[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Got Training? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 8/25/2009 11:37:19 AM EDT
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We all obviously understand the value of firearms in a SHTF or EOTWAWKI situation. After all, this is a gun board first and foremost. I was wondering how many of us have recent, relevant, and realistic training in the use of our firearms. Also, if you do, how much more effective do you think the training made you if you have to defend yourself?
I know that before my first class, I thought I was pretty much good to go. Boy, was I wrong. I didn’t even know how much I didn’t know. Yeah, I knew how to shoot, but I didn’t really know how to fight! I believe my readiness quotient is now three or four times what it was and I know I still have a long way to go. If you have never had any formal training where you are taught to fight with a weapon, or had any lately, I would really suggest you look into it. Not only will you learn a ton, but you will most likely have fun and possibly meet some like minded folks. |
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Lots of it. I am almost to the point that I would rather go to another class than buy another gun......It's that addictive.
Having been brought up in a "gun household" I think I probably started a little ahead of alot of folks but I would say that the courses I have taken over the last 10 years make me 50-60% better than what I was before I took them. ETA: There is a "new" place in Dilley that I'm looking at pretty hard right now. Wrote up (4x4 driving class) in SWAT last month. Here-http://www.itiwsi.com/training_calendar.html |
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Yep, sure do and it's gotten me much more prepared.
I've recently gotten the spousal unit into a few classes and she looks forward to more. It's totally changed the way we think and act in 'routine' situations. We talk openly about it, discuss what ifs and talk about a plan if going into certain situations, rather than just assuming things would work out or actions would be taken. I'll spend $ on more training before I buy more guns and ammo after learning the value of good training. Take a low light/night time defensive class if you really want to learn some of your shortcomings. |
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Quoted:
We all obviously understand the value of firearms in a SHTF or EOTWAWKI situation. After all, this is a gun board first and foremost. I was wondering how many of us have recent, relevant, and realistic training in the use of our firearms. Also, if you do, how much more effective do you think the training made you if you have to defend yourself? I know that before my first class, I thought I was pretty much good to go. Boy, was I wrong. I didn’t even know how much I didn’t know. Yeah, I knew how to shoot, but I didn’t really know how to fight! I believe my readiness quotient is now three or four times what it was and I know I still have a long way to go. If you have never had any formal training where you are taught to fight with a weapon, or had any lately, I would really suggest you look into it. Not only will you learn a ton, but you will most likely have fun and possibly meet some like minded folks. I thought the exact same thing about myself. That is until I took the Magpul Dynamics Carbine 1 & 2. It was very eye-opening, and I've been shooting all my life (hunting and plinking). But I've never had to shoot under pressure, and after the class I now view shooting in a different light. My "skills" of punching paper leisurely at the range were pretty much useless for the Carbine 1 & 2 class. And I now realize how inefficient I was as a shooter prior to the class. It's amazing how a little stress induced drill will break you down mentally. I was forgetting basic fundamentals that I've practiced for years. And then throw a weapon malfunction in there and your brain seems to shut down. All the while having safety as a top priority. I learned so many things in the class even though I watched their DVD's 20 times beforehand. There's no replacement for hands on training. There's alot of value in the saying "Train like you fight". |
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I'll add my voice as well, FWIW. I'd been training with some Special Forces type folks for a while, but it was nothing like a 3 day class. It's been a while now, I'll update when funds become available.
Owning guns makes you a shooter like owning a piano makes you a musician.. Ops |
| The wife and I each took a 24 hour ground fighting class this spring. (which left me bruised, tired and battered) but a whole lot better. This summer 24 hour partner tactics (pistol) and 24 hour in Tactical Rifle 1. Costs 2X for the both of us but the return is well worth the price. It's like Cooper said "Just because you carry a violin around does not mean that you can play a tune." |
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Yes, training is very key. You can look cool all mall ninja'd out or you can actually put some of that high speed gear to use and learn to use it. One thing that I REALLY learned in my training, besides the stuff I need to work on, was about my kit. What worked, what didn't, and that was worth the price of admission right there. Things like not being able to pull a mag out because something got hung up, or any number of things. It forced me to update a few things and try again at the next class.
Another thing that I like to focus on, training with my wife. We need to know how the other will react in various situations. We've practiced clearing shoot houses with live ammo. Nothing says trust like being in a stack with your wife behind you with live ammo to clear a room. |
| i went through the police academy in baton rouge a number of years back. i learned a hella lot, but the most important thing i learned was that your mental state (i.e., awareness) will most often win the fight. the head of the academy always stressed asking yourself "what if" in every situation and playing out the scenario in your mind. i also learned that i had a lot more to learn, which was contrary to what many in the academy thought after we finished. |
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Yes, I have taken some 1 day courses and a 3 day course as well.
In particular, the three day course was the most valuable as I was taught some HTH as well as the usual rifle and pistol work. Fighting in the sun and being thrown to the ground repeatedly for 45 mins. straight, then gearing up for the range will test your limits. No amount of timer beeps or instructor yelling in your ear can substitute for the stress of being beaten for a while. 
Good stuff, I highly recommend it if you can find it. 
-White Horse |
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Spent 14 years in the Army - the vast majority w/ the Infantry, did some NG SF time in college.
Been out for a few years now, well maybe a bit more than a few - age creeps up on you, and it is a VERY perishable skill, but I still do some drill work when I have time. Would love to take some classes, but time just isn't available between a very busy job and 6 active kids. |
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I was in a 3-day Carbine course in Pittsburg put on by the FIRE Institute (www.Fireinstitute.org). Here are some notes I put out while taking the course: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=449823 I'm still working on the complete review, I'll post a link when it's up in the Training Forum. |
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Quoted: Some trainers will allow you to take thier course with a 10/22. Also, there are several 'fighting with a shotgun' courses available.
Unfortunately I have neither the money nor arms (10/22 and 12 gauge only. =/) Maybe in a few years (if we're still around...) I'll be able to afford it. |
| Army ROTC...I know most will mock, but luckily in my battalion we had a high speed cadre. We had two senior NCOs who wore the scroll before they got rotated out. (One actually went back to the Regiment to take part in the jump to capture the airfield in OIF I) Our LTC was tabbed, so they collaborated to train the hell out of us, did STXs every weekend, double the FTXs of most other BNs, and they stressed MOUT. We did shoot houses all the time, drills, etc, and thanks to them I learned a lot. I was truly blessed to have them. |
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Quoted: Army ROTC...I know most will mock, No offense but... I've had 4 years of Army ROTC, at the Nation's oldest private military college, we had all kinds of 'high speed' instructors, including tabbed cadets and our own rappelling tower, MILEs gear etc. I've also gone through Basic and AIT. None of that compares to what you'll learn in a good 3 day carbine course - it's not even close. The other thing I'd point out the Army teaches tactics that are meant to be used as a team. What happens when (in 99.999% of the real world violent crime situations) you're on your own. Again a good carbine class or two will teach you the individual tactics you'll need to know. |
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34 days so far this year. About a dozen public classes and more than a few private classes. Not all gun related, some medical, some dental (that was totally cool!). Doesn't include regular weekly stuff like MMA practice, time at the home range, etc.
I'm always surprised to see the "my grandpappy taught me to shoot 40 years ago so I don't need that stuff" type posts still on survival boards. I thought people got the word a decade or more ago that they needed to seek professional training. |
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Quoted:
We all obviously understand the value of firearms in a SHTF or EOTWAWKI situation. After all, this is a gun board first and foremost. I was wondering how many of us have recent, relevant, and realistic training in the use of our firearms. Also, if you do, how much more effective do you think the training made you if you have to defend yourself? I know that before my first class, I thought I was pretty much good to go. Boy, was I wrong. I didn’t even know how much I didn’t know. Yeah, I knew how to shoot, but I didn’t really know how to fight! I believe my readiness quotient is now three or four times what it was and I know I still have a long way to go. If you have never had any formal training where you are taught to fight with a weapon, or had any lately, I would really suggest you look into it. Not only will you learn a ton, but you will most likely have fun and possibly meet some like minded folks. Sounds like you've had training with John Farnam as well. I've only trained about 80 hours as a student this year. 
Not bad for a lowly civilian. Of course, I teach courses as well... I know that before my first class, I thought I was pretty much good to go. Boy, was I wrong.
Isn't that the truth. Until you've taken a class or two, you don't even have a clue what you didn't know! Halffast also makes the good point that it's a great place to meet good, like-minded people. There's more than a nugget of truth to that as well. John |
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I'm limited to the standard military fare - MOUT, IMT, CQM ranges, stuff like that, but I don't really consider that decent training for anything outside of the military. As mentioned, it's mostly geared towards team-oriented tactics, though some of the IMT and other stuff is relevant. Since getting out I am definitely looking at getting some civilian classes in. Also, these are perishable skills that need to be refreshed. I already feel myself slowing down, and I've been out less than a year.
So damn expensive though... How to do it on a budget? I also need to find a better range, all the ones I know about here are bench-type ranges for plinking only. I'm also good on guns for now, I think. Priorities now are stocking up on ammo (does one ever have enough? No, I think not...) and getting into a few classes over the next couple years. |
| I've done quite a bit of firearms training. I'd really like to take a wilderness survival class, and some type of emergency medical class. My medical knowledge is pretty basic, and something i'd really like to supplement. I feel pretty confident in the firearms department...not so much on the other two I mentioned. I've got a lot of wilderness experience, but I always go into it with a full pack and lots of gear. I'd be pretty handicapped if all I had on me was a knife and a lighter. |
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I have been shooting since I was 12 and considered myself a pretty good shooter. Not great, but good. I took a handgun class with Cumberland Tactics (Randy Cain) and found out just what I didn't know. Moving, laying down, kneeling, upside down, bad breath distance, etc.
Best thing I ever did, and really helped put everything together. |
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I guess i should have added I have been to a couple classes, and learn something new everytime.
Tactical Response Fighting Rifle Fighting Pistol Advanced Fighting Pistol HRCC-Shooting I have only been to classes through Tactical response so I am a bit biased but the classes were WELL worth the money. |
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Some trainers will allow you to take thier course with a 10/22. Also, there are several 'fighting with a shotgun' courses available.Unfortunately I have neither the money nor arms (10/22 and 12 gauge only. =/) Maybe in a few years (if we're still around...) I'll be able to afford it. Yeah, only problem is again the money. I'll eventually take a tactical shotgun course, and hopefully I'll have my AR built soon and can take a tactical carbine course. |
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I try to take one pistol and one carbine class a year and shoot ACTS matches the rest of the year.
Just took a 2 day armorer's course. Still have some gaps..did TKD for a few years, but its not very useful..have been meaning to work on some Krav Maga but haven't gotten there yet. |
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Army ROTC...I know most will mock, No offense but... I've had 4 years of Army ROTC, at the Nation's oldest private military college, we had all kinds of 'high speed' instructors, including tabbed cadets and our own rappelling tower, MILEs gear etc. I've also gone through Basic and AIT. None of that compares to what you'll learn in a good 3 day carbine course - it's not even close. The other thing I'd point out the Army teaches tactics that are meant to be used as a team. What happens when (in 99.999% of the real world violent crime situations) you're on your own. Again a good carbine class or two will teach you the individual tactics you'll need to know. Oh, I definitely plan on doing as many courses as I can, I hope my post didn't come off as arrogant as if I was ready to take on a squad because I did MOUT with some 75th Rangers.  As soon as I have the expendable money I plan on it, there's just other things on my priority list. (Right now, trying to buy a house, and move out of our crime ridden neighborhood) I was just trying to say I have at least something, which is more than John Doe, slayer of frosted donuts, who resides in his parents' garage.
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Quoted: Most excellent, too many young soldiers (and cadets) seem to think that because they have a bit of Army training that is all there is to it. Good to see soldier like you that are thinking ahead. Oh, I definitely plan on doing as many courses as I can, I hope my post didn't come off as arrogant as if I was ready to take on a squad because I did MOUT with some 75th Rangers. As soon as I have the expendable money I plan on it, there's just other things on my priority list. (Right now, trying to buy a house, and move out of our crime ridden neighborhood) I was just trying to say I have at least something, which is more than John Doe, slayer of frosted donuts, who resides in his parents' garage. |
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I've taken some firearms training courses (pistol and carbine). I consider them extremely valuable. Classes are a must IMO and are a real eye opener. I'm probably 3 fold better than I was for taking them. I'd like to take more but money has been tight the past year or two.
I'm with Shadowangel on the wilderness survival courses. I feel pretty much at home outdoors (with my kit) but I've never taken any kind of formal courses. I've been doing some research on survival classes and it's difficult to gauge schools by looking at info online / websites. I've found that classes seem to fall in two categories: You've either got to be an Elite Delta Seal with very deep pockets (extremely expensive / out of the country and seem solely SF/Military driven) or you'll need to prepare yourself for dealing with hippies and holding hands while singing Kumbaya for a week. It's proven very difficult to find a course that seems like a practical, no BS course instructed by competent instructors. The very few survival classes that aren't at either extreme seem to be taught by instructors with questionable experience. Anyone have any suggestions? I'm in South East Texas but I'd be willing to travel anywhere within a days drive (10 hours) to take a good no BS course. Edited to clarify "questionable experience": not questionable experience (no experience listed) and the course curriculum is extremely basic outdoor stuff guaged for someone who's going on their first hiking trip. |
Took a course with the some drug enforcement officers about 4 years ago ,pistol and carbine . nothing other then that except for staying in a holiday express time to time. Just found out about the appleseed shoots , going try to make the one in buckinham county Va or yanceyville NC in sept or oct with my FAL to see if I can improve my marksmanship .
ETA: Sad note Larry Vickers does classes in my town several times a year. |
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For those who can't train on a regular basis you may want to try 3 gun shoots. This is what I do and it helps me focus on my week points . It only costs me 10 bucks and about 70 rounds of ammo. For 5 months a year they do them at night and always with diffrent senarios so it stays fresh. Just run the course like your training and don't focus on the score. It makes me cringe everytime I see one of these guys run the course and leave there light on through the whole thing. You can even tell when they are reloading because the light is shooting straight up like a beacon. Also you may meet people there that live close to you that could act as an extra team member in a SHTF event or just a conveniant shooting partner with similar interest that can keep you motivated.
I will say it again don't get caught up in the score just compete like you train and train like you fight. Keep it fun so you will continue this for a long period and this does NOT take the of formal training so take training when avaible. I would like to recomend Front Sight if you can get one of those free training classes. How can you beat 4 days of training for just the cost of ammo? |
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I have the basic military rifle training so I would say I am pretty capable with my carbine .. Sorry my friend, if all you have is BRM, you don't realize how far behind the curve BRM is. I have more than BRM, everyone in the military does today. I know I am behind the curve that I want to be at, that is why I sated being capable and not on an A team. |
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Training is about 40% of what I do here at my department.
Most that is firearms training. I enjoy updating the troops and thinking up realistic scenario's for them to shoot. The last class was just a couple of weeks ago, a night shoot, by themselves, then with their partner. The live fire shoothouse has 3 bd, 1 bth, 1-kit. 1-lvgrm. They cleared the house first with their lights on their handguns, then with their rifles. Then again as a team. After that, with night vision. They all had a blast and it was good training. In a couple of weeks, they get to do the "Gong show" with their pistols.  
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I have the basic military rifle training so I would say I am pretty capable with my carbine .. Sorry my friend, if all you have is BRM, you don't realize how far behind the curve BRM is. A friend an I were talking about our BRM training at Fort Lostinthewoods . We agreed that we often shoot more rounds in a single range trip now then we got to shoot in our entire time in basic . I must admit I'm sadly lacking in the training department as of late . I have some things I have to catch up on first ,but I'm pushing training closer to #1 . Being in an accident and getting our car totaled really set us back. 
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I'm actually finishing up another live tissue medical course right now (includes TCCC skills with the focus on more advanced techniques...Far beyond CLS).
Fortunately our OPSEC hasn't been compromised yet.... The cops haven't had another leak telling PETA where we are at again. There is no substitute for good training - whether its weapons, medical or other skills. Most worthwhile skills are perishable to some degree. The more you know, the more you will forget. Not everything can be retained. Necessary skills requiring formal training should be regularly re-visited in order to gain new knowledge, review retained skills and remember lost ones. |
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Lots of it. I am almost to the point that I would rather go to another class than buy another gun...... I'll spend more on classes and ammo for classes than new guns in the second half of this year. Well at least you're allowing for some used guns in there!
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I am like a lot of you guys. I have been shooting since I was 5 years old, and grew up knowing how to shoot. So I thought. I knew I had to address the training issue in my personal life, but it took me 'til June of last year to get my head out of my rear and find a local trainer (MDFI - highly recommended). This broke the cycle of "It's easier to push 'purchase' on a cool-guy gear order off the Internet than it is to get out and test the stuff in a class"
But Thank God I did. I've taken four courses - Carbine I twice (the first time was jarring enough I wanted to take it again) last year, and Handgun I and II this year. I firmly plan to take one or two classes per year to keep up on it. Halffast you sound like I did after last June. I had a lot of cobwebs and square-range junk blown out of my head, and replaced with solid, real-world learnings. And NO amount of watching DVDs will get you to that level. I'd watched Kelly McCann's entire Crucible DVD set probably 4 times (including the carbine one) and yeah, it helped a bit, but the second you get all kitted up and have the instructor walk up and make suggestions to improve your shooting - that WORK - you realize that stuff is passive. You need active instruction. |
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I am signed up for one of the Appleseed shoots later this fall in Indiana. Very stoked about it. I have been through some 'basic' M4 classes in the past and learned a fair amount. But nothing that really focused on the markmanship angle the way that I expect to at Appleseed.
Over the years I've taken a number of competition oriented handgun classes on my own dime. And had a few combat oriented classes paid for by the office which were very helpful. More on my own dime will happen, it is just a matter of finding the funds at the moment. |
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Great pics, Templar! Thanks for sharing them.
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I am like a lot of you guys. I have been shooting since I was 5 years old, and grew up knowing how to shoot. So I thought. I knew I had to address the training issue in my personal life, but it took me 'til June of last year to get my head out of my rear and find a local trainer (MDFI - highly recommended). This broke the cycle of "It's easier to push 'purchase' on a cool-guy gear order off the Internet than it is to get out and test the stuff in a class" But Thank God I did. I've taken four courses - Carbine I twice (the first time was jarring enough I wanted to take it again) last year, and Handgun I and II this year. I firmly plan to take one or two classes per year to keep up on it. Halffast you sound like I did after last June. I had a lot of cobwebs and square-range junk blown out of my head, and replaced with solid, real-world learnings. And NO amount of watching DVDs will get you to that level. I'd watched Kelly McCann's entire Crucible DVD set probably 4 times (including the carbine one) and yeah, it helped a bit, but the second you get all kitted up and have the instructor walk up and make suggestions to improve your shooting - that WORK - you realize that stuff is passive. You need active instruction. If there's one big thing I learned, it's what you said above. There is a world of difference between shooting a firearm and fighting with one! Even the IDPA shooting I did that I thought was great practice (I'm not knocking IDPA) can reinforce bad habits. |
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Training for other things like hiding, overland travel, wilderness navigation, and of course firearms can all be incorporated.
I wish i could train more. I spend at least a weekend every other month out in the woods trying to hone my skills. Even set up shooting scenerios with different distances, terrain, and sized targets. My favorite is to set up about 15 random paper plates on our hunting lease during the off season, then grab my BOB and head to the woods friday after work. As I see the plates I have to drop down, draw or shoulder my weapon and make the shot. Then I evaluate the shot to see if I got a hit. Also like to check my surroundings to make sure I chose good cover to shoot from or if there would be better choices next time. I would like to take some "pro" classes someday too. |