 rounds of boxed ammo, and 6 or 8 mags in my chest rig. None of this is intended to flame, but maybe show my reasoning and possibly change yours. I am aware its different strokes for different folks, but I would be doing you a disservice if I did not point you in what I consider the right direction. That is why we are here. Its has been my turn to have my mind changed many, many times. The money I spend now on what you may consider a ridiculous number of magazines allows me the luxury of not taking a couple seconds to retain them in a fire fight. I have many cans of magazines loaded and ready to go all the time. I may have to put another can of mags together in the next few months, just for the hell of it. Just to try answer most of those question without getting too wordy, the long term is just as important to me as the short. Even if I was alone, (which I wouldn't likely be) a battle loadout for me is 330 rounds of 5.56x45mm or 140 rounds of 7.62x51mm depending on which weapon I'm carrying. If I have to expend all of those rounds and am still alive than it's by the grace of God. I will have a few more than that as backup/spares in vehicle bugout, but to use the most out of the space and weight hauled as possible, most of the spare rounds I'll be taking besides, will be in ammo cans to carry more ammo for the long term. Magazines are of great importance for the long term and retaining and caring for them as much as possible is only the smarter choice to me. It doesn't take that much more time or effort to if you can than not and possibly loosing or damaging mags. To each his own though. |
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If you train, you can drop an empty mag from your weapon, retain it, get in a fresh mag, and get your weapon back in action much faster than you think. Do it a few hundred times and you'd be surprised how little time it takes to stow that empty. And with a modest amount of training you will be faster than 99.9% of the people you may end up fighting. And you will still be faster if you let it hit the ground if you invest that same amount of training........ No doubt about that. My point is, is the time worth possibly losing the magazine? My opinion, it isn't. Even if you win the fight, you may not get them back, or you may not get them back in a functional state. All things being equal, I'd rather take that bit of time and keep the mag. I've trained that way for awhile now anyway, so it isn't like I'm going to un-train myself and do it another way. I reload slow so i don't have time to fuck around with empty mags
Then you need to get off the internet and train more! (Just kidding ). If it works for you, it works for you, just have a good stash of mags.
I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut a bean counter came up with mag retention in the army to help save money on mags. Easier to bring in cases of ammo on a resupply, than cases of ammo and magazines. |
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I love how some people here think that they will be in endless firefights in a SHTF situation.
You better survive the one you are in today because if you don't, you won't be able to be in any more. If you plan to get in many firefights during a SHTF situation, you are an idiot. |
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Empty mags go on the ground. So do those trying to carry on armed conflict with no more magazines for their weapons. Or in the ground, if someone is feeling generous. Mags don't grow on trees. Neither do weapons. Does anyone seriously advocate tossing weapons on the ground when you're out of ammunition, as well? Of course not, though sometimes that might be the right thing to do. If you CAN retain the mag, do so. No one is telling you to die just so you can stick it in a pocket or something. This isn't rocket science. You're right it isn't. If your magazine is empty, that means that you have been shooting at someone. If you aren't doing a tactical reload that means that in the process of shooting at someone, your bolt locked back. That's a problem. A BIG problem. You better find some cover, if you haven't already, and get that weapon reloaded. Reloading your weapon is critical to winning today's gunfight. Retaining your mags will be necessary if you plan to get in future gunfights. Since we all should avoid gunfights if at all possible, I'll focus on getting my weapon reloaded in TODAYS gunfight and if I lose magazines, I'll worry about that AFTER I win todays fight. This. Dump empties and retain partials with tac reloads. It's a simple issue. End thread. |
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If your mag is empty, and you need more bullets downrange, it would make sense to reload in the fastest way possible. I've never met someone who can retain a mag faster than dropping it.
If your mag is not empty, you are probably reloading by choice. If you made the choice to reload when you don't need to, you probably have a little time. Here it would make sense to save a partial mag. If your mag is empty, but you also have time to spare, I guess you can save yourself $15 and retain it. I just don't think the percentages are there for this happening often (at least with an AR/AK). |
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Empty mags go on the ground. So do those trying to carry on armed conflict with no more magazines for their weapons. Or in the ground, if someone is feeling generous. Mags don't grow on trees. Neither do weapons. Does anyone seriously advocate tossing weapons on the ground when you're out of ammunition, as well? Of course not, though sometimes that might be the right thing to do. If you CAN retain the mag, do so. No one is telling you to die just so you can stick it in a pocket or something. This isn't rocket science. You're right it isn't. If your magazine is empty, that means that you have been shooting at someone. If you aren't doing a tactical reload that means that in the process of shooting at someone, your bolt locked back. That's a problem. A BIG problem. You better find some cover, if you haven't already, and get that weapon reloaded. Reloading your weapon is critical to winning today's gunfight. Retaining your mags will be necessary if you plan to get in future gunfights. Since we all should avoid gunfights if at all possible, I'll focus on getting my weapon reloaded in TODAYS gunfight and if I lose magazines, I'll worry about that AFTER I win todays fight. This. Dump empties and retain partials with tac reloads. It's a simple issue. End thread. It much more complicated than that and is all situationaly dependent based on proximity to the threat |
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If you are assaulting and clearing a position, there is chance you won't find your dropped magazines.
I have seen it dozens of times on live fire and maneuver courses. Even if you get the whole platoon on line afterwords people still end up not recovering all their magazines. |
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good discussion guys! Now we know which people need to buy more mags. Well, don't look at me. I have a crap load of mags because I can't tell you if I will be dumping them or not, whether I will win this fight and go back and pick them up, or even if I survive I'll want to or even can go back and pick them up. My crystal ball isn't that good. I don't need one to know though if you stop thinking, your odds just went to hell because no two scenarios are ever the same. Though it is true without a doubt you will never know how you will do until you have been there, I think too many people put too much emphasis being the lowest common denominator on many topics. This one especially because if you can't think enough to know now is not the time or is the time to be pocketing mags then you are probably standing in the wide open fixing to get your ass shot off anyway.
There's a lot of things you should deal with before mag retention or hell before that mag goes empty. Tj |
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There is an interesting article in the March 2010 Edition SWAT magazine written by a Marine about when he was wounded in Iraq in 2003. He sights in the article that he was taught to reload his M16 on the rifle range and that process involved retaining the mag, putting it in a pouch and then doing the reload.
He went on to say that among other things that if he was taught to abandon the mag and just worry about getting the gun back into action he probably would not have been shot during the encounter he writes about. The article was written after the marine attended a Trident Concepts Combative Carbine course. the marine is now in a wheelchair. When he was shot the round severed his spine at the T12/L1 level and he is now permanently paralyzed from the waist down. |
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There is an interesting article in the March 2010 Edition SWAT magazine written by a Marine about when he was wounded in Iraq in 2003. He sights in the article that he was taught to reload his M16 on the rifle range and that process involved retaining the mag, putting it in a pouch and then doing the reload. He went on to say that among other things that if he was taught to abandon the mag and just worry about getting the gun back into action he probably would not have been shot during the encounter he writes about. The article was written after the marine attended a Trident Concepts Combative Carbine course. the marine is now in a wheelchair. When he was shot the round severed his spine at the T12/L1 level and he is now permanently paralyzed from the waist down. He was paralyzed because he failed (or wasn't properly instructed) to do a number of fundamental concepts. 1) Keep the rifle up in your workspace, so you can still use your peripheral vision to scan for threats. (Would have seen the threat appear) 2) Not squaring up to the threat so you can utilize your armor most effectively (Round went in his side and hit his spine) I don't understand why there is so much flak about mag retention. War is played by big boy rules. I don't care what _____ official regulation says. Every situation is different, and YOU need to know how to adapt. That's why special ops is a think first mentality. If you're behind cover and your threat is 300 yards away, that's a completely different situation from being a door kicker w/o a pistol and your bolt just locked back. |
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How I was taught....
Drop, Win, Recover My viewpoint/opinion is that doing anything other than dropping the mag cost time. IF I was to be in a situation that lasted beyond one mag and I run the gun DRY there is NO way that I am going to take the time to store an empty. I would try my hardest to keep the weapon topped up as much as possible, but under stress that can become VERY hard to do consistently, effectively, and quickly. Also, indexing half full and quarter full mags in your gear takes time if you are topping up. |
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There is an interesting article in the March 2010 Edition SWAT magazine written by a Marine about when he was wounded in Iraq in 2003. He sights in the article that he was taught to reload his M16 on the rifle range and that process involved retaining the mag, putting it in a pouch and then doing the reload. He went on to say that among other things that if he was taught to abandon the mag and just worry about getting the gun back into action he probably would not have been shot during the encounter he writes about. The article was written after the marine attended a Trident Concepts Combative Carbine course. the marine is now in a wheelchair. When he was shot the round severed his spine at the T12/L1 level and he is now permanently paralyzed from the waist down. He was paralyzed because he failed (or wasn't properly instructed) to do a number of fundamental concepts. 1) Keep the rifle up in your workspace, so you can still use your peripheral vision to scan for threats. (Would have seen the threat appear) 2) Not squaring up to the threat so you can utilize your armor most effectively (Round went in his side and hit his spine) I don't understand why there is so much flak about mag retention. War is played by big boy rules. I don't care what _____ official regulation says. Every situation is different, and YOU need to know how to adapt. That's why special ops is a think first mentality. If you're behind cover and your threat is 300 yards away, that's a completely different situation from being a door kicker w/o a pistol and your bolt just locked back. That is why I always tell my Marines, I want someone who can keep their head and think instead of someone who does things as trained everytime. The book or the school often is not close to the situation on hand, so do what is appropriate for the situation and not just because. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
There is an interesting article in the March 2010 Edition SWAT magazine written by a Marine about when he was wounded in Iraq in 2003. He sights in the article that he was taught to reload his M16 on the rifle range and that process involved retaining the mag, putting it in a pouch and then doing the reload. He went on to say that among other things that if he was taught to abandon the mag and just worry about getting the gun back into action he probably would not have been shot during the encounter he writes about. The article was written after the marine attended a Trident Concepts Combative Carbine course. the marine is now in a wheelchair. When he was shot the round severed his spine at the T12/L1 level and he is now permanently paralyzed from the waist down. He was paralyzed because he failed (or wasn't properly instructed) to do a number of fundamental concepts. 1) Keep the rifle up in your workspace, so you can still use your peripheral vision to scan for threats. (Would have seen the threat appear) 2) Not squaring up to the threat so you can utilize your armor most effectively (Round went in his side and hit his spine) I don't understand why there is so much flak about mag retention. War is played by big boy rules. I don't care what _____ official regulation says. Every situation is different, and YOU need to know how to adapt. That's why special ops is a think first mentality. If you're behind cover and your threat is 300 yards away, that's a completely different situation from being a door kicker w/o a pistol and your bolt just locked back. In the article the marine did say those things also but in this case I think he could of handled the situation if he had dumped the mag rather than retaining it and putting it in his mag pouch. He writes in the artlicle that he did not think of mags as disposable. It seems that he was not trained properly regarding reloading period. I am sure that if he was taught how to retain a mag in a dump pouch and not cram it back in his regular mag pouch things would have been different. As an aside he also writes that he had to keep his mags in his pouch rounds up because the rounds would pop out of the mag in his pouch if they were carried rounds down. So i would say that he was equipped with worn out mags. |