Posted: 6/27/2009 8:32:52 PM EDT
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Anyone have one of these? In the next year or so I am going to have to replace my AC unit. I am thinking that if the cap and trade passes the cost for electric will go up a lot.
Just starting to look into this, but with the 30% tax credit and my electric company will give me a $750 per ton rebate. I have about 3500 sq ft home and I currently heat with Propane price of the propane is $1.59 per gal now, but it was up to $2.50 last winter. Any chance I can run this with a smaller generator? Just thinking I can stay cool if the power goes out. I already have propane gas logs for winter if the power goes down. |
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It will probably pay for you to get the GSHP. Your house is big enough to take advantage of the cost savings.
What do you mean by a small generator? You will still need a generator and it will have to be a decent size....I'm going to guess about a 5500 running/8500 starting minimum. Might need a bigger one. If you have a tractor, you can get a PTO generator and run the AC off it when you want to. Then have a smaller generator for the times when you just need to cool your refrigerator and freezer and run some lights. |
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When we were installing a system into an estate on the eastern shore of Maryland (1998 +/-) the local building codes said we had to pump the return water back into the ground no less than 500 linear feet from the well head, and at an equal depth. I disremember how we were supposed to prove that the water was as 'clean' as we got it, but I'm sure there was something in there that was as expensive. The point is that this isn't something useful for townships or neighborhoods, and from the reading I was doing on system development as late as 2006 there were going to be so many local ordinance fingers in the pie that getting a straight answer that was good for longer than 24 hours was going to be a deal breaker. Personally, (if the local regs could be kept simple, and you could be sure nobody was going to poison the watertable by pumping chemicals from the heat exchangers into it), I love the concept. But we saw these systems as an investment that was eventually doomed to be closed down by local regs and neighbors doing stupid things. YMMV, I stopped being up on developments in the field years ago. My info is way outta date, but my opinions are my own. Quoted: Anyone have one of these? In the next year or so I am going to have to replace my AC unit. I am thinking that if the cap and trade passes the cost for electric will go up a lot. Just starting to look into this, but with the 30% tax credit and my electric company will give me a $750 per ton rebate. I have about 3500 sq ft home and I currently heat with Propane price of the propane is $1.59 per gal now, but it was up to $2.50 last winter. Any chance I can run this with a smaller generator? Just thinking I can stay cool if the power goes out. I already have propane gas logs for winter if the power goes down. |
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Quoted: When we were installing a system into an estate on the eastern shore of Maryland (1998 +/-) the local building codes said we had to pump the return water back into the ground no less than 500 linear feet from the well head, and at an equal depth. I disremember how we were supposed to prove that the water was as 'clean' as we got it, but I'm sure there was something in there that was as expensive. The point is that this isn't something useful for townships or neighborhoods, and from the reading I was doing on system development as late as 2006 there were going to be so many local ordinance fingers in the pie that getting a straight answer that was good for longer than 24 hours was going to be a deal breaker. Personally, (if the local regs could be kept simple, and you could be sure nobody was going to poison the watertable by pumping chemicals from the heat exchangers into it), I love the concept. But we saw these systems as an investment that was eventually doomed to be closed down by local regs and neighbors doing stupid things. YMMV, I stopped being up on developments in the field years ago. My info is way outta date, but my opinions are my own. Quoted: Anyone have one of these? In the next year or so I am going to have to replace my AC unit. I am thinking that if the cap and trade passes the cost for electric will go up a lot. Just starting to look into this, but with the 30% tax credit and my electric company will give me a $750 per ton rebate. I have about 3500 sq ft home and I currently heat with Propane price of the propane is $1.59 per gal now, but it was up to $2.50 last winter. Any chance I can run this with a smaller generator? Just thinking I can stay cool if the power goes out. I already have propane gas logs for winter if the power goes down. They make closed-circuit GSHP now.. One hole, or one trench... Copper pipe/coil circuit goes in... No water quality concerns, simply because nothing is released into the environment... |
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Quoted: Anyone have one of these? In the next year or so I am going to have to replace my AC unit. I am thinking that if the cap and trade passes the cost for electric will go up a lot. Just starting to look into this, but with the 30% tax credit and my electric company will give me a $750 per ton rebate. I have about 3500 sq ft home and I currently heat with Propane price of the propane is $1.59 per gal now, but it was up to $2.50 last winter. Any chance I can run this with a smaller generator? Just thinking I can stay cool if the power goes out. I already have propane gas logs for winter if the power goes down. Cap & Trade will fuck over the price of propane, and any other hydrocarbon fuels too... |
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I have a geo-thermal system. basically a closed loop system. I have 12 wells that are 165 feet deep. Two heat pumps and 4 exchangers. The heat part runs much cheaper then my buddies homes that run gas/oil. The a/c is almost free. It just pumps the water around and blows air.
The down side is the upfront expense, the wells are expensive. As long as electricity doesn't go out, I am ok. But the generator idea, I don't think so. I know that my heat exchangers pull around 100 amps at start up for a very brief time. The electric company had to put time delays on mine because when both kicked on at the same time, it turned out the lights. They also put it a dedicated 400 amp service to them. They guy from the electric company told me that most city blocks do not have the service my house has. Just a word of advice, check you electric power supply before you get to deep into a geo-system. You may need to upgrade it also, adding expense. |
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My parents have a 5 ton geothermal system, heating and cooling a house larger than yours. Exactly what size system you need will depend on how efficient your house is energy wise, and the larger systems WILL draw a lot of power. You will still come out ahead vs Propane.
My parents are able to run their 5 ton unit with a 10kw solar array, but I'm pretty sure the transient at the startup of the motors is well beyond that. A PTO generator could do the job as long as you are in the small to midsize units. Around here, it's 1 (closed loop) well per ton of heating. |
| I sell this type of equipment to dealers and contractors, GS is only cost effective during new construction a hot water loop is less money after the fact , and you do realize that all these "credits" are not actually cash to you right???, you claim them on your income tax for the previous year...... |
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Quoted:
Anyone have one of these? In the next year or so I am going to have to replace my AC unit. I am thinking that if the cap and trade passes the cost for electric will go up a lot. Just starting to look into this, but with the 30% tax credit and my electric company will give me a $750 per ton rebate. I have about 3500 sq ft home and I currently heat with Propane price of the propane is $1.59 per gal now, but it was up to $2.50 last winter. Any chance I can run this with a smaller generator? Just thinking I can stay cool if the power goes out. I already have propane gas logs for winter if the power goes down. You can still qualify for the 30% tax credit if you simply replace the existing AC unit with an EnergyStar rated one. Also remember that the tax credit is capped at $1500. If I were you I'd investigate upgrading from AC to AC/Heat Pump. This is what we did for our 2700 sf home. We now have the flexibility of using the heat pump or burning wood in the winter when the power goes out. I'm planning to install geothermal AC/HP in the next home, but that will be new construction on land we already own so it's not that much more expensive than other HVAC systems. |
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On my second and shopping for my third.
Its actually one of the few things I decided on I can't be more pleased with. It's saved me around $1,200 a year compared to natural gas and when you figure in replacement cost that's about $4,000 over ten years. You have to figure that in because unlike AC units these things run winter and summer so have a life of about twelve years. They have their issues though. Efficiency greatly reduces below around ten degrees on standard units. The water and below ground units are typically sold in areas where prolonged cold spells are common. Areas like here in TN, the standard above ground is the most common. Its a cold heat. I guess is the best way to describe it. It makes your home more like a office building where the temp is steady but you won't be standing over the registers to get a fast heat up. Some people freak over that but you get use to it. The cost of the standard units was really reasonable, however to keep the world green, the fed has now changed the SEER ratings from 10 to 12. That ups the cost about 30%. More EPA issues, they're changing freons again and the new freon is much more pressure. Some companies have changed their coils, some haven't, and its being debated whether those that haven't will last as long as before. I have a 3,000 sq/ft well insulated home with about 1/4 below ground and use a 3 ton unit. Because of this efficiency thing the air handlers have auxiliary heat strips or basic eclectic strip heat. Mine's way too much strip. I don't use it but fire up my kero-towers on those really cold spells. I'm being forced by the regs to go with a new handler this time around and will most definitely go with a smaller rated aux strip. Mines so bad, I don't even think you can buy one now with that high a Kw rating, Because of this auxiliary heat aspect, thermostats and how they operate is a big deal. I way prefer a manual option on the aux heat. I had a full auto for idiots and hated it. Usually when its auto kicking in that aux heat is the middle of the night when you don't need it. For my climate, I guess I don't mind getting up in the morning a few mornings going, "It's a little cold in here." then turning on the aux heat, turning it off when we all leave. That type manual control does mean you have to stay on top of the weather but then I do that anyway. Though mine is still ticking along just fine, I'm already looking into a replacement. Waiting till these things crap out limits your options and reduces your time for research. My family just put one in the old home house in the Ohio valley. I don't know if that was wise at all. Its a very old drafty house, the climate is on the edge of a standard heat pump, and though its not costing more than the previous gas heat, its most definitely not saving that much either. New windows have been put in and plans for insulation. IMHO, Good insulation is key to any heat system but even more critical to heat pumps if you are looking for an operating cost savings. Tax incentives, I personally consider almost a joke. The incentives are only on the most expensive units and whether it saves you anything really depends on how much money you make, the tax savings, as compared to operation cost compared to other heating methods, and replacement timing. I use 12 years as my replacement timing. That's conservative but better that than the alternative. If I can give anyone major advice its look at the total installation, operation, and maintenance cost as it relates to your area not just your monthly bill. Compare those expensive options and find out what exactly is your payback, the break even point compared to other methods. I've seriously seen people put in units so expensive, I'm convinced they won't see a payback in their lifetime and when you consider most of these financed it into their homes so paying interest for 15-30 years, wow. Nice I guess to pay a premium to keep the world green. Hope this helps. Tj |
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big thread with pix:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=139&t=834021 |
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Quoted:
Anyone have one of these? In the next year or so I am going to have to replace my AC unit. I am thinking that if the cap and trade passes the cost for electric will go up a lot. Just starting to look into this, but with the 30% tax credit and my electric company will give me a $750 per ton rebate. I have about 3500 sq ft home and I currently heat with Propane price of the propane is $1.59 per gal now, but it was up to $2.50 last winter. Any chance I can run this with a smaller generator? Just thinking I can stay cool if the power goes out. I already have propane gas logs for winter if the power goes down. Just my personal feelings...... Instead of wondering how one might cope with the most disasterous piece of legislation ever to be passed in our countrys history, I would recommend calling all senator's and offering your full and compleate objections (stopping just short of threats of rebellion and death)..... They need to hear from EVERY AMERICAN that this is BS and a yes vote means thier job... America was founded by an armed, informed, and active electorate.. If you are not all three, you are sheeple too.... just my .02 |
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I've designed a few commercial GSHP systems - all were closed loop systems using vertical wells. Vertical wells typically allow more constant heat exchange over the year. Loops in horizontal trenches see greater temperature swings over the year, but they may be cheaper to install if you have the room (~1/2 acre for an average house per ASHRAE.) In vertical loop systems the cooling and heating loads over the year should be somewhat balanced (a fair comparison can be made between heating and cooling degree days for your area). If the loads are not balanced, the wellfield may need to be oversized or wells spread farther apart to accomodate the difference. (In a cooling dominated load, the wellfield could overheat over time - in a heating dominated load, the loop may freeze or operate below freezing if some type of antifreeze is used. In either case, the system could become less efficient).
Remember that the soil moisture and type in your particular area can make a big difference. For a preliminary estimate for a commercial system a reasonable estimate is 200-250' per ton (actual requirements may range from 150-450' / ton) - assuming vertical wells spaced 15-20' on center, medium efficiency soil, and polyethelene pipe. Overall, GSHP systems can be very efficient and last a long time, but the main stumbling block is the cost. Hope this helps. Martin |