Posted: 2/16/2010 8:37:24 PM EDT
| I was reading this article about old time anesthetics and such. The article said chloroform was onced used. Eventually we stopped using it because it can cause death if dosed incorrectly and its now thought to be a carcinogen. However, it is very easy to make. The process involves adding acetone (aka nail polish remover) to powdered bleach. Two readily available ingriedients. I am not an expert by any means but I thought I would bring this to everyone's attention as the topic of how get certain types of medicine when they are not commercially availbale comes up frequently. I don't know the amounts to add I'm sure it could be found on google.. Its seems risky but you never know when a situtation could arise that would justify that risk. As always the disclaimer I am not an MD or chemist and as stated above if not dosed correctly it could be fatal. Food for thought at least. Chloroform |
| Interesting idea, but I'd be hard pressed to make my own chloroform and then try and anesthetize someone with it, and I've got the background to do both. I can't imagine being in a situation where that's what I'd do. Please don't try it. Putting people to sleep is only part of the job. You've got to be able to wake them up too. |
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This idea makes me uncomfortably puckered.
Chloroform is an interesting bit of anesthesia history, but I've been thinking about this for a solid 5 or 6 minutes now. My vivid imagination can't really come up with a remotely plausible scenario in which homebrewed chloroform delivered by a layperson, or even most medical professionals, would be better than some encouraging words and perhaps a leather belt to bite. If you're thinking an unequipped surgeon & anesthesiologist/CRNA might happen by in your moment of need, willing and able to help, if only they had some tools and supplies - well, an anesthetic drug is just one of a dozen critical things that would have to fall in line before, during, and after the surgery, whatever that surgery is. If you've got the other stuff they need, why not something better than an old, inhaled drug that's 3 or 4 generations out of date? I'm an anesthesiologist, and even the stuff I have stashed away at home for when Bad Days are upon us doesn't include anesthetic drugs. Granted, most of the really useful ones are controlled substances, but legal issues aren't the only reasons I don't have them. |
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Quoted: This idea makes me uncomfortably puckered. Chloroform is an interesting bit of anesthesia history, but I've been thinking about this for a solid 5 or 6 minutes now. My vivid imagination can't really come up with a remotely plausible scenario in which homebrewed chloroform delivered by a layperson, or even most medical professionals, would be better than some encouraging words and perhaps a leather belt to bite. If you're thinking an unequipped surgeon & anesthesiologist/CRNA might happen by in your moment of need, willing and able to help, if only they had some tools and supplies - well, an anesthetic drug is just one of a dozen critical things that would have to fall in line before, during, and after the surgery, whatever that surgery is. If you've got the other stuff they need, why not something better than an old, inhaled drug that's 3 or 4 generations out of date? I'm an anesthesiologist, and even the stuff I have stashed away at home for when Bad Days are upon us doesn't include anesthetic drugs. Granted, most of the really useful ones are controlled substances, but legal issues aren't the only reasons I don't have them. /thread |
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This idea makes me uncomfortably puckered. +1000 "In the United States, chloroform began to replace ether as an anesthetic at the beginning of the 20th century; however, it was quickly abandoned upon discovery of its toxicity, especially its tendency to cause fatal cardiac arrhythmia analogous to what is now termed "sudden sniffer's death". Add to that unstabilized Choroform degrades into Phosgene which combines with moisture found in the lungs to form hydrochloric acid and carbon dioxide. You don't have to be a doctor to figure out what Hydrochloric acid does to lung tissue. I can't come up with a single imaginable scenario where I'd want my Doctor to have access to it much less me think that I was going to somehow use it. Doctor's in third world countries don't even use it and for many of them everyday is a SHTF scenario. |
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Quoted: Much safer to let them pass out from drinking.  ) or another anesthesiologist or an anesthesia technician. At least a doctor from another specialty or a general practitioner. Someone, anyone trained on field surgery is ok too. Ketamine is dangerous, has serious abuse and addiction potential. It is also a wonderful anesthetic. Another very real possibility is making a strong tea out of poppy pods. Poppy pod tea information is free online, just search for it.Quoted: I'm an anesthesiologist, and even the stuff I have stashed away at home for when Bad Days are upon us doesn't include anesthetic drugs. Granted, most of the really useful ones are controlled substances, but legal issues aren't the only reasons I don't have them. Shame on you! No delicious ampules of fentanyl tucked away like deadly little babies at home? I'd have a case. A truckload!  Just kidding. |
| I would agree that Ketamine is the only semi safe drug to use without adequate monitoring. IRRC, the military uses it for field amputations. It's mainly used by Veterinarians in this country. There are some hitches though. It has an emergence reaction that can be a hassle. It usually jacks up the blood pressure and heart rate considerably in addition to maintaining their airway. So, if you give to an old person, they could possibly pop a gasket (ie stroke or heart attack). Sometimes, especially in overdose, they can get a bit snotty with it (ie. lots of secretions). It's also an illicit drug that can get you arrested if you're not licensed. It's not a prescription you're doctor is going to give you to have at home. |
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I'd just stick to booze. But I remember reading something about extracting ether from starting fluid...that would most surely be safer that making your own chloroform and you can keep a can of starting fluid on the shelf a long time. Speed i was thinking the same. i wouldn't want to go experimenting mixing acetone with powdered bleach, especially not knowing how any additives/fillers might react let alone how to dose it. |
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For small stuff like stitches etc., just use an electronic anesthesia unit. EA's are relatively cheap ($500?) and work. I know. I have one and occasionally use it. They are available through vet supply places and look like a tens unit.
What the OP stated scares the crap out of me. |
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I'm going to agree with gasdoc on this one.
DIY chloroform is perhaps one of the worst ideas ever floated on arfcom, and I have been around here long enough to see LOTS of really bad ideas. Should things ever get so bad that we are living a medieval lifestyle, having a good anesthetic is not going to be a priority. Spend your effort trying to grow penicillin, at least you can remotely justify that, and probably not kill anyone in the manufacturing and testing phases. The expression "bite the bullet" came from surgery in the days before true anesthesia. Stash a couple of extra rounds in your bag, so if you ever find yourself doing an emergency appendectomy during TEOTWAWKI you have it covered. |
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So the layman should stick with; - placebo - mind relaxation techniques (meditation/prayer) - booze - deal with it (bite the bullet) - over the counter Is a local topical anesthetic going to be of any use in say a finger loss situation? There is only one I know of on the OTC market (the stuff for sore throats). Any other suggestions on that? For myself, there's no way in hell I am going to use a central nervous system shutdown type anesthetic as an untrained person. |
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If things get so bad that your only anesthesia option is homebrewed chloroform, I suspect the lack of sanitation during the surgery will kill you anyway.
A fast acting oral benzo would probably be the best semi-safe option for a layman in that situation. Lay them out with Xanax or Versed oral liquid. All are controlled substances. |
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Yep, I still remember getting ether as a small child to get my tonsils out. I still remember the black mask when they put it over my face, the dream I had, of riding a black ballon with the air escaping out of it, flying around the room and trying to cut the tail off the ballon with a pair of sicissors. And the sick taste I had when I woke up. |
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How about clorolhydrate, (ethanol and bleach powder) and ethanol ,(mickey finn)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloral_hydrate |
No no no no no no no no no  do not ever try to homebrew anesthetics. Bleach powder? Are you kidding? Get some poppy seeds, hell buy them by the sack and put them in buckets with mylar. Just don't ever try to cook up your own anesthetics. The least thing that could happen is you'd die, or someone else. The worst is you'd be incapacitating people seriously and making them a real liability in a high risk situation like TEOTWAWKI.
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Is a local topical anesthetic going to be of any use in say a finger loss situation? There is only one I know of on the OTC market (the stuff for sore throats). Any other suggestions on that? Topical anesthetics aren't going to do much if anything at all for deep tissue or bone pain, even something relatively minor like a smashed or amputated finger. Digital nerve blocks (fingers or toes) with plain 1% or 2% lidocaine (not the stuff with epinephrine) are a good thing for anyone to know. They're super easy, almost impossible to screw up if you've seen or done one before, safe, and effective. If you're desperate and have a reference book handy, you might even push the envelope a bit and block an entire foot/hand by hitting nerves at the ankle/wrist but I wouldn't go any further up the limb than that (for several reasons). Once you start chasing named nerves individually (as opposed to field infiltration) you're buying some risk of nerve injury if you inadvertently inject into the body of the nerve itself. Injectable lidocaine is rx-only but it's not controlled. The toxic dose is high (~4mg/kg or about 30 cc of 1% in your average 70 kg adult) and you can't really get yourself in trouble with local infiltration of a wound or blocks below the elbow/ankle. I'd even go so far as to call it safe for laypeople to try ... though efficacy is going to depend on skill and practice. Those are my thoughts for remote/austere/wilderness conditions; this is not something to do if you have other options. |
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Quoted: I'd be really reluctant to let an anesthesia technician or some doctor not trained in anesthesiology give me an anesthetic. Ask Michael Jackson how well his doctor did with his anesthetic. Everyone is different. I'd easily leave my life in the hands of most anesthesia technicians. They're usually quite knowledgeable, laid back types. (And the chicks put out  ) Doctors range from totally ignorant to exceptionally knowledgeable on this issue. I had personal interest in it so I read up, even though I don't really want to become an anesthesiologist. You just can't generalize on this subject.
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I don't see how sourcing all of these things prior to an event that probably won't ever happen would be worth the current legal risk. I think we should all prep for the most likely events. Post SHTF surgery isn't something I'm remotely concerned about because it's way out of my control and way outside my abilities.
Of all the substances previously mentioned this is what I know about them and it is fairly common knowledge anyways... Alcohol wouldn't be ideal for surgery because of the effects it has on coagulation. Opiates cause respiratory depression. They'd be more effectively used during recovery. I think benzos or ketamine would be best used for surgery, but I'm unaware of all the pharmacological effects it has on important systems. Subcutaneous injection of coke would probably work for surface injuries, but sterility is kind of a big issue then. MJ is best left to cancer patients who lack an appetite. Sourcing all of that stuff after an event might be possible because the "vice business" tends to thrive during hard times (historically). Seeking them out may cause another problem all together... |
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I'd be really reluctant to let an anesthesia technician or some doctor not trained in anesthesiology give me an anesthetic. Ask Michael Jackson how well his doctor did with his anesthetic. Everyone is different. I'd easily leave my life in the hands of most anesthesia technicians. They're usually quite knowledgeable, laid back types. (And the chicks put out ) Doctors range from totally ignorant to exceptionally knowledgeable on this issue. I had personal interest in it so I read up, even though I don't really want to become an anesthesiologist. You just can't generalize on this subject.I don't think I am over-generalizing. I'm an anesthesiologist and work with anesthesia techs daily and may be in a position to have a little more experience and insight. I also get to see the incredibly poor skills most other physicians have dealing with airways. Throw in the physiologic changes under anesthesia and the possibility for badness, and I'll stick with someone trained in anesthesia. It doesn't take much to start a cascade of events that lead you to where you don't want to go. |