[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Bodyarmor for SHTF (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 12/13/2009 5:08:38 PM EDT
For those of you who think body armor may be necissary for a SHTF type scenario. Vor the vest what do you guys think 3 or 3a? or jsut a lvl 2 flack vest like the old pagst stuff? As for the kevlar (aka helmet for the civies  ) can you cut down the old style kevlars to the ach/mich style cut? I prefer that style and the pagst stuff is dirt cheep copared to the new gear. The other option im thinking about is using the balistic shell from a CVC (same lv 3 protection as a pagst Kpot) only issues are drilling holes for the ACH chinstrap hardwear, and that the side cuts (where the headset part of the CVC liner would go are kinda high,, about 1-11/2" above the ear. That kinda affects side protection but it'd be easier to rig up than cutting down a pagst k-pot and cheaper than an ach/mich set-up. Opinions.
Disclaimer: Before i get flamed and called a retard etc, I know bodyarmor etc is not apropriate for all SHTF situations, but in certain situations it would be pretty nice to have. |
Personally for SHTF I would prefer concealable soft body armor that will stop handgun rounds as I feel that is most likely threat you will face in a SHTF situation. [Ask Ferfal what he recommends.  ] Personally I feel like a level II concealable vest would be best. It's on the "sometime soon wish-list" for me. 
For the end of the world? Get some ceramic or ballistic steel plates rated at level IV. |
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Personally for SHTF I would prefer concealable soft body armor that will stop handgun rounds as I feel that is most likely threat you will face in a SHTF situation. [Ask Ferfal what he recommends. ] Personally I feel like a level II concealable vest would be best. It's on the "sometime soon wish-list" for me.
For the end of the world? Get some ceramic or ballistic steel plates rated at level IV. I generally agree with this. Go with a level II vest. A vest with plates would be great, but pricey I think, and probably not very practical for day-to-day chores and working about. When the time comes to "harden" the BOL should the need arise, I will try to arrange my small acreage to my advantage by using advanced warning, funneling the enemy when I can, and making use of cover in spots I designate. |
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I would not cut up an older helmet to get it ACH style. That can't be good for the integrity of the helmet.
Just wait, there will probably be more ACH/MICH helmets hitting the market and driving the price down. You can also find them on the EE from time to time. |
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Im mainly lookin at mil surp stuff to keep the costs down. Cost is a major factor, I'd rather have good enough gear than be saving for the best gear. Police Surplus Body Armor |
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For those of you who think body armor may be necissary for a SHTF type scenario. Vor the vest what do you guys think 3 or 3a? or jsut a lvl 2 flack vest like the old pagst stuff? As for the kevlar (aka helmet for the civies ) can you cut down the old style kevlars to the ach/mich style cut? I prefer that style and the pagst stuff is dirt cheep copared to the new gear. The other option im thinking about is using the balistic shell from a CVC (same lv 3 protection as a pagst Kpot) only issues are drilling holes for the ACH chinstrap hardwear, and that the side cuts (where the headset part of the CVC liner would go are kinda high,, about 1-11/2" above the ear. That kinda affects side protection but it'd be easier to rig up than cutting down a pagst k-pot and cheaper than an ach/mich set-up. Opinions.
Disclaimer: Before i get flamed and called a retard etc, I know bodyarmor etc is not apropriate for all SHTF situations, but in certain situations it would be pretty nice to have. Cutting down a K Pot would prove incredibly difficult and would probably destroy its integrity. The layers of kevlar in the helmet are laminated and would require special tools to cut. Get a regular helmet from the EE or gunbroker. Get regular concealable armor then get a set of SAPI plates and a plate carrier and keep the helmet the rifle and the plate carrier tucked away. Go low vis until its time to go overt. FYI if your going to do the low vis thing put your armor on, then put your pistol rig, med kit, knife, surefire etc etc and get a jacket that fits over all that. http://v4.beta.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=143106022 |
| ended up with some ceramic plates and a carrier thats a size or 2 too small for me a while ago as part of a trade. Im thinking ideally i'd go with a 2 or 3 conceable police surp vest and a cheap ebay plate carrier with the hard armor to adjust to different stuations and be able to ballance the weight/protection/concealabiity as needed. I could see cutting the Kpot being a real bitch, esp if the fibers fray (depending on how saturated they are with the epoxy) and even if they dont I could see it eating a TON of dremel cuttin wheels. Probably too much effort to make a prototype test it to make sure the modifications dont weaken the kpot then repeat. |
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Anybody ever buy from that police body armor place link listed above ?? Might be in the budget if it's any good ?? http://ferfal.blogspot.com/2008/10/body-armor-and-real-world-use-for-it-in.html |
| For about $369 you can buy a NEW Galls Lite Contour Level IIIA Body Armor used is ok but I have seen how officers treat there body armor and its not good! A lot of them wash there body armor in there washing machine without taking out the ballistic panel's. |
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I bought some armor from PPI, see: Here and have been satisfied with them. I dealt with their Florida rep - he had initially referred me to their PA state rep who was totally useless. Went back to their Florida guy, and after a couple initial hitches with billing, got my armor in a month.
I tried several other companies and they were totally uninterested in selling to we peon civvies. MSA was the worst; they strung me along for more than a month with excuse after excuse. PPI's Python model III-A in Twaron fits well, and while it's a bit heavy (7lbs), was relatively inexpensive ($480ish as I recall). Custom fit, and it is less bulky than my old early '90s era Spectra vest. Due to less bulk, I actually find it conceals better than my old vest, and the added weight isn't noticeable for short term use (haven't worn it all day yet). The weight difference between Level II and III-A is minimal so you might as well do what most police agencies do and get the III-A. Helmet wise, don't have one yet, but I'd prefer the newer ACH/MICH style (I think that is the one that doesn't interfere with wearing rifle plates and going prone)...a bit pricey though. I haven't researched this one in depth yet. Plates, well maybe, but that's another large expense...I need a carrier that'll accommodate the PPI inserts, which PPI does sell...and then try to find the lighter plates (which I need because I'm not a young buck anymore). More expense and hassle. The lighter plates seem to be mostly LEO/.mil only from the casual checking around I've done. I would echo the other posters and say that concealable armor would initially be the best bet along with the ability to go "tactical" if there aren't alot of cops around to mess with you when they see you all decked out. Depends on whether you are trying to blend in while bugging out/discreetly guarding your property or you are in full intimidate the bad guys to move along mode. 
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Before the fire I had a IIIa vest I got cheap from a retiring SWAT officer who had it for less than a year. I would use it when I was going out to patrol the property during hunting season as when I first bought the property 20 years ago I had to run off poachers every year. I would also put it on if something went bump in the night. Now I have an older level II I got when my GF got hers replaced at the highway patrol as part of the regular rotation of equipment.
As far as TEOTWAWKI gear goes, it is not high on my list of things to spend money on first. But if all of the rest of your preps are solid and you have money to spend it isn't a bad thing to have. I would NOT forgo consumables (food, water, fuel) to obtain it. Body armor can be improvised if necessary (multiple layers of clothing) and while it isn't as effective as aramid fibers or ceramic, it's better than nothing. |
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Before the fire I had a IIIa vest I got cheap from a retiring SWAT officer who had it for less than a year. I would use it when I was going out to patrol the property during hunting season as when I first bought the property 20 years ago I had to run off poachers every year. I would also put it on if something went bump in the night. Now I have an older level II I got when my GF got hers replaced at the highway patrol as part of the regular rotation of equipment. As far as TEOTWAWKI gear goes, it is not high on my list of things to spend money on first. But if all of the rest of your preps are solid and you have money to spend it isn't a bad thing to have. I would NOT forgo consumables (food, water, fuel) to obtain it. Body armor can be improvised if necessary (multiple layers of clothing) and while it isn't as effective as aramid fibers or ceramic, it's better than nothing. I doubt that being swaddled up like the Michelin man is going to help very much versus bullets. Baseball bat, maybe.
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From my perspective, body armor has it's place in your preps. Get a level II vest for daily wear, or when going out at night. I have two molle vest plate carriers. One loaded with pouches and one empty for concealment. I can just move the plates to the vest I want in 30 seconds. Body armor is not a magic talisman. The moment you see someone take hits to the torso and not stop, then it is time for shots to the head and legs. A broken hip or major artery damage in the thigh is pretty much the end unless you have immediate medical assistance. Even with good plate armor the need to keep effective cover between you and the threat is essential. |
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From my perspective, body armor has it's place in your preps. Get a level II vest for daily wear, or when going out at night. I have two molle vest plate carriers. One loaded with pouches and one empty for concealment. I can just move the plates to the vest I want in 30 seconds. Body armor is not a magic talisman. The moment you see someone take hits to the torso and not stop, then it is time for shots to the head and legs. A broken hip or major artery damage in the thigh is pretty much the end unless you have immediate medical assistance. Even with good plate armor the need to keep effective cover between you and the threat is essential. What tiberius said. Get a level 2 vest and some kind of concealable rig for low vis SHTF. Then get a plate carrier, attach pouches to it and keep both of them ready to go complete with ammo, med gear etc. Don't try to cut up a KPot, if your really cant afford a MITCH then buy a surplus KPOT one size to small and change out the helmet straps, that's how the first MITCH helmets came about. Also remember that all US made armor (soft and hard) has tagnents embedded in the materiel so that stolen armor can be tracked, so don't buy stolen stuff. Additionally check this guy out, not scientific but a lot of good info. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot31.htm Whatever you end up getting, put all the gear on and try it out (not at a public range) to make sure it all works for you. |
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Before the fire I had a IIIa vest I got cheap from a retiring SWAT officer who had it for less than a year. I would use it when I was going out to patrol the property during hunting season as when I first bought the property 20 years ago I had to run off poachers every year. I would also put it on if something went bump in the night. Now I have an older level II I got when my GF got hers replaced at the highway patrol as part of the regular rotation of equipment. As far as TEOTWAWKI gear goes, it is not high on my list of things to spend money on first. But if all of the rest of your preps are solid and you have money to spend it isn't a bad thing to have. I would NOT forgo consumables (food, water, fuel) to obtain it. Body armor can be improvised if necessary (multiple layers of clothing) and while it isn't as effective as aramid fibers or ceramic, it's better than nothing. I doubt that being swaddled up like the Michelin man is going to help very much versus bullets. Baseball bat, maybe.
The point is that the more energy you can take away from a bullet before it penetrates flesh, the more survivable it is and the more you can fight. The company I own manufactures outdoors gear out of different fabrics, one of which is 1050 denier ballistics nylon, which was one of the original materials for lighter weight body armor before aramid fibers came along. Every now and then I get a customer who, thinking that because it is ballistics nylon means it is bullet proof, will shoot a pack. I got enough of these folks calling and telling me this (and sometimes it wouldgo through, sometimes not) that I decided some playing was in order and since I shoot almost daily anyway, what the heck. Some results. One layer of 1050 denier ballistics nylon hanging free would stop a .22lr. Four layers hanging free would stop .45 acp ball. This was because the fabric could move which helped dissipate energy. Tried again with the materials against a stack of phone books. The one layer caused the round to penetrate about a third less for the .22lr and the .45acp. The four layers caused the .22lr to penetrate about a quarter inch and the .45acp about an inch. Hardly scientific or conclusive, but it was fun and it reinforced that layers of fabric do give some protection. |
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Before the fire I had a IIIa vest I got cheap from a retiring SWAT officer who had it for less than a year. I would use it when I was going out to patrol the property during hunting season as when I first bought the property 20 years ago I had to run off poachers every year. I would also put it on if something went bump in the night. Now I have an older level II I got when my GF got hers replaced at the highway patrol as part of the regular rotation of equipment. As far as TEOTWAWKI gear goes, it is not high on my list of things to spend money on first. But if all of the rest of your preps are solid and you have money to spend it isn't a bad thing to have. I would NOT forgo consumables (food, water, fuel) to obtain it. Body armor can be improvised if necessary (multiple layers of clothing) and while it isn't as effective as aramid fibers or ceramic, it's better than nothing. I doubt that being swaddled up like the Michelin man is going to help very much versus bullets. Baseball bat, maybe.
The point is that the more energy you can take away from a bullet before it penetrates flesh, the more survivable it is and the more you can fight. The company I own manufactures outdoors gear out of different fabrics, one of which is 1050 denier ballistics nylon, which was one of the original materials for lighter weight body armor before aramid fibers came along. Every now and then I get a customer who, thinking that because it is ballistics nylon means it is bullet proof, will shoot a pack. I got enough of these folks calling and telling me this (and sometimes it wouldgo through, sometimes not) that I decided some playing was in order and since I shoot almost daily anyway, what the heck. Some results. One layer of 1050 denier ballistics nylon hanging free would stop a .22lr. Four layers hanging free would stop .45 acp ball. This was because the fabric could move which helped dissipate energy. Tried again with the materials against a stack of phone books. The one layer caused the round to penetrate about a third less for the .22lr and the .45acp. The four layers caused the .22lr to penetrate about a quarter inch and the .45acp about an inch. Hardly scientific or conclusive, but it was fun and it reinforced that layers of fabric do give some protection. Have you tried Hornady Critical Defense? I bet is goes through fine.
http://www.hornady.com/store/critical_defense/ |
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Each level will protect against different kind of bullets. Type I will protect against 2.6 g (40 gr) .22 Long Rifle Lead Round Nose (LR LRN) bullets at a velocity of 329 m/s (1080 ft/s ± 30 ft/s) and 6.2 g (95 gr) .380 ACP Full Metal Jacketed Round Nose (FMJ RN) bullets at a velocity of 322 m/s (1055 ft/s ± 30 ft/s).
Type IIA will protect against 9mm FMJ 124 grain at 1090 Feet Per Second(FPS) and .40 S&W FMJ 180 grain at 1025 FPS. It also provides protection against the threats mentioned in [Type I]. Type II is a new armor which protects against 8 g (124 gr) 9 mm FMJ RN bullets at a velocity of 398 m/s ± 9.1 m/s (1305 ft/s ± 30 ft/s) and 10.2 g (158 gr) .357 Magnum Jacketed Soft Point bullets at a velocity of 436 m/s ± 9.1 m/s (1430 ft/s ± 30 ft/s). Type IIIA will protect against 9mm FMJ 124 grain at 1400 FPS and .44 Magnum 240 grain at 1400 FPS. It also provides protection against most handgun threats, as well as the threats mentioned in [Types I, IIA, and II]. Type III will protect against 7.62mm FMJ 150 grain at 2750 FPS. Type IV provides at least single hit protection against the threats mentioned in [Types I, IIA, II, IIIA, and III]. Link Remember if you get rifle plates some say Level IV with a III-A Vest Supporting. |
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Before the fire I had a IIIa vest I got cheap from a retiring SWAT officer who had it for less than a year. I would use it when I was going out to patrol the property during hunting season as when I first bought the property 20 years ago I had to run off poachers every year. I would also put it on if something went bump in the night. Now I have an older level II I got when my GF got hers replaced at the highway patrol as part of the regular rotation of equipment. As far as TEOTWAWKI gear goes, it is not high on my list of things to spend money on first. But if all of the rest of your preps are solid and you have money to spend it isn't a bad thing to have. I would NOT forgo consumables (food, water, fuel) to obtain it. Body armor can be improvised if necessary (multiple layers of clothing) and while it isn't as effective as aramid fibers or ceramic, it's better than nothing. I doubt that being swaddled up like the Michelin man is going to help very much versus bullets. Baseball bat, maybe.
The point is that the more energy you can take away from a bullet before it penetrates flesh, the more survivable it is and the more you can fight. The company I own manufactures outdoors gear out of different fabrics, one of which is 1050 denier ballistics nylon, which was one of the original materials for lighter weight body armor before aramid fibers came along. Every now and then I get a customer who, thinking that because it is ballistics nylon means it is bullet proof, will shoot a pack. I got enough of these folks calling and telling me this (and sometimes it wouldgo through, sometimes not) that I decided some playing was in order and since I shoot almost daily anyway, what the heck. Some results. One layer of 1050 denier ballistics nylon hanging free would stop a .22lr. Four layers hanging free would stop .45 acp ball. This was because the fabric could move which helped dissipate energy. Tried again with the materials against a stack of phone books. The one layer caused the round to penetrate about a third less for the .22lr and the .45acp. The four layers caused the .22lr to penetrate about a quarter inch and the .45acp about an inch. Hardly scientific or conclusive, but it was fun and it reinforced that layers of fabric do give some protection. If you get a chance, can you try it against a backing of modeling clay (which is what the NIJ uses)? Be interesting to see how it performs there. Of course some would dispute this method and say that only calibrated gelatin is indicative of how it'll perform - they may be right - but it's hard for the typical person to set up such testing. I see where you talk about "clothing" being protection vs bullets and then go on about testing ballistics nylon. Is there any commonly available clothing made from this ballistic nylon (backpack maybe)? |
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If you get a chance, can you try it against a backing of modeling clay (which is what the NIJ uses)? Be interesting to see how it performs there. Of course some would dispute this method and say that only calibrated gelatin is indicative of how it'll perform - they may be right - but it's hard for the typical person to set up such testing. I see where you talk about "clothing" being protection vs bullets and then go on about testing ballistics nylon. Is there any commonly available clothing made from this ballistic nylon (backpack maybe)? Backpacks and luggage. Much outdoors heavy gear is made of 1000 denier Cordura nylon which is slightly less strong in that configuration as is ballistics nylon. With fabrics the key is multiple layers. The primary advantage to aramid fibers being stronger is that the material can be lighter. Maybe someday soon I'll cut up some old t-shirts and see what the 50/50 cotton poly blend does in multiple layer configuration. BTW, my first experience with body armor protection was a cop who was shot in the chest with a .357. The round didn't penetrate his level II vest (this was ~1989) but it did break a rib where it hit and he had a right pneumothorax and partial collapse of that lung by the time we got to him. The perp was dead though. |
| Glad you posted this. In one of his posts, FerFal mentioned that not getting concealable body armor was one of his big regrets. Big increase in violent crime in Argentina after the collapse, but no zombies or hungry tacticool units storming the BOL. Just violent, sudden one-on-one type assaults that an everday concealable vest would be perfect for. |
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If you get a chance, can you try it against a backing of modeling clay (which is what the NIJ uses)? Be interesting to see how it performs there. Of course some would dispute this method and say that only calibrated gelatin is indicative of how it'll perform - they may be right - but it's hard for the typical person to set up such testing. I see where you talk about "clothing" being protection vs bullets and then go on about testing ballistics nylon. Is there any commonly available clothing made from this ballistic nylon (backpack maybe)? Backpacks and luggage. Much outdoors heavy gear is made of 1000 denier Cordura nylon which is slightly less strong in that configuration as is ballistics nylon. With fabrics the key is multiple layers. The primary advantage to aramid fibers being stronger is that the material can be lighter. Maybe someday soon I'll cut up some old t-shirts and see what the 50/50 cotton poly blend does in multiple layer configuration. BTW, my first experience with body armor protection was a cop who was shot in the chest with a .357. The round didn't penetrate his level II vest (this was ~1989) but it did break a rib where it hit and he had a right pneumothorax and partial collapse of that lung by the time we got to him. The perp was dead though. I would not have thought of cutting up luggage to make body armor.  Good to know if I am without armor and am desperate...
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I have several level II sets that were given to me by a retired Cop...they were "expired" but for free I didn't care. I actually took two and placed them over the backs of my vehicle seat and then covered them with my Molle seat covers. My thought was to primarily provide a bit of cover for my kid in the back seat.....he's been told to drop down and crouch behind the passenger seat. I also have four panels but no carrier....I've many times thought about taking my door covers off and inserting them in their loose or with zip ties or something........I save the better ones and actually have enough vests to outfit my wife and him if necessary......
I my take is if you can find them cheap why not have them. |
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i dont see the problem in having a molle/plate carrier vest....if people have problems with thinking this might draw attention, dont be out in the open like a dumbass
when shtf, im not going to be using major routes, or be moving out in the open during the day... i would feel much better having my plate carrier, with its rifle plates, level II kevlar, AR mags, med supplies, quick camp supplies, MRE's, and water, along with my pack with everything else in it...id feel alot more comfortable that way, and for those who think that might be a little heavy, start working out...or intergrate the same weight into your workout...my shtf outfit is about 60 pounds added to me, and while that is a large amount of weight, ive gotten used to it... where you live and where your going factors in..and if it really does hit the fan, where i live i want rifle plates, dont care if thats another 20 pounds |
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Before the fire I had a IIIa vest I got cheap from a retiring SWAT officer who had it for less than a year. I would use it when I was going out to patrol the property during hunting season as when I first bought the property 20 years ago I had to run off poachers every year. I would also put it on if something went bump in the night. Now I have an older level II I got when my GF got hers replaced at the highway patrol as part of the regular rotation of equipment. As far as TEOTWAWKI gear goes, it is not high on my list of things to spend money on first. But if all of the rest of your preps are solid and you have money to spend it isn't a bad thing to have. I would NOT forgo consumables (food, water, fuel) to obtain it. Body armor can be improvised if necessary (multiple layers of clothing) and while it isn't as effective as aramid fibers or ceramic, it's better than nothing. I doubt that being swaddled up like the Michelin man is going to help very much versus bullets. Baseball bat, maybe.
It can't hurt. Not very scientific, but the impetus for the development of the M-14 was the "human wave" attacks by the Chinese during the Korean war. The M-1 Garand did not fire fast enough, and the M-1/M-2 Carbines had penetration issues. The Army found that the quilted and padded winter garments of the Chinese would stop the Carbine rounds. Those garments were primarily cotton and wool, and not the stronger synthetics available today. Key factors would be caliber, velocity, and type of projectile. Given that you will have no control over any of these (in terms of your opponent's weapon), I will have to come down on the side of body armor as being the way to go over layers of clothing. On the other hand, layers of clothes are great for keeping you warm. Just say'n. |
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Before the fire I had a IIIa vest I got cheap from a retiring SWAT officer who had it for less than a year. I would use it when I was going out to patrol the property during hunting season as when I first bought the property 20 years ago I had to run off poachers every year. I would also put it on if something went bump in the night. Now I have an older level II I got when my GF got hers replaced at the highway patrol as part of the regular rotation of equipment. As far as TEOTWAWKI gear goes, it is not high on my list of things to spend money on first. But if all of the rest of your preps are solid and you have money to spend it isn't a bad thing to have. I would NOT forgo consumables (food, water, fuel) to obtain it. Body armor can be improvised if necessary (multiple layers of clothing) and while it isn't as effective as aramid fibers or ceramic, it's better than nothing. I doubt that being swaddled up like the Michelin man is going to help very much versus bullets. Baseball bat, maybe.
It can't hurt. Not very scientific, but the impetus for the development of the M-14 was the "human wave" attacks by the Chinese during the Korean war. The M-1 Garand did not fire fast enough, and the M-1/M-2 Carbines had penetration issues. The Army found that the quilted and padded winter garments of the Chinese would stop the Carbine rounds. Those garments were primarily cotton and wool, and not the stronger synthetics available today. Key factors would be caliber, velocity, and type of projectile. Given that you will have no control over any of these (in terms of your opponent's weapon), I will have to come down on the side of body armor as being the way to go over layers of clothing. On the other hand, layers of clothes are great for keeping you warm. Just say'n. Someone has not been reading The Box O' Truth #36 |
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http://www.bulletproofvests-bodyarmor.com/Body-Armor-and-Bullet-Proof-Vests/All-Bullet-Proof-Vests
cool sight that lists from ebay. I have bought three vests of ebay and have been very happy on what I have gotten and the price I have paid. Some type of vest is a must. Stopping pistol and shot gun rounds is a very good start. |
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I have a buddy that worked in a plant where they made this synthetic material that was being sold in 4 by 8 foot sheets to put in government buildings in Iraq and such. It was 1/2 inch think and we took some scrapes out and shot at it. It stopped .45 and 9mm rounds. I was surprised as I think it was designed for shrapnel from bombs.
This got me thinking and we doubled it up and it was able to stop .223 and 7.62x39 rounds. Over the next couple months he saved up some scraps and we were able to make sets of rifle plates for 8 plate carrier vest. I added an older level 3 soft vest someone gave me to the carrier and feel pretty protected. The only cost was 70.00 for the Molle gear vest. |
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Once again I'll mention Hornady Critical defense ammo before you think just ballistic nylon will do much. Granted not everyone will be carrying this kind of ammo, but you do need real kevlar or plate to be safe (safer). http://www.hornady.com/store/critical_defense/  |
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What vest you might want/need may be a situational issue.
If in an urban area, inner city setting wehre you are most likely going to face a handgun, and needing it for EDC streetwear, the Level II concealable makes sense. If you are on the Mexican border at El Paso thinking the drug lords may be coming across, you might be facing bigger firepower, then you are not as worried about fashion as you are shock absorption. Not advocating cowardice in any way, but avoidance should also be part of the plan. |
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Once again I'll mention Hornady Critical defense ammo before you think just ballistic nylon will do much. Granted not everyone will be carrying this kind of ammo, but you do need real kevlar or plate to be safe (safer). I don't know if you are missing the point or what, but neither I, nor anyone I've seen posting is seriously advocating alternatives to replacing body armor, or that multiple layers of clothing is better than kevlar, nor that there aren't pistol rounds that can penetrate, even aramid fiber body armor. Far from it. The point I made in my original post is that the more energy you can take away from the round before it hits flesh, the better off you are. IF you don't have body armor and IF you find yourself facing a potential firefight, particularly if you won't be needing to move around quickly, then multiple layers of heavy clothing will give you MORE protection than just a shirt would. Part of the reason we have better pistol bullets and more powerful rounds was because many of the early types weren't having much effect once they'd penetrated a leather jacket and a couple layers of clothes. If I'm facing a bad guy with a 10mm (my carry weapon) with hi performance rounds then I'm screwed. But if I'm facing a bad guy with a .22lr (a good possibility) or something similar then I may get some protection. If I'm facing a bad guy with a high powered rifle then I'm screwed even with my level II vest. That was the point. Not that you can replace kevlar body armor by wearing 20 t-shirts. Not that your winter coat will make bullets bounce off you, not that a level II vest is money wasted when trailer park duct tape alternatives existed. As for me, as I stated in my original post, I own a level II vest. However, for the beginning prepper, I wouldn't recommend you buy one before making sure you food, water, fuel, and shelter preps are solid. As has been pointed out numerous times over the years here, too many people prep for end of the world zombie defense and neglect having the basics which take care of more likely scenarios. |
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Once again I'll mention Hornady Critical defense ammo before you think just ballistic nylon will do much.
I can't speak to the Hornady ammo mentioned, but I wil say this, having seen it firsthand: No nylon, or Michelin-Man padding, or multiple layers of 50/50 cotton, etc will do a damn thing against 90% of bullets and 90% of the situations out there. And yes, I'm talking even handguns. There are tons of anecdotal stories of bullets being deflected or stopped by odd things, but they are just that- anecdotal. Statiscally, the guys wearing anything not rated to stop bullets will not have their Mad Max armor stop bullets when they need it to. Period. The badguys we fight here and in Afghanistan (and I've been to both) generally don't wear armor. If you're thinking about going with anything other than armor with the intent of it stopping or slowing or reducing damage from bullets, you should talk first hand with some our our guys who have seen such things and how well it worked for the guys on the receiving end. |
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The point I made in my original post is that the more energy you can take away from the round before it hits flesh, the better off you are.
Not necessarily, and I'll make two comments about that. Energy is not equal to lethality. Taking away energy does not necessarily reduce the lethality, and sometimes causes INCREASED damage due to keyholing, failing to exit, etc. A hell of a lot of lethality / injury is caused by what the bullet shoves into the wound. If we're talking for SHTF purposes, then the speed and type of medical care you can get afterwards might be an issue. A t-shirt will have less debris and general crap pulled into the wound than several layers of homemade armor. That armor might pull a tiny bit of energy off the bullet, at the expense of more slag, melted nylon, dirty pieces of fabric, etc spewed inside the wound. |
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The badguys we fight here and in Afghanistan (and I've been to both) generally don't wear armor. If you're thinking about going with anything other than armor with the intent of it stopping or slowing or reducing damage from bullets, you should talk first hand with some our our guys who have seen such things and how well it worked for the guys on the receiving end. I yield to your superior experience. Mine comes only from a couple dozen gunshot victims I worked when I was on the streets and is hardly a decent sample size and I was more interested in stabilizing them and getting them to the ER rather than poking around the trauma site. |
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What are the top (most reputable) manufacturers of body armor that we should be looking at? Or is it all pretty much the same stuff since there is an offical rating sytem in place? Just about any that meet NIJ Standard should be fine. Some cost more then others because of what there made out of you can buy a light III-A vest that weights as much as a II-A if your willing to spend the money! Also if your in a really hot area vests suck they make you feel 20 degs warmer the it is out so if your i a hot area the lighter ones would be better. They also make some that wick away sweat again if your willing to pay. Just make sure you get a good fitting vest last department I was at they gave me a Big boy vest XXL-short and I wear a large it was very uncomfortable to wear bunched up on my sides when I sat down and made me have a bigger black triangle to shoot at. If you get it to small you will not be protect yourself as much. I like the vests that have the side protection because just more area that is covered. |
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The badguys we fight here and in Afghanistan (and I've been to both) generally don't wear armor. If you're thinking about going with anything other than armor with the intent of it stopping or slowing or reducing damage from bullets, you should talk first hand with some our our guys who have seen such things and how well it worked for the guys on the receiving end. I yield to your superior experience. Mine comes only from a couple dozen gunshot victims I worked when I was on the streets and is hardly a decent sample size and I was more interested in stabilizing them and getting them to the ER rather than poking around the trauma site. I'm no medic, just a CLS, and am only talking from the "he's down and out of the fight" aspect, not truly patching up or working on guys other than first-line care. I will caveat my experience with one thing though- everything we use here is FMJ. And there is LOTS of data that many hollowpoints are turned into FMJs by clothing and such. And I would suspect that most of us agree that FMJs are less incapacitating than FMJ- hence there is one positive aspect to the heavy clothing plan. |
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Quoted: No I understand the point completely. I have heard examples of people wearing canvas and heavy winter jackets that some bullets filed to penetrate.Quoted: Once again I'll mention Hornady Critical defense ammo before you think just ballistic nylon will do much. Granted not everyone will be carrying this kind of ammo, but you do need real kevlar or plate to be safe (safer). I don't know if you are missing the point or what, but neither I, nor anyone I've seen posting is seriously advocating alternatives to replacing body armor, or that multiple layers of clothing is better than kevlar, nor that there aren't pistol rounds that can penetrate, even aramid fiber body armor. Far from it. The point I made in my original post is that the more energy you can take away from the round before it hits flesh, the better off you are. IF you don't have body armor and IF you find yourself facing a potential firefight, particularly if you won't be needing to move around quickly, then multiple layers of heavy clothing will give you MORE protection than just a shirt would. Part of the reason we have better pistol bullets and more powerful rounds was because many of the early types weren't having much effect once they'd penetrated a leather jacket and a couple layers of clothes. If I'm facing a bad guy with a 10mm (my carry weapon) with hi performance rounds then I'm screwed. But if I'm facing a bad guy with a .22lr (a good possibility) or something similar then I may get some protection. If I'm facing a bad guy with a high powered rifle then I'm screwed even with my level II vest. That was the point. Not that you can replace kevlar body armor by wearing 20 t-shirts. Not that your winter coat will make bullets bounce off you, not that a level II vest is money wasted when trailer park duct tape alternatives existed. As for me, as I stated in my original post, I own a level II vest. However, for the beginning prepper, I wouldn't recommend you buy one before making sure you food, water, fuel, and shelter preps are solid. As has been pointed out numerous times over the years here, too many people prep for end of the world zombie defense and neglect having the basics which take care of more likely scenarios. It can certainly happen, which is why Hornady developed their Critical Defense ammo, to mitigate that kind of interruption to the bullets potential. It is a big risk to hope that anything will limit the energy. A risk I would not personally try or think of. Yes the concept is correct, but my opinion is distance and solid material like concrete are better. I hear what you are saying, but before I would even think about trying to move my backpack around as a buffer, I would be evading the other way.
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It can certainly happen, which is why Hornady developed their Critical Defense ammo, to mitigate that kind of interruption to the bullets potential.[/div][div] [/div][div]It is a big risk to hope that anything will limit the energy. A risk I would not personally try or think of. Yes the concept is correct, but my opinion is distance and solid material like concrete are better. I hear what you are saying, but before I would even think about trying to move my backpack around as a buffer, I would be evading the other way. Fair enough. |
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I would say Safariland, PACA, ABA are a few of the better ones on the market for soft armor.
I have a safariland IIIa gold vest with a ceramic trauma plate, I use it veryday while on patrol. Most are very uncomfortable but thats the trade off for safety I guess. If you live in a place where it gets hot you will never want to wear the vest anyway it is like a sweat box for your chest 
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What are the top (most reputable) manufacturers of body armor that we should be looking at? Or is it all pretty much the same stuff since there is an offical rating sytem in place? Preferrably a vest that conforms to the latest NIJ .06 standard. See Here There definitely are differences between manufacturers. I would suggest a 3-A vest instead of a level 2 vest. There is a minimal weight difference, and they have pretty much become police standard issue nowadays (someone correct me if I'm mistaken). If you have the level 3-A vest, you can easily enough put a in-conjunction rifle plate in front of it if needed. One thing that is oftentimes overlooked is that there is recent testing showing that many of the laminate vests do not do well versus contact shots - ie, gun shoved into your gut and fired. The all woven Kevlar or Twaron vests seem to hold up to this kind of abuse, though they are heavier. See Here: Another factor is whether or not you are LEO/mil. Many of the body armor manufacturers have gotten this bug up their ass about selling to mere civilians. There are a few dealers that will sell to you still. PPI is one, as is Grey Group Training. Bulletproofme.com is one that I am unsure about as to the quality of their product, having not seen it, nor what NIJ certification level they are adhering to... |