The worst sheep are the Chiefs of Sheep. The hierarchy of Law Enforcement is often more political than LE.  In order to advance you need to kiss ass, agree to them and their policies. I have seen too many cops roll over for them. Fortunately they are the minority, the 49 that were quiet will come trough in the end when it matters. Right now paying mortgages and bills comes first, so they will shut up and grumble.
As for the powers that be? They just told you they simply do not trust us. It is not AlQueida they fear it is the American people. Watch for diversions

Interesting discussion.

A WW2 quote comes to mind, Japan's General Yamamoto (sp?) made a statement something to the effect of "you can not invade the mainland United States, there would be a rifle behind each blade of grass"
I often think of this while reading some post here. A lot of the folks here talk about hi cap weapons like the AR and AK, but in a real SHTF "invasion"
by our own government such weapons that our government seems to fear most may not be the best choice. single individuals and small groups would be better served by sniper tactics and scoped hunting rifles.  Our government has given us a play book on how to defend against them, all you have to do is look at how they deal with the Iraqi war and insurgents. I tend to think of the AR's and AK's as defensive weapons, and my old Win mod 70 30-06 as my offensive weapon. And to, they would not have the full power of the military to use against their own people, as at least some of the military would see the light so to speak and side with the american people.
I think the people who would not normally take up arms to defend against our own government would be made more likely to do so in the event that foreign forces were brought in to help the government. I think that would be a major misstep on the fed's part, and one I would hope that they would make.
The government knows that they have no chance of defeating the American people in a revolution type scenario, and I do believe there has been discussions in Washington about the possibilities and options. The fact that they know they can't win is why they have to rob us of our liberty slowly, like opening a can of soda, if they just open it up all at once things will get messy, if they crack it open nice and slow, by the time its open there won't be an fizz left to worry about.  (They think)  There is a big difference in going to war because you are told to, and going to war to defend your home and country.  
The American people ARE the United States. The government is not. The feds are simply a play ground bully that is over grown for his age. He can beat up any one of the other kids and all of the teachers (media) like him and believe his lies. But if he goes too far some day, and all the kids group together, the bully is screwed like a snowball in hell.

The info in the OP [thank's for posting it!] shouldn't be unexpected at all.

The Left has completely infiltrated every US 'institution' and have been solidifying their foothold among the .mil and LE for years.

"The American people ARE the United States. The government is not. The feds are simply a play ground bully that is over grown for his age. He can beat up any one of the other kids and all of the teachers (media) like him and believe his lies. But if he goes too far some day, and all the kids group together, the bully is screwed like a snowball in hell."



The above is exactly why we can expect things to continue to unfold slowly over years, just like it has been for 50 years.

Every time you turn on your boob tube, or go to 'most' movies, or participate in PC 'thinking', we all contribute to it and the Left fully understands this and capitalizes on it.

For example, look at all the folks in GD and compare them to the arguably more 'thinking' folks here.

Basically, if the data can be believed, we're ultimately screwed.

Don't think so, think again when you redirect your attention to your TV.

Generally the our military need resupply, only some elite units can live off the land. And how many of them, they are a bit more to independent thought, Remember that the locals (us) will know the lay of the land, have local support, and have the advantage of technical advisors in the military that jump ship...GO Wolverines!!!

Great and eye opening post!

+1

Stay strong in your beliefs.  Thanks for standing up and being heard.

My First Post. Also LEO in Pa. Interesting discussion. You're not alone.

EdH

First, very good thread.

Second, I have known a few people in state and federal law enforcement.  One fed started as a "good ole boy" and devout Christian who loved guns and would probably fit in on this forum.  Today, he is like the FBI agent described by the OP.  Another fed friend is more like myself, but when it comes to things such as gun laws he doesn't care - - because he gets to keep his.  He would probably feel bad about enforcing an unjust law, but he would do it.  I was speaking with the wife of a state LEO about this type of stuff and she was saying that her husband would "follow orders" without question, because that is what they are trained to do (he was also national guard).  This ties in with my third point.  

Third, have you noticed the way LEO agencies recruit from the military.  They want people who "follow orders" - enough said?  The other large group of LEO I see in my community comes from the entitlement class.  You think they are going to buck the only provider thay have ever known?  

Finally, posse comitatus (sp?) is dead.  Don't think for a second that it protects you from anything.  

My primary point is that there are some good LEOs.  There are some that would refuse unconstitutional orders.  If you are in small town USA, there may even be quite a few of them.  However, please don't assume they are any resemblance to the majority of LEOs in the US.

Didn't Lincoln override the Constitution a few times? And how about hte others?

Boy its real sad to see the straights our country is in these days.

It used to be a point of American pride to believe strongly in the principles of the Bible, or to have an opinion for that matter anyways.

A fair amount of us knew what the Patriot Act was all about and that it would be turned inward eventually. Here we see the beginning. The labeling and marginalizing. Demonizing. A complicit media, brainwashing the countless masses into state collective thinking. The militirization of the police at all levels. The out of control attitude police display towards the citizenry and its rights. Openly combative rhetoric from the highest offices of gov towards groups of civilians categorized as "political dissidents". Conditioning away our rights under the guise of "safety".  You can bet if you have been hanging around this website or advocating smaller gov principles anywhere else you are on the "list".

The good ole days you and I and our parents remember growing up here, are dead and gone.

The great whore has no more clothes on. Babylon the great is falling, is falling....

This place will be a police state nightmare in ten yrs. Major cities I imagine will resemble Orwellian London.

We all know that aint going to happen. US Northcom has now activated brigades to operate on US soil to train poilice and conduct surveillance measures against the American populace. Military has stated it will get involved heavily in case of Swine Flu pandemic. NG was on the streets of NOLA taking private firearms. POSSE COMITATUS is dead.

The Constitution has been taking an Acid Bath for several administrations now. We are just around the bend from witnessing the rogue federal gov's attempt at a total power grab.

Amen brother!

Hopefully my dept (been LEO in Michigan for 14+ years) send me to the jackasses training. I'll pull my big assed dodge ram with the Dont Tread on Me sticker on the back window and park rightnext to him and dare (secretly hope, actually) him to say anything to me about it. We could make that class last ALLLLLLLL day, LOL.

J-

WELL, then I won't be around for very long to witness the raping of my country, stay close, you'll score big in battlefield pick ups after I'm gone.

Thank you for speaking out.
But you haven't really stood up yet, have you?

Find out who that persons manager his and find out who the managing contact with the FBI is.  Write a letter to both of them stating the facts and that this was inappropriate behavior, both from a personal standpoint of the personal attacks and insults and even slander, and from the standpoint of spreading dangerous information suggesting improper police procedures.  Ask for a resolution to this, and a timely answer to your letter describing the resolution to these problems.  Keep it professional.  Courtesy Copy (CC) your attorney.  With the CC to your attorney, tell him you don't want him to take any action at this time, but want to keep him informed in case there is a problem.

Take their response, if they give any, which will be bureaucratic doublespeak, and write letters to both your state and federal congressional representatives, as this is both a state (state law enforcement) and federal (FBI) problem, and send copies of the departments (non or baloney)  responses.  Tell them you sought resolution within those departments, but it was unsatisfactory, and that you want to ensure that this isn't the state and federal policies with them.  Ask for specific resolution to this problem you identify, that is, within those departments, and from policy standpoints above them.   Make sure they understand this is not just a generic letter requesting obscure future implementation of lawmaking, and that you desire answers to your letters.

If you find that your representatives' answers are not sufficient, you may then want to consider going to the media with it.

Everyone seems to think SHTF is someday maybe in the future.  It ain't.  It is in the rear view mirror and now.  This is the fight, you've seen it first hand and personal, and it is now your time to fight.

You know they are wrong, so make them admit it and correct their behavior.

I love it. Where are you from. I grew up in AuGres, lived in Owosso also.

OK, Back to thread topic.

StagPower

Ya'll give the feds too much credit.  They have to meet, marshal somewhere.  Wouldn't go any further.  Done.

We go by the Constitution, we got the Army.  "Military."

As it should be.


Carry on.

Great post.  Welcome aboard!

Just to add - these "intel" people like this Turd Ferguson you met are not representative of all the fed.   I can guarentee you that few if any folks where I work would ever participate in going after citizens.   Why?  Well to begin with there is this thing called the union....   And then there is the union agreement/policy.

 Then factor in the amazing amounts of retards who would not even carry a gun if they had the option much less actually handcuff a real terrorist...

Most of these type "analysts" (which I'll refer to as Turd Fergusons (TF) from here on out) are johnny come lately, fresh out of some liberal retard college, just got hired and got their shiny new badge, barely can qualify with their duty weapon types who want to make a name for themselves.   They routinely interject their politics into the situation to hopefully achieve their desired end.  

On the opposite side of the coin is the multitudes of LE firearms instructors (majority of them very pro-gun owners) who take the time to educate about our rights as well as the constitution and the limitations upon our powers.  

I think if SHTF you have more to fear from roving gangs of looters and opportunists than you do from the fed.  

The day they order something so unconstitutional is the day my badge gets turned in.   The gun, well they can have it too.

I have plenty more...

Welcome to both the new posters.  One a fellow Buckeye and the other a next door neighbor. Glad to hear your perspectives too.

Welcome Dingeman.

It is comforting to know that many of our Law Enforcement brothers are not just sitting idly by while the drum beats on.

Thanks for speaking up.  I guarantee a MAJORITY of the other officers felt as you did but were either afraid to speak up, or were experiencing a sugar crash after dining on the pre-briefing "power rings".  

As a non-LEO, I am comforted by the fact that there are so many LEO's here who are willing to speak out about this problem. Not just here on Arfcom, but in front of their leadership, which is leadership on its own.


I pray that you guys have an effect on your entire departments or agencies. Thank you.

This.
5sub

Great post.  Although Arfcom no doubt has it's share of kooks, libtards and informants, the vast majority are just ordinary, honest, patriotic Americans who are beginning to wake up and become aware that our Nation has drifted from what it was meant to be.

A few thoughts:

A bureaucracy is like an animal.  Neither good, or evil, but it will protect itself at all costs.  Those who believe in "Less Government" truly do present a clear and present danger to the Feds.  

Our Federal Government, and most State and local governments have grown to the point where they are economically unsustainable.  What this means; is that amid declining tax receipts and declining budgets, the respective bureaucracies will have to fight each other for their piece of the pie.  They WILL invent new ways to justify their budget.  It is the nature of the beast.

People that have the ability to form their own personal values are a small minority.  People who have the courage to stand by their convictions are fewer still.  This applies to all people including LEOs  and Military personnel.  

People also have a great capacity for self-delusion.  They WILL convince themselves that their cause is just.

The percentage of truly evil people in Nazi Germany was probably less than .01%  The rest were just dedicated, loyal workers who were working to provide their families with a comfortable income and retirement pension.  

I'm always glad to hear of a law enforcement officer becoming aware of the slippery slope we are on, but none of us should harbor any illusions that some mass epiphany is going to magically preserve liberty.  Even a casual study of human nature and history would suggest otherwise.

It up to each one of us, to try to educate our neighbors as to the relavance and the value of our Constitution, as written.

And then mention this...............



Impressive.

This is an eye opening topic.

dingeman, welcome to the forum.  evidently the info you heard continues to be disseminated.  link

the first few paragraphs and the list:

A private activist organization apparently is picking up where the federal government left off when the Department of Homeland Security issued its "Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment" warning that returning veterans and people in a long list of other categories were potential terrorists.

Only the new warning, delivered recently to police officers, sheriffs and other law enforcement personnel across the country, is lumping those dedicated to the constitutional principles on which the nation was founded together with crazed killers.

The fall 2009 "Intelligence Report" was issued recently by the Southern Poverty Law Center, where officials confirmed to WND it was published specifically for and delivered to law enforcement personnel across the nation. The SPLC did not respond to a WND request for other comment.

. . . .

The warning from the SPLC echoes the alarmism from the earlier federal report. WND has posted the report online.
It warned of potential terrorism threats from those who:

   * Oppose abortion
   * Are returning veterans
   * Oppose same-sex marriage
   * Oppose restrictions on firearms
   * Oppose lax immigration laws
   * Oppose the policies of President Obama regarding immigration, citizenship, and the expansion of social programs
   * Oppose continuation of free trade agreements
   * Are suspect of foreign regimes
   * Fear Communist regimes
   * Oppose a "one world" government
   * Bemoan the decline of U.S. stature in the world
   * Are upset with loss of U.S. manufacturing jobs to China and India, and more
________________

if you're gonna paint w/ broad strokes, you might as well have the biggest ass brush available.

Just be careful what you say and to whom. Sometimes it is best to just bite your tongue.

Funny you should say this.

I started flying the Gadsen flag a long time ago before it was so popular.  And I have always used the back glass of my vehicles as my bilboard.  I attend joint WMD/counter terrorism meetings almost every month.  The other month I was in my jeep and was early to arrive.  As I sat in my jeep the regional Fed pulled up to my rear and "read" my glass.  Among the stickers (not many and neatly arranged) was the Gadsen flag.  Then he pulled up next to me and I just looked at him, waved and smiled.  

BTW- The topic for the month was Domestic Terrorism.  

Gunmen, I absolutely agree but when do we know it's time to speak out? We all have our scenarios. I've had my own issues with trainers and let my opinion be known and public. Nothing came of it. Emails, letters and discussions are ignored.

Great post, and thank you.
Things have been headed this way for a while.IMHO, worse is yet to come.

no, sounds like a leader indoctrinating 49 others.  And only one guy stood up to him.  Paul this guy was the trainer.  He wasn't a "rogue" agent.  And just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it isn't out there.  Hey put your self in his shoes, what other signs are out there?  if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck....guess what, it ain't an elephant.  So to them, christians bomb abortion clinics.  Patriots.

I'm sure we all remember the footage of a Fed teaching that the Founding Fathers were terrorists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBxepLmBspo

First, I wouldn't worry about the UN. They are poorly managed and inept.
Second, I wouldn't worry about FEMA. They have been trying to push responsibility for emergency management and response down to the local government for some time now.
Third, I am encouraged that the recent teabag rallies and the big march on Washington has shown who really is mainstream. If the congress and/or other beaurecrats don't get the message yet, they will. A couple more big rallies, maybe a national open carry day will get them to see the light. If not they are in for a big change.
Fourth, the problem with the government labeling people and expecting them to act in a certain way sometimes becomes a self fulling prophecy.  It is true that many right wing extremists are religious Christian zealots, anti-abortion and anti-government. However, not all regilious zealots, anti abortionists or antigovernment. If however you label them terrorists you are forcing them to defend themselves which lives up to the governments expectations as being terrorists. In other words, if you expect people to act a certain way and you push them enought so they have no other choice but to act in that way, they will live up to your expectations.

The problem with Emergency Management being placed on local jurisdictions is that they accept money from the feds. With that money comes regs and mandates that must be followed. Once the locals have that money it's real hard to give up. The same with police departments. In order to get certain grants that are made available because of tax dollars the departments have to meet certain criteria. Normally once they accept the money they are beholding to the feds. Take the money away from the feds and you take away their power to control locals and state government.

First off, welcome.

I am also a LEO in Ohio.  I have been a TLO since our Department formed the basis of the regional TEWG.  The first thing that came to my mind after reading your post is that your organization needs a new TLO to teach the class.

The indicators you referenced are not indicators as such.  There are some indicators out there, usually leading to a group referred to as the "Freemen".  Without going into detail, and drifting way off topic, groups like this can be violent to Law Enforcement, as a neighboring county agency discovered several years ago in SW Ohio with a pair of individuals known as the Keyhole (might have mis-spelled the name) brothers.  

Our agency of 1,150 officers had to undergo DHS training a few years ago, part of a Federal Grant.  It was kind of like a correspondence course. Supervision had to take additional courses.  As a relief Sergeant, I had to take 5 of them, as I remember.

Basically, It demonstrated the Federal way of managing an incident.  I now understand how Katrina became such a goat f**k.  (To best sum up the FEMA/DHS method of managing a crisis, think  "form a group to study forming another group, to form another group... Document all of the above on the appropriate 5 page form, then form another group to properly file said forms...)

While survivalists have had a negative image over the years by many, it is important to understand how this occurred. People who quietly amass food and supplies are really not news worthy.  Seriously, how high can a network boost their ratings showing a guy with several 5 gal buckets of rice and beans?

Now get a bunch of people in military dress, shooting full auto weapons, blowing stuff up, all while you are interviewing some talking head "leader" rambling on about overthrowing the government, well now we got some news worthy material.  These types of individuals would not, and do not last very long on this site. One of the reasons I have been coming to this site for a few years to learn and share information.

There are also some domestic terrorist groups out there that as a LEO, you need to be aware of.  Lack of information in this area could cause you to have a really bad day at work.

One of the key tactics utilized by many people into preparedness is to  try to go unnoticed if they find themselves involved in a SHTF type of incident.  There are many terms you will hear, "Flying under the radar" "Gray man", the idea is the same.

Do not be shy about speaking your mind while attending any type of inservice training.  Over the last 18 years, I have found that the majority of the individuals conducting the training have not spent much time actually doing the job.  F**k'em...  I have spent my entire career either as a patrol officer, or as a supervisor of patrol officers.  I am known for calling "BS" when I hear it.  

Several of my co-workers have preps.  Several might even have bumper stickers that your TLO would not be happy with.  I would be willing to bet that each of these officers averages more Felony arrests in a week than the guy teaching your training class does in a month.  Most of them are military vets.  I would not recommend calling them terrorists, one might have a very bad day by doing so.  They are patriots who I would and have trust my life with.

The Feds are in the same boat.  There are Feds in all parts of the Federal system who are not afraid to go out and do their job, even if it means getting their hands dirty.  In local Law Enforcement, those would be the patrol officers, otherwise known as "Beat Trash". (Yes, I are one...)  

Then there exists the politically correct liberal types who are career oriented.  These talking heads are the ones with the nice looking suits, that never get dirty (parish the thought!) who in the private sector are referred as "yes men".  They rank right up there with defense attorneys and politicians.  

Now if you are king fed, who do you thing you are going to send out to talk to other agencies about the current politically correct methods of dealing with the worlds issues?  Your politically correct wiz kid, dressed in his finest, spouting the current theories concocted with grant money from some social scientist?  Or are you going to send some fire breathing, cursing, grumpy old fart who actually think that sometimes all the happy thoughts of the world just don't cut it, and you have to shoot the SOB before he shoots you.  

There is a reason they don't let guys like me lecture at Academy classes...

There is also a reason guys like me seem to become popular during periods of social civil unrest, and riots.

That you thought this guy was full of shit means you have potential.  Hang in there.  They can't eat you...

I just noticed I have finally reached post number 1,000.  It seems like only yesterday I was at post # 999...

I would argue that it will be the tea partiers and Glenn Beck followers. You can already see it coming from the Pelosis, Reids and their ilk. WE will be the ones to be blamed.
Bank on it! Remember when the new DHLS Secretary, Napolitano, warned about returning vets, Bible Toters, etc? Sounds just like what the OP described.

A couple of things:
1. I thought that Japanese quote was an urban myth, but I might be wrong. Regardless, you made your point;
2. Your Win Mod 70 is my Weatherby MK 5;  and you are absolutely right;  
3. Bringing in foreign forces, most likely via the UN would be a HUGE screw up;
4. Your last paragraph is spot on!

fedzilla is able to apply power to point targets (waco etc) pretty easily and with devestating effect.  The problem for them during a revolution is the scale of the problem.  In spite of it's heinous size, fedzilla doesn't have 1/1000th the manpower they would need, unless they use the military and/or foreign forces....either one of which could backfire massively. Think about how many men we have rotated through Iraq and how long it took to slow down the 'insurgents' there.  The US is MUCH larger geographically and with respect to population.  Make no mistake, a nationwide-rebellion is a serious threat to the feds....especially if it goes on for awhile.  At some point, the feds get their $, fuel etc from the economy.  During a full on rebellion, how much tax money is gonna be rolling in?  How much resources are the 'rebellers' going to produce for the fed LEO war machine?  I think a lot of good guys would get waxed and in the end, fedzilla would lose, and lose huge.

Thank you for standing up. It is unfortunate that he was doing his best to shame you into conforming.  This is how things are now though and we all know that it comes from the top. It may be a small percentage who believe this but it is enough to spur an incident. I think that is the goal. How are your loyalties going to go when things get pushed into another Waco?  When your fellow LEO's die, even if it was due to an order from one of the "believers" where will your heart lie?    

They do not have the manpower now for a full frontal but when a couple officers die they will get thier way with more manpower.  This asshole is trying to set you up to be a martyr.  

I'd hate to be LEO now. You guys are pawns being used to herd other pawns and you are stuck in the middle of all this.  Things are just going to get more vague and the lines more blurred for you guys. I pray you can keep your heads.

And when the depression starts, and the tax revenues dry up... That bully is going to start swinging because it is the only thing he knows how to do...  Same can be said for all the world governments, both externally towards each other, and internally.

[/quote]

First off, welcome.

I am also a LEO in Ohio.  I have been a TLO since our Department formed the basis of the regional TEWG.  The first thing that came to my mind after reading your post is that your organization needs a new TLO to teach the class.

The indicators you referenced are not indicators as such.  There are some indicators out there, usually leading to a group referred to as the "Freemen".  Without going into detail, and drifting way off topic, groups like this can be violent to Law Enforcement, as a neighboring county agency discovered several years ago in SW Ohio with a pair of individuals known as the Keyhole (might have mis-spelled the name) brothers.  

Our agency of 1,150 officers had to undergo DHS training a few years ago, part of a Federal Grant.  It was kind of like a correspondence course. Supervision had to take additional courses.  As a relief Sergeant, I had to take 5 of them, as I remember.

Basically, It demonstrated the Federal way of managing an incident.  I now understand how Katrina became such a goat f**k.  (To best sum up the FEMA/DHS method of managing a crisis, think  "form a group to study forming another group, to form another group... Document all of the above on the appropriate 5 page form, then form another group to properly file said forms...)

While survivalists have had a negative image over the years by many, it is important to understand how this occurred. People who quietly amass food and supplies are really not news worthy.  Seriously, how high can a network boost their ratings showing a guy with several 5 gal buckets of rice and beans?

Now get a bunch of people in military dress, shooting full auto weapons, blowing stuff up, all while you are interviewing some talking head "leader" rambling on about overthrowing the government, well now we got some news worthy material.  These types of individuals would not, and do not last very long on this site. One of the reasons I have been coming to this site for a few years to learn and share information.

There are also some domestic terrorist groups out there that as a LEO, you need to be aware of.  Lack of information in this area could cause you to have a really bad day at work.

One of the key tactics utilized by many people into preparedness is to  try to go unnoticed if they find themselves involved in a SHTF type of incident.  There are many terms you will hear, "Flying under the radar" "Gray man", the idea is the same.

Do not be shy about speaking your mind while attending any type of inservice training.  Over the last 18 years, I have found that the majority of the individuals conducting the training have not spent much time actually doing the job.  F**k'em...  I have spent my entire career either as a patrol officer, or as a supervisor of patrol officers.  I am known for calling "BS" when I hear it.  

Several of my co-workers have preps.  Several might even have bumper stickers that your TLO would not be happy with.  I would be willing to bet that each of these officers averages more Felony arrests in a week than the guy teaching your training class does in a month.  Most of them are military vets.  I would not recommend calling them terrorists, one might have a very bad day by doing so.  They are patriots who I would and have trust my life with.

The Feds are in the same boat.  There are Feds in all parts of the Federal system who are not afraid to go out and do their job, even if it means getting their hands dirty.  In local Law Enforcement, those would be the patrol officers, otherwise known as "Beat Trash". (Yes, I are one...)  

Then there exists the politically correct liberal types who are career oriented.  These talking heads are the ones with the nice looking suits, that never get dirty (parish the thought!) who in the private sector are referred as "yes men".  They rank right up there with defense attorneys and politicians.  

Now if you are king fed, who do you thing you are going to send out to talk to other agencies about the current politically correct methods of dealing with the worlds issues?  Your politically correct wiz kid, dressed in his finest, spouting the current theories concocted with grant money from some social scientist?  Or are you going to send some fire breathing, cursing, grumpy old fart who actually think that sometimes all the happy thoughts of the world just don't cut it, and you have to shoot the SOB before he shoots you.  

There is a reason they don't let guys like me lecture at Academy classes...

There is also a reason guys like me seem to become popular during periods of social civil unrest, and riots.

That you thought this guy was full of shit means you have potential.  Hang in there.  They can't eat you...

I just noticed I have finally reached post number 1,000.  It seems like only yesterday I was at post # 999...
[/quote]

I appreciate all the responses and words or encouragement.  I have thought about this problem for a while now and just wanted to see what you guys thought.  I truly believe there are going to be tough decisions ahead for all of us.  My wife and I have been watching the HBO series John Adams, based on the David McCullough book.  If you haven't seen it, you need to at least see the first two episodes, Join or die and independence.   Some of the important points that have been reinforced by the series:

Most of our forefathers were trying like hell to avoid war and violence.  The British were the ones who decided on war.  Even when war was already upon them some argued against it.
     John Dickinson's final argument against declaring independence wreaked of the same anti-war arguments that are perpetuated today.

Nothing about their decision for independence was easy or comfortable.
    There is an awesome scene just after they vote for the passage of the Declaration of Independence.  There was no celebration.  They all sat silently, sure that they had just signed their death warrant.

There decisions were made upon what they believed was right, not what was good for them personally.
    Many of them suffered greatly along with the rest of the colonists.  This is an area which is a personal peeve of mine present day.  Here is an example:  Our church elders were trying to decide whether to allow CCW in our church.  Ohio CCW law says its not allowed unless specifically ok'd by the church.  So I was answering some questions about CCW that they had.  Our church attorney was arguing that we opened ourselves up to liability and the typical politically correct B.S.  I kinda lost it and said," when did we start making decisions based on the consequences instead of what is right?"  As it turns I jumped the guns because the elders already held this view and voted unanimously to allow CCW.  Whew!
    More powerful than the British, the Nazi's, the Soviets, of the Feds is the  TRUTH.
   

So my encouragement to everyone out there is this:
Live your beliefs well.
Speak your beliefs often.
Make the hard choice to do whats right regardless of the cost.
And if you are right, fight like hell!

This has been bothering me for some time now.  Getting caught in the middle of something real ugly.  This is why the "Oathkeepers" principles needs to be spread throughout LEO agencies, until it becomes mainstream.

I have co-workers who have a huge us vs. them mentality.  I have friends who share the same principles as I, but lump all "eeebil gubmint agents" together.  It's quite a job sometimes, to educate some people that there are police officers who believe in liberty and the natural rights of man.

I still think it would be possible for a LEO to say NO. I  think the trick for that would be to recognize the tipping point of the situation.  I'll finally say it in a forum, I am a LEO and have been for 18 years. Before that I was in the USAF for 12. I have never thought of the Neurenberg (sp) answer to be correct.  I will not allow myself to be put in a possition that I know to be wrong and then fall on the Neurenberg answer.
Neurenberg answers is "I was just following orders"
There are other lines of work and way to support the family without being a moral criminal to you own people.

GoJoe-
    By no means should you take my post to mean that I will follow illegal orders.  
    'nuff said.

OP, excellent post and topic! Most of what I think has already been posted, but one question I keep asking myself is, will the federal agencies try to turn us LEO aginst each other? The feds have got to know that there are many of us who favor limited government, etc., and they know we won't "follow orders" if we are confronted with something that is blatantly unconstituional.

I believe they will try. They get the jurisdictions hooked on money from the Fed in the form of grants and such. That's their power. Departments compete for it. Once they've got it they don't want to give it up. They put some pressure on management and threaten to cut funding and management folds. It will be up to the individual to take a stand. One at a time we may not be able to do anything. As a group we've got some power. You and I know there are a lot of cut-throat people out there though. We've got to get it together and let them know we aren't going to back off.

This is the Slow Creep we have been experiencing for years. Thanks for your post, Sir.

Regards,
Chris