Posted: 10/23/2009 9:29:37 AM EDT
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Hiya guys......
After many years of looking I may have finally found a suitable piece of property. I'm seriously considering a purchase. It 94 acres of rolling land, all timbered. It was logged a few years ago, but whomever did it did so 'gently' and selectively. Right now there is an abundance of hardwoods (maple, cherry, ash, birch) in the 14=16" range, a well thinned. These will be putting on more wood in a hurry. The light at the forest floor makes for abundant undergrowth, predominantly raspberries. Deer sign is in abundance. In addition, its got something for Mrs. There is a hilltop were, with ther removal of maybe 12 trees, the views will span a good 30+ miles... There are older log roads/trails on the property. Some are in really good shape, others a tad rough. I would like some piece of equipment for two uses: 1) to collect firewood and 2) to break and maintain trails. I have zero experience with tractors. None. Nada. Zip. Never even drove one. I am thinking my choices are: 1) ATV. These are comparatively cheap. They will adequately break trails, and with a drag I can easily flatten the raspberries to create adequate walking trails/hunting access. The advantages are low cost to buy and maintain, narrow (easy to make trails). Disadvantages are the implements look like toys, and while trail useage would be good, its firewood collecting potential is limited. I can see a half dozen blocks in a trailer type set up. Skidding 12-16 foot logs sounds like a recipe for busted atvs.... 2) Small tractor. Advantage is significantly greater horsepower and utility. Real implements. A simple bucket and brushhog and I'm in business. A bucket full of blocks and a log or two on the chains seesm feasible. Disadvantage is cost. And i don't know what I'm looking for. I remember an earlier post indicating 28+ HP for 5 foot tools. Beyond that I'm clueless. Help. Fro. |
| I think you'll have to give us your budget. Atv's might be best for breaking trails but tractors are just more designed for work. A well used jd 4020 with a loader might be had for around 12k and newer utilitie tractors probably start 15-25k. A atv can be bought used for 3-4k and new for 5-6 thousand. |
| I hate to tell you but you need BOTH. I wouldn't get anything less than a 40hp 4wd. When I was clearing my property to build I borrowed a couple of tractors from friends to try, a JD 4610 and a MF453? The JD would be the minimum for that much property, I think the MF was 53hp and worked well. I found a deal on a JD4310(33hp I think) and it works fine for mowing and maintaining roads,etc but would be too small for the initial job so forget about the 28hp. Check out the sidexsides instead of an atv(ranger, mule, etc.) |
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I work my place, including logging for my mill, with a JD 4500 with loader and backhoe.
I'm almost entirely hills and like your place, I bought it 21 years ago after it had been logged. Last year I sold some timber for a timber stand improvement since it was more than I cared to cut on the mill. 20/20 hindsight, I would have gotten a tractor as soon as I could have after I bought the place, but it is WELL worth the money to get 4wd and modern ROPS. An old 9n or similar may be ok for flat ground, but is a recipe for killing yourself. Still don't have a 4 wheeler. One would be nice, but not a requirement. I have 150 acres. |
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Your getting equipment buying fever, see alot of it when looking for land..Ever heard the term "all i need is a reason" goes hand in hand when buying land, all we need is a reason to buy equipment, buying land is a good reason, to spend more, LOL!!!
Not knocking ya,been there also, be careful though seen alot of people go broke real fast in that cycle, so be careful and spend slowly.I love toys/tools as much as the next guy but when you got a big monthly mortgage sometimes as much as a home and have to spend thousands more to keep it maintained spend carefully. Go to www.tractorbynet.com its the ARfcom of owning land and tractors.. A larger Cab type tractor is cheaper on the used market because not alot of people can use a Cab tractor unless you have big land 94 acres is pretty big land when compared to 10 acres, but depends if your going use all 94 acres. ATV is a vehicle to get around on that they happen to sell implements for..A atv will not pull a tree stump for a trai,l its may pull non ground engaging equipment like a rake, but not move any real dirt..Not enough weight to do much work. Go to a jobsite like residential development and you wont see a atv doing any work, only heavy equipment. A tractor is a tool/ work machine. Remember you need a place to store a tractor so expect build a building out there, if you want to hual it every weekedn you will need a reliable tow vehicle and trailer. Alot more costs than just the tractor itself..Not trying to squash your dream, but really help you succeed by spedning money once instead of twice. |
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Didn't you read the Hillbilly, redneck, montain man thread? And your still moving to Kentucky?
Just kidding. 
I would just get a small tractor they have more uses as you stated but are going to cost a little more, check the local used market once your there. Atvs are for lighter work, sure you can put a ton of parts on them, trailers, winches, plows, the whole nine. If you want something thats in between I'd check out some side by sides. I really like the Yamaha Rhino. They are like a small truck in a sense. And fun to if you want something to cruise around in, hunt, venture new trails. http://www.yamaha-motor.com/outdoor/products/modelhome/592/0/home.aspx But really don't have much more use than a small utility vehicle. My final opinion get a tractor/backhoe, I dont think youll regret it. My buddy has one and Its perfect a smaller john deere. Good Luck. |
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goodoldboy has it right.
You can often get a considerably bigger tractor for less than a smaller one. Less demand among the farmette set. Some deals out there now. I STILL don't have a ATV! (it's a toy for most, no matter how hard they try to convince themselves otherwise) |
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If I were looking at your situation, I would want a tractor. It would be 40 to 45 horse, 4 wheel drive, with a good sized bucket. You are looking at hauling firewood. That is not as heavy as some material, so don't get the smallest bucket. Buckets fill up fast with firewood. You will soon desire a 5 to 6 foot brush hog to clear your trails, so a working PTO is also needed.
The transmission you choose is going to determine a lot of your expense. Hydrostatic is probably best for what you are looking for, and far easier for non experienced people to drive than the old gear drive. I don't know if you have children that will be using the equipment, but mine (even my 5 year old) can drive our 25 horse tractor with the hydrostatic safely (on a flat area without equipment hooked up), but not my older gear drive tractors. I hydrostatic transmission will take several of your horse power, just to move the weight of the tractor & power the transmission, just so you take this into consideration when you decide how much horsepower you need at the PTO (not that much for a brush hog). I tend to like Kubota equipment, even though only one of our three tractors is made by them. I would look at Craig's list in your area, and than check on Tractorhouse.com for a fair value. If you plan on moving / pulling / dragging things when you are clearing your land, you will need a heavy enough tractor to pull / move the items. This is going to rule out the ATV for this purpose alone. For a good quality diesel tractor with 1000 hours or so, a rough guess on a fair price may be $15,000 or so. It should be diesel, with a bucket, and working PTO, 4 wheel drive. Figure $500 or so for a used brush hog. Prices are going to vary, even looking at tractor house, the same model with about the same hours there can be several thousand dollars difference between dealers on used tractors. If you are looking to buy new, you can probably add 70% to 80% to the figure above, + sales tax if they get you for it on tractors in NY. |
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I wish I had that much land but I guess not the taxes that go along with it... Are you getting a forest land exemption?
I would go for the tractor, the replies so far sound like bigger is better but all I can add is to say DON'T get the atv to do the work. They are fun and very handy to have but for an entirely different reason - convenience, that many acres and you may want or need to get around quicker than walking or slowly driving the tractor back to the homestead. I for one could use alot more exercise and the walking I get at our BOL is good for me but there is something about having the option to zip around or pull a trailer for a small amount of firewood, tools or horse apples from the neighbors land! So in the vein of "Just give me a reason" - buy both! Prepper |
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Quoted:
... I would like some piece of equipment for two uses: 1) to collect firewood and 2) to break and maintain trails. I grew up on a Ranch my entire life and have experience both with what you plan on doing and what you plan to do it with. If these are truly the only reasons you want some equipment then the answer is an ATV. You can get a very nice and durable trailer to haul firewood as well as put your tools in for maintaining trails. With that said, you can also do the same thing with a tractor and much more for all the reasons other people have posted. On the same note, you'll also do much more with your ATV than initially planned. The primary thing I'm thinking about here, is all the running around you'll do on the land. You don't want to be doing that with a tractor. I also believe that once you travel down this path, you'll learn more about what you can and want to do and what it will take to do it with. |
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w/ 94 acres of wooded land, you'll want a tractor guaranteed. if the land is hilly, get a 4wd. you'll want 45 hp minimum which will let you run 6' or 7' implements. i would also suggest getting a tractor w/ a FEL (front end loader). you'll eventually want a brush hog (heavy duty mower that'll cut down 2" saplings) and a box blade (used for cutting trails and leveling trails).
the atv and implements made for it are simply too light duty to last long. my first experience w/ property was 5 acres. i considered the atv route, but opted for an old 2wd 35 hp tractor w/ FEL and brush hog. i paid about $3k for it and quickly realized how much of a necessity a tractor is on property. we moved and more than tripled our acreage and length of our driveway. the old tractor died and i upgraded to a 35 hp 4wd mahindra w/ FEL and added a box blade. iirc, i paid less than $13k for my tractor and it had about 200 hours on it. i've skidded entire 45' oak trees out of the woods. w/ an atv i would've had to have cut the tree up and made 3 or 4 trips w/ the atv. if your new driveway is gravel, then the atv will simply not have enough weight to get rid of pot holes when they show up. also mowing down the underbrush is a major undertaking w/ an atv and the mower and atv will take a beating. as somebody mentioned go do some reading and asking at forums at http://www.tractorbynet.com. every brand and size of tractor is represented over there - including the chinese tractors and you'll find all kinds of info about not only tractors, but projects and rural living in general. |
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I second the mini truck over the quad. I have both the mini truck and 2 tractors. They both have different uses, buy more tractor than you think you will need. There are some really good deals out there right now in the used marked as well as the new market. Kubota has %0 financing but are very expensive but great tractors. I have a Jinma which is an import tractor and it has been good to us and cost 1/4 of a kubota with over 500 hours on it I have had 0 problems. Good luck feel free to IM me anytime with questions, we run a full time farm.
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Find out what dealerships are close by.... then buy a tractor based on that... Around here, John Deere parts are much easier to locate and obtain immediately... not a week's wait. Buy you a used Deere with a front loader. Don't be afraid of older tractors; they are fairly simple machines. You might also like a old backhoe. They are awesome for tree clearing and stump removal. I've run an old JD 2010 backhoe for many a stump/tree removal. Now you cant run a mower with one of those, but the rear bucket sure makes it easier to pull and dig out stumps.. |
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Quoted: I would like some piece of equipment for two uses: 1) to collect firewood and 2) to break and maintain trails. 94 acres? You'll find plenty of uses other than those for a small tractor with a front-end loader. Moving dirt, mulch, etc. Tilling the garden, presuming you get a tiller. Pulling fence posts.Hauling feed to animals. Pulling your lawn mower out when you get it stuck. Moving snow. etc., etc. With that much acreage and being a 'one man band', you really do need a tractor, IMO. A 4-wheeler ain't gonna do it. The older you get, the harder it is to do a lot of these homesteading tasks. When they're are a lot of things on the work list, it really, really helps to have a tractor. Good luck with your property.....sounds cool.  |
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Have a similar circumstance.
What has worked very well is a used Polaris 6x6 we bought last winter, replaced a lot of parts and we have found a lot of uses for it. We have tracks front and rear that will soon be put back on it once snowfall warrents. As far as doing any significant work with an ATV on a large piece of property, I'm skeptical. Very handy for quick transportation and hauling small stuff around. Indispensible actually. We also elected to buy a mini-excavator later this year for the building we have built. We picked Kubota and we got a great deal on a new one, abt 9000 to 10000# machine with AC and 6 in one dozer blade. Best thing since sliced bread. If you are putting in roads, foundations, trails, ponds, etc, it will be much more useful than a tractor because it's tracked, can push or dig dirt and is arguably more stable than a backhoe. As the economy falters you can find great deals for ones that are larger than the average person wants for their 'back 20'. We've got a Case 580 Super K with the 4 in one blade backhoe on the other side of the US and it's a great machine but I think the mini-ex is a lot better for cutting in roads. Depends to a degree on slope. We have had a small JD tractor at another location for many yrs with a loader and backhoe. The loader would be useful here but the backhoe is way to weak to do anything serious. A used large backhoe would be my choice after a mini-excavator. You can drive them around faster and the loader is very useful. Less stable on hilly terrain tho. I started a thread here on mini excavators about this time last year and received a lot of advice. I waited till this year to buy because I didn't have enough application for one and also I knew prices would likely fall through the floor. It's amazing what you can pick up at good prices now. Having the excavator creates a need for some sort of loader, and I've been shopping/negotiating for a nice Bobcat type skid-steer, but the small ones used are still desirable to the smaller property owners who are doing exactly what we are. If you need pricing info, I might be able to give you some ideas. I was able to roughly cut in ~1/10 mile of road in a couple of days with the mini-ex but didn't have quite as big of trees as it sounds like you do. Once you get your site work taken care of, then it's time for a tractor. |
| Get an old school tractor. KISS, less things to go wrong. I've got a JD with MFWD, bucket, box blade and a 5' finish mower. No hydro or power steering, cup holders etc. One can pick an old school model up for a lot less $. Let someone else buy new....you'll need that money to put in fences, barns, your house etc. |
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If the 94 acres is all in timber, you don't need the big tractors that are being recommended by everyone, unless you plan on clearing quite a bit of it and converting it to pasture. If you leave it mostly wooded, you can get buy with 30 hp or so 4wd tractor. More horsepower will give you the ability to grade roads and trails quicker with a wider box blade. I personally wouldn't buy a huge farm tractor, just because I wouldn't want to have to clear road sized paths all over the 94 acres to get the tractor in.
Definitely check outt www.tractorbynet.com. A lot of the deer clubs around here used small, japanese grey market tractors to maintain the food plots that are spread throughout their timber acerage. I don't think ATV drag behind implements will hold up too well in timberland, and they don't have nearly the moving power of even small tractor implements. Also, I think anyone can master a gear transmission tractor. Most manual tractors are designed to be shifted into the appropriate gear while stopped, then the clutch released and movement begins. Most of them are not like cars where you shift on the fly, and in fact shifting some gear tractors on the fly is really hard / destructive on the tranny. Also, because of the torque curve of the engines, the clutch is generally fairly forgiving on letout. |
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Quoted:
I think you'll have to give us your budget. Atv's might be best for breaking trails but tractors are just more designed for work. A well used jd 4020 with a loader might be had for around 12k and newer utilitie tractors probably start 15-25k. A atv can be bought used for 3-4k and new for 5-6 thousand. +1 on the tractor. iirc the JD4020 is a 40HP tractor made in Germany; it's a hoss if you can find one. On a piece on property that size I doubt that you'll ever reqret buying a tractor. I'd stay 35+ on the PTO HP. If you plan on running a loader at any time I'd seriously consider a 4x4 tractor! The trend here is that you can get a used low hour tractor fairly reasonable; and oddly enough the larger the more reasonable for the HP bought. As far as a four wheeler while they're fun; I would op out for something like an older Toyota 4x4. Think about it; I've gotten mine in places where most 4 wheelers can go (i.e. following a friend of mine back to his duck blind (woodland/dry swamp) on a 4wheeler in my Toyota, when we get there he gets off and tells me "Damn, I've never seen a truck get this far back here! "). I haven't bought a 4wheeler because 1. Their expensive 2. they can only carry so much and only 2 people 3. they're cold in the winter 4. potentially dangerous for young and older alike (neighbor who had many years of experience was returning with his to pick up a deer his friend shot; he did something and rolled in over in a ravine. His friend found him with the ATV on top of him with a broken pelvis- he grew up in the area and knew it as his own); we'll not even mention kids The used 4x4 can be found more economically than the ATV; has a decent size bed for hauling wood, tools, feed, etc. Room for 4 or 5 in the cab. the heater should still work (and has a radio  ). If it rains or snows you have shelter if you're out and about.
Good luck on your land purchase; it sounds great! |
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this is my business (pasture maintenance) I put more hours on tractors in a year than most people do in 20 years.
94 acres is a lot of land. ATV's are great for driving around the property for doing work, no But, they are cheap and they are cheap to run. Get a Honda, put gas in it, put slime in the tires (to reduce flats) drive around. UTV's are more useful for doing things like fixing fence and such (holds the tools) but they cost a lot more and can't get in as small of spots. Tractors subcompact tractors are a joke. (below 25hp or so) compact tractors (25-50hp or so) are useful, but expensive to run per hour. These are great for tiny spaces (they turn really well) and small (under 5 acres) landowners. Expensive to run per hour. (use the ATV if you can) Utility tractors are the next step up. They go from about 50hp up to 85/90hp. A utility tractor is MUCH cheaper to run per hour (compare maintenance intervals) and is a HELL of a lot stronger. (compare a 55hp compact with a 55hp utility, compare the rear end, which is where all the work happens on a tractor, you'll be amazed). And utilities cost about the same as a compact to purchase. They won't turn as well, but hell, 94 acres, you'll have plenty of room to turn around. A front end loader is mighty useful on a tractor, but remember Ag loaders don't dig (I mean they will, but they aren't designed to and they don't do it very well.). They are designed to move loose material (bedding, manure, etc) and bales of hay, pallets, etc. If you need to dig a lot, rent something that digs. (esp for a backhoe, rent a real backhoe, $200/day delivered). ex. breakout force on a average skid steer is about 4000lbs, on a compact tractor it's about 1800 lbs and on a 75hp utility it's about 3000lbs. IT's easy to bend the loader frame on a Ag loader. Get a universal quick attach loader. You can change buckets, use pallet forks, etc quickly easily and cheaply. do NOT buy a proprietary system for quick attach. If you do buy a JD, get rid of their shitty bucket and get something better. JD has had shitty buckets for 30 years, and any JD owner will tell you this. Diesel. turbo is the best, but it must be a diesel (anything built in the last 15 years is diesel) Must have rollover protection (ROPS). keep it up, use it. You don't need it til it's too late (and by far I"m not a safety nazi) 5' implements are toys. They are designed for occasional homeowner use on less than 5 acres, they are priced accordingly and they will do this job fine for a long time. 94 acres is a lot of land. 6', 7' and up implements are heavy duty (even the light duty ones) and they cost a LOT. ex. You can buy a relatively ok 5' rotary cutter for about $750 brand new. a 6' cutter will cost you $2200 and up. But ti's dramatically more heavy duty. Nobody ever wishes for 2wd but 2wd drive owners do wish for 4wd. Always get 4wd, you don't keep it in 4wd 90% of the time (just like a car) Nobody ever wishes for less power. After you pick the size of the tractor that is good for you, get the most HP in that frame size. Green, orange or blue. (JD, kubota, New Holland/Case (same company). Green makes fine tractors, but seriously overpriced IMHO. We run blue, but orange is damn fine too Dealers matter, find a good one and buy from them. Weight your tires, worth every penny (and it's cheap) in stability and pulling power. Weight matters in tractors, more is better. esp with ground engaging tasks. Don't buy anything from a farmer's auction. Farmers use everything up to the very very absolute last end. Then they sell it. You'll get junk, used is fine, but not from farmer's. They know how to use something up. I've got tons more hard won advice, ask away. |
| Listen to BozemanMT. He has it right. I have 160 acres and use my tractor for the real work while my ATV is used to simply haul me and some tools from here to there. In the end you will likely get both, but a utility size tractor would work well for your situation. The tractor must have a loader/bucket and a backhoe attachment is also nice when you need it. |
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Where I go to play in ohio a friend owns some land and most of his neighbors play around as well.
One has a bobcat utility vehicle, diesel side by side perhaps, and it is going to be a lot better at dragging stuff but it is slower when running from point a to point b when we are all on four wheelers and he is in his bobcat thing. The four wheelers are good for checking fenceline or doing little chores like taking a weedeater and some fuel somewhere so you can weedeat for a few hours. With a trailer they can haul some firewood but depending on terrain it is easy to cause yourself problems. My friend has a bobcat skid steer he uses to make a living and it gets used for lots of stuff a tractor might be used for like using his grapple bucket to grab logs and what not. I typed all that out to basically explain why I think you should get a tractor first. A fourwheeler can be very nice when checking on stuff or running around to check out the view on top of the hill or whatever. But it won't replace a tractor and I personaly consider all the atv implements to be toys. They can do some work but having messed with little snow plows I was not impressed. I would be careful about getting a huge tractor if you will have problems getting it around your property. Go read up on tractorbynet and watch what is coming up for sale in your local ads. |
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Frozenny, before you buy a tractor, educate yourself on tractor rollovers. What you learn may influence what you end up buying.
http://images.google.com/images?q=tractor+rollover&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=vWXkSo-QM5KC8QbTgr2IBw&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CCAQsAQwAw |
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You'll need both.
I have 50 acres, and a Kubota L4330. I need an ATV. They both do different things. An ATV will plow and move dirt poorly. They are not designed for draft, but do an OK, light duty job. My tractor pulled an F350 crewcab with a 12000lb trailer up my driveway in a muddy winter. But I'd love an ATV to run fence, spray weeds in the right areas, etc. |
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Quoted:
Frozenny, before you buy a tractor, educate yourself on tractor rollovers. What you learn may influence what you end up buying. http://images.google.com/images?q=tractor+rollover&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=vWXkSo-QM5KC8QbTgr2IBw&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CCAQsAQwAw I agree 100% We nearly turned one over on a hill that was not that steep. They are made for flat ground. |